Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes

Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information?

I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there.

To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible.

The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it.

I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free.

I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with:

- Paying more than the information is worth

- Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information

- Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information

- Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition

- Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information

- Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful

I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true:

1. The education costs more than it's worth;

2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing;

3. The educator isn't doing it for the money.

If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though.

The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
    Some will be well-served to pay someone to train them.  Hell - I pay $500/month for my kid's Kumon.  Why - it's not like I couldn't teach them math and reading?  However - these people are better, and I want the best for my kids, so I pay!

    I'm not at all arguing that some people will be well-served to pay for a coach or training (I'm a big fan of paid coaching when done ethically).  Let me quote what I said earlier in this thread:

    If someone wants to argue with me on the above, I'm happy to.  But, I'm not looking to argue that all training must or should be free (I've never said that).  All that said, I will argue that all training can be free, and most people probably don't need paid training.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
    Some will be well-served to pay someone to train them.  Hell - I pay $500/month for my kid's Kumon.  Why - it's not like I couldn't teach them math and reading?  However - these people are better, and I want the best for my kids, so I pay!

    I'm not at all arguing that some people will be well-served to pay for a coach or training (I'm a big fan of paid coaching when done ethically).  Let me quote what I said earlier in this thread:

    If someone wants to argue with me on the above, I'm happy to.  But, I'm not looking to argue that all training must or should be free (I've never said that).  All that said, I will argue that all training can be free, and most people probably don't need paid training.

    Hmm, I think I have to disagree that, because with internet and technology a real estate teacher can make a lot more than a great real estate investor. There is also a lot less risk involved and the income can be more passive. I think that it is a misconception if someone is teaching that they couldn't make it in real estate or they obviously don't need to teach if they were such a great investor.  

    Disclaimer, I have a coaching program, but I don't make as much investing from it or my real estate sales team. There is definitely potential too. I know many people online making hundreds of thousands a year or even more on real estate education programs. Some good, some not so good. The trick is taking the time to initially create an awesome program and once that initial time investment is done, it is little work after that even with conference calls and email coaching. 

    It can bring in decent income that is mostly passive, which real estate investors know all about! There is one more factor that you may not be considering. It is fun to create something that helps people and adds value. I think @Ben Leybovich can attest to this, but getting emails from people who you help is a great feeling. Even the emails that come from free information I put out there. :) And there are many investors currently investing and who offer education. I always say it is best to find someone local to mentor you, but that is not always possible. 

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mark Ferguson:
    Hmm, I think I have to disagree that, because with internet and technology a real estate teacher can make a lot more than a great real estate investor. There is also a lot less risk involved and the income can be more passive. I think that it is a misconception if someone is teaching that they couldn't make it in real estate or they obviously don't need to teach if they were such a great investor.  

    Yup, I agree with you.  And I apologize that I didn't clarify a couple things...

    First, there are two distinct types of educator I've seen -- one that shoots for relatively low volume, high cost; the other that shoots for relatively low cost, high volume.  With lower cost training, there is less risk to the buyer (both of disappointment and lack of value in training).  With higher cost training, there is more risk (both of disappointment and lack of value in training).

    Additionally, the lower cost training is more likely to come with some level of guarantee in my experience (money back if not satisfied, for example).  For those reasons, I tend not to have as much of an issue with the lower-cost stuff.

    In other words, all I care about is that the education provides two things:

    1.  Value

    2.  Guarantee that what was promised was delivered

    If you provide both of those things, I don't care if you charge $10 or $10M...

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Mark Ferguson:
    Hmm, I think I have to disagree that, because with internet and technology a real estate teacher can make a lot more than a great real estate investor. There is also a lot less risk involved and the income can be more passive. I think that it is a misconception if someone is teaching that they couldn't make it in real estate or they obviously don't need to teach if they were such a great investor.  

    Yup, I agree with you.  And I apologize that I didn't clarify a couple things...

    First, there are two distinct types of educator I've seen -- one that shoots for relatively low volume, high cost; the other that shoots for relatively low cost, high volume.  With lower cost training, there is less risk to the buyer (both of disappointment and lack of value in training).  With higher cost training, there is more risk (both of disappointment and lack of value in training).

    Additionally, the lower cost training is more likely to come with some level of guarantee in my experience (money back if not satisfied, for example).  For those reasons, I tend not to have as much of an issue with the lower-cost stuff.

    In other words, all I care about is that the education provides two things:

    1.  Value

    2.  Guarantee that what was promised was delivered

    If you provide both of those things, I don't care if you charge $10 or $10M...

     For sure. The funny thing is very few people ask for their money back with a guarantee unless it is a really crappy product. There are a few that ask for money back who are just looking for something for free no matter how good the product was. If something does not have a guarantee it usually means it isn't worth much and the educators know they aren't delivering real value. 

  • Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    You've mischaracterized (purposefully or not) several points I've made.  I'll ignore most of them, as I'm not skilled enough to debate with someone who won't stay on topic...

    If I have mischaracterized, it wasn't deliberate. Perhaps what I thought I understood your point to be wasn't what you trying to communicate. Sorry.

    But, I will address these two points...

    First, I thought it was fairly obvious that by "free," we've been discussing lack of payment in a fiat currency.  I don't believe you'll find a person in this world who would argue that an education can be had without some investment -- at a minimum, an investment of time and effort.  I think it's highly unlikely that you really believed anyone here was arguing otherwise, making your previous post mostly just a distraction from the topic at hand.

    What I keep reading is the word "free". And yes, I have read the writings of many people here on Bigger Pockets that believe that other people should lay out chapter and verse for them without any investment on their part except their internet connection and their query. Of course, it is in a different sub forum that this one. 

    We're discussing whether payment is needed for adequate real estate education, not whether a time/effort investment is required.  I'm happy to cede the fact that time and effort are always going to be required; now let's get back to the topic of whether real estate can be learned without paying a fee.

    Now, I freely admit to being out of my depth. The only real estate I have ever made money investing in are manufactured home land-lease communities and farms. I have lost money with every office building and apartment building I have ever owned, and in every single family home I have ever rented out or sold. I also admit, I have never had enough interest to even try to acquire an adequate real estate education, however that is defined. I actually thought the question Matt posed was more general in nature, and not specific to real estate education. I have no idea what even constitutes a proper real estate education.

    I grew up on a farm as previously mentioned and learned what I needed as I grew up, and had a number of great mentors when it came to MH land-lease communities, as well as hiring consultants and coaches for several years to avoid costly mistakes.

    My consultancy, to clarify for those who do not know, is limited to legal, compliance, operations, and sustainability issues related to chattel finance operations that finance manufactured homes. We, meaning myself and our employees, train Underwriters, Collectors, and Compliance Officers as well as educating ownership and upper management in issues related to the general operation. We also audit loan portfolios for compliance and value, raise capital for loans, supply personnel from our staff on a temporary basis, guide clients through licensing issues, etc.

    None of what we do even remotely approaches what apparently you believe to be the focus of this discussion. Again, I apologize for any misunderstandings.  

  • Real Estate Investor · Saskatoon, Saskatchewan · Member since 2010 · 357 posts · 27 votes
    11y

    I believe in education. We all eventually pay for education either upfront (willfully) or at the back end (losing money due to lack of education). 

    I also fully understand that there are charlatan gurus out there however, there are good ones as well (disclaimer I am not pushing any guru nor do I have books to sell).  

    There is a quote that mentioned that your highest ability is earning power and your greatest resource is time. With the right education in real estate (upfront cost) you can achieve both of these in a shorter time than other way round. You can use education to "shrink" the time needed for you to achieve your goals. Right upfront education is like a SUCCESS TIME MACHINE.

    One more thing, I said education.... not just real estate knowledge .. but mindset & personal development and business skillset education. You can acquire ALL the needed real estate education ... without daily education on how to develop the mindset of the type of person that achieve such goals you will not be able to take action. This is the secret that separates those that takes action from those that have become seminar junkies without taking action. 80% to 90% of our success in MENTAL (mindset).

    Hope this helps.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
    I have lost money with every office building and apartment building I have ever owned, and in every single family home I have ever rented out or sold. I also admit, I have never had enough interest to even try to acquire an adequate real estate education, however that is defined.

    Look, real estate isn't for everyone, and most people who try to become investors aren't successful -- with or without education.  Most people fail at this business, and my guess is that almost all people who say things like, "I have never had enough interest to even try to acquire an adequate real estate education," are going to fail.

    It's not that the business is difficult; it's not. In fact, residential real estate is easy. But, it takes hard work. If you're not motivated enough to at least read through the forums, pick up a book, go to a REIA event to network, take a couple other investors to lunch, etc., it's not likely you're going to be successful.

    Based on your comment above, had you paid $50K for a seminar or coach, you still wouldn't have been successful at office buildings, apartment buildings or residential real estate.  It hard to be successful at something you're not interested in...even if it really is easy.

    And again, for those that have the interest, motivation, work ethic and half-a-brain, residential real estate is pretty simple...

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
    I have lost money with every office building and apartment building I have ever owned, and in every single family home I have ever rented out or sold. I also admit, I have never had enough interest to even try to acquire an adequate real estate education, however that is defined.

    Look, real estate isn't for everyone, and most people who try to become investors aren't successful -- with or without education.  Most people fail at this business, and my guess is that almost all people who say things like, "I have never had enough interest to even try to acquire an adequate real estate education," are going to fail.

    It's not that the business is difficult; it's not. In fact, residential real estate is easy. But, it takes hard work. If you're not motivated enough to at least read through the forums, pick up a book, go to a REIA event to network, take a couple other investors to lunch, etc., it's not likely you're going to be successful.

    Based on your comment above, had you paid $50K for a seminar or coach, you still wouldn't have been successful at office buildings, apartment buildings or residential real estate.  It hard to be successful at something you're not interested in...even if it really is easy.

    And again, for those that have the interest, motivation, work ethic and half-a-brain, residential real estate is pretty simple...

    Jason, sounds like you're getting a bit testy, I don't think that is what Ken meant literally, no one buys something they have no interest in. Many find that after they buy RE that it's not the best use of their time and many lose interest, there is nothing wrong with that, as you said, RE isn't for everyone.

    If you think residential properties are easy, I might suggest that your exposure in different areas of residential may be limited, it's not always easy, you may avoid many problem properties that most others would avoid, but my experience has been that I didn't always have the luxury of avoiding issues down the road. I doubt too many who basically fix a flip need to get involved very deeply into estate problems, minor subdivisions, running low mod housing ventures, solving title issues between feuding family members or fighting some insurer over a total loss making them pay up. Just saying, some areas are easy, not all areas of residential investing or operations are easy and something that anyone with half a brain can do just because they are motived. Let's also realize that those of us with advanced degrees have a different view of what "easy" might be.

    I never learned anything from forums when I was blowing and going, we didn't have forums. I also never attended a seminar on how to in RE, never attended an REI meeting in my life, I did attend Realtor meetings that were more boring than watching the time-temp sign at the bank change. I did buy a few lunches, networking is the key, but I never bought a guru book or program in my life.

    I never really busted my tail in RE either (not saying I didn't sweat working) saying that my dealings were rather casual, I wasn't in really heavy until I left FDIC and into lending. Reason is primarily because I get bored easily and my time was better spent on financing than hammering, but I certainly used a hammer. I was also lucky in having stepping stones laid in front of me along a very profitable path, just saying, it's not all motivation, research, but a combination of efforts and talents.

    My work ethic was really developed from my military experience, it's a war out there and I agree that investors in RE need to be self motivated types. Many times I had to fight through burn out dealing with the public and other types in the industry. It takes more than half a brain, LOL, it really takes both sides and above average intelligence.

    I always view the "it's easy" pitch as being given by those of above average abilities and usually they is some benefit in the public believing that, be it a seminar to attend, a book, a mentor program or whatever. I don't think I'd take on mentoring the average guy pushing carts at Wally World who doesn't have a high school education, many need better preparation before getting into RE, IMO they are prime targets for the guru types. I agree with you, RE isn't for everyone, but it's not always easy either.

    You're much smarter than most, well educated and driven to succeed, you're a risk taker, analytical and while some aspects of wisdom evolves over time, you're well ahead of the game.  :)        

  • Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
    11y

    I'm not sure this is not beating the horse to death, but what I am getting out of this discussion that is directly to the question Matt originally asked is:

    • There is considerable fear that if one attends a seminar that they will not "get their money's worth", in that what is shared will be general, and otherwise easily obtained, information.
    • That the presenter, or presenters, will not know as much about the topic as the attendees and/or the presenter is, in some ways, a failure or they would not "waste their time doing seminars".
    • Some people are "penny-wise and pound foolish" when it comes to investing in their business. They are more comfortable investing hours and hours of their time to come up with mediocre answers than investing money in the solutions they need.

    All of these have merit, but...

    Apparently in the real estate investment business, there are many unqualified people teaching preposterous get rich quick and easy schemes that may not work as a way of making a living.

    However, as a counterpoint, Lonnie Skruggs developed seminars and materials that made many, many people quite a bit of money until the SAFE Act and the Dodd-Frank Act made his methods illegal without considerable investment into licenses and compliance management systems that were too expensive for a small operator.

    The way Rishel Consulting Group is organized, most of our teaching staff have years of experience in what they teach, or consult on, and many are still working in the areas they teach in. 

    Frank Rolfe and Dave Reynolds have a manufactured housing boot camp that is manned by instructors all of whom either work directly in the industry for Frank and Dave in their large operation of operating or owning manufactured housing communities, or they are operators themselves of manufactured housing communities known to Frank and Dave.

    So, while unscrupulous seminar folk exist, there are also many, many individuals or firms that do offer real value. Rather than simply stating that seminars have no value, people would be better off learning to separate the good from the bad, and then figuring out where the holes are in their knowledge base, and looking for someone qualified to help fill that hole.

    Now to another point that was limitedly addressed in some of the posts.

    Some people need more help than others making use of the information they get out of a seminar or even a workshop for attending to have any real value to them.

    Bill Carr of RainMaker Consulting has the A List of manufactured housing retailers as clients, and he has had them for years. He holds frequent meetings in the form of 20 Groups and other formats for which he charges real money, and he rarely holds them in inexpensive venues. In addition to attending his meetings, they all pay him big additional money on an ongoing basis, which some here would sneeringly call "upselling". He recognizes that, in order for his clients to be successful, he needs to hold their hand on an ongoing basis because otherwise, they would not take the necessary next steps to actuate what they learned. I have to believe he has a valid point because out of the top 100 manufactured housing retailers in the United States, 80 of them are retainer clients of his and have been for some time. 

    The truth is, many people that complain about seminars they have attended needed that handholding. Because they did not get it, they wasted their time and money in attending by not following through on their own and, as a result, did not get the desired results.

    This is a danger for both presenters and attendees, and it is difficult to know who needs what for both. It is also difficult for an attendee to walk up the presenter and offer to pay for additional help.

    Given what Rishel Consulting Group does in the way of workshops, we have three where this is a potential problem. We have one for people who are interested in setting up a captive finance company they own to handle their seller finance efforts. About 30% of the attendees need no more help that what they get at this three day workshop to get their operations up and running. The other 70% are going to need some additional measure of help from us to succeed. About 85% of that 70% do contract with us for whatever additional help they need. A very few never get their operation up and running, and those are the ones who might feel the workshop was not worth their attending. 

    The question is, "Whose fault is it that a small percentage of our attendees to that program do not truly benefit from attending, RCG's or the attendee's? Because a small percentage don't actuate, is that a reason to condemn workshops we do, or workshops in general? I don't think so, but others might.

    We have another workshop on capital acquisition for funds to lend that runs five days, and has considerable after the workshop consulting and assistance built in to the price to attend. We refuse attendance to over 60% of the people who ask to attend in order to make sure that the people who do attend are capable of doing what we teach. We have 100% success with this workshop. Screening is the answer, but if someone is only charging someone $1,000 or less for a seminar, the time and effort we put into that screening isn't practical. (If it was, we would do for our Captive Finance Workshops as well.) It should be the job of the person spending the money to be honest with themselves about their abilities and their capabilities before attending.  Personal Responsibility?

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 605 posts · 103 votes
    11y

    I would go to a seminar and gladly pay for it, I just don't like high pressure sales and I don't like when you are not given all the information up front.  A lot of the seminars use a bait and switch approach, where you pay a small amount for the first Tier of information and networking...then just get lured into paying for the next Tier.  Some people find the information useful I find it expensive for the amount of knowledge and learning provided.  I guess as long as you use the information you paid for and implement the techniques then that is beneficially for you.  Ultimately we do live in a capitalistic society so everyone can make a profit no matter how small or big.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Cookeville, TN · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 948 votes
    11y

    @Matt B.

    I got started with mostly free info from the internet.  But I also bought and read a good number of books.  Now, for some reason a lot of newbies will fork over money on Amazon for a book, but they think it's not good to pay a little money for a seminar.  Not sure why that is.  And to answer one of your questions specifically - yes, you can probably learn all that you need to know for free right here.  But that doesn't mean that all of the available information is here.  Probably sufficient information, but not ALL of it.  For example - there's one technique in particular that I use to find good deals, and I've never seen anyone talk about it here on BP.  Actually, I've Google searched it and can't find anyone talking about it on the internet anywhere at all.  Will I give this info out for free here on BP?  Nope, sorry.  Would I coach someone in how to carry out this particular technique?  Yes, but only if they are paying.  Does that someone make me a bad person or a huckster or shyster?  Nope.  Does it make me a "guru"?  I don't know.  Is the information valuable?  I think so, seeing as how I used this particular technique to locate about 1/2 of the properties that I've bought since 2008.  Well, it's valuable to me at least.

  • Rental Property Investor · Shakopee, MN · Member since 2015 · 985 posts · 374 votes
    11y

    Everyone learns differently.

    For me I didn't want to spend thousands of dollars on something when everything I need can be found for free.  Either here at BP or getting books from the library.

    I can't justify the cost and for me if I lose interest at least I didn't spend a bunch of money to find out it wasn't for me.

  • Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Brent Paul:

    Everyone learns differently.

    For me I didn't want to spend thousands of dollars on something when everything I need can be found for free.  Either here at BP or getting books from the library.

    I can't justify the cost and for me if I lose interest at least I didn't spend a bunch of money to find out it wasn't for me.

     It seems to me that providers that are sincerely interested in providing value, should do some serious screening of possible attendees. It is certainly our policy to try to assure any attendee will, in fact, extract enough benefit from what we teach to more than justify what we charge.

    I reiterate my earlier post. Some things can be learned on the internet, but other things cannot. My son who is graduating from medical school this month has spent years in college and medical school and I have spent a great deal of money paying for it. Would you suggest he should have just gone to the library and used the internet to learn to be a physician? The same is true of many, many, other areas as well.  

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
    Some things can be learned on the internet, but other things cannot. My son who is graduating from medical school this month has spent years in college and medical school and I have spent a great deal of money paying for it. Would you suggest he should have just gone to the library and used the internet to learn to be a physician? The same is true of many, many, other areas as well.  

    Would you send your son to an unaccredited medical school to learn how to be a doctor?  If you had a medical emergency, would you go to a doctor who attended an unaccredited medical school?

    Assuming no to both those answers above, how exactly are you comparing the value of an unaccredited real estate program to medical school?

    And btw, there are lots of successful real estate investors who have never spent a lot of money learning the business.  I don't know too many doctors who can say the same thing.  So, your analogy is a horrible one.

  • Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
    Some things can be learned on the internet, but other things cannot. My son who is graduating from medical school this month has spent years in college and medical school and I have spent a great deal of money paying for it. Would you suggest he should have just gone to the library and used the internet to learn to be a physician? The same is true of many, many, other areas as well.  

    Would you send your son to an unaccredited medical school to learn how to be a doctor?  If you had a medical emergency, would you go to a doctor who attended an unaccredited medical school?

    Assuming no to both those answers above, how exactly are you comparing the value of an unaccredited real estate program to medical school?

    Perhaps the problem with this thread is that it is too general and too encompassing so respondents are making blanket statements when their responses need to be more specific. Frankly, I have no experience with "real estate programs", accredited or otherwise that are not manufactured home industry specific. I am so ignorant of these programs I did not even know there were accreditation mechanisms for them. So, no, I am not trying to make that specific comparison.

    There are three paid attendance programs I am aware of that are specific to manufactured housing real estate acquisition. One (Frank & Dave) of them does a very good job of helping people understand the basics of what they need to know to locate, conduct due diligence on, and purchase 1-3 star land lease manufactured housing communities. (They do not attempt to teach on 4-5 star communities which they do not own or operate.) 

    Another is a total waste of time. 

    The third is an introduction to a highly specialized program for using federal government backed funds to purchase and/or rehab manufactured housing communities. While much of the information in the third program is publicly available via the internet, the only people I have known that have been able to actuate this program in the last 20 years successfully are either people who have attended Ed Hick's program or have hired Rod Knoll as a consultant to help them through their program. 

    George Allen does short unpaid programs at state and national trade association events, and hosts the International Networking Roundtable as a paid annual event. (This year in San Diego - September 9-11) He is also available as a consultant on issues that  relate to manufactured housing land lease communities. He also offers a paid attendance training program for hired community managers and newbie owners.

    For those involved in retailing manufactured homes, Bill Carr of RainMaker Consulting runs 20 Groups for the very experienced as well as a cornucopia of other programs for everyone else. RainMaker also offers specific consulting services and through a sister company, software for retailers. 

    If the day to day running of a manufactured housing community is presenting challenges to ownership, Michael Powers does a number of paid programs as well as providing consulting services.

    Our company, Rishel Consulting Group, have many task specific paid attendance training programs that relate to one area or another of the chattel finance of manufactured homes. Much of our training incorporates all of the state and federal regulations that apply to the tasks being performed, as well as task specific training. 

    I seriously doubt that anyone could simply use the internet and or libraries to duplicate for free what any of the above individuals charge for. I also know from experience that people that try to duplicate what our company offers in that manner usually just give up because of the complexity of the subject.

    Again, I think that respondents to this thread need to be specific in what they like or dislike. I cannot comment on seminars dealing with "flipping homes" because I have never attended one, and only know what I have seen on late night TV when they talk about learning how to become a billionaire in your underwear at the kitchen table. Given that I would never sit at my dining room table in my underwear, I likely will never attend or become a billionaire. (Time for a little humor.) 

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Ken Rishel always delivers great content 

    Ask @Bill Gulley

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
    There are three paid attendance programs I am aware of that are specific to manufactured housing real estate acquisition. One (Frank & Dave) of them does a very good job of helping people understand the basics of what they need to know to locate, conduct due diligence on, and purchase 1-3 star land lease manufactured housing communities. (They do not attempt to teach on 4-5 star communities which they do not own or operate.) 
    ....

    I seriously doubt that anyone could simply use the internet and or libraries to duplicate for free what any of the above individuals charge for. 

    I highly disagree.  I know several folks who specialize in purchasing mobile home parks and manufactured housing communities.  They are all self-taught...and very successful at it.

    While some people may not have the motivation and intelligence to self-learn these things, to say that you seriously doubt anyone can learn real estate on their own is just ridiculous.  I know self-taught real estate investors in many niches...real estate isn't rocket science...

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    I don't mean to throw gas on a fire, but I have to agree with Ken as being the most correct.

    I know some MH operators who have been successful, one with an 8th grade education, and how do we measure success? Before you can gauge success, you need a track record, the longer the better to set aside some luck bloat who nailed a few good deals in ten years, that is nothing in a profession. How you make money is as important to "success" as how much you "made" or "took".

    Can't really gauge the old timers by the same standards today either. In the old days, anyone who did a lease purchase on a MH and threw $500 in it, then charged $5,000 may have been seen as an astute operator, today they can be predatory and operating illegally.

    RE is not rocket science, however, real estate today is more complicated than it was even 5 years ago, more so than 10 and 20 years ago.

    Doctors, Attorneys, CPAs, Engineers, Rocket Scientists, Finance professionals....I could go on.....all attend continuing education by qualified accredited instructors. Realtors are required to take Cont. Ed. but that's pretty lose as they can select credit hours of some mickey mouse courses just getting by. Investors, folks here, they are not required to do squat and most don't in areas of compliance, law, construction, engineering, finance or accounting and taxation, they pretty much rely on others.

    Legit seminars are not only a great source of good information, they may well be the only source. I attended NAHRO conferences, macro and micro real estate subjects taught or discussed by experts and specialists unknown to the guru world, no one will learn multi-family off the internet or out of anyone's book like they may at such conferences. You may sink several thousands in attending a national conference. I talked about non-profit organizations in collaboration with government in funding housing, I know good and well it's not on the internet as a class for instruction. might be mentioned, but not in detail. It would take years to find the ins and outs of some funding alternatives like the Section 42 Tax Credit financing and projects.

    I can't call renting 5 houses out as being overly successful in real estate, or buying and selling 20 properties using the same method each time. I can call it making a living or an additional income. Getting over the amateur hump in real estate takes professional training, education and experience, you aren't going to get that all accomplished on the internet. 

    How many members here have been hunting and pecking key boards for over a year and still haven't cut a deal or understand real estate? How many have been following guru ploys and taking guru type seminars and still don't understand real estate? I can read the questions asked here, so it's rather clear to me.  Some are even trying to teach real estate and tactics and they don't have a clue either.

    The issue here is the type of training available to investors, most of it is from very bad to poor, real estate education is a business, an unregulated one at that except for licensees, full of marketing types who provide a product selling a dream rather than reality. Knowing that, students should be doing their due diligence as to their education.

    No pain, no gain, no risk, no reward, no real education and ignorance prevails, only the strong survive, the weak get eaten, the naïve get taken, doers win and dreamers lose. That's pretty much real estate. The only way you can get something for nothing is playing guitar on MTV!  :)  

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Bill G.

    You know I was a CFP - Estate planner, Series 6 63, CLU, etc, 

    ETHICS and FAIR DEALING was always a concern in my business.  

    For example, 

    Take a permanent life insurance policy, there are many uses for them vs term.  Malcolm Forbes on his death bed, said he could never own enough life insurance for estate taxes.

    See http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-04/business/fi...

    But what about ethics of the advisor? 

    If you are a real estate advisor - agent - broker - you have a duty of care that serves the seller first if you are a listing agent.  That includes looking at all ways that a legal and prudent to solve problems of home sales.

    Re CE, I love CCIMs, which is a ***** to acquire, lots of time and intelligence to earn.  See

    http://www.ccim.com/info/ccim-designation-requirem...

    If I were in the space of commercial real estate, I would have an HONEST and RESPONSIVE CCIM on my advisor team.

    In the MH space I appreciate @John Fedro and @Curt Smith for their DIRECT EXPERIENCE in MH investing, very much.  I would pay them to get the right info any day.  @Ken Rishel too.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    Brian, I wasn't naming anyone or implying anything, just commenting on the entire industry side. Quality of materials for an education in this business.

    As to MHs, I've had to deal with them, don't care to but you don't always get what you want. I would certainly seek Ken's advice at the level he operates. I don't need "how to's" of an operator really.....   :)

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    ...real estate today is more complicated than it was even 5 years ago, more so than 10 and 20 years ago. 

    Real estate is no more complicated than it was 20 years ago.  

    Yes, legal aspects of real estate are more complicated.  Regulatory aspects of real estate are more complicated.  Lending aspects of real estate are more complicated.  But, the business of real estate is no more complicated than it was back in the 1980s or 1990s when I was growing up.

    And because legal, regulatory, lending, etc. aspects are more complicated, I certainly agree that MY ATTORNEYS, MY BROKERS and MY LENDERS should be required to take continuing education classes.  So that they can adequately protect me when acting as my representative.

    But, real estate as a business hasn't changed, and I see no reason why a serious real estate investor (one who surrounds him/herself with good attorneys, lenders and brokers) needs to have any formal education requirements.

    Using the argument that real estate investors should have to take classes because real estate has become more complicated, you should also be arguing that anyone who buys and sells stocks/bonds/options/etc. should have to take classes because SEC laws have gotten more complicated.  And also that anyone who has a retirement fund should have to take classes because ERISA law has gotten more complicated.

    And obviously, most people aren't going to argue for that...

    Of course, that's just my opinion...

  • Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
    ....

    I seriously doubt that anyone could simply use the internet and or libraries to duplicate for free what any of the above individuals charge for. 

    I highly disagree.  I know several folks who specialize in purchasing mobile home parks and manufactured housing communities.  They are all self-taught...and very successful at it.

    While some people may not have the motivation and intelligence to self-learn these things, to say that you seriously doubt anyone can learn real estate on their own is just ridiculous.  I know self-taught real estate investors in many niches...real estate isn't rocket science...

    Bill G. made a very good case, in part, because he was very specific. I did not mean to imply that people could not learn about real estate on their own and I really did not think that was what I wrote, but, after rereading my own post, I could see how it could be interpreted that way.

    Here are some basic facts:

    The largest community owner group in the state of Wisconsin(who had well over $10,000,000 in loans) chose to attend our Captive Finance Workshop twice, one with their CEO only, and once with some of his staff. They had been making loans for more than 10 years prior to attending one of our workshops very successfully. So, why would they bother to attend? In part because they recognized our greater knowledge and experience, and in part, because they were experienced enough to recognize they had "holes" in their knowledge and expertise. The end result was they tripled their profitability of their finance operation. Over 50% of our Captive Finance Workshop have up and running finance companies before they attend.

    As Bill G wrote, we need to define successful. I have been involved in developing and purchasing existing communities since 1975. I developed 6600 sites myself, and partnered in the purchase of 4,000 existing sites. All were highly profitable, and sold for premium prices. Yet, I am still learning more about it even today mostly from people who charge to attend their meetings. I attend the International Networking Roundtable every year (George Allen event) and spend good money to attend.When ULI still had a manufactured housing division, I also belonged and attended their meetings which amounted to about $10,000 per year. I also attend the MHI National Congress which is also expensive to attend in part for the learning opportunities offered.

    Our consultancy is profitable because of the experienced and already successful organizations that utilize our services. Our two lead workshops are break even events intended to educate people enough so they can make informed and intelligent decisions about how they intend to solve their customer finance problems.

    I am long since reasonably successful as long as you don't compare me to Sam Zell or the Zeman family or Gene Landy. So why do I continue to spend money on education? Why do others do the same? If we agreed with J Scott and others posting here, we would never do that.

    Education is important. Some of it can be self education, but, in the end, everyone needs more than what they can do for themselves. While not knowing what you don't know is a serious problem, believing what you know for certain that isn't correct is even a more serious problem. 

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:

    Some of it can be self education, but, in the end, everyone needs more than what they can do for themselves. 

    Based on the above statement (and your previous arguments), you seem to be suggesting that the only two options are:  

    1. Go it alone; or 

    2. Spend money on education.  

    There are other options.

    Have you never considered that you can get outside assistance and education without spending money.  

    For example, I have always had plenty of mentors (unpaid) and have always surrounded myself with people who know more than I do.  That was true when I was in the corporate world, it is true with my real estate investing and it's true in the other business I own/run.  I've been successful at many of my ventures, not because I pay people to help me, but because I surround myself with people who are priceless.    

    That said, I expect those who sell education to argue for the necessity of paid education...whether they really believe it or not, they have a vested interest in promoting that idea.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    So, what I'm gathering here from my Special Operations Engineer of the Dirty Dozen Special Operators on the BP fantasy team is:

    He has an MBA and has been rather successful in building his real estate business (he ain't done yet) and he's advocating that the world of business itself hasn't changed much, that real estate is still basically the same thing it was when he was a kid.

    Now, if my memory serves me from conducting the real estate business 20 years ago, it has changed. Competition is greater, Realtors and operators and the general public are much more aware of business dealings than 20 years ago. Social aspects have changed, definition of family has changed, some states allow pot in the home. Housing still serves a social order but that order has changed.  I don't remember looking at Zillow and arguing with their valuation assessments in 1995.  

    Title requirements have changed, settlement procedures have changed, try that old double closing using the other guy's money. Contract for Deed arrangements are seen as circumventing long standing foreclosure laws. Predatory dealing was rarely heard of 20 years ago, today the courts are more aware of practices in real estate and will lower the hammer. Politics have changed that drives how business is conducted.  20years ago we weren't concerned about dual agency representations, lead paint or even radon detectors.

    Glad I don't have to use a roofing hammer any more, zap, bang, done. Need to take an accurate measurement, just shoot that light over there  , forget the tape. Need an elevation, get the GPS surveying unit out. Need clean up done? Hey wait kid, how old are you again? How much have I paid you to date this year?   

    Appliances are different, interior designs have changed, materials have changed, tastes have changed. Demands in the market have changed.

    20 years ago, economic times were pretty good in RE, that was 1995, not a bad year, heck of a lot better in my area than today. People still had job stability, they were not as transit as today, educational aspects have changed, buyer's needs have changed. Median price homes have gone up. 

    Financing rations have changed, that changes who can qualify for a mortgage, that influences the market, housing starts, inventory, home affordability, quality of life, where Bobby may get to go to school. should we put granite counter tops in this spec flip or not?

    Can someone enter into the real estate industry just as ignorant as one may have 20 years ago......probably so, but they have much more to learn. Can anyone learn and be successful in real estate? No, not just anyone, is an IQ of 155 required? No, 100 will probably do. That aspect hasn't changed so much, but a general education is pretty handy, an ability to socialize in other socio-economic groups has increased demands.

    Some things haven't changed, the basics, but much has been added from the ability to deal with social and economic changes, rules, regulations and laws, staying current requires more time and effort.   

    Nope, much has changed in real estate. There is much more to learn for the average investor to be as efficient and successful as their peer 20 years ago. Get the smart phone out and see what information is available today, I had to find comps in listing books, you know, books with pages. Some things have gotten easier too, but things have really changed. :) 

  • Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:

    Some of it can be self education, but, in the end, everyone needs more than what they can do for themselves. 

    Based on the above statement (and your previous arguments), you seem to be suggesting that the only two options are:  

    1. Go it alone; or 

    2. Spend money on education.  

    There are other options.

    Have you never considered that you can get outside assistance and education without spending money.  

    For example, I have always had plenty of mentors (unpaid) and have always surrounded myself with people who know more than I do.  That was true when I was in the corporate world, it is true with my real estate investing and it's true in the other business I own/run.  I've been successful at many of my ventures, not because I pay people to help me, but because I surround myself with people who are priceless.    

    That said, I expect those who sell education to argue for the necessity of paid education...whether they really believe it or not, they have a vested interest in promoting that idea.

     Mentors, are a very viable source of information. Normally, if one is being fair to the mentor, the mentoree has an obligation to return something of equal value (not money) to the mentor. Granting this can be many things, but it is not free. Having had mentors and having been a mentor I have experienced both sides. The upshot is however, not everyone is lucky enough to find a good mentor who is willing to give of their time to teach.

    The same could be said of surrounding yourself with people that know more than you do about something specific. I routinely hire people that know more about certain areas than I do. That is one of the secrets to success of our consultancy.

    I also learn from association, but I also try to return equal value for value given. Just as you do not believe in paying for education, I don't believe it is fair to take and not give back which means it isn't free.

    Our company does sell education and expertise. I also believe in it. I pay for it all the time as an earlier post suggests. I paid for my son's education through medical school and will continue to help support him through his internship and residency. I paid for my own post high school education through my doctorate. 

    Do I have a vested interest in what we offer? Sure. I'm not sure what is wrong with that but I still believe in capitalism, which most of America does not. I've never figured out why people who rent lots, or homes, or flip homes, to others at a profit object so much to others who want to also make a profit. To me, it is pretty much like a strict Union worker who bellows the mantra of unionism, and then orders a beer from a non union bartender and gets his hair cut at a non union barber shop. A form of retentive greed maybe?

    The difference is, I don't need the income from it. If I decide I have had enough of people accusing me of scurrilous behavior, I can pay off my employees and close the doors without any lifestyle change. Besides the employees, the suffering would be mostly spread among the manufactured housing industry which is dependent on seller finance to survive. Our consultancy is the only one of its kind in this industry because of the high capital investment costs. Those remaining would need to spend far more than we charge with companies like All Regs and with regulatory attorneys on the compliance side, and there would be absolutely no one offering what we do in relation to operations and sustainability. Frankly, that is the only reason I started the consultancy. To help.

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