Knob and Tube with three breaker boxes in Little Rock Triplex

Knob and Tube with three breaker boxes in Little Rock Triplex

Bay Area, CA · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 43 votes

Hi , I am in closing stage of a triplex in Little Rock . It has three 100A breaker panels in the back of the home. 3rd party inspector noted knob and tube in the attic and highlighted it's risks. I've done a search on BP and have read a number of threads strongly recommending replacement of knob and tube so I am familiar with the safety concerns.

I contacted our insurance broker and to my surprise, the reply was " There is not a limitation on coverage for wiring. So there is no issue." So that's nice from a liability perspective but I am still concerned about tenant safety.

I confirmed seller will not replace knob and tube at their expense and their comment, "Per the electrician - there is active knob and tube wiring in the attic. It appears to be in good condition and he is not seeing any spots missing insulation. He is giving this a 9 rating for the condition of the wire on a 1-10 scale."

The 3rd party inspector also informed me that while K&T is a red flag, it's not illegal .

Additional context: We like the location and upgraded all the window AC units to one central unit for one unit and mini split systems to the other two units. So we really want to make this transaction work out.

My questions

1) With the breakers, is that considered a layer of safety in case of overload ?

2) If I don't replace K&T now, are there any additional precautionary measures I should take to further insulate the wiring?

3) Are there other questions I should be asking the electrician to ensure safety?

Below snippet from inspection report and photos of K&T in attic ,

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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
5y

If you've done the proper research, then you know that KT is not ok in any circumstances. It is a fire waiting to happen. It was never meant to handles today's loads, it now has been modified over the years, it now has possible contact with insulation, no grounds, Etc.....No Bueno.

If you really want this house and the seller refuses to help with it, then you are looking at doing it yourself.

https://mrelectric.com/blog/wh...

https://www.fusionkc.com/dange...

https://www.angi.com/articles/...

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    5y

    If you've done the proper research, then you know that KT is not ok in any circumstances. It is a fire waiting to happen. It was never meant to handles today's loads, it now has been modified over the years, it now has possible contact with insulation, no grounds, Etc.....No Bueno.

    If you really want this house and the seller refuses to help with it, then you are looking at doing it yourself.

    https://mrelectric.com/blog/wh...

    https://www.fusionkc.com/dange...

    https://www.angi.com/articles/...

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y

    @Warren A. One problem with Knob and Tube it is only two wire so there is no ground.

    The question becomes how much risk do you want to take. If the knob and tube is 9 out of 10 then the biggest risk to me is not having a ground. Worse is there could be grounded outlets that are not actually grounded. There are ways to fake out a  ground tester.

    If you want to fix the wiring you just have to estimate the cost and negotiate with the owner, or decide if it is worth absorbing that cost. 

  • Bay Area, CA · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 43 votes
    4y

    I got quote for K&T job for about $9.2K . Scope of work

    1. We will rewire all outlet
    2. We will rewire all Switches and lighting
    3. We will remove all Knob and tub in attic
    4. We will provide all new outlets and Switches

    Challenges #1 : The house is move in ready.  The walls are plaster in some rooms which means that they could possibly crumble and crack once you cut into them which could require more extensive repair and patchwork. Some of the plaster walls are heavily textured which would create additional challenges in trying to match. Some of the walls are paneling which could easily be replaced and painted, but that would most likely then require replacing full 4x8 sheets which means more paint work. Some of the ceilings are plaster and some have ceiling tiles which creates similar challenges once they are removed and patchwork required.   But until the K&T is removed and replaced with Romex, the contractor could only give me a rough estimate of $5K - 10K .


    Challenge #2:  There may be other issues that come up once this is permitted and the City becomes involved. While everything is now up to code and grandfathered as is, there may be additional things the City will require once rewiring. From what I understood from electrician, the City may require some adjustments to the new service boxes outside (junction box) to bring them to current code. They could also require Arc fault circuit interrupters. While these things were not required when the services were upgraded in the past, they will sometimes require if permits are pulled and rewiring is done.  This could be additional $2.5K to $5K ?

    We purchased at $209K , are financing this , and closed last week. Property is vacant now but is being marketed. So post purchase repairs would be $9.2K+$10K+5K (worst case scenario) = $24.2K or let's round it to $25K. So total price would increase from $209K to $234K. Aggregate rent expected to be $2025 per month. Initial down + closing --> $59K. Then add $25K --> $84K into this deal. Estimate $9K annual from rent after PITI + 10% buffer --> 10.7% . So even with electrical + restoration, still ok? The triplex is directly across from a hospital so we feel it has good long term potential.

    Also, my thinking is , if we were to this electrical reno, now would be the best time since all units are vacant.

    Seller did offer to buy back the property if we did not want to proceed with the electrical reno.

    Would you still proceed with the reno or have seller buy back?

  • Bay Area, CA · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 43 votes
    4y

    I wanted to update on this. Knob and Tube was replaced with Romex and passed city inspection. All walls patched up. I sleep better at night now.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Warren A.:

    I wanted to update on this. Knob and Tube was replaced with Romex and passed city inspection. All walls patched up. I sleep better at night now.


     You did the right thing! Thanks for checking in....

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