Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information? I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there. To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible. The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it. I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free. I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with: - Paying more than the information is worth - Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information - Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information - Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition - Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information - Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true: 1. The education costs more than it's worth; 2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing; 3. The educator isn't doing it for the money. If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though. The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

I too have followed this with great interest. My first observation is that the level of professionalism in this discussion is generally very high. This is a divisive topic on BP yet, for the most part, both sides were discussed with little rhetoric and without demeaning others. Civility. Online. How novel?! Like @Ned Carey I have spent a significant amount of money on seminars, courses and mentors. I consider every single penny well-spent. My biggest regret is that I didn't seek out education sooner. The costs I incurred trying to do it on my own exceeded what I paid to others. When I say this, I include time, missed opportunities and other opportunity costs in that calculation. In 2009, my house-flipping business hit the wall. My lending sources dried up and I was stuck. After some research, I found a coach/guru to teach be lease-options, subject-to, etc. (Ironically, he was a BP contributor at the time). His system was kind of generic, but it was enough to get me going and he was there when I had questions. I locked up my first deal in about a month and have done dozens since. Could I have found all of the same info on BP? Probably. But the notion that doing so is FREE is absurd. Time is valuable. I had a family and was working a FT job. Those few hours I had to spend each week were precious and I wanted to spend them DOING not LEARNING. Real estate investing is hard. Anyone who says differently is either lying or hasn't done a deal. Having someone to teach you, answer questions, or provide info that saves you from making mistakes is not foolish, in fact, it is a good business decision. You can certainly do it on you own, but I'm not convinced it is "cheaper." The caveat is that you need to be in business. If you don't take action, then the time you spent on BP and the money you paid for the seminars is absolutely wasted.

The problem is that often times those seminars are a sales platform to get you to buy into something much more expensive in order to get information that is being purposefully withheld. I have no issue with people trying to make money by selling info to others, but at the same time the expectation exists that by paying for it, that info better be pretty good. Often times it isn't. I say this as someone who has been to some of those very seminars. In hind sight, the info provided was nothing that was really new or ground breaking. Caveat emptor!

I agree. :) I have no issue at all with paying for good information, problem is, most that is paid for isn't that good. I've had my brain picked for decades for nothing and I think I was very well paid for advice at times in the past. I certainly can't fault anyone being paid to teach or advise, so long as they are qualified to give such advice or teach a subject. The problem is, IMO, there are no set standards for qualification. Anyone with enough of an ego can declare themselves an expert or get a few others to refer to them as experts. The old adage of those who can't do teach is alive and well in RE. As to BP, I'm not sure there could be very much, if anything, that could be explained in a seminar that can't be explained on BP. If it hasn't been addressed, it probably hasn't been asked. You'd have to ask the question in a seminar as well. So, I don't think it's that information is so unique in a seminar or class but that communicating ideas is much easier I can cover more material in a class than typing my tail off in forums. I'll say too that's it's really too bad that I as well as others have to spend so much time addressing bad information planted by the gurus or others here rather than being able to venture off into more detailed subject matter. In a seminar or class, I can control that environment and stay on topic. I spent thousands on my degrees, the only money I ever spent on RE classes was for my license and were due to some diddly class that had to be selected as continued education having a broker/agent license, otherwise I never spent a dime on RE educational materials. I certainly paid attorneys to learn things. :)

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I see great value in this discussion. As a sponsor of two REI clubs with a “no sales” policy, I am often asked if I could recommend any seminars or Guru’s that might provide them with an accelerated learning curve. After I tell them about biggerpockets, I usually tell them to talk to other investors, that are actually doing deals, and ask the same question. I have talked to many wantabe investors that talk the talk, but have not done a deal yet. Until an investor does a deal based on knowledge gained by some program or seminar, they are merely justifying their expenditure. Another thing I tell newbes is to find someone that is doing what you want to do and to find a way to be of assistance to them. Don’t expect a busy investor to stop what they are doing and mentor you. Ask what you can do for them. I agree that most of the participants in most of the seminars out there, will never do anything. They will spend their 5, 10, 20, even 50k and spend the rest of their lives trying to pay it off. The less than 1% that has a strong enough “why” and continues to get educated will be the ones to succeed. Listening to the BP podcasts, the resounding answer to the last question, about why some succeed and others do not, is persistence. I am a product of a guru, that puts on expensive seminars, upsells, and brings in other to try to get you to the back of the room. I have also learned a lot from him and have become good friends with many of the people that traveled in his circle. I am successful, but nowhere near where I want to be. I feel that I am part of that 1% that persisted and did not disappear over the years. I guess what I am trying to say is, spending 50k does not guarantee success, nor does spending hours on BP. I am all for learning from someone else’s mistakes and triumphs. Everyone needs a mentor to speed up the process. That mentor could be BP, a guru, books in the library, or a personal coach. As @Joe Fairless mentioned they need to be ready to learn, and I truly believe that they must have a strong “why”. Why am I spending hours and hours on real estate when I would rather be spending time: with my kids, with my spouse, skiing, watching football, ………………. Real estate is not a get rich quick process, but you can gain wealth over time.

@Matt Buckels - my approach is similar to yours. There are some seminars I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole but others that I have paid to attend and it was worth it. I went to a Rich Dad, Poor Dad 3-day event (I have NO affiliation) and thought it was worth the $300 or so I paid (it's been a long time since I went so don't remember the exact price). I didn't do the crazy expensive up-sell for more specific courses. But then I recommended the 3-day seminar to a couple friends and they said they didn't like it. They didn't have properties and said what they learned was the same stuff they've read in books, etc. Here's my overall thought on it, it depends on where you are as an investor and what the seminar or mentor is offering. For example, I took the 3-day seminar on real estate investing when I needed a good overview of the industry and how to find other ways to invest and make money. I walked in feeling pretty good about myself because I had one investment property at the time. Then, the first thing they said is you won't achieve big-time wealth by buying single family homes. They said I needed to do multi-family or mobile home trailer parks. That changed my life and I immediately went out and learned apt investing. So, looking back on that $300 seminar, it was worth its weight in gold. For the record, I personally now believe you can achieve big-time wealth in most real estate approaches including, of course, single family homes. I've had two paid mentors at very specific times in my real estate career. My first was after I had a couple homes and was looking to take it to the next level. I learned what I needed to learn for 6 months then we went our separate ways. Well worth it. Then I continued to practice what I was taught and when I wanted to get into something new (i.e. buying apts and syndicating deals) I decided I needed a new mentor who could teach me. It's been the best educational investment of my life. But, again, only because I was ready for it and it filled my knowledge gap.

This is a great thread and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just passionate responses about personal belief. I still credit Carlton Sheets for teaching me the ins and outs about real estate back when I purchased his program. He was one of the original gurus...they just called 'em something different back in the day and sold things in a different way. I go to a lot of events that people in this thread would say are guru events. I have seen it all at these events from the good all the way to the really bad. And after having spent a lot of time sometimes as a participant, sometimes as a speaker and sometimes just as an observer, it all boils down to a few things for me. 1. You can get a lot of education and know-how for free. it is everywhere around us and more attainable than at any point in history and tomorrow it will be EVEN MORE attainable. 2. The people who succeed when they purchase products or programs or coaching are going to succeed anyway. What they are paying for ultimately is a shortening of the learning curve. 3. What galls most who are down on the gurus and events and everything else is that some people do not know how to say no and too often the gurus or people selling don't turn them away. It is a free-will society and with free-will some people will spend...freely. That is hard for some observers to take. It just does not sit right, but it happens everyday in everyday situations like car buying, insurance buying, grocery buying, clothes buying, etc..... If people are willing to pay for it, it will be offered and they will be asked if they would like some more. Does not make it right, it is just reality. Lastly, I do believe in coaching and I personally use coaches. I use one for when I work out at the gym. I use one for discussing financial and estate planning topics. I use one for nutrition and over-all health. I gladly people who are smarting than me to help me make good decisions and hold me accountable. They can charge me as many dollars as they like...it is up to me to say no if I decide it is not worth it. SOME, certainly not all, but some of the companies and individuals that I know who would be classified as gurus in this thread are doing nothing more than the same that the gym trainer, nutrition and financial advisers are doing.

I don't think it needs to be free. There is a big difference in value between a day seminar on tax strategies and entities by an RE attorney for $150, and someone offering a seminar with upsell for $600. The attorney is selling the info advertised for the price advertised, he has no book to sell, or if he does it's included in the price of the course. The seminar educator is usually selling motivation with tidbits. The tidbits can be interesting. I'll sit through anybody's free seminar that ends with a sales pitch for materials or mentoring or whatever. But I'm not going to pay to be sold to. You'll hear endlessly that the cost of a $3500 weekend or a $6K mentoring program will be recovered on the first deal. Many RE educators are first and foremost marketing experts. Keep in mind they need you to believe that their fees are just a drop in the bucket of your potential earnings. So their fees can really be anything, since your potential earnings can be anything. :) The other issue is how general a lot of the info will be. Lease options in CA aren't Lease Options in TX. There are laws in place in both states that are totally different that you're probably not going to learn from a national RE educator. Check out carefully what you get for the fee you pay, and check with others who've attended before and find out what they think they got. Know yourself well enough to know whether you need motivation or strategies.

@Jackie Lange " It still amazes me that people on forums trust someone just because they have more posts than anyone else." People don't trust someone solely based on the number of posts one has, they trust them becuase they have consistently given good advice, and become trustworthy. When someone gives bad advice, whether new or experienced, they are held accountable. However; when at a seminar, conference, etc. there's nobody there to hold the speaker accountable, and what they say is left to stand., therefore; hungry new investors can be easily deceived. As I mentioned before, I have no problem with someone that is an expert in a specific area holding a seminar, etc. to teach others, however; there's no one size fits all when it comes to real estate investing, rehabs, etc. Every area of the country is different.

@Wendell De Guzman that's all fine, but "systems" do not make you money, being able to encounter any type of situation, any type of property, in any location in your market and being able to devise your own "system" to solve problems, bring properties to a higher and best use, to fill and satisfy a need, is what makes you money. Not all RE provides an opportunity to make money off of it immediately or even in the near future, being able to identify properties that can makes you money. While you may follow a "system" and you can make money when you get use to that "system" but I can assure you that you are leaving more money on the table than you're making by walking past all the other opportunities that don't fit in that "system". :) A good investor can design a deal, they solve problems, not just property issues but social issues, financial issues, tax issues, regulatory issues and legal issues. Too many folks try to get into RE thinking they are walking into a store and picking up a box of RE strategies. Just go buy it, take it home, open it up, read the instructions then plug it in and tomorrow someone will hand you money. They buy a product to use, like buying a hammer that will make them a craftsman. It's pitiful, just pitiful to hear newbies, especially young people trying to start out to make a living in this world, much less getting wealthy, and referring to guru crap or some technique or system as an education. I've never met a wealthy man who only used a shovel to make money. Even a prospector knows the lay of the land and what to look for and carries other tools in his bag. The reason J. Scott is successful is because he has an education, he understands the basics of RE, he knows the types of deeds and interests that are conveyed, he can value a property, he understands his market and provides a product that fills the needs in demand. He knows the basics very well and applies those fundamentals in what he does. He complies with laws I'm sure and he can deal with people. He can solve problems that arise or knows how to get them solved. I've said it a hundred times, learn the basics of real estate, the flow of a transaction, from putting a for sale sign up to getting your check at closing. Every detail, every function, how other support people provide what they do to make that happen. Know your local customs and the laws that apply to you and your property in buying, selling or holding rentals. Understand what Realtors can and can not do. Learning this stuff in a RE school qualifies as an education. Then you can go to all the seminars, boot camps, buy tapes and whatever the RE pushers have for that day. Difference is, you'll likely avoid the scammers and dumb twits because you know the basics, what can and can't be done and how things are suppose to be done and you can then say.....Ha, that's a bunch of junk or you can say.....that sounds worthwhile, that's a valid strategy. Drug dealers on the corner only sell to those willing to buy their junk who have expectations without really knowing what they are buying. :)

Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:

The upshot is however, not everyone is lucky enough to find a good mentor who is willing to give of their time to teach.

That's the reason why people aren't "lucky" at finding mentors...they are looking for someone to teach them something. That's not what mentors are for.

Mentors don't teach -- they do something much, much, much more valuable...

Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)

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Brian Gibbons

Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes

11y

@Bill G.

Great post.

Death Taxes and Change are guaranteed.

Adapt or Die.

1 Reply

Anthony H.

New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 14 posts · 9 votes

11y

I don't think legit seminars have to be free. I also don't think they need to be exorbitantly expensive, either.

I've been to one seminar, free, which was merely a basic info, get 'em salivating upsell to a crowd of wide eyed hopefuls with eager pen and pad. Funneling them into the "real" seminar with the "really good info" was the only goal. Which is all one can expect when it's free I suppose...

For beginners (which I am), I think the best place to start are trustworthy books that are highly recommended here on bp and other places online. The staples. Not the get rich quick books. Not the guru books with huge, confident, smiling faces plastered on the covers. Once one has a decent foundation of rei knowledge, then they can consider any appropriate, legit seminars. But the thing is, for beginners at least, until there is that sound foundation, you don't really know which seminars are legit and which are just massive upsells/waste of time. They can all look good and necessary. The problem with seminars is that they prey on the naive and ignorant. What seasoned, successful, 30 yr re investor goes to some guru seminar? I suspect none.

For the experienced investors... I think they're in a better position to know what a good seminar actually is and one just trying to take advantage. It's the newbies that get taken which is my issue with them. Seminars are not inherently bad in and of themselves and the good ones deserve fair compensation. They just attract a slimey crowd of snake oil salesman who know how to sell the dream.

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Todd Heitner

Specialist · Huntingdon, PA · Member since 2014 · 160 posts · 59 votes

11y

Wow, you've created a monster! :) Nine pages of replies and counting. It caught my attention because I've thought the same thing.

It's not just seminars, but it seems like any resource in general - books, courses, services, etc. For example, because of my business, I've seen quite a few people asking about websites, like 'is this service or that service worth the money,' and the majority of people always come back and say to try to do everything yourself, go the free route for everything, etc. But I've seen the same thing with books and courses. The majority of responses tend to be along the lines of 'don't pay for anything, try to get everything for free.'

I agree that if you're getting value from something, it's worth paying for. It's an investment in yourself. I pay for books and courses regularly. However, I definitely agree that there are a lot of scams out there and you have to be careful.

I went to one REI seminar a few years back where everyone there paid at least $10K (fortunately I was invited as a free guest). The whole weekend was just a pitch fest for a bunch of random things. One presenter would give advice that completely contradicted what another presenter said. At the end of it, all the people who paid to be there were more confused than when they arrived. I felt bad for everyone, especially knowing that most of those people put it on their credit cards. Just yesterday I was reading a post from someone who spent $30K on a seminar and still had no idea what to do or how to start investing. Crazy.

I think if you're just starting out and don't have general information about investing and the different techniques, you should not pay that kind of money, regardless of what's being promised. I say do a little research online to get familiar with what the different techniques of investing are and decide which one you want to focus on. Then buy a course that is highly spoken of. You can easily get all the knowledge you need for a couple hundred dollars. Then go do some deals using that knowledge.

Only after you've done at least a deal or two and have some income should you consider investing big bucks in a seminar, and only then if you've done your homework and talked to other people who have gone and know that it's going to teach you the specific information that will take you to the next level.

But again, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't invest in your REI education. Yes, there is some good information for free, but it tends to be scattered here and there and you have to piece it together yourself. If you have absolutely no money, fine, go that route. But I have no problem paying someone to give me the information I need in an organized, structured manner that makes it easy to digest and put the pieces together. That takes time and work, so someone should be compensated for that.

It does irritate me when someone asks for feedback on a particular service, product, seminar, etc. and people respond who have no experience with it and say not to buy it, just because it costs money. That's annoying. And I know that most of the people saying that have not done a single deal. So if you haven't bought whatever it is and you're not successful, why are you giving advice?

Multiple times I've replied to posts like that to disagree with someone saying things like that. I think maybe that's the solution. People are always going to say stuff like that. But if no one steps up and gives a conflicting opinion, people may assume it's accurate. If you speak up and say 'I disagree because...' then it gives people reading it another perspective and they can decide for themselves which makes the most sense.

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Max Kim

Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 24 posts · 14 votes

11y

I haven't ever sold a guru course or anything. One of my friends asked me to mentor him, which I did for free. I don't need the money, and I have the credentials to teach a guru course. We went through the basics, and I showed him houses that he could buy and make money on. He chickened out after about 3 months, but he called me 2 years later if I could help him, which I declined. I could make a lot working as a corporate/commercial real estate lawyer, but this is more fun. I agree that there are some niche areas that would be worth paying to learn about, but the guru pitches that you have to raise your credit card limits are a scam. If you have to finance it on a credit card, then you probably should try to learn for free on this site or work for someone even if it were free labor.

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Josh Eitingon

Rental Property Investor · Massapequa, NY · Member since 2015 · 148 posts · 51 votes

11y

The company that I work for is a coaching company. Having been to a bunch of the previews and 3 day bootcamps, I completely understand how they are sometimes seen with a bit of a stigma. I began as a client of elite apartment coaching after attending one of their seminars and definitely have no regrets. We do sell a coaching program but, do not push it (we truly hate the companies that will have people that can't afford it do credit card payments, etc.) Everyone leaves with an incredible amount of value and I think our reputation reflects that. For the cost of the weekend, I think it is a no-brainer investment in your own education.

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David Dachtera

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Max Kim:

I haven't ever sold a guru course or anything. One of my friends asked me to mentor him, which I did for free. I don't need the money, and I have the credentials to teach a guru course. We went through the basics, and I showed him houses that he could buy and make money on. He chickened out after about 3 months, but he called me 2 years later if I could help him, which I declined. I could make a lot working as a corporate/commercial real estate lawyer, but this is more fun. I agree that there are some niche areas that would be worth paying to learn about, but the guru pitches that you have to raise your credit card limits are a scam. If you have to finance it on a credit card, then you probably should try to learn for free on this site or work for someone even if it were free labor.

Max,

Please reconsider mentoring your friend who came back after two years. Chances are, something in his life has changed. Make clear that you'll waste no time with him and be clear about what you expect from him. If he can't live up to it, then it's his fault - and make that clear to him upon parting ways.

Indeed - that nonsense about raising your credit card limits is just that: nonsense. My investing group has a nationally known credit expert who can explain the right way to go about getting funding either through your own personal credit or credit in your business entity(-ies).

I can't really say much more without violating the forum's TOS, so I'll stop there.

DISCLOSURE: I am affiliated with an on-line real estate investing education provider.

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Rodney Miller

Lender · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2017 · 138 posts · 130 votes

9y

Personally, when I was starting out I paid thousands upon thousands of dollars on seminars ranging from how to flip houses, understanding notes and mortgages, to IRA Investing, etc....Yes sometimes there are up-sells at many of these seminars. Bid deal, don't buy if it doesn't make sense. It's made me a well rounded investor and I made some invaluable contacts and friendships with other investors across the nation. I am currently spending money on Multi-family seminars and coaching because I want to speed up the learning curve and make contacts in that arena. That being said, choose wisely because there is a lot of crap out there. I'd love to name names but don't want to get sued.

1 Reply

Ken Rishel

Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes

9y

Originally posted by @Anthony H.:

I don't think legit seminars have to be free. I also don't think they need to be exorbitantly expensive, either.

The problem with costs that my company encounters is as follows:

The company (Rishel Consulting Group) has to pay every instructor to be there and pay their travel expenses to get and stay there. On some workshops, we have as many as six specialists there. If we need a tax attorney with real credentials on deferring taxes on a captive finance situation, then we need a proven tax attorney not some speaker "who is sure he/she knows the law".

The cost of renting a conference room is often high and if the class size is deliberately limited because of learning standards each participant has to stand their share of the cost. Since we are actually teaching people how to do things rather than promoting some pie in the sky get rich quick scheme, classes are often limited to ten people and never exceed 30 people.

Because of the nature of what we teach, most of these workshops have to be constantly updated including the handout materials. This often adds up to a week or more of two people's time invested (and paid) prior to the workshop. When doing a completely new workshop, as we have recently done for Fair Housing, we have both large attorney fees and months of preparation involved. We have to recover that money over a period of several years and numerous workshops which also add to the cost.

The cost of serving food at these workshops is almost unbelievable and many hotels require they cater any food or drink in the room. With a can of pop going for $7.00 and a cup of coffee going for $5.00 and breakfasts going for $20.00 and lunch at $35.00 per person these costs add up fast! It is not unusual for us to spend over $100.00 per day on every participant.

All of our workshops distribute 100s of pages of handouts as resources or forms to each participant. In some we need wire bound workbooks to be used during class. All of this adds up as well.

Finally, we have to pay a full time employee to send out emails and make telephone calls to even fill the seats. Since many people are either unwilling or unable to make all the phone calls, people who are reliable and successful don't come cheap either.

So, if a company sends an employee to our Fair Housing workshop we need to charge (currently) $500 to make it worth our while. If we don't we have no reason to even offer it. We have one workshop on raising capital to make loans with that is a five day affair that we charge $10,000.00 to attend but is limited to existing customers or clients. If that sounds outrageous, so be it. We live and die on our reputation with our former and current customers and clients and we have never had anyone ever ask for their money back even though we offer to do so with every workshop we do.

Maybe this explains why costs can seem high to some prospective attendees, but, in fact, are not.

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Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

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