Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
Recently added a bathroom and closet to a rental property - work was mediocre (largely due to GC subcontracting out to someone shady) but everything got done and works - tenants move in this weekend.
Here's the dilemma, I (stupidly) Ieft a family heirloom quilt hand-made by my great -grandmother draped on a chair in the living room and the workers decided to use it to clean up waste in bathroom install. I came in one day to find it sodden on floor of shower. The GC then took the quilt to get it washed.
I paid for half of the job up front. They finished the last small touches last week and now want the remaining half. My quilt was returned to me in terrible shape - they CUT parts out that I guess were too badly stained. My mother has a conniption every time I mention this situation. This is something that cannot be fixed.
So, while I see that they did the work, they also took and damaged something of mine that is irreplaceable. Would I be justified to deduct a portion of their payment in compensation for the destruction of my quilt?
I'm leaning towards paying them since they did do the work BUT am curious how others have handled situations involving damage to personal property?
Specialist · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2016 · 841 posts · 480 votes
9y
I think this is fairly simple. A sub or a GC should not use any materials that aren't specified for the project. The quilt was an item onsite that was not something related to the project. Good sub, bad sub, none of that matters, it goes straight to the GC. GC should have known what was onsite and should have given you the professional courtesy of setting the item aside or notifying you about its presence.
Really none of that even matters. It comes down to contract. What are specifications for damages within your contract? This solves it. Definitely, the GC is responsible. The question is "what is your contract language on damages and penalties. " If you don't have something in your contract regarding damages, liability, and penalties, then you should add it to your contract immediately and it will be there for the next project.
I feel for you, but I also think this is one of those times when you look at your contract as a living document that is always evolving. This is how independent businesses get better and evolve. It is sometimes very painful.
In our hearts we all know the item should not have been left behind and the contractor is only partially responsible. On the other hand - rest assured everyone reading this thread feels very bad for you and your mom. It is a sad story - sorry it happened to you.
Investor · Wellington, KS · Member since 2016 · 256 posts · 188 votes
9y
I would deduct a fair market value of the quilt from the last payment. Remember that fair market value does not include sentimental value. Also, both contractors probably have mechanics lien rights that could encumber your property for the amount of their claim.
You should review the applicable state mechanics lien law.
This is not legal advice as I am not a licensed attorney, consult independent local counsel.
As @Victor N. says, deducting fair market value of the quilt would seem appropriate. However, the fair market value of a used quilt is likely not much. It might be best to chalk this one up to a learning lesson. Not worth withholding the money and causing legal action.
Contractors are a big part of anyone's business when they get involved in real estate. If you have bad ones, they'll wreck you. If you have good ones, they'll make you lots of money.
However, I even have good ones that do really stupid stuff sometimes. Have to take the good with the bad because it's usually worse with someone else.
Specialist · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2016 · 841 posts · 480 votes
9y
I think this is fairly simple. A sub or a GC should not use any materials that aren't specified for the project. The quilt was an item onsite that was not something related to the project. Good sub, bad sub, none of that matters, it goes straight to the GC. GC should have known what was onsite and should have given you the professional courtesy of setting the item aside or notifying you about its presence.
Really none of that even matters. It comes down to contract. What are specifications for damages within your contract? This solves it. Definitely, the GC is responsible. The question is "what is your contract language on damages and penalties. " If you don't have something in your contract regarding damages, liability, and penalties, then you should add it to your contract immediately and it will be there for the next project.
I feel for you, but I also think this is one of those times when you look at your contract as a living document that is always evolving. This is how independent businesses get better and evolve. It is sometimes very painful.
In our hearts we all know the item should not have been left behind and the contractor is only partially responsible. On the other hand - rest assured everyone reading this thread feels very bad for you and your mom. It is a sad story - sorry it happened to you.
Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
9y
@Ritch Bonisa has caught a terrible case of correctness.
Whatever your contract says is what you should do.
You didn't have a contract, or it didn't specify what to do in a situation like this? I'm sorry - but odds are your used family heirloom is worth about $10 and a cup of coffee at the local flea market. It's your own fault for leaving it in the line of fire of a cheap contractor.
My contract is very, very explicit - the owner is to remove any and all items not used in assembly, and we are not responsible for damage or dirtiness to anything left on site. Construction is, by definition, a messy and HUMAN endeavour.
In rare situations (historic work with nonremovable appurtenances), I will write a stipulation that expressly says what we're going to do to limit the potential for damage, and how much liquidated damage we're accountable for.
For example, right now we're working on a historic home in Grant Park, and spent the first week bubble wrapping and plywood boxing out fireplaces, existing millwork, taking down historic fixtures and packaging them up, etc... the owner paid us to do so, and our contract has a limit for liability for damage to existing fixtures or millwork. And yes - all this work was an additional line item on our bid. Client is happy, we're happy, and we've taken every reasonable precaution to make sure that nothing gets damaged.
Chalk this one up to a lesson learned - clean the work area ALL THE WAY OUT before letting a contractor in there.
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
9y
Mark Gallagher you are very right. I'm grateful that the work turned out ok and have learned my lesson about leaving anything personal on a job site - I've had pretty good luck in the past. Will keep looking for my team in ATL. We have a great team for our MI properties so I've gotten soft.
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
9y
Ritch Bonisa thanks for your kind words, much appreciated. My great grandmother was a seamstress and her quilts are mini works of art, made with scraps of family members clothing, hard to explain...we've been offered hundreds for her early 19th century ones. This was a less complicated baby blanket of sorts that she made when I was born - kicking myself for leaving it in the house. It never occurred to me that they would go into another part of the house to use/damage something unrelated to the job. This wasn't a gutted dump, this was a move in ready house converting a laundry to a bathroom...
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
9y
Aaron McGinnis we did have a contract but it was theirs, not mine. I will review the damages clause when I get home and be sure to check/add a clause like that in the future. This project has been ripe with learning opportunities, eye roll, lol
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
9y
Victor Nelson good point about fair market value - there really isn't a value on this item so I will just have to chalk this up to a rookie error. We're on property #7 so I guess I should count myself lucky that nothing has been damaged before when I've had people working in fully furnished properties...
#lessonlearned
Specialist · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2016 · 841 posts · 480 votes
9y
@Ericka G. That's what I kind of thought. It actually makes it worse that your GC didn't give you a heads up and be more proactive in the situation. Hopefully, your GC will want to work with you again in the future and will be generous in the rectification of this matter.
Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
Ericka Grant most contracts residential wise doesn't stipulate anything on damages. On contracts like Aaron McGinnis and the contracts I sign (government entities) have stipulations that anything we damage will be restored to original condition, BUT we need to factor those in our bids, I charge at least 3k for protection of worksite in most cases, that means I cover everything with plastic or drop cloth. I am not going to pick my pocket for something that is not necessary, say I don't charge much when painting sidewalks vs that of doing a city server room remodel. That said, I go with Aaron on it will be your fault to not remove anything irreplaceable or of high value. We are rough tradesmen, regardless of who does it in construction, try to compare our worktruck to your car. I don't believe the GC owes you anything but a new quilt, if that. Final cleaning also is usually broom clean, no deep cleaning or swiffing of floors, etc.
Tunnel Hill, GA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 4 votes
9y
@Ericka Grant First, I am really really sorry to hear your story. Not everyone has family heirlooms passed down like yours and I can empathize this the sentimental value attached to it.
Could've, Should've, Would've are unfortunately impossibilities. Things we cannot change any more. But lets break it down.
First thing I see is lack of Leadership. The GC is ultimately 100% responsible for what happens during the job. How the customer's property is treated as well as the processes and procedures that need to take place when entering a customer's property. So the GC needs to own up to what the Subs did. Ultimately is his reputation in question on what happened at your home. We all agree that the item is simply irreplaceable and the sentimental value vs the market value are no where near each other.
So what I would looking for is attitude. By this I mean, "what is the attitude taken by the GC when provided with all the facts about the situation." Yes, facts, please understand that separating facts from emotion may be hard, but they need to know what happened. Then although they may never really be a way to rectify the events completely, my main concern would to find out what they are made of. Their honesty, integrity, character, etc.
Why is that important? Because grandma's heirloom may show you whether or not this is the kind of person you want to partner with again. Let's find a way to honor the sacrifice of the heirloom. Will the GC steps up to the plate to really do what they can? If he does, he will always be sure you are taken care of above and beyond in any future projects. (if you can forgive him for what happened) If he doesn't, then well, his reputation will catch up with him and this may have saved you from many more "painful" experiences with them.
Should you have left it there... honestly, without really knowing the extent of the work, the location of the chair, etc then it is anyone's guess and opinion. However, I am back to Leadership and how they run their business... and laying out the same expectation for the sub. Still, your property is your property... if they lack materials to do their job, they should drive to a store to pick them up or call someone to bring it to them. Professionally speaking... when a contractor comes to your home they should have what they need to complete the job. Your personal belongings should never be used with out prior consent and agreement.
Could you have avoided this? Well, I am sure you have a list of ways you will make sure nothing like it ever happens again.
All in all, you should pay him no matter the outcome. Keep your integrity intact but do look into the contract as well. Legally, I don't know there is much you can do to amend what was done. But you can present the facts to the GC, ask them "So what should we do about it?" then fight the urgency to say anything else and let them answer. You may be surprise what they are willing to do if you ask that question and silently await an answer.
This may always be a sour memory, but you can at least make the best of what you learn through it.
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
9y
Leo Morales thanks for weighing in and for understanding. I did end up paying the contractor because they did the work as requested. I shouldn't have left the quilt in the house - lesson learned. I don't hold any hard feelings towards the contractor but I wouldn't necessarily work with them again or recommend them either. We'll see how things shake out now that tenants are living there - so far the new bathroom is working well...fingers crossed that no other issues emerge.
Tunnel Hill, GA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 4 votes
9y
@Erica Grant Thank you for the update. I train contractors in the HVAC, Plumbing and Electrical industries. We work on enhancing the customer's experience to really reach the goal: Happy Loyal Customer's for Life...
Your scenario is 1000% against what we train them on.
They respect, go above and beyond and leave the properties as if they were never there. We teach craftsmanship and to take pride on who they are.
So your post really hit home for me because we are working hard at changing the industry so people like you never have experiences like that.
Glad things with the tenant are going well so far.
Rental Property Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 123 votes
9y
Heard about this on the podcast and just wanted to post here (mainly to make me feel better) I would not continue doing business with this GC and/or the sub that did this. I can understand the GC may not be at fault depending on the situation but I would never again hire whoever the person was that decided to grab a quilt off of a chair to clean up any mess let alone a toilet mess.
Seriously, you have to be dumber than a sack of rocks to do something like this and I can only imagine working with whoever did this will produce noting but pain for you in the future.