Philadelphia License and Inspection

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Philadelphia License and Inspection

Alyse Oz
Member since 2018 · 60 posts · 10 votes

I purchased a 3 family home in Philadelphia under an LLC (I am the sole owner). The home was not in the best condition, but ok. I think someone lived there before I became owner. The previous owner apparently did not deal with lots of paperwork (permits etc), now I understand why!!!! Dealing with L&I is a nightmare....terrible bureaucracy. My goal is to live in the top unit and rent out the bottom 2 units. I have a contractor and will get the whole place fixed up. The architect came and made the plans, all is good. My contractor said that they went to L&I to get a permit with the plans but was told that the owner has to get rental licenses first. This seemed strange to me and to the contractor, but that's what the guy said. I'm not planning on renting until the place gets fixed up. Strange stuff!!!! Therefore I went to L&I to get the rental license and was told #1 that I needed verification from zoning and #2 that I had to go to the 11th floor to pay some fees for some violations from 2011!!!!! I haven't even gotten to Problem #2, first I want to handle hurdle #1.

I'm not sure what this zoning business is....it's a huge lot and zoned RM1.  From what I gather the previous owner stopped getting rental permits and last got a vacant lot/house in 2015....and stopped doing anything from 2015 on (I suppose he too was tired of dealing with L&I.  One person I spoke with said just get a change of use permit...but I'm not changing use, it was a 3 family house, and it still is.  Another person said it's not needed.  

It just seems like one hurdle after another.  It's my 3rd time there...I finally got the commercial business license stuff sorted out and now this!!!  Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

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Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
6y

Philadelphia has a 311 service that might help; if you are outside the city limits like me, there is a ten digit number to dial to get the city’s 311 service. L&I is no fun to deal with, and waiting in the basement at the Municipal Services Building (MSB) can be quite time consuming.

You have another thing to keep in mind too. Owner is your LLC, so you will need a rental license for all three units - even the one you plan to live in, because you are not the LLC.

You will also get a trash bill, and you might need a monitored fire alarm system, and your building will have to have a smoking policy - well, the requirements never seem to end when you first take on a building within Philadelphia where the previous owner(s) decided to not bother with complying with all the red tape regulations.

I suggest you join HAPCO - they have a manual that you get outlining lots of the seemingly crazy regulations that seem to be constantly changing. Well, they seem to be constantly changing because city council does just that.

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  • Account Closed
    Accountant · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 210 votes
    6y

    I would reach out to my local councilperson constituent services and let them know your issues to see if they can help.  

    Look into hiring an expediter to get your permits. 

    3Reply
  • Kevin MoyerBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 271 posts · 303 votes
    6y

    L&I is a nightmare. Investors I work with are literally leaving the City because of that department. Perfectly habitable apartments to code are vacant because their management, reviewers, and inspectors can't get on the same page. 

    I would first ask to speak to a supervisor at your local L&I office. If that doesn't resolve, I would set up a meeting with your local council rep and explain your situation and how L&I can't provide any clear guidance or expectations. Best of luck, L&I is one of the more frustrating city agencies.

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    4Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y

    Philadelphia has a 311 service that might help; if you are outside the city limits like me, there is a ten digit number to dial to get the city’s 311 service. L&I is no fun to deal with, and waiting in the basement at the Municipal Services Building (MSB) can be quite time consuming.

    You have another thing to keep in mind too. Owner is your LLC, so you will need a rental license for all three units - even the one you plan to live in, because you are not the LLC.

    You will also get a trash bill, and you might need a monitored fire alarm system, and your building will have to have a smoking policy - well, the requirements never seem to end when you first take on a building within Philadelphia where the previous owner(s) decided to not bother with complying with all the red tape regulations.

    I suggest you join HAPCO - they have a manual that you get outlining lots of the seemingly crazy regulations that seem to be constantly changing. Well, they seem to be constantly changing because city council does just that.

    6Reply
  • Joseph ODonovanPro Member
    Property Manager · Ridley, PA · Member since 2017 · 427 posts · 449 votes
    6y

    @Alyse Oz As other's have already stated, L&I is an absolute mess. Personally, I would hire an experienced real estate attorney to navigate you thru this bureaucratic nightmare. Especially considering you may be dealing with a zoning issue as well. While it may cost you more money than you had budgeted, it's well worth not having to deal with that brutal department.

    4Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y

    @Joseph ODonovan - I suggested 311 for a reason. They open a case for you with L&I, and there are deadlines they are supposed to meet once that gets underway. That should at least get the issues identified. If the zoning is not appropriate, and the use has not been maintained to the satisfaction of the city, then the attorney is maybe a next step.

    5Reply
  • Sheryl Sitman
    Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 483 posts · 362 votes
    6y

    In real estate time = money. Mistakes= losing money. Learning this stuff on your own will take a lot of time and will not go smoothly. If you need a referral to an attorney, happy to provide. Focus on what you are good at and use professionals where it makes sense.

    2Reply
  • Alyse Oz
    OP
    Member since 2018 · 60 posts · 10 votes
    6y

    Thank you very much for all your advice!  I will start with the low hanging fruit and call 311.  I will then look into finding affordable expeditors if I need to ( I did a quick google search and found a few).  Can anyone recommend any they know? I’m not sure how a lawyer would come into play at this point.  I don’t want to change any zoning or anything.  It was a 3 family house and it still is (zoned rm1, sits on a double lot over 4000 sq ft)   I just want to pretty it up And rent it out until the area appreciates.  Then Many years down the line,  if and when the area appreciates, I may want to deal with zoning/variance/lawyers and build on the joining lot ( I was told I could build 7 units because the lot is huge).  In fact in the future, Maybe I’ll tear down the current 3 family and Build a 10 unit building.  I need to dream big :)


    again, thanks to everyone for all your wonderful advice!  It’s certainly a challenge to deal with L&I.... I hope I don’t pull my hair out too much!!!! I never thought I’d say this but  I’m tempted to just forget the building permit and just do it without all the needless paperwork.... but I’m too much of a goody-goody.  The City of Philadelphia shouldn’t make it so hard to do the right thing!  I got the requested plans and the licensed contractor and now this!

    1Reply
  • Nathan M.
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 43 votes
    6y

    Hi Alyse,

    This sounds like a very frustrating situation. In your position, I might be inclined to ask for forgiveness rather than permission also. Your contractor may not be willing to run that risk though.

    Did you receive a denial of the building permit in writing? If so, you can appeal to the Board of License and Inspection Review. These people are more likely to actually know what the law requires. Mind you, I doubt this process is timely. In the interest of time, you may want to just get the rental permit. My guess is that you will have to get the change of use permit--it could be that the standard interpretation is that "vacancy" is a different use than "occupancy," and thus it is a change of use to go from being vacant to again being used as a 3-family building. (I would argue that vacany is non-use rather than a change of use, but that's neither here nor there). In any case, if it's simply a change in the order of operations, it doesn't really matter in the end, you have to do all the steps no matter what order you do them in.

    If there's no inspection before the end of construction, you might ask your contractor if he'd be willing to begin the work while you finish going through the permitting maze. It could help your overall timeline.

    A 4000 sf RM-1 property sounds like a great find! What neighborhood is it in?

    2Reply
  • Alyse Oz
    OP
    Member since 2018 · 60 posts · 10 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Nathan M.:

    Hi Alyse,

    This sounds like a very frustrating situation. In your position, I might be inclined to ask for forgiveness rather than permission also. Your contractor may not be willing to run that risk though.

    Did you receive a denial of the building permit in writing? If so, you can appeal to the Board of License and Inspection Review. These people are more likely to actually know what the law requires. Mind you, I doubt this process is timely. In the interest of time, you may want to just get the rental permit. My guess is that you will have to get the change of use permit--it could be that the standard interpretation is that "vacancy" is a different use than "occupancy," and thus it is a change of use to go from being vacant to again being used as a 3-family building. (I would argue that vacany is non-use rather than a change of use, but that's neither here nor there). In any case, if it's simply a change in the order of operations, it doesn't really matter in the end, you have to do all the steps no matter what order you do them in.

    If there's no inspection before the end of construction, you might ask your contractor if he'd be willing to begin the work while you finish going through the permitting maze. It could help your overall timeline.

    A 4000 sf RM-1 property sounds like a great find! What neighborhood is it in?

     It's in West Philadelphia :)  I'm off to L&I again today....to handle these fun issues:)  It's like a puzzle....I think they have serious system issues though.  I'm not sure if anyone else is experiencing it.

    1Reply
  • John L Desimone
    Investor · Philadelphia · Member since 2020 · 17 posts · 18 votes
    6y

    Hello Alyse, 

    Sorry to hear of the problem you are facing with L&I. I too have faced some of the same issues with getting a property ready for the market. Though this was frustrating, time consuming and costly, I learned a lot from this experience and found it a lot easier the second time around as I knew what to expect. 

    I do agree with @SteveBabiak 's advice to start with the 311 and to maybe team up with an experienced RE rental investor in Philadelphia to assist you and answer any questions that you may have. 

    I can assure you are not the only person having issues dealing with Philly's L&I. 


    Hope this helps!

    0Reply
  • Jared Forman
    Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 139 posts · 107 votes
    6y

    In my limited experience dealing with contractors and the city. You need to take everything with a grain of salt. Unless you have personally verified, as fact not work of mouth, that L&I will not issue permits on those context than I would snoop myself. 

    People are lazy and don't like to work. I know that sounds very ignorant, but it is human nature. So get your butt down to JFK Plaza and find out as the property owner. 

    2Reply
  • Joe White
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 515 posts · 196 votes
    6y

    I've had violations written up that were incorrect and the inspector had no idea. They can be considerably undereducated, and sometimes too lazy to do what is required.

    Even after talking to supervisors that specialize in a particular violation (like fire codes), that stated that violations were incorrect, and no such thing exists, nor could be satisfied, you still need to get the inspector that wrote the violation to remove it. Very punishing environment!

    0Reply
  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    First in terms of the violation fees, you should have received a Certification Statement prior to settlement which would have disclosed violations. It would have offered you advanced notice and possibly an opportunity to clear them prior to settlement. Is your Architect willing to submit the permit application? I would highly recommend this, especially given this appears to be more than an EZ permit. As long as the architect has a copy of your GC's insurance, Contractor License & Tax Clearance Certificate he or she should have no issue submitting the permit application. As for the rental license  request,  this is a bit puzzling.  Are you certain a zoning use permit was not requested? Typically a use permit is a prerequisite for a building permit being issued. Based on your comment of it being a large RM1 lot, it appears the parcel likely satisfies the lot area requirement for a 3 Family building. However, if this property was rezoned RM1 recently and was not a legal 3 Family dwelling previously, a zoning permit will certainly be required. I believe your architect should be the person in contact with L&I. 

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