Let's talk about nicotine

Rehabbing & House Flipping
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Let's talk about nicotine

Mindy JensenPro Member
BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes

I bought a smoker's house. Prior to sale, they painted all the walls that didn't have wallpaper on them. 

Painted, not CLEANED then painted. Paint is starting to bubble up in places, I assume due to nicotine. 

Has anyone ever dealt with this without just replacing all the drywall in the house?

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Jill F.
Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
6y
Usually it's the tar not the nicotine that is the problem. zinnser bin shellac primer. My painter recommended it. It actually gave me a headache to use until it dried but it did get rid of all the odor and stains.
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  • Lauren C.
    Investor · North Augusta, SC · Member since 2020 · 42 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    I have heard fantastic things about Kilz from a couple investors in my area.  It would be worth a try before replacing walls or floors.  

    https://www.kilz.com/primer/ki...

    2Reply
  • Don Meinke
    Investor · Northeast, NE · Member since 2015 · 258 posts · 83 votes
    6y

    My guess is it isn’t cig smoke.  More than likely a cannabis residue.  Is it on the upper walls up by the ceiling?

    1Reply
  • James Dietter
    Member since 2020 · 5 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    I purchased a house that was full of urine and smoke smells. I tried Kilz. It worked alright, but it was white vinegar that did the trick of getting rid of the smells. I put white vinegar in sprayer and sprayed the area several times. Smells can be stubborn. Good luck.

    5Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Don Meinke:

    My guess is it isn’t cig smoke.  More than likely a cannabis residue.  Is it on the upper walls up by the ceiling?

    Yes. And we're in CO... 

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  • Pat L.
    Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    It's pervasive!!!

    We had one that they had smoked in for 5 years when we inherited them. They had a 12 month & 2 yr old in this apartment & they rarely went outside.

    BUT they did pay on-time & were very quiet in a spaced out way. They moved to low income housing paid for by you & I about 3 months after we took possession.

    The window pic shows the residue that was impossible to remove so I replaced all the windows. The blurred pic is smoke residue on the walls around a large pic they had hanging in the bedroom.

    Regardless of what we did we could not get rid of the smell. So I took down all the drywall & had to toss the insulation behind it because it was rife with the stench of smoke residue.

    2Reply
  • Jill F.
    Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y
    Usually it's the tar not the nicotine that is the problem. zinnser bin shellac primer. My painter recommended it. It actually gave me a headache to use until it dried but it did get rid of all the odor and stains.
    7Reply
  • Account Closed
    Flipper/Rehabber · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 300 posts · 417 votes
    6y

    I second what @James Dietter said - white vinegar works amazingly well! It's my magic go-to for everything, and its fantastic at getting rid of smoke smells. 

    As for the bubbles, it sounds like nicotine is oozing (aka "off-gassing") through the paint. 

    Here are a few resources that may be helpful:

    https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/49877/how-can-we-prepare-a-nicotine-stained-room-for-painting-without-dangerous-chemic


    https://homeguides.sfgate.com/paint-over-heavy-smokers-walls-41037.html

    3Reply
  • Zach Sawyers
    Real Estate Broker · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Clean with ammonia and water and then seal it with white pigmented shellac. Most will use zinsser bin. It is expensive and has very high voc's but it will seal it in and you'll have no problems. Kilz oil or any other primer will eventually allow it to bleed back through. 

    0Reply
  • Scott Mac
    Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Pat L.:

    It's pervasive!!!

    We had one that they had smoked in for 5 years when we inherited them. They had a 12 month & 2 yr old in this apartment & they rarely went outside.

    BUT they did pay on-time & were very quiet in a spaced out way. They moved to low income housing paid for by you & I about 3 months after we took possession.

    The window pic shows the residue that was impossible to remove so I replaced all the windows. The blurred pic is smoke residue on the walls around a large pic they had hanging in the bedroom.

    Regardless of what we did we could not get rid of the smell. So I took down all the drywall & had to toss the insulation behind it because it was rife with the stench of smoke residue.

     If it's that awful in sticking to things, imagine what it does to your lungs.

    0Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    So the smell is gone, and the paint bubbling is just starting to appear about 9 months later. Thanks for the suggestions, luckily I have a LOT of places to text these different ideas.

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  • Sterling S.
    Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    Hi Mindy! I can give my personal experience. It sounds to me like Latex paint over Oil Paint. Thats the only time I've had "bubbles". Possibly some residue on the walls of another kind but that's only a theory. I've done a significant amount of painting and have personally never had bubbles from nicotine resin. The tell tale for nicotine with latex paint is the brown resin that seeps right through the latex paint ESPECIALLY in any area that will get humid (bathrooms and kitchens). The absolute worst smokers house I've done I had to spend the money and purchase Synthetic Shellac from Sherwin Williams. I still had to use 2 coats in some areas.
    What I do now and just did last week on my 4 unit is take a little dawn soap (emulsifying agent) and warm water and scrub the wall first (see picture). You should see a visible difference just from that. It's a lot of elbow grease but it makes all the difference. After washing the walls you can use Killz as primer to be safe, then paint. For the cost of Killz its a cheap safety net.

    In my experience latex based killz is a good primer and mold/odor blocker but it will not block out nicotine Especially in areas susceptible to humidity. Oil based killz may do better but washing the surface first has always been the most effective.

      * if you have wood trim around windows or floor it can absorb more nicotine resin than the walls so be sure to scrub once let dry, then do it again. Those have always been my trouble areas. If time is not a major factor maybe do a test area. If the nicotine is going to show back up it should do so pretty quickly.

    Hope that helps!! Much love for BP!

    2Reply
  • John Teachout
    Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Too bad they already painted it because that's going to be an issue. As Jill stated above, it's the tar in the cigarette smoke that's the issue. To do this properly, the whole house needs to be washed down with TSP. It's cheap, wear rubber gloves. This is mostly an elbow grease issue.

    After the surfaces have been washed down (twice if it's bad) with the TSP solution, then you need to prime with shellac based primer (best) or oil based primer (Kilz original). Do not use a latex primer such as Kilz 2. After the primer's on, just paint your topcoat with your favorite latex paint.

    The cabinets need to be cleaned inside and out. Flooring should all be replaced (unless it's tile, that can be cleaned).

    A house that has been heavily smoked in needs to get about $10k added to the rehab budget in my opinion.

    Now Mindy, in your situation where they've "covered" the problem, not sure what the solution is going to be. The paint just isn't going to stick to the tar residue so it's going to look crappy from here on out. Not sure there's any way to remove paint without tearing up the sheetrock.

    4Reply
  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Hmm. I have never heard of that from smoking.  It sounds like there wasn't a paint primer.

    0Reply
  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Mindy Jensen

    I bought a house last year that had heavy smoker tenants in for 40 years. Yes, 40. It was super nasty. Rehabbed the entire house myself, and there’s no smell of smoke anymore.

    The problem you now face is that it’s been painted over. As a painter/remodeling contractor, honestly you’re in a tough spot. If it’s been painted over, I see no point in scrubbing it down as you aren’t going to get to the root of the problem. From my knowledge at this point you have two choices- scrape/fix what’s peeling, primer over everything, and paint. Or Prime and hang 1/4” drywall and start from scratch.

    I had really good luck without using shellac. Shellac is nasty and expensive. I used a deck scrubber and Simple Green (purple heavy duty stuff). Scrubbed walls and ceilings, and then mopped the walls with a basic kitchen mop and clean water, wiped all corners by hand with rags. Primed everything with Zinsser Bulls Eye 123.

    Amazing results and no nasty Shellac.

    1Reply
  • Brian Ellis
    Rental Property Investor · South shore, MA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Most likely the paint bubbling is from the paint job. They must have used a waterbased paint as a primer, and then an oil based paint over that (at some point).

    0Reply
  • Jim K.
    Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    @Mindy Jensen

    Here we go.

    My second renovation in Greece was my girlfriend's 1-bedroom apartment. She had been away for many years before she assumed occupancy, and the tenant before the last one, let's call her Miss Calliope, had rented the place for fifteen years. Miss Calliope slept on her couch in the living room and used the bedroom of the apartment as her work area. She was a seamstress/dressmaker and did alterations for a number of local shops. Miss Calliope was a habitual three-pack-a-dayer of the cheapest Greek puffies.

    Early in her occupancy, Miss Calliope had had the bedroom painted in the cheapest possible paint, kalsomine, a powder paint product that went out of style here in the USA circa 1900, but due to its extremely low cost, was still available in Greece until 1980 or thereabouts. Again, After 20 years of residency, Miss Calliope left and a new tenant, let's call her Mrs. Aleka, came in. Mrs. Aleka hired two guys off the street to paint that bedroom beige, in modern latex paint. They did the whole apartment in two days, go, go, go, no wall prep necessary.

    Three years passed, Mrs. Aleka moved out, my girlfriend moved in.

    The bubbling and staining on the walls was so bad my girlfriend didn't like to turn the light on in the bedroom.

    After we decided I was going to renovate the place, I went in there with cardboard and protected the floor, then started trying to wash and scrape the walls. At the time, I knew nothing about TSP. I soon found that if I wet down the paint with regular all-purpose cleaner solution and waited a few minutes, I could take a razor scraper to the beige paint and it would come off in long strips. It took me two days to remove all the latex paint in the room off the walls and ceiling. I was left with heavily tar-streaked pink kalsomine under it.

    I had no idea how toxic this room was. I coughed A LOT in that room. A large part of my fascination with respirators stems from this experience. DO NOT WORK IN A TOBACCO TAR-STREAKED ROOM WITHOUT A RESPIRATOR FITTED WITH ORGANIC VAPOR CARTRIDGES.

    But eventually, I learned that a sponge mop and a lot of sprayed detergent was what I needed to remove most of the tar off the walls, followed by a lot more sprayed water to rinse. You can use a pump-up garden sprayer with a wand for this. TSP will work better for you than the detergents I used. After I was done cleaning and rinsing, I painted the walls and ceilings with an oil-based styrene acrylic primer named Monox. You should use Kilz Original Oil-Based Interior Primer (red can), in two coats. Keep wearing that respirator as you apply the primer, set up fans and open windows. Back then we used real mohair rollers -- they're incredibly expensive in this country nowadays. Use a number of cheap short-nap epoxy rollers to apply the Kilz to the walls and ceiling, and don't try to clean and reuse them.

    You should be fine with Kilz Original Oil-Based Interior Primer. If you're not for some crazy reason, switch to a shellac-based primer like B-I-N. As @Matt M. has indicated, it costs a lot of money and it's probably overkill, as @John Teachout has also mentioned.

    From there you paint the room in regular water-based paint. Let me add my voice to the chorus warning you about trying to work here with any water-based primer. I wouldn't even try Kilz Restoration in this situation.

    LAST TIME, wear a respirator and set up forced ventilation with fans during the cleaning and priming. Good luck, Mindy (and Carl).

    3Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    Thanks @Jim K. You are clearly the expert, want to come relive that experience? I'll buy the respirator cartridges!

    Sigh. This house needs a lot of work, I guess I'll just go add one more thing to the never-ending to-do list. 

    Thanks to all the suggestions, looks like I get to learn a new skill. 

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    0Reply
  • Jim K.
    Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Mindy Jensen:

    Thanks @Jim K. You are clearly the expert, want to come relive that experience? I'll buy the respirator cartridges!

    Sigh. This house needs a lot of work, I guess I'll just go add one more thing to the never-ending to-do list. 

    Thanks to all the suggestions, looks like I get to learn a new skill. 

    Dare we hope for a video on the 1500 Days channel?

    0Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Mindy Jensen:

    Thanks @Jim K. You are clearly the expert, want to come relive that experience? I'll buy the respirator cartridges!

    Sigh. This house needs a lot of work, I guess I'll just go add one more thing to the never-ending to-do list. 

    Thanks to all the suggestions, looks like I get to learn a new skill. 

    Dare we hope for a video on the 1500 Days channel?

    Look at your pic, you're all ready to go!

    [email protected]Podcast Guest on Show #261
    BiggerPockets
    1Reply
  • Joshua R.
    Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 87 posts · 42 votes
    6y

    I swear by white vinegar to kill tough odors. I also swear by having smoking clauses in my leases to mitigate against these kinds of issues. Zero tolerance for smoking inside! 

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Property Manager · NC · Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    I just had to turn a unit that had a 9 year heavy smoker and thought we would never get rid of the smell. I also highly recommend Kilz before painting (depending on how bad we are talking a second coat may be needed). We did a top to bottom multi-coat paint including doors and ceiling but this unit was a beast and the smell permeated through the drywall and every porous surface so we brought out the big guns. 

    We contacted our carpet cleaning company and rented a commercial OZONE machine for 5 days. We opened all cabinets and removed all outlet covers, door handles and fixtures as well as put two floor fans on high to circulate the air flow (also leave the fan running on the ac). That smell is HISTORY! I have tested multiple people who were unfamiliar with the unit's history and not one person was able to pick up any even trace of nicotine smell. I thought this unit would have to have all drywall torn out and replaced to be rid of the smell but in the end, a $240 rental and some floor fans saved the day in ways I couldn't even believe was possible.

    0Reply
  • Mari Tomkins
    Investor · Rockport, MA · Member since 2017 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    hi there, i saw your post and i just wanted to mention a product i recently found that really has worked wonders everywhere that i 've tried it  so far.. it may not help with the bubbling/peeling paint, but in terms of cleaning gunk off walls and helping with the odor, whether it's nicotine/tar, kitchen food/grease stains , or just dingy walls that haven't seen much cleaning action, i highly recommend it. i found it at home depot : https://www.homedepot.com/p/ZEP-18-oz-Foaming-Wall-Cleaner-ZUFWC18/206680570

    0Reply
  • Chris Reyes
    Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Hello Mindy Jensen! We just had to deal with the same thing. We are fixing up my mother in laws house. I believe she smoked inside for at least 7-8 years. Our painter applied a coat of oil based primer. Some places two coats. Then two coats of paint. He warned me if we didn't it would peel. It looks great now, we hope it sticks!!

    I hope your project works out! 

    0Reply
  • David NilesBusiness Member
    Property Manager · DeLand FL · Member since 2012 · 860 posts · 243 votes
    6y

    Paint is only going to be as good as the prep.  If you just go over the top of dirt, stains etc, they almost always find their way back out.  

    We had an apartment the landlord/owner lived in and smoked 2+packs a day for his entire life, passed away and our client purchased. Needless to say the walls,ceiling etc were a deep yellow. Used TSP ( trisodium phosphate, is a powder you mix with warm water and use to wipe down your walls before painting ) to wash EVERYTHING and the nasty yellow was running down. After that, didnt even need to go as strong as oil Kilz ( my favorite for real nasty stains and smells ) but a basic stain blocker primer worked fine. 2 quality paint topcoats and just like new with no return surprises.

    2Reply
  • Micah Tetzlaff
    Lender · Olympia, WA · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    6y
    Killz Oil base will do the trick well  make sure to have lots of air flowing and use respirator while you paint I was seeing stars after painting a closet with killz.
    0Reply
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