Trying to get my head around numbers in Ireland and Spain

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Trying to get my head around numbers in Ireland and Spain

Haidee Hammond
Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes

Hi all (and thanks beforehand!)

I am just new here and I am trying to run some numbers to start making sense of it on the areas I know, Dublin, Ireland, where I live, and Malaga, Spain, where I am from, and I find that applying rule 50% expenses rule or the 2% return are absolutely impossible, not sure if I am looking at it wrong, if the market is just so different or what. I mean, even if the market is different I can imagine people here still invest in real estate, but maybe they follow different criteria, if the numbers I have been finding as examples for the states are true (I know if would also differ hugely from one state and city to another) why people rent at all. 

I will try to make some sense, taking the area where I live, Dublin 2, I know the price for an apartment of good quality, 50 sq meters, new-ish and one bedroom, would be 1300-1600 euros, and the price 250k-300k, give or take, that would imply that if I wanted to buy an apartment to rent it and be cash-flow positive (or equal, in the end at least you are getting an apartment) and asked for a mortgage to 30 years (don't think you can ask for longer) the cheapest I would be getting would be 1075 euros per month (and that is variable interest, always tricky), assuming 275k price (see http://www.mortgages.ie/go/first_time_buyers/mortg...) and that is putting 40k down (because you will be asked for a similar amount), if I get 1500 for the rent, and I assume half of it will be expenses (seriously that much?), 750 should pay the rent (no way obviously). also not taking into account the 5k I think you might need on fees and expenses when buying. Trying to follow the 2% rule rent would be 5500, and rent here is expensive but not mental. (check also https://www.daft.ie/report for more info around the country) the rest of the areas are the same kind of thing, give or take, nothing falls not even remotely on those rules of thumb, what is worse, any decent house get a war price so the asked for price goes up, never down. I know the idea is always getting a "good deal", but housing being in demand here, you might be able to get a decent deal, but nothing much better than that, from what I have seen, am I wrong?

I also checked Malaga, and unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I absolutely ruled it out, prices are lower, but not that much, rents, on the other hand rents (which is my idea, as I can´t afford to invest by just keeping properties for long without renting)  are quite low, and I know you don't always find a tenant as there is a huge surplus of houses (for the same price of house, even though that would mean a bigger one, you might be able to get 600-700 euros rent, I would say), I can be wrong, but I am not off by much definitely.

About taxes and so, well, I have no clue, I foresee that being an entire new adventure, but first things first... Anyone can help me making sense of this?

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Colin G Murphy
Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2010 · 263 posts · 159 votes
10y

Hi @Haidee Hammond

Firstly, as an Irishman living in Spain (Madrid), I can completely emphasise with your predicament above. If I could get a solid return on investment in Spain or Ireland I would have invested in both places years ago. Plenty of people are doing it, but they are either happy to take low returns and/or have inside knowledge that I don´t. 

As it turns out, I´m able to get far higher returns and at much lower purchase prices in Tampa Florida, so I have been having fun building a portfolio there plus buying, renovating and selling turnkey properties to investors.

Secondly, I wouldn´t place too much importance on all these vague rules of thumb (50% rule, 2% rule) because they are mostly meaningless. Wherever you choose to invest, you need to do some proper research and get a very solid handle on the typical fixed and variable costs for landlords in that area. For example, closing costs, property taxes, property management fees and insurance costs all vary wildly between Spain, Ireland and the US. Trying to estimate these costs by deducting a fixed percentage of the gross rents or the gross purchase price will get you nowhere. You need the real numbers and you need to put them into a spreadsheet.

You seem to have a good idea of market rents and mortgage repayments for apartments in Dublin. Next step is to find out taxes, insurance, community fees, maintenance fees and average vacancy rates. Speak to some local agents, read the daft.ie reports and try to track down a couple of experienced landlords. It´s a worthwhile exercise, but you´ll probably come to the conclusion that buying apartments in Dublin 2 is not a good way to generate a strong monthly cashflow. 

Same goes for Malaga - property prices are very high compared to market rents - that´s just for long term rents. Don´t even get me started on how fickle the vacation rental market can be down there. A lot of landlords are sitting on cash flow negative homes in your area.

I want to end on a positive note. It´s great that you are keen to build a rental portfolio. It is the best way I know to build wealth and generate passive income. If you put your mind to it you can be a successful landlord ANYWHERE YOU WANT. Keep working and don´t give up. Everybody hits a wall from time to time - the successful investors are the persistent sons of b*tches who keep moving forward no matter what.

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  • Haidee Hammond
    OP
    Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    *750 should pay the mortgage, I meant.

    0Reply
  • Colin G Murphy
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2010 · 263 posts · 159 votes
    10y

    Hi @Haidee Hammond

    Firstly, as an Irishman living in Spain (Madrid), I can completely emphasise with your predicament above. If I could get a solid return on investment in Spain or Ireland I would have invested in both places years ago. Plenty of people are doing it, but they are either happy to take low returns and/or have inside knowledge that I don´t. 

    As it turns out, I´m able to get far higher returns and at much lower purchase prices in Tampa Florida, so I have been having fun building a portfolio there plus buying, renovating and selling turnkey properties to investors.

    Secondly, I wouldn´t place too much importance on all these vague rules of thumb (50% rule, 2% rule) because they are mostly meaningless. Wherever you choose to invest, you need to do some proper research and get a very solid handle on the typical fixed and variable costs for landlords in that area. For example, closing costs, property taxes, property management fees and insurance costs all vary wildly between Spain, Ireland and the US. Trying to estimate these costs by deducting a fixed percentage of the gross rents or the gross purchase price will get you nowhere. You need the real numbers and you need to put them into a spreadsheet.

    You seem to have a good idea of market rents and mortgage repayments for apartments in Dublin. Next step is to find out taxes, insurance, community fees, maintenance fees and average vacancy rates. Speak to some local agents, read the daft.ie reports and try to track down a couple of experienced landlords. It´s a worthwhile exercise, but you´ll probably come to the conclusion that buying apartments in Dublin 2 is not a good way to generate a strong monthly cashflow. 

    Same goes for Malaga - property prices are very high compared to market rents - that´s just for long term rents. Don´t even get me started on how fickle the vacation rental market can be down there. A lot of landlords are sitting on cash flow negative homes in your area.

    I want to end on a positive note. It´s great that you are keen to build a rental portfolio. It is the best way I know to build wealth and generate passive income. If you put your mind to it you can be a successful landlord ANYWHERE YOU WANT. Keep working and don´t give up. Everybody hits a wall from time to time - the successful investors are the persistent sons of b*tches who keep moving forward no matter what.

    2Reply
  • Haidee Hammond
    OP
    Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Thanks a million for your reply @Colin Murphy, I know I have to learn a lot lot more, but I was also trying to get a feeling for different parts of both countries, and also trying to find out why those numbers didn't seem to work out at all.

    I started looking also at the taxes and mortgages etc. Taxes seem to be better in Spain, but rent is inconsistent and unreliable, even if you can get a good deal (asking prices are still too high, but I can imagine such a slow market have to give good deals every now and then), not convinced, of course, but will have a further look, the university area has higher rent average and is more reliable, and taxes are none if you rent to people under 30 as far as I understand it, of course, students might not be the best average tenant, but they don't expect much either. I have the impression Ireland makes sense only for my own home (rents are expensive), which might result in rent if I move, but, would also start by saving me the rent, but even though I will keep looking, does not look great either.

    I have the idea that both areas should keep busy and also should maintain at least their value and I have to make many more numbers, but, unless a great deal comes... (surprising as that would be particularly in Ireland).

    The states market sounds more appealing at least on bits of it (after the shock of seeing some NYC stats), but I have no ties there, so, would be harder for me. On the plus side, if stubbornness is what it takes, I am pretty sure I am sorted ;)

    I will update further findings here as a help to future readers. 

    PS. You wouldn't happen to have any idea of why are so many empty buildings in the city centre, would you? I have the strong impression that what I see doesn't follow market "rules" and if that is the case, I must be missing something, and I am not good at leaving things unknown.

    1Reply
  • Micki M.
    Flipper/Rehabber · York, UK · Member since 2013 · 895 posts · 453 votes
    10y

    Thanks for posting. I just added Ireland as a key word as I am looking into spending time over there.  I wonder if either of you have looked at Portugal (since it's in the middle)? A few years ago property prices were super low, that seems to have changed but I get the sense the rental market is similar to Spain, lower prices and lots of inventory.

    0Reply
  • Haidee Hammond
    OP
    Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Hi, firstly thanks for the advice @Micki M.it was a good idea as it looks like at least on a first look small apts in Lisbon city center should actually work well, but given I don't know the city at all and can't travel much this year (I have a complicated one), I might need to revisit the idea next year. 

    As for Ireland and Spain, I would like to share some preliminary basic information. 

    As for Dublin, Ireland (considering apartment to buy and hold) on the basic expenses I have listed: maintenance service (quite approximate this seems to be 1 or 1.5 times a month's rent), garbage and cleaning etc included, usually water/electricity/internet are paid by the tenant here, so, nothing, register a tenancy (legally required): 90 eur, add on daft.ie (biggest real estate search engine) 45 eur on the cheapest option, life insurance for the mortgage (if you need a mortgage) approx 25 eur monthly, home insurance approx 400 eur year, when buying a house you need to pay (besides legal fees (1% approx) and valuation report (150 eur approx) the stamp duty (at the moment is exactly 1% of the value of the house). On monthly expenses you also might have real estate fees, but I didn't check as for my first property I really don't intent to use them, and the usual repairs, here there is something consider "normal wear and tear" meaning you can only retain part of the deposit if the damage is not considered cause by normal use.  If mortgage is required usually around 10% of the first 22k and 20% of the amount above that is required, but for investment usually they require bigger amounts. To notice as well: occupancy rate is as high as it can, so unoccupied time should be minimal and chances you don't rent the apartment are close to none. On the bad side, of course, are prices and demand. Return is better for small, not-so-new apartments on the city center. And last, but not least: taxes, although I don't know about the double taxation agreement with Canada or the States, in Spain basically you end up paying the bigger rate, so it would be 20/40% (check this for more info) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Repu... plus the USC http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/usc/ on the incomes, from which you can deduct repairs and many expenses WHILE IS RENTED (not if repairs are made between or to increase its value) and 75% of the interest paid from the mortgage. So, be expecting a good percentage of the income gone there.

    On Spain, Malaga, while rent tax exemptions are great at the moment (100% if you rent to people under 30 and 60% otherwise), the prices are not low enough and although you might get a great deal (even a great deal on quite big land plots) the chances of renting it with such a surplus of apartments are not that good, same goes for selling, so I didn't even look that much in detail. Also rents are quite low in general.

    Hope this help some other people in the same situation, and if I am wrong in anything, please, let me know!

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  • Robert Edwards
    Nerja, Malaga · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    Hi Haidee

    Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Robert Edwards and I own LPG SPAIN, a property portal in Spain. Regarding your comments about rentals in Spain, demand is very high in the popular coastal resorts such as Marbella, Nerja, Malaga, Alicante, Almeria, Valencia, Barcelona, and as such can provide a good ROI. Property prices are beginning to rise here in Spain but there is still a glut of unsold property and 'snips' are available, if you search them out. So you shouldn't wtite off Spain so quickly.

    Kind regards

    Robert

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  • Haidee Hammond
    OP
    Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Hi Robert, thanks for your opinion. You will undoubtedly have more information than I do, but I just didn't get a good impression when checking the numbers and so. I am also from Malaga and I know how many unoccupied apartments are there (which I guess explains low rents and makes me worry about future value), maybe Marbella situation is much different. As I mentioned before if anything I was considering university area, had the impression occupation level were higher, there is not that much built around and I expect demand to keep the same (besides students like to live close by, which would keep demand the same-ish even if more is built in the future, unlikely to happen any time soon anyway ). Renting apartments to students (although I am not sure of the usual deal for the summer months) has also the advantage of no taxes, for short term rents I understand taxes would be much higher, and occupancy would be bad winter months regardless, but I have struggled to find actual numbers to check what I believe to be true. If you could help me understand better I would be very grateful, 

    Kind Regards, 

    Guiomar 

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  • Robert Edwards
    Nerja, Malaga · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    Dear Guiomar 

    I do agree that you need to identify which rental market you want. There is obviously a big difference between student rentals, national rentals and perhaps the most lucrative of all, those of foreign residents wishing to live all year round. I live on the Costa del Sol and there is a general shortage of good rental properties for the foreigners wishing to live here. You also need to pick your 'spot' so to speak, in other words the right sort of town where demand is high.

    All the best

    Robert

    0Reply
  • Haidee Hammond
    OP
    Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Hi @Robert Edwards, made some research following your reply (I know, month ago, but believe me, what a month it was), and even though I know Marbella area well, I have no clue of the kind of properties that might be on demand or the occupancy rates or how to handle holiday rents etc. I obviously need to learn more before I could made any kind of further maths. Could you point me in the right direction or tell me how should I start researching that? I honestly have no clue of what foreigners look for, small apartments? long or short stays? big houses? do they care about swimming pool? do they usually rent a car or do they walk? You mention long stays as a good idea, and good rental properties, but then again, I really don't know what ¨good¨means in this context. After some research I have the impression options could be apartments close to the see and shops or bigger relaxing houses (which will most likely need a car), in which case I feel buying a plot and building a wood house might be a better idea than buying a house, unless you find a very good deal.

    Then again, I am just learning and still trying to make sense of what I read, find and see.

    Thanks a million,

    0Reply
  • Robert Edwards
    Nerja, Malaga · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    Hi Haidee

    To answer your questions could take me quite a while! To get an idea of what people look for in a holiday or long term rental home, visit our website (there is a link from my profile), go to the BLOG section, scroll down and select page 7, and then click on the article "Buy to Rent in Spain", and then watch the video in the article (blow it up full screen). It was made by a leading holiday company in Malaga and they gave us permission to reproduce it. It covers best what most people are seeking. As far as where do foreigners wish to reside in Spain? Well obviously the coastal areas are the most popular such as the Costa Blanca, Costa de Murcia and the Costa del Sol, plus of course the Balearics and Canary Islands. Hope this helps.

    All the best

    Robert

    1Reply
  • Haidee Hammond
    OP
    Dublin, Dublin · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Robert Edwards!

    0Reply
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