Opinions on Holton-Wise Property Group
Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 21 votes
Opinions on Holton-Wise Property Group
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes@Brandon Reinhardt I see this back and forth of a classic OOS investor who buys something wanting the greatest return possible but then expects them to perform like they bought a rental in Cupertino LOL.
get used to it... 550 renters anywhere in any big city are in constant turn over.. you ... but your right no need to reach for higher rent every month you stay vacant you lost ONE YEAR to make it up.. not many realize what you realize
I think Jim is about as honest as anyone in the space describing the challenges in C D class rentals.. I think buyers just choose to ignore the advice and or think for some reason their results will be different.
122 Replies
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes8y
Not to get involved in the conversation regarding HW, but to address some of the other claims:
If a post is reported, any moderator is going to be able to see that. No moderator is going to be able to "clear the deck", so to speak, to hide complaints about themselves.
Second, a moderator doesn't lose their ability to post their opinion or defend themselves (or, in this case, their company), just because they become a moderator.
Finally, while legitimate criticism of companies is fine, as well as factual evidence, some of these posts are veering into the territory of being a personal attack, which is not permissible conduct. You can disagree with a person without editorializing (i.e. " since you lack comprehension skills").
Skyline Properties - Investor · Prairieville, LA · Member since 2015 · 311 posts · 424 votes8y
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but have 15 years of experience in being a landlord. Here is some general advice concerning this thread:
1. Class C and D properties will usually have high turnover due to non-pays, kicking people out for illegal activities, a great tenant moving in the new partner (i.e. girlfriend/boyfriend) who is a dead beat who doesn't work and causes problems with the neighbors, kicking people out who tear up, etc. When there is turnover, there is a potential of large repair bills. Oh and the new dead beat boyfriend, he is just visiting....that is what they will tell the judge when you evict due to a lease violation of moving them in there without your permission.
2. Class C and D properties will get robbed more often. I know of areas where landlords must go run to the property to remove all appliances from the unit when it goes vacant because they grow legs and walk off. I know of landlords who bolt down or cage in their AC units because it will get stolen for $20 worth of copper that some crackhead will then use to go buy a crack rock, leaving thousands of dollars worth a damage to the owner for that hit of crack.
3. People who succeed in these properties are SPECIALISTS. They themselves are the boots on the ground or they have a dedicated employee or family member in that capacity.
4. If you are not a SPECIALIST in this type of property, then DO NOT INVEST IN CLASS C or D PROPERTIES!!!!! Get a higher asset class, class A or B, buy bonds, or just put your money in a S & P 500 index mutual fund. With the bonds, CD's or S & P mutual fund, you set it and forget it.
5. Your 20% pro forma and 12 cap rate calculations for C and D class properties are pure BS unless you have #3. If that is the case, you are working your a$$ off to get those returns.
6. 90 % of property management companies in my area do not take on Class C and D properties and about 95% who manage in Class C and D aren't worth a sh$t! This may or may not be true in your area. Managing these properties are a lot more work and I don't think you can please owners with a $4000 repair bill every time someone moves out. All applicants in Class D areas will have bad credit. I have seen some folks with good credit in Class C, but they are not in the majority.
7. The further you go down in asset class, the harder you (or your rep) will work. For example, Class C- is more work than C+. Class D----you may as well just show up in the area every day. These areas need full time babysitters and law enforcement.
Again, I will say.
IF ARE NOT A SPECIALIST IN CLASS C OR D, INVEST YOUR MONEY ELSEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Avi Garg:
@James Wise I understand the 30 day process and I acknowledged that in my email to the manager assigned and I wanted to know how will things be handled since 30 days end up in March 2-3 and a confirmed end date to let my tenants know. Just getting an email saying it will be processed tells me nothing.
Also your staff did not inform me that the final accounting will be processed by end of Feb. Below is the email response I got:
"Your request to cancel management with Holton-Wise has been received and will be processed accordingly."
Again thanks for coming out here with some objective & constructive feedback. I will be the 1st to admit that I see a shortcoming in our performance here & I am going to speak with the staff tomorrow. There are so many unknowns & uncontrollables in the property management business. When we fall short on something like this that IS controllable that's a bad look for Holton-Wise. One i'd like to correct.
I'd like to make sure we have a much clearer line of communication on the exit process. Your question about March 2-3 makes total sense. I'd ask the same if I were you as just ending everything at the end of Feb makes a lot of sense but the contract says 30 days so which one is it? My staff will be in touch with you tomorrow with a much more detailed response than what we have presented thus far.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Brandon Reinhardt:
@James Wise Mr. Wise, in regard to your map comment:
Again, Brandon if you have grievances you would like to air out here fine. But do not use misinformation to do so.
It seems clear to me you may be lacking in GIS skills (or maybe even basic geography) so I went ahead an overlayed my property on your own map for you. I gave the address out so people could do this exercise themselves but after seeing that you yourself are incapable of this task, I thought I would make it easier for the group and set the record straight. You have defined this region as C class by your own standards. The misinformation is not coming from my end...
Im not defending HW here, but Google maps shows me the property is 1,000 feet, (30% shorter as the crow flies) and I counted, 9 houses away from from the Red Blob if you go one way, and 4 houses to the Red blob if you go up another street. Does a buffer of 4 houses really make a transition from a bad to a good area?
@Jay Hinrichs and myself constantly say on these forums, dont by these kinds of properties.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Attorney · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 535 posts · 389 votes8y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Brandon Reinhardt:
@James Wise Mr. Wise, in regard to your map comment:
Again, Brandon if you have grievances you would like to air out here fine. But do not use misinformation to do so.
It seems clear to me you may be lacking in GIS skills (or maybe even basic geography) so I went ahead an overlayed my property on your own map for you. I gave the address out so people could do this exercise themselves but after seeing that you yourself are incapable of this task, I thought I would make it easier for the group and set the record straight. You have defined this region as C class by your own standards. The misinformation is not coming from my end...
Im not defending HW here, but Google maps shows me the property is 1,000 feet, (30% shorter as the crow flies) and I counted, 9 houses away from from the Red Blob if you go one way, and 4 houses to the Red blob if you go up another street. Does a buffer of 4 houses really make a transition from a bad to a good area?
@Jay Hinrichs and myself constantly say on these forums, dont by these kinds of properties.
I'm in Akron right now, and the difference between four houses in a row all getting burglarized and consistently getting cars broken into is just on the other side of the street. So, yeah, I'd say it matters.
By the way, those upgrades look extreme for a C/D grade house. Very nice job by HW.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Brandon Reinhardt I see this back and forth of a classic OOS investor who buys something wanting the greatest return possible but then expects them to perform like they bought a rental in Cupertino LOL.
get used to it... 550 renters anywhere in any big city are in constant turn over.. you ... but your right no need to reach for higher rent every month you stay vacant you lost ONE YEAR to make it up.. not many realize what you realize
I think Jim is about as honest as anyone in the space describing the challenges in C D class rentals.. I think buyers just choose to ignore the advice and or think for some reason their results will be different.
Thank you Jay I appreciate you saying that. Being real about the business is one of the things I pride myself on. I mean c'mon I have a video posted all over the internet talking about how a tenant tried to burn my personal residence down & I now have the title to my new personal residence in a name other than me or my wifes. If that isn't transparency that real estate can be a savage & or tough business I don't know what else I could put out there.
Ya know folks I learned a long time ago that in business, especially the property management business you cannot please everyone. Let's take this thread for example. We have @Avi Garg comments. One of the reasons he is leaving the Holton-Wise portfolio is he has a differing opinion on how nicely we need to renovate the properties.
Repairs are done to the highest standard. A C class property does not need everything to A Class standard which is what HW strives to do and bills accordingly. Now some of the owners may like the finishes to be of the highest standard for a $600-$700 rent/month/unit but I felt it was too much.
Hey that's fine. Avi is the owner & he should run his properties anyway he wants to. As an investor & owner of a property management business myself I have a slightly different vision on some things. More so than that though is at the same time Avi thinks Holton-Wise is spending too much on unit renovations I had another thread on bigger pockets the other day where an investor claimed he wouldn't consider working with Holton-Wise because we had poor reviews from our tenants online.
One of the recurring themes in those negative reviews is that the tenants think we don't renovate the properties enough. That is the life of a property manager. In one ear you are getting beat down for doing too little while another opposing side is in the other ear telling you, you are doing too much. It's not even as simple as a tenant in one ear & investor in the other as these two threads have proven. Some investors see what the tenants are saying & don't want to do business with the property manager. While at the same time other investors think that the property manager is going overboard for the tenants.
Case & point property management is tough. It's a tough & savage business. The lower the assets are the tougher it becomes. As an investor I totally understand & respect Avi's opinion even though it differs from mine. & you know what he may be able to run his property more profitably without using Holton-Wise's services. We aren't the right fit for everyone. Ya see, you can't run a portfolio of 2, 3, 5 or 10 houses the same way a company runs a $50M+ portfolio. The two are two totally different animals with different factors & exterior circumstances coming into play on what is logistically feasible in the operation of the portfolio.
- Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Brandon Reinhardt:
@James Wise Mr. Wise, in regard to your map comment:
Again, Brandon if you have grievances you would like to air out here fine. But do not use misinformation to do so.
It seems clear to me you may be lacking in GIS skills (or maybe even basic geography) so I went ahead an overlayed my property on your own map for you. I gave the address out so people could do this exercise themselves but after seeing that you yourself are incapable of this task, I thought I would make it easier for the group and set the record straight. You have defined this region as C class by your own standards. The misinformation is not coming from my end...
Wouldn't your Masters and experience noticed this during your due diligence period? I mean you have 5 other properties in similar markets, surely you'd be able to tell ....
- Attorney · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 535 posts · 389 votes8y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
Across the street enjoys the benefit of being in a patrol zone and extra policing since there is a school on that side. There is also a big landlord movement to make that side student housing. I'm on the side that isn't really taken over by the bigger landlords and there are regular low-income higher crime residential folks.
When I was looking at schools in Cleveland, CSU and Case Western, I found it similar, except the income changes felt more dramatic.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Bill F.:
@James Wise I have no dog in this fight and for what's its worth, based off your other posts, your responses to the post (I noticed you aren't a moderator anymore), level of attention to detail, and most importantly your willingness to admit mistakes/seeking improvement I would invest with you. Kudos for handling this situation better than other TK providers who may or may not have been podcast guests.
@Brandon Reinhardt What @Jay Hinrichs wrote wasn't patronizing at all, he shared his opinion. That's what this site is about. Doesn't matter if you have a Masters, MBA, or GED.
We haven't heard a lot about what DD you did besides blaming an agent for the tenants a seller placed in a unit before it sold. Its not the first, nor will it be the last time, that a seller infills units with sub par renters before a sale. Did you estoppel tenants, ask to see their file, run your own credit checks? The repair cost seem in line for any other PM. You will pay some amount of convenience in their fees. Does the communication need work, yes, but that's not a surprising short coming.
Best of luck with your properties
Thanks bill. I appreciate the feedback.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:
Jay Hinrichs - I agree with you. I do not know or have ever used Holton-wise but have been in real estate for 20 years and from the property description and location I do not see anything wrong.
And for those who have not been in real estate long- 99% of property managers suck and I mean really suck. Many property managers are not well educated and do not know how to manage a property. I am not commmenting on holton- wise but giving my personal opinion on the field in general.
But I will say that the work they did does look decent and the fact they know what to use and what is durable lends me to believe they know there stuff. Going with the cheapest Property or a cheap PM is only asking for trouble.
Thanks Chris. I appreciate your candor.
- Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @James Galla:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
Across the street enjoys the benefit of being in a patrol zone and extra policing since there is a school on that side. There is also a big landlord movement to make that side student housing. I'm on the side that isn't really taken over by the bigger landlords and there are regular low-income higher crime residential folks.
When I was looking at schools in Cleveland, CSU and Case Western, I found it similar, except the income changes felt more dramatic.
are the patrols not able to look at the opposite side of the street?
- 8yBrian CardwellPro MemberInvestor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votesWilliam, I have a dog in the fight. I am a current client of HWPG. I started working with them in January of 2017. I am an OOS investor. The sales side of HW is very respectfully and responsive. I have purchased three properties from them in the last year. The first property took about 100 days from start to finish. The long time was not HWPGs fault. It was the that the previous owner had not finished the rehab on time. I did think I did over paid for the first one but I knew I was overpaying for it. It is in a C Class neighborhood and rented for $1115. The tenant was placed within a month of me taking ownership. This tenant is now being evicted for non payment. The second and third properties took only 50 days from start to finish. The second took one month to fill and the third took about 90 days and a rent reduction. To be fair to HWPG it was winter. they rented for 950 and 925. Both of these tenants are still there. Now communication with HWPG was really good until around the October of 2017. It dropped off when they made some operational changes. It still isn't back to up to what it used to be but I think they are working on it. SN: The agent I am working with is great to work with. He showed me a c/d triplex property but warned me about the pitfalls and let me decide if I wanted to deal with it. BTW it was a cash cow on paper. So feel they have played straight with me except on the first one but I knew what was going on there. I let that one happen. As far as the repairs.They seem to do good work and use good materials. I do think there are some things that I get charged for that I shouldn't be but I that is par for the course. ie... had turnover repairs done where the pilot on the water heater was cleaned and made in working condition and in less than 15 day they were back in doing the same repair again. All in all I have been relatively satisfied with them. As I said earlier, the communication could be better at this point and they are working on it.
- Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 142 posts · 104 votes8y
Glad to see things like this can be discussed & learned on BP. I have yet to buy a property from @James Wise but I have reached out to him on a few occasions asking for advice on properties not even sold by HW. James has been quick to reply & helpful. I would likely use them when I buy & their PM as well. Always best to do your DD & vet other people though. My knowledge of the Cleveland area is owed in large part to James' information. I don't think there is another member that shares as much info.
As far as the location of the property, it's a bummer it's so borderline, so I can see both points of view. However, a simple Trulia Crime Map look would show the property in the worst crime zone. Something I've learned to check on all the properties I look at.
- Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2016 · 214 posts · 95 votes8y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
Some streets in Akron will go from boarded up housing to six figures back to being boarded up again.
Howard going into Cuyahoga Falls does this, as well as Delia Avenue. - Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Alex Corral:
Glad to see things like this can be discussed & learned on BP. I have yet to buy a property from @James Wise but I have reached out to him on a few occasions asking for advice on properties not even sold by HW. James has been quick to reply & helpful. I would likely use them when I buy & their PM as well. Always best to do your DD & vet other people though. My knowledge of the Cleveland area is owed in large part to James' information. I don't think there is another member that shares as much info.
As far as the location of the property, it's a bummer it's so borderline, so I can see both points of view. However, a simple Trulia Crime Map look would show the property in the worst crime zone. Something I've learned to check on all the properties I look at.
Thanks Alex. I appreciate the love. Also the crime map is a great resource.
Investors, especially those out of state do not be afraid of google. Google is your friend. There is so much data out there on the net. This crime map is just one of the many great things one can find. Myself I like google street view. It allows you to go up & down the street. Any listing can use photos that present a property in the best light. Google street map is gonna let you see the entire area around the house over several different years. Totally unbiased just a raw & real snap shot of the area.
- Real Estate Agent · Akron, OH · Member since 2017 · 73 posts · 48 votes8y
Originally posted by @Jason Goretzki:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
Some streets in Akron will go from boarded up housing to six figures back to being boarded up again.
Howard going into Cuyahoga Falls does this, as well as Delia Avenue.In my zip code you could buy yourself a million dollar home or a 10k property with the properties being separated by a half mile.
- Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 227 posts · 287 votes8y
Originally posted by @Brendan Taylor:
Originally posted by @Jason Goretzki:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
Some streets in Akron will go from boarded up housing to six figures back to being boarded up again.
Howard going into Cuyahoga Falls does this, as well as Delia Avenue.In my zip code you could buy yourself a million dollar home or a 10k property with the properties being separated by a half mile.
Yeah. Cleveland has a ton of neighborhoods like this too. My partner was commenting the other day that Bratenahl must be weird place to live, because it's a gorgeous neighborhood with large expensive homes, and literally the next block over are dilapidated slums.
- Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @James Wise:
Originally posted by @Alex Corral:
Glad to see things like this can be discussed & learned on BP. I have yet to buy a property from @James Wise but I have reached out to him on a few occasions asking for advice on properties not even sold by HW. James has been quick to reply & helpful. I would likely use them when I buy & their PM as well. Always best to do your DD & vet other people though. My knowledge of the Cleveland area is owed in large part to James' information. I don't think there is another member that shares as much info.
As far as the location of the property, it's a bummer it's so borderline, so I can see both points of view. However, a simple Trulia Crime Map look would show the property in the worst crime zone. Something I've learned to check on all the properties I look at.
Thanks Alex. I appreciate the love. Also the crime map is a great resource.
Investors, especially those out of state do not be afraid of google. Google is your friend. There is so much data out there on the net. This crime map is just one of the many great things one can find. Myself I like google street view. It allows you to go up & down the street. Any listing can use photos that present a property in the best light. Google street map is gonna let you see the entire area around the house over several different years. Totally unbiased just a raw & real snap shot of the area.
Word of caution on street map.... check the date to see when the photo is from. Sometimes they are VERY out of date to the tune of like 5+ years...
- Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 880 votes8y
Originally posted by @Gwen Fyfe:
Yeah. Cleveland has a ton of neighborhoods like this too. My partner was commenting the other day that Bratenahl must be weird place to live, because it's a gorgeous neighborhood with large expensive homes, and literally the next block over are dilapidated slums.
I've always thought the same thing.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Gwen Fyfe:
Originally posted by @Brendan Taylor:
Originally posted by @Jason Goretzki:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
@James Galla I find it hard to believe the criminals in your neighborhood dont know how to cross the street.
Some streets in Akron will go from boarded up housing to six figures back to being boarded up again.
Howard going into Cuyahoga Falls does this, as well as Delia Avenue.In my zip code you could buy yourself a million dollar home or a 10k property with the properties being separated by a half mile.
Yeah. Cleveland has a ton of neighborhoods like this too. My partner was commenting the other day that Bratenahl must be weird place to live, because it's a gorgeous neighborhood with large expensive homes, and literally the next block over are dilapidated slums.
Lots of those mansions on Lake Erie have 10 ft high concrete walls around 3 sides of the whole property with a gate over the driveway. The 4th side is of course open to Lake Erie.
- Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes8y
I am wondering why the discussion is based so heavily on the grade of the area? I think that it is a fine neighborhood. I would live there. it is 44109! I do not think that the price was too high for the condition or area either. This is clearly a management dispute. I have properties in D areas that run great! I would not consider this a D area at all. I deal in all off market stuff and I have never done any business with James even though we share the same market and I have been in the game since he was in Jr. High, so I do not have an opinion if he was right or wrong, but I can say if you get the management figured out, you could sell that property pretty easily. Best of luck , If I can help ya out at all let me know.
- Spokane, WA · Member since 2016 · 103 posts · 76 votes8y
Okay, I don't want to kick a hornet's nest here. Just want to share an observation.
Earlier in the thread, Mr. Wise posted a series of photos of the interior of a client's property...after the client purchased it. One other person pointed this out as a violation of said client's privacy. I emphatically agree.
In my industry (IT) this is akin to posting photos of a customer's datacenter on Instagram. GROSS privacy violation. Could easily lead to millions of dollars in cyberattack-related damage. If you did this you'd get fired THAT DAY, blacklisted from working in the industry again...and it would be 100% your fault.
I value my privacy (as I'm sure everyone here does). If a property manager treats it with casual disregard, well, they won't work with me. Ever. The whole "he started it!" is for the child's playground, not the professional's office.
I must thank everyone for their input. I'd considered investing in the Cleveland area later this year or early next year. This has convinced me never to do that!
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