Opinions on Holton-Wise Property Group

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 21 votes

Does anyone here have experience with Holton-Wise Property Group? Both from an investment property acquisition perspective, and from a property management perspective?

Feel free to PM me if you prefer to keep your opinion non-public.

0 Reply

431 views

Most Popular Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

@Brandon Reinhardt I see this back and forth of a classic OOS investor who buys something wanting the greatest return possible but then expects them to perform like they bought a rental in Cupertino LOL.

get used to it... 550 renters anywhere in any big city are in constant turn over.. you ... but your right no need to reach for higher rent every month you stay vacant you lost ONE YEAR to make it up.. not many realize what you realize

I think Jim is about as honest as anyone in the space describing the challenges in C D class rentals.. I think buyers just choose to ignore the advice and or think for some reason their results will be different.

Podcast Guest on Show #222

JLH Capital Partners51 Review

Website View Page

20 Reply

See this reply in the discussion

122 Replies

Jump to latestLatest

Sort by

James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Gwen Fyfe:

I feel like James being a mod on here is starting to be a conflict of interest. I mean, if a post of his gets flagged who does it go to? What about his staff's posts? And how openly and honestly can people share their experiences of his company if he shows up with the Moderator tag to post a bunch of photos of the poster's property when there's criticism?
A conflict would be me using the moderator tag to remove &/or censor his posts. I didn't, don't & will never will do that. Any criticism that my company receives is out there in the open. If Brandon would like to publicly air his grievance that's fine with me. It is his or any one's prerogative. I am as transparent as possible. However as a business owner if something is posted that I feel is not telling the entire story I will be sure to post my opinion & supporting documentation of it. He says that we do not send photos. Well that's just not true. As such I have supported my statement with photos. I do not run my company in the shadows. I stand by everyone of our policies. My company does exactly what we say we are going to do.
1 Reply
Gwen Fyfe
Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 227 posts · 287 votes
8y
James, if someone reports your posts on this forum because they think you are being inappropriate, who does it go to? If someone reports your staff's posts on this forum, who does it go to?
1 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Brandon Reinhardt:

Absolutely not, but give me a few minutes, you're all going to love these invoices and marketing I was sent on the property!!! Forthcoming!
No need Brandon. I've put the marketing up & I'll get those invoices on the thread momentarily.
0 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Brandon here are those estimates. I don't see anything wrong or abnormal involved with them?
1 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Gwen Fyfe:
James, if someone reports your posts on this forum because they think you are being inappropriate, who does it go to? If someone reports your staff's posts on this forum, who does it go to?
The other moderators & or BP staff would handle any post of mine that was flagged for a potential violation of the Forum Rules. To my knowledge providing documentation & evidence that your company did the job they were hired to do when another member says otherwise is not a violation of any rules. That's just responsible business ownership.
0 Reply
Gwen Fyfe
Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 227 posts · 287 votes
8y
So it goes straight to them? If you or your staff have a post flagged, it doesn't come to you for moderation at all, right?
0 Reply
Gwen Fyfe
Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 227 posts · 287 votes
8y
I mean, I'm an auditor and an accountant. To me, this is a pretty clear conflict of interest. But, YMMV, I guess.
Anyway... I think most people are pretty unlikely to post anything but good feedback about a business in a forum where the business owner is a mod, especially when they get this type of reaction. So the discussion continues over beers and in private. Which is a shame for anyone looking for information here.
I'm pretty skeptical of Holton Wise, as I said a couple of months ago. An attitude of "if you criticize me it's totally fine for me to publicly post details of your investment" definitely puts the cherry on it. (Although I'm mostly on the East side so it's not too likely anyway.)
But, I believe that individual salespeople at HW have a lot of leeway to run their stuff the way they want to, which is great. I know I've talked with one or two when looking at deals for out of state investors, and those employees have been very responsive.
3 Reply
Matt K.
Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Gwen Fyfe:

I mean, I'm an auditor and an accountant. To me, this is a pretty clear conflict of interest. But, YMMV, I guess.
Anyway... I think most people are pretty unlikely to post anything but good feedback about a business in a forum where the business owner is a mod, especially when they get this type of reaction. So the discussion continues over beers and in private. Which is a shame for anyone looking for information here.
I'm pretty skeptical of Holton Wise, as I said a couple of months ago. An attitude of "if you criticize me it's totally fine for me to publicly post details of your investment" definitely puts the cherry on it. (Although I'm mostly on the East side so it's not too likely anyway.)
But, I believe that individual salespeople at HW have a lot of leeway to run their stuff the way they want to, which is great. I know I've talked with one or two when looking at deals for out of state investors, and those employees have been very responsive.
Go look at the amount of Morris Invest fanboys.... so many new accounts singing their praise after some rather crazy accounts of product/service. Or the fact they shut people up w/ refunds and then NDAs/take down requests...
2 Reply
Brandon Reinhardt
Real Estate Professional · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 23 votes
8y
Hi James,
I must say, other than the response to the offer to purchase, this was the fastest response I have ever received from Holton Wise!! You must rely pretty heavily on the wallets of the BiggerPocket community for me to so quickly receive such a detail oriented response. Please allow me to give my more expansive, evidence backed explanation as well.
First, your message above references this as a "D" neighborhood when it's so clearly marked on your map as a "C" neighborhood. Still less than stellar, but only further evidence of you adapting the message to your own interests. Anyone is welcome to cross check this for themselves, 3210 Chestnutdale is the address. It is very interesting in reading both your message and your article on how you place so much blame on the inherited tenants and previous owner/management. I agree that is important to evaluate and hopefully your boots on the ground agent can assist you and give his professional opinion....I know the one I got encouraged the purchase! (see email) The curious case here was that your brokerage represented both the buy and sell side, meaning you had full knowledge of the scenario. I would be curious to know if you had previously represented this unethical seller (artificially placing unqualified tenants) and if you continue to do so, my guess is probably yes to both.
Interesting what you had to say about your agent and throwing him under the bus. Would have preferred to leave his name out of this because overall, I think he's a great guy to work with. Again, you will find his comments on the deal in an email referenced below. For more good measure, I included the lovely Holton Wise marketing blast that went out on the deal. Me thinks your brokerage commissions and deal churns are more valuable than long term relationships so long as the word of mouth doesn't rear it's ugly head back to your precious deal factory, BiggerPockets. Careful not to burn your hand (or clients) Mr. Wise (or not so?)!
Now, let's get into the outlandish and ongoing repair/maintenance costs coupled with utter lack of communication with management. I will go ahead and let the invoices and email threads speak for themselves, but if this isn't the definition of nickle and diming, I am not sure what is. I don't have time to go through every single message (far too many) but what's here should give everyone a good enough idea of what you'll be signing up for. I tried to make a few comments on the emails in RED so that you can see my comments/frustrations.
Finally, they were never able to keep the property over 50% occupancy...ever. Even though the units remained vacant, they raised the rents in the marketing to $575 without letting me know. I found out by viewing the advertisement and asked that they not only bring the rent back to the original asking price of $550, but please drop it to $500 because I would really just like to get a tenant in there for a change. Hard to believe? I thought so too.
Best of luck everyone.
1 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

Here is the advertisement we had sent out for the property in question. My companies contact information & social media links have been redacted as that is only allowed in the MarketPlace. (NOTE this property is NOT currently for sale)

I don't see anything misleading about this advertisement.

FOR SALE

3210 Chestnutdale ave.
Cleveland, Ohio 44109
$119,900

4 unit apartment buildings are the best of both worlds. This is the largest building you can buy and still get a 30 year mortgage. This building will bring in $2,200/mo when it is fully occupied and the down payment needed is under $30k!

HIGHLIGHTS

$119,900
4 units
$29,975 per unit
Unit 1 $550 2b/1b
Unit 2 $550 2b/1b
Unit 3 $550 2b/1b
Unit 4 Vacant. 2b/1b Seller is cleaning out the unit as well as repainting it and replacing the bedroom carpets. Market rent $550
Roof 10+ years
Newer vinyl windows throughout the entire building
Separate utilities for all the tenants

Copyright © 2016 The Holton-Wise Property Group, All rights reserved.
The Holton-Wise Property Group does not doubt the accuracy of any of the information contained herein. However we have not verified it and make no guarantee, warranty or representation about it. Properties listed herein may be listed by brokerages other than The Holton-Wise Property Group. It is your
responsibility to independently confirm its accuracy and completeness. Any projections, opinions, assumptions, or estimates used are for example only and do not represent the current or future performance of any property. Actual results may vary from any projections, opinions, assumptions, or estimates and you should conduct a careful, independent investigation of the property to determine to your satisfaction the suitability of the property for your needs.

1 Reply

Brandon Reinhardt
Real Estate Professional · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 23 votes
8y
0 Reply
Brandon Reinhardt
Real Estate Professional · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 23 votes
8y
0 Reply
Brandon Reinhardt
Real Estate Professional · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 23 votes
8y
Can post most later for folks interested....curious to hear other's experiences and/or the handling of my message by the business owner.
0 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Brandon Reinhardt:

Hi James,
I must say, other than the response to the offer to purchase, this was the fastest response I have ever received from Holton Wise!! You must rely pretty heavily on the wallets of the BiggerPocket community for me to so quickly receive such a detail oriented response. Please allow me to give my more expansive, evidence backed explanation as well.
First, your message above references this as a "D" neighborhood when it's so clearly marked on your map as a "C" neighborhood. Still less than stellar, but only further evidence of you adapting the message to your own interests. Anyone is welcome to cross check this for themselves, 3210 Chestnutdale is the address. It is very interesting in reading both your message and your article on how you place so much blame on the inherited tenants and previous owner/management. I agree that is important to evaluate and hopefully your boots on the ground agent can assist you and give his professional opinion....I know the one I got encouraged the purchase! (see email) The curious case here was that your brokerage represented both the buy and sell side, meaning you had full knowledge of the scenario. I would be curious to know if you had previously represented this unethical seller (artificially placing unqualified tenants) and if you continue to do so, my guess is probably yes to both.
Interesting what you had to say about your agent and throwing him under the bus. Would have preferred to leave his name out of this because overall, I think he's a great guy to work with. Again, you will find his comments on the deal in an email referenced below. For more good measure, I included the lovely Holton Wise marketing blast that went out on the deal. Me thinks your brokerage commissions and deal churns are more valuable than long term relationships so long as the word of mouth doesn't rear it's ugly head back to your precious deal factory, BiggerPockets. Careful not to burn your hand (or clients) Mr. Wise (or not so?)!
Now, let's get into the outlandish and ongoing repair/maintenance costs coupled with utter lack of communication with management. I will go ahead and let the invoices and email threads speak for themselves, but if this isn't the definition of nickle and diming, I am not sure what is. I don't have time to go through every single message (far too many) but what's here should give everyone a good enough idea of what you'll be signing up for. I tried to make a few comments on the emails in RED so that you can see my comments/frustrations.
Finally, they were never able to keep the property over 50% occupancy...ever. Even though the units remained vacant, they raised the rents in the marketing to $575 without letting me know. I found out by viewing the advertisement and asked that they not only bring the rent back to the original asking price of $550, but please drop it to $500 because I would really just like to get a tenant in there for a change. Hard to believe? I thought so too.
Best of luck everyone.
Again, Brandon if you have grievances you would like to air out here fine. But do not use misinformation to do so. 71 runs East/West then turns into North/South. Your property is sitting north of about 90% of the East/West section. On top of that you know as well as anyone that this is used as a general guide. I have maintained & always maintain that there are an unlimited amount of variables at play at all times. C-Class-D-Class rentals are a tough biz. I don't think anyone can deny that I am incredibly open about that. You ran into normal aspects of the rental business & are trying to scapegoat my company because of it. Sometimes tenants stop paying & need to get evicted. You evict them & then you move on. Simple as that. If you aren't up for that buy high end rental property. This property was never pitched to you as anything other than what it was. A rental property with units in the $500-600 range.
1 Reply
Avi Garg
Rental Property Investor · Concord, CA · Member since 2016 · 499 posts · 219 votes
8y
Disclaimer: Current owner of properties managed by HW
I have mixed feelings so I will let the readers decide by listing pros and cons of HW.
PRO:
1. Big company and does a good job. Had an opportunity to speak with a tenant and he praised HW guys who came out to do repairs.
2. Fast communication before signing the PM contract
3. Repairs are done quick and to the highest standard. Same with turnover
4. James and his team does put out some good material for the wannabe landlords in Cleveland area
5. I have seen some good deals in their email communication
CONS:
1. Repairs are done to the highest standard. A C class property does not need everything to A Class standard which is what HW strives to do and bills accordingly. Now some of the owners may like the finishes to be of the highest standard for a $600-$700 rent/month/unit but I felt it was too much.
2. Definitely not the cheapest repairs as James claimed earlier in this thread. For example, @Brandon Reinhardt property being a D class (as James claimed), it doesn't need a top of the line toilet. A high efficiency toilet from Glacier Bay is $89 vs American standard at $159 (with HW high volume they may be getting that cheaper).
3. Owner disbursement at the end of the month. I knew this before signing so no complaints here just pointing out.
4. Absence of communication. Why put in a phone number for PM when nobody answers or even call back after leaving a voice mail? Even emails are replied late. God forbid if you have to terminate PM. I sent PM termination notice on Jan 31, received communication back on Feb 9 that my request has been received and will be processed. I am still waiting it to be processed today Feb 14.
Again not bashing HW as I knew to some extent what I was getting into.
8 Reply
James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Avi Garg:
Disclaimer: Current owner of properties managed by HW
I have mixed feelings so I will let the readers decide by listing pros and cons of HW.
PRO:
1. Big company and does a good job. Had an opportunity to speak with a tenant and he praised HW guys who came out to do repairs.
2. Fast communication before signing the PM contract
3. Repairs are done quick and to the highest standard. Same with turnover
4. James and his team does put out some good material for the wannabe landlords in Cleveland area
5. I have seen some good deals in their email communication
CONS:
1. Repairs are done to the highest standard. A C class property does not need everything to A Class standard which is what HW strives to do and bills accordingly. Now some of the owners may like the finishes to be of the highest standard for a $600-$700 rent/month/unit but I felt it was too much.
2. Definitely not the cheapest repairs as James claimed earlier in this thread. For example, @Brandon Reinhardt property being a D class (as James claimed), it doesn't need a top of the line toilet. A high efficiency toilet from Glacier Bay is $89 vs American standard at $159 (with HW high volume they may be getting that cheaper).
3. Owner disbursement at the end of the month. I knew this before signing so no complaints here just pointing out.
4. Absence of communication. Why put in a phone number for PM when nobody answers or even call back after leaving a voice mail? Even emails are replied late. God forbid if you have to terminate PM. I sent PM termination notice on Jan 31, received communication back on Feb 9 that my request has been received and will be processed. I am still waiting it to be processed today Feb 14.
Again not bashing HW as I knew to some extent what I was getting into.
Avi,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. (The good & the bad) This is great feedback. You addressed your concerns in a logical & honest way, for that I am appreciative. I will take this feedback to my team & see what can be done to address some communication shortcomings. There is always opportunity to increase the quality of ones business.
In regards to account termination; that is a 30 day process. This is outlined in our property management agreement. I believe my staff informed you that your final accounting will be processed by the end of Feb on the same normal accounting schedule. If that was not made clear in your Feb 9th email let me know as that is something that I will address with my staff.
Lastly, I respect your opinion on the toilet. It is your right to have that opinion but I want to get it on the record that I disagree with you. Tenants are rough on toilets (or any plumbing fixture) The American Standard has proven to be able to withstand more abuse & be a better toilet in the long run. This is a hardening method just like the removal of ceiling fans & utilizing lock-less door handles. But hey it's your property & I wish you luck with it in the future!
3 Reply
Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y
@Brandon Reinhardt I see this back and forth of a classic OOS investor who buys something wanting the greatest return possible but then expects them to perform like they bought a rental in Cupertino LOL.
get used to it... 550 renters anywhere in any big city are in constant turn over.. you ... but your right no need to reach for higher rent every month you stay vacant you lost ONE YEAR to make it up.. not many realize what you realize
I think Jim is about as honest as anyone in the space describing the challenges in C D class rentals.. I think buyers just choose to ignore the advice and or think for some reason their results will be different.
Podcast Guest on Show #222
JLH Capital Partners51 Review
Website View Page
20 Reply
Avi Garg
Rental Property Investor · Concord, CA · Member since 2016 · 499 posts · 219 votes
8y
@James Wise I understand the 30 day process and I acknowledged that in my email to the manager assigned and I wanted to know how will things be handled since 30 days end up in March 2-3 and a confirmed end date to let my tenants know. Just getting an email saying it will be processed tells me nothing.
Also your staff did not inform me that the final accounting will be processed by end of Feb. Below is the email response I got:
"Your request to cancel management with Holton-Wise has been received and will be processed accordingly."
0 Reply
Brandon Reinhardt
Real Estate Professional · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 23 votes
8y
@Jay Hinrichs With all due respect, I have a Masters Degree in Real Estate Development as well as 11 years of industry experience so please, don't patronize me. I also own 5 other properties in other similar rental markets. When a property manager can't achieve over 50% occupancy in 8 months, there is a problem the manager, not the property. Further proving my point, new management took over Jan 1 and had it at 75% lease up in under 3 weeks. I expect that to reach 100% by end of the month.
4 Reply
Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
8y
Jay Hinrichs - I agree with you. I do not know or have ever used Holton-wise but have been in real estate for 20 years and from the property description and location I do not see anything wrong. And for those who have not been in real estate long- 99% of property managers suck and I mean really suck. Many property managers are not well educated and do not know how to manage a property. I am not commmenting on holton- wise but giving my personal opinion on the field in general. But I will say that the work they did does look decent and the fact they know what to use and what is durable lends me to believe they know there stuff. Going with the cheapest Property or a cheap PM is only asking for trouble.
7e investments53 Reviews
Website View Page
6 Reply
Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y
@Brandon Reinhardt does not matter your back ground or education.. D class mid west rentals at 550 a month are just high turn over.. that's my point... you can be full today and 50% vacancy in 6 months when your 550 tenant moves on and then mad at the new manager.. or has some other drama in their life.. it just is what it is at those price points.
Podcast Guest on Show #222
JLH Capital Partners51 Review
Website View Page
2 Reply
Brandon Reinhardt
Real Estate Professional · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 23 votes
8y
@James Wise Mr. Wise, in regard to your map comment:
Again, Brandon if you have grievances you would like to air out here fine. But do not use misinformation to do so.
It seems clear to me you may be lacking in GIS skills (or maybe even basic geography) so I went ahead an overlayed my property on your own map for you. I gave the address out so people could do this exercise themselves but after seeing that you yourself are incapable of this task, I thought I would make it easier for the group and set the record straight. You have defined this region as C class by your own standards. The misinformation is not coming from my end...
0 Reply
Bill F.
Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y
@James Wise I have no dog in this fight and for what's its worth, based off your other posts, your responses to the post (I noticed you aren't a moderator anymore), level of attention to detail, and most importantly your willingness to admit mistakes/seeking improvement I would invest with you. Kudos for handling this situation better than other TK providers who may or may not have been podcast guests.
@Brandon Reinhardt What @Jay Hinrichs wrote wasn't patronizing at all, he shared his opinion. That's what this site is about. Doesn't matter if you have a Masters, MBA, or GED.
We haven't heard a lot about what DD you did besides blaming an agent for the tenants a seller placed in a unit before it sold. Its not the first, nor will it be the last time, that a seller infills units with sub par renters before a sale. Did you estoppel tenants, ask to see their file, run your own credit checks? The repair cost seem in line for any other PM. You will pay some amount of convenience in their fees. Does the communication need work, yes, but that's not a surprising short coming.
Best of luck with your properties
3 Reply
Caleb Heimsoth
Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
8y
I don’t want to comment on HW really but just wanted to say I agree with Jay Hinrichs and Chris Seveney . The rental I bought in Cleveland rents for 750 (two bed room) and most likely will be closer to 800 or slightly above after this next tenant turnover. And is located in a C area. My point is (and I’m definitely not an expert) is that a C area where rents are 550-650 as compared to 700-800 or above is going to attract a different type of tenant, probably lower level C class. My experience so far (again admittedly limited) with my tenants is they are just simple people who want a nice simple place to live in. They mail their rent, don’t use email etc but so far no real issues. So far in my opinion if you’re OOS investor you want to aim for rents of 750 or above and if you’ve got the extra cash, probably 800 or above. At that level (broad generalization) you’re probably going to start attracting professionals and young families more.
3 Reply
Caleb Heimsoth
Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
8y
One final thing I wanted to add In general is that what James Wise said about responding in a day is a good standard to strive for but can’t always be met. The PMs that I’ve used that have been the most responsive typically either have dedicated staff who manage owner relations or only do PM. Someone like HW who does construction, PM, sales etc all in one house is going to have a lot going on. The downside is communication may be poorer but the upside is you theoretically would get better pricing on turnovers and rehabs. Neither argument is bad, it’s just a matter of what’s important to you.
1 Reply

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.