Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes

Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information?

I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there.

To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible.

The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it.

I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free.

I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with:

- Paying more than the information is worth

- Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information

- Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information

- Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition

- Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information

- Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful

I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true:

1. The education costs more than it's worth;

2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing;

3. The educator isn't doing it for the money.

If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though.

The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

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Account Closed
Rental Property Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2014 · 308 posts · 144 votes
11y
I've been to a few seminars, never paid for them, just to see what they were about, and they are ALWAYS vague, hyped the good "You can quit your job! You can drive a Mercedes!, and downplayed the bad "A replacement roof" or some such nonsense.
Information should be free. If you want SPECIFIC information, then yes, I say give the person a couple of bucks.
But general information should be free. If you want to sit down with me, explain your goals, and I help custom tailor a workable business plan for you, then yes, I'd like to be paid.
Hope that helps!
Travis
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Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
11y
Disclaimer: My company puts on many workshops and webinars
The workshop that Matt referred to "almost attending" was one we put on the day prior to the Louisville Show in 2014. We charged only $100.00 to attend and had almost 150 paid attendances. We lost $2,857.63 when all the bills were paid. We did that workshop as a more or less public service to the manufactured housing industry and we priced it as low as we could just to get as many people there as possible to share important information for sales personnel on what the new laws were that affected them, and to teach them technics and techniques to still be able to sell (legally) successfully despite the laws.
Some of the people that attended had not even set up a basic Compliance Management System as required by Federal law, so they did end up spending more money with us for help in that area. I did not, and still do not, consider that up-selling because we knew in advance that over 90% of the people in attendance already had a Compliance Management System in place. Further, since the primary mission of our consultancy is to help operators engaged in seller finance, most of the attendees had no need for any of our services. We did what we did because it was needed by the industry and no other association or company was in a position to do what we did.
We do put on many other educational workshops that we do not lose money on. The people that conduct those workshops are true experts in the subjects they are teaching and the price of the workshop usually contains 100s of pages of handouts, documents, and step-by-step directions on that topic. Normally, for all but three of those workshops, the attendees will go home without spending additional money with us. Often they are employees of organizations that already have a retainer agreement with us.
We have had a 100% money back guarantee at the end of every single workshop we have ever put on that we will deliver exactly what we promise in the way of knowledge and materials and have never had anyone ask for their money back. We deliver what we say we will.
So, to Matt's question of why people won't (or don't) pay for seminars, here is what we have discovered in relation to our workshops:
- Some people are much more thinly financed than they want anyone else to know. We have been shocked and surprised by some of the declined credit cards or bounced checks we have had to deal with. We have one customer who writes us 34 checks on 34 different accounts every time they send someone to a workshops, and each check is drawn on a community they own.
- Some people are convinced that everyone is out to screw them and that there are no honorable people in the world. Evidence that a year ago, I invited a major naysayer on here to attend a meeting put on by the Texas Manufactured Housing Association that was within easy daily commuting distance of his home to try to clear up some things he was denigrating in this forum. He chose not to attend because, "all them people are crooks" despite the fact that over 750 other people from Texas who are members of the association were lauditory after the event.
- Some people are so ego centric they just can't stand the idea that someone else knows more than they do. Attending such an event, especially if it is well done, would be a horror for them.
- Some people know from experience that even if the event they attend is the greatest thing since sliced bread, they will fail to follow through on what they have learned.
- Some people just fail to visualize what they might get out of the event that would make it worth the cost of attending. This is the one we agonize about because that failure is ours.
- Some people are afraid to travel. This could be air travel, travel in a large city, or any number of other things.
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Account Closed
Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 102 posts · 33 votes
11y
Because you can get mentored for free if you look in the right places and have something to return of value to the mentor? I paid nothing for my mentor 8 years ago and I learned for free how to invest right in distressed homes and make 10-14% or so on both rentals and seller financing. You could pay 20k to learn what I learned for free!
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
We lost $2,857.63 when all the bills were paid. We did that workshop as a more or less public service to the manufactured housing industry and we priced it as low as we could just to get as many people there as possible to share important information for sales personnel on what the new laws were that affected them, and to teach them technics and techniques to still be able to sell (legally) successfully despite the laws.
...
We have had a 100% money back guarantee at the end of every single workshop we have ever put on that we will deliver exactly what we promise in the way of knowledge and materials and have never had anyone ask for their money back.
First, if it's true that you're just trying to inform people and have no ulterior motives, my recommendation would be to just videotape the presentation or do a webinar (so people can still ask questions) -- that would essentially be free, you'd get the word out and you wouldn't lose money. That said, you admitted you work for a company that puts on workshops and seminars, so I'm guessing there was an expectation that it would ultimately prove profitable through other upsells.
Regardless, the fact that you offer money back guarantees for every training you do is the key (in my opinion). If someone feels like they didn't get the value promised/expected, they have no risk. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if you're offering $100 seminars, $1000 seminars or $50K seminars -- if you're truly willing to offer a money back guarantee, I would suggest people give you a try.
I'm not anti-guru...I'm anti-"the take advantage of the guys who don't know any better and take their money before they figure out what happened at which point it's too late" gurus...
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Clay SmithBusiness Member
Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2013 · 419 posts · 244 votes
11y
I have guru fatigue. It seems like my local reia pitches something every month. I leave early to avoid the redderic. I am tired of being "sold". It just comes off as disengeniune.
Also, when I see mentors with outdated content and irrelevant techniques I question all other gurus.
If they helped me somehow for free, I would e more inclined to purchase. For instance, dropbox offers me free storage space. When I grew, I bought the pro edition.
If a guru helped me buy a note, I would pay them when I made money. Buying advice is just not good enough. It is worth the price of a book to me. Partner with me and I will be a repeat buyer.
LREI Property Management LLC4.6438 Reviews
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Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
11y
Originally posted by @J Scott:

First, if it's true that you're just trying to inform people and have no ulterior motives, my recommendation would be to just videotape the presentation or do a webinar (so people can still ask questions) -- that would essentially be free, you'd get the word out and you wouldn't lose money. That said, you admitted you work for a company that puts on workshops and seminars, so I'm guessing there was an expectation that it would ultimately prove profitable through other upsells.
We actually knew there would be only a few people who needed anything else from us going into the workshop. That was OK with us because we wanted to teach a large number of sales personnel things they needed to know.
We have a professional educator on our staff who is responsible for deciding what can and cannot be done by webinar. This was not suitable for a webinar as it was 12 hours long and there was considerable role playing involved. We had 6 instructors there handling various segments including three we hired to cover specific topics that were outside our normal areas of expertise, one of which is a nationally famous sales trainer that did considerable back and forth and role playing. That would have not worked in a webinar, so we did what we did.
All of that said, I agree there are far too many seminars that are very light on specifics and the only reason for them is to sell something additional. Like everyone here, I have attended a number of them, and, in my opinion, often wasted the time and money.
That makes it harder for organizations like ours to persuade people that what we offer is truly different. I know others have the same problem. The "boot camps" offered by Frank and Dave are another example of well worth the money workshops that even I disdained orginally until I talked to enough people who had attended who raved about the content and value.
I am interested in how people define the word guru.
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Nick NoonPro Member
Chelmsford, MA · Member since 2015 · 124 posts · 70 votes
11y
This is a little abstract, but this topic reminds me of an episode of "Brain Games" that I had watched a few months ago. For anyone who hasn't seen the show, it's a science show that does case studies and different demonstrations to teach you how your brain works.
The episode I am referring to is when they actually had free samples of two cakes, of which seemingly looked the same. The only difference is that one cake was square and had a price tag of $11.99 and the other was circular and had a price tag of $50.99 or something like that. Without exception, every single person said that the $50.99 cake tasted a lot better and it was more moist and flavorful. The show then proceeded to tell people that the cakes were exactly the same in every way possible. I've always held this example with me from then on because it makes me think about VALUE and what I am getting.
Just because its more expensive....doesn't mean it's better...as your brain might trick you into thinking.
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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
11y
@Matt B.
That's a hundred bucks you should have spent, most likely!
Webinars and blogs are not a teaching platform, they are a speaking platform. There is no interaction with the instructor, or other attendees, people are left to draw conclusions about anything they didn't understand as it was mentioned. Those conclusions are usually wrong when made in areas of finance and compliance. You can't just communicate on a one way street and really teach.
I would be very reluctant to offer a money back guarantee, primarily because I see so many trying to get into RE that lack business ethics (not really their fault starting out) and some are just plain crooked, I would think that a few would claim they got nothing out of something and just lie about it to get the money back.......then, you have those that if they saw someone else getting a refund raising a stink, they would join in as well. No telling who would show up at some seminar. I've never sold a property or made any loan on a money back guarantee either, for the same reason.
I've attended national seminars with NAHRO, a national association of housing and redevelopment officials, they cost of a grand, plus expenses and those are never done on a money back guarantee basis either. I went based on the reputation of the organization and that of the main speakers presenting information.
I'm surprised to hear that Ken was never asked to refund a dime......I might be wrong, OTH, he is putting out technical information, compliance aspects and perhaps there is some marketing taught. There is a world of difference between teaching facts, laws, regulatory aspects and long proven one on one marketing techniques as to some "How to Buy with No Money" theory dreamed up as a product. Gurus probably know that what they put out is horsefeathers!
BTW, attorneys attend seminars on various topics and I never heard of one that was a money back guarantee, Doctors don't attend medical seminars that offer a money back guarantees that I know of. I guess it is only appropriate thinking in areas where the industry education system is full of shisters and crooks.
Did you all know, there is an association established to educate RE gurus? Yep, Realtors and PM's and gurus who put on seminars, I didn't see a money back offer on their stuff.
The consumer has some due diligence to do, they need to look at the expertise and experience as well as the education level of anyone teaching in a professional field and much more to their reputation. The topic should tell you the nature of what to expect too. Someone teaching how to do Sub-To's and Lease Options isn't even a viable premise for a good seminar. Such topics are 30 minute explanations worth about $20.00!
Agreed, we have attempted to define gurus here before. Not all educators are gurus, a guru to me is one who mentions or implies that their information will lead a student to wealth, that has a program that is nothing more than a marketing spin off of old and well known types of transactions, that more is spent on selling the "system" than really educating and doing so with hype and fluff giving the impression they have some unique experience, qualification or success. In other words, con artists. A sucker is born every minute. :)
1 Reply
Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

@Matt B.
I would be very reluctant to offer a money back guarantee, primarily because I see so many trying to get into RE that lack business ethics (not really their fault starting out) and some are just plain crooked, I would think that a few would claim they got nothing out of something and just lie about it to get the money back.......then, you have those that if they saw someone else getting a refund raising a stink, they would join in as well. No telling who would show up at some seminar. I've never sold a property or made any loan on a money back guarantee either, for the same reason.
I've attended national seminars with NAHRO, a national association of housing and redevelopment officials, they cost of a grand, plus expenses and those are never done on a money back guarantee basis either. I went based on the reputation of the organization and that of the main speakers presenting information.
Most of the workshops we offer are not $100.00. When we first started doing workshops for people we did not know well early in 2009, there was a considerable resistance. While I was well-known among Illinois MH industry folk and reasonably well known in Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Michigan, I was not well known in most other states. The money back guarantee was helpful until more people knew who I was, and attendees started talking about their experiences in attending our workshops. Today, it is rarely mentioned, but I would still honor it if someone felt they did not get exactly what we promised and more.
I'm surprised to hear that Ken was never asked to refund a dime......I might be wrong, OTH, he is putting out technical information, compliance aspects and perhaps there is some marketing taught. There is a world of difference between teaching facts, laws, regulatory aspects and long proven one on one marketing techniques as to some "How to Buy with No Money" theory dreamed up as a product. Gurus probably know that what they put out is horsefeathers!
I think that Bill has caught the reason. When we put on a workshop, it is factual in nature, and we deliver reams of highly detailed information. Our handouts often number more than 500 pages of additional material, step by step directions, specific forms and, in some cases, documents necessary to conduct transactions. We do not promise anyone riches, nor do we make claims that are strong but are also light on information. Our workshops are two fold. First we teach the facts, then we teach people how to implement what they have learned. That is a long way from promising someone they are going to get rich just by knowing what we know and, usually, without any real work or judgement on their part.
BTW, attorneys attend seminars on various topics and I never heard of one that was a money back guarantee, Doctors don't attend medical seminars that offer a money back guarantees that I know of. I guess it is only appropriate thinking in areas where the industry education system is full of shisters and crooks.
1 Reply
Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

@Matt B.
The consumer has some due diligence to do, they need to look at the expertise and experience as well as the education level of anyone teaching in a professional field and much more to their reputation. The topic should tell you the nature of what to expect too. Someone teaching how to do Sub-To's and Lease Options isn't even a viable premise for a good seminar. Such topics are 30 minute explanations worth about $20.00!
Agreed, we have attempted to define gurus here before. Not all educators are gurus, a guru to me is one who mentions or implies that their information will lead a student to wealth, that has a program that is nothing more than a marketing spin off of old and well known types of transactions, that more is spent on selling the "system" than really educating and doing so with hype and fluff giving the impression they have some unique experience, qualification or success. In other words, con artists. A sucker is born every minute. :)
Bill has some excellent points. All of us need to take responsibility for the decisions we make. I'm also going to grant that sometimes making those decisions is harder than others. I would have no trouble giving a pass on "How to get Rich in my Underwear", but I have paid for and attended others that were of very little value after researching them because I didn't really know what questions to ask before making the decision to give them money.
Here are some thoughts I have to share when making a decision to attend or not attend anyone's class, workshop, seminar, webinar, or to buy their video materials:
- Make sure you have a clear understanding of what all the costs are not only for attending, but for anything else you might need to buy or invest in to accomplish what attending is suppose to accomplish. Then make sure you have the money available to commit to doing that if you choose to do so. (It does no good to attend and not have the financial resources to actuate.)
- Make sure the individual or company offering something actually has the education and/or background to teach you what they are promising to teach you. (What Bill said.) If they will be suppling instructors, make sure the instructors are up to speed. (For example, we (RCG) offers a workshop on Underwriting. While people sign up because of either my, or RCG's reputation, the actual instructors are our employees, rather than myself or other members of upper management. They are, however, actual former heads of underwriting with years of background in underwriting manufactured home loans. When someone is considering signing up for that workshop, we would be happy to discuss the trainer and their qualifications for teaching that class.) If the instructor is not qualified, you will miss getting what you deserve even if the material is first class. In the 1980's I paid for, and attended, a class to get Certified in HUD Code appraisals where the instructor didn't have a clue about the subject material. Despite the fact the supplied material was excellent, I only passed the test for Certification because of things I already knew before attending the class. Most of the class failed the exam.
- Make sure you are going to actually devote the time to following up the next steps necessary to actuate whatever you are going to learn.
- Understand the difference between a low cost seminar and a higher dollar workshop. The people that are putting on $200-$500 seminars are always going to be long on generalities and light on real meat. They are also going to try to sell you books or tapes or something that promise to contain that real meat. Often they don't. In a workshop, the real meat is right there. If they offer you more, it should not be during the time you are paying for. (RCG has certain materials that some people are going to need because they don't already have some things in place that we offer, but only after the workshop is done and over, and only for those who stay late because they know they have a need. Not every attendee will need any or all of the offerings, so we leave it out of the price of attendance to be fair to those who already have those things in place.)
Good organizations/individuals do not want your money if you aren't going to succeed at what they are teaching. This should be a litmus test for you to judge them by. RCG, for example, screens people for certain of our workshops before accepting their money. We have two workshops that we turn more people down for attendance than we accept because we feel they lack what it takes to succeed at those particular areas.
I hope this helps.
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Matt B.
OP
Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
11y
Funny, I started this post over a year ago and still haven't been to one of Ken's workshops. Should put it on this years bucket list.
My point is still this; why do a bunch of capitalistic real estate investors, on a site aptly named Bigger Pockets, think you can (and should) get everything you need to know for free?
Don't get me wrong, this is a great site, with a ton of great information by some very knowledgeable people. But to say you can get everything you need to know, right here for free, is to put it nicely, slightly naive.
And some people are still implying it, a year later.
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Matt B.:

My point is still this; why do a bunch of capitalistic real estate investors, on a site aptly named Bigger Pockets, think you can (and should) get everything you need to know for free?
Huh? What is inherent about capitalism that says nothing can be free?
Is the idea of charity at odds with capitalism?
Is the idea of non-currency trade at odds with capitalism?
Is the idea of cooperation to achieve a mutual goal at odds with capitalism?
No. No. And no.
And that's essentially what you have here at BP -- some people giving information out of charity, some people sharing information with the expectation that they'll get information in return and some people banding together to grow the knowledge within their group.
None of these things are antithetical to capitalism.
As for people thinking they *should* get information for free -- assuming you define "free" the same way I define "free," I don't believe anyone on this site believes they are *entitled* to free information. If you've seen evidence to the contrary, feel free to point it out.
Most importantly, if YOU personally believe that getting free stuff is in opposition to the economic principles, you are welcome not to consume any information on this site. Now THAT is capitalism... :-)
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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
11y
Matt, to get the right answers, you must be able to ask the right questions. No instructor or teacher can read minds. What is naïve is asking "How do I succeed in real estate" and expecting an answer to that. I don't think the failure of learning falls to the teacher, it is usually the student who fails, lazy, not putting forth the effort, not studying what they are told to, looking for the Cliff Notes to riches, the quick and easy, just sizzle and dazzle me into being successful.
Which is why I can say that a student of RE investing can get all they need as to good advice and knowledge.......if they ask the right question.
If I didn't like BP, I wouldn't be here, but this is a social interaction site, yes it poses as an educational source, but it's more of a source of ideas, not an education, IMO. I haven't seen anything on BP about the principles of real estate or finance, but many aspects are mentioned. Some good information, some not so good. But, ask the right question to the right person and you'll get some very good advice.....free of charge. We have attorneys on here, RE tax experts, 1031 experts, retirement account investment experts, mortgage experts and others that provide more powerful information than any generalized seminar folks pay for. :)
1 Reply
Brian Gibbons
Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y
And we have
@Bill Gulley
@Bill Gulley
@Dion DePaoli
@Ken Rishel
@Rick H.
@J Scott
@Ned Carey
@Rick H.
and a few talented others that guide us mere mortals into staying out of harms way.
2 Reply
J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by :

And we have
@J Scott
and a few talented others that guide us mere mortals into staying out of harms way.
I can barely keep myself out of harm's way... :-)
Though all of you guys certainly help me out...
Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)
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Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Brian Gibbons:

And we have
@Bill Gulley
@Bill Gulley
@Dion DePaoli
@Ken Rishel
@Rick H.
@J Scott
@Ned Carey
@Rick H.
and a few talented others that guide us mere mortals into staying out of harms way.
Huh. The last I checked I am very mortal - and getting older.
The only thing I have done is to have been in the right place at the right time with the experience and capital to create a consultancy to help with chattel finance and seller finance issues. Anyone else with the same level of experience and capital could have done the same thing.
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Matt B.
OP
Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
11y
@J Scott
I am in no way against things being free and I have acknowledged that(many times over.) There is a ton of great information available for free, especially here. But there are several posts in this topic alone by people saying "you never need to pay for anything, it's all available right here for free."
I have also admitted that there are quite a few hucksters charging for bad information. But there could potentially be more bad information here (for free), in between all the good information. You have to sift the chaff from the wheat.
My point is still the same, you cannot possibly learn "all" you need to know for free. It is going to cost someone, something. And, that there is nothing wrong with paying for information, especially information you intend to use to make a profit or to grow bigger pockets.
1 Reply
Account Closed
Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 102 posts · 33 votes
11y
No harm in paying for a guru class here and there, but I maintain that you can find mentors to educate you in a niche of REI for damn near nothing. :) To each his/her own.
0 Reply
Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Matt B.:

@J Scott
I am in no way against things being free and I have acknowledged that(many times over.) There is a ton of great information available for free, especially here. But there are several posts in this topic alone by people saying "you never need to pay for anything, it's all available right here for free."
I have also admitted that there are quite a few hucksters charging for bad information. But there could potentially be more bad information here (for free), in between all the good information. You have to sift the chaff from the wheat.
My point is still the same, you cannot possibly learn "all" you need to know for free. It is going to cost someone, something. And, that there is nothing wrong with paying for information, especially information you intend to use to make a profit or to grow bigger pockets.
I suppose it would be obvious to state I fully agree with Matt with one exception....
Matt wrote " there could potentially be more bad information here (for free), in between all the good information. You have to sift the chaff from the wheat." My only disagreement is that instead of "potentially be more bad information", I would state there is truly bad information being freely disseminated on Bigger Pockets in the areas I have expertise in. The problem for the reader in being able to "sift the chaff from the wheat" is they often don't have enough knowledge to decide who is blowing smoke or feeding their ego and who actually knows what they are writing about. I actually often choke when reading some writer's opinion that is based on his interpretation of regulatory law via what he/she read on Google or some other site. Regulatory attorneys charge over $1,000 per hour for a reason. Regulatory law requires knowledge and skill that most attorneys lack. So where does Mr. Opinionated get off spouting like an expert because he read the laws themselves? That alone reveals ignorance about regulatory law.
Sometimes the venue makes a difference, but on the internet it is a wide open world. I pay to attend George Allen's Annual Roundtables every year, but, at that roundtable are many speakers who George has vetted, and a host of other community owners and a few select group of suppliers who will let me pick their brains for free and visa versa. Because they are there, there is no BS. Far too many people there know what the background of other attendees really is. I paid to attend, but on the other hand, I have the opportunity to ask for help - for free - from people that know what they are talking about on a particular subject.
So, it is the best of both worlds. I have certainly learned a great deal about zero impact manufactured homes from the one industry expert that knows what they are talking about when it comes to solar powered, zero discharge, homes in the last two years, and may be soon putting that to profitable use as an investment.
Again, I agree with Matt. Hucksters may guarantee you don't always get what you paid for, but you rarely get everything you need for free either.
3 Reply
J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by :

My point is still the same, you cannot possibly learn "all" you need to know for free.
Clearly that's not the case. I've learned all I need to know for free (okay, under $150). I've never taken a course, paid a coach, etc. I've learned using BP, networking with other investors, reading books, etc.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with paying (again, given the points I've made above), but to say that people "cannot possibly" learn everything necessary for free is just flat-out wrong.
I'm proof of that.
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Matt B.
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Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
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I actually would agree with you Ken that there truly is plenty of bad information and if you don't know, it would be impossible to disseminate it. I just didn't want to come out and say it. I am already ruffling enough feathers, though that has never been my intent.
J Scott, forgive me because I don't want to argue, but I just believe our views are different. I will agree it doesn't have to come by way of a paid seminar, book or course. I'll agree that one could potentially go a lifetime and make tons of money and never have a problem with using only free information.
But for some small portion of us, if we are engaging in complex deals where potential millions are at stake, utilizing investors and having to follow securities law or maybe offering some sort of seller finance in this day and age, we probably want the best information money can buy. We probably don't want something we heard for free on the internet (or for that matter even paid for at a bad seminar.)
This probably applies only to me, but I would prefer not to lose money, be sued or go to jail. Again, I am not against free information, I just personally don't believe it is enough. And I am okay if I am the only one here that believes that.
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Ken Rishel
Specialist · Springfield, IL · Member since 2011 · 700 posts · 479 votes
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Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by :
My point is still the same, you cannot possibly learn "all" you need to know for free.
Clearly that's not the case. I've learned all I need to know for free (okay, under $150). I've never taken a course, paid a coach, etc. I've learned using BP, networking with other investors, reading books, etc.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with paying (again, given the points I've made above), but to say that people "cannot possibly" learn everything necessary for free is just flat-out wrong.
I'm proof of that.
While I have learned many things in my life of real value, it never seemed like it was for free. Back in the days when Truman was still POTUS, I learned a lot from my father without him charging me actual money, but I certainly paid for it in work. I cleaned a lot of barns and stalls, milked a cow daily, fed cattle, sheep, horses, and sometimes chickens when no one else was available. When my brother taught me how to trap, guess who spent a year helping to run his trap line without pay?
In high school my Uncle (President of a Bank ) started teaching me the business of banking. Guess who did all the local small dollar collections for far less than minimum wage and then went on to making small loans at the same bank for still less than minimum wage.
When I dropped out of college after two years, a very astute businessman taught me how to sell franchises which proved extremely lucrative in the long run, but I also spent 6 months as his gopher at no pay from him. I had to survive on my other full-time job while spending my money on first class travel to follow him around.
All of these "free" learning experiences were well worth all the time and money I spent in return for them. Frankly, they were far more valuable than the college I had paid for, and the college I went back to and paid for in order to finish what I started. They were learning experiences that could not be easily bought with mere money.
All of that said, most of us as adults make more money per hour (even adjusting for inflation) than the money I sacrificed for those learning experiences. If there are things I need to know that relate to my business and investments, I would never hesitate to fork over money to learn them if the amount spent would be less that the value of the time I might have to invest to learn "for free".
The last point I would make is that not everyone is fortunate enough to know the experts we need to know well enough to expect them to mentor. Scott, you have apparently been that fortunate, but others are not that fortunate. I would expect that would be most people who lurk or post here, and for them, good quality education and help they pay for may make the difference in their desired success and expensive lessons later.
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J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
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Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
While I have learned many things in my life of real value, it never seemed like it was for free.
....
The last point I would make is that not everyone is fortunate enough to know the experts we need to know well enough to expect them to mentor. Scott, you have apparently been that fortunate, but others are not that fortunate.
You've mischaracterized (purposefully or not) several points I've made. I'll ignore most of them, as I'm not skilled enough to debate with someone who won't stay on topic...
But, I will address these two points...
First, I thought it was fairly obvious that by "free," we've been discussing lack of payment in a fiat currency. I don't believe you'll find a person in this world who would argue that an education can be had without some investment -- at a minimum, an investment of time and effort. I think it's highly unlikely that you really believed anyone here was arguing otherwise, making your previous post mostly just a distraction from the topic at hand.
We're discussing whether payment is needed for adequate real estate education, not whether a time/effort investment is required. I'm happy to cede the fact that time and effort are always going to be required; now let's get back to the topic of whether real estate can be learned without paying a fee.
Second, regarding your point that I was fortunate to have real estate experts as mentors -- I've never had a real estate mentor. In fact, I was probably 50 or 75 deals into my career before I ever really spent any time with others in the business.
Which leads us back to my experience... I didn't need to pay for an education, nor did I need a mentor. Do you honestly believe that I'm smarter and more capable than most of the people here? Those who know me would likely say that's not the case...and I'm guessing you wouldn't characterize me as brilliant, now would you? :-)
So, there has to be an explanation for why I -- someone with absolutely no real estate experience prior to my starting investing -- was able to learn for free and without a mentor. If it's not because learning without payment/mentor is perfectly reasonable, what would you suggest it be attributed to?
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Account Closed
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
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@Matt B.
I don't think people believe that all information must be "free" to be of any value. however, people also are wary (justifiably) of those that profit off selling information. Often, such people are more interested in profit than helping others succeed. As a result, one must believe that the "information seller" will reduce what they provide as much as possible because they may not care except that a students check clears/stretch the profit into future classes. the motivation of the teacher is what causes the problem, potentially. Keep in mind, all this information is out there, if one chooses to do the work on their own to grab it. Often, those paying for classes are those looking for a shortcut to arrive at the same place that they would've if they had simply taken the time and effort to learn on their own.
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Ben Leybovich
Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
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Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Ken Rishel:
Which leads us back to my experience... I didn't need to pay for an education, nor did I need a mentor. Do you honestly believe that I'm smarter and more capable than most of the people here? Those who know me would likely say that's not the case...and I'm guessing you wouldn't characterize me as brilliant, now would you? :-)
So, there has to be an explanation for why I -- someone with absolutely no real estate experience prior to my starting investing -- was able to learn for free and without a mentor. If it's not because learning without payment/mentor is perfectly reasonable, what would you suggest it be attributed to?
I hesitate to comment on this, considering I have a horse in this race. I have to, however, because @J Scott very obviously disqualified himself in this argument. Let me explain:
I know J Scott, and Jason - you are clearly smarter and more capable than the vast majority of people here and anywhere. This is a point that shouldn't be argued, and this is not me trying to play nice, but simply stating that which is obvious to me.
Let me elaborate. Just today I had a conversation with a friend whose husband works at the local refinery as an operator. This is typically a position reserved for college grads - he has graduated high school, and not with any kind of honors, according to his wife. He went through the apprenticeship training at the refinery and performs a high up job now for a decade.
On the flip side, I just today rented a unit to a traveling engineer. They are doing some expansion at the refinery, and contracted 3rd party to come in and oversee the work. This guy has several engineering degrees.
Different folks - different strokes. These two people are working together on a project - totally different paths to arrive to the same place...
One more tidbit. My friend told me today that one of the companies contracting with the refinery (they are responsible for hydrogen stuff within the refinery), have recently announced that they no longer will be hiring college grads. This is a mechanical engineering type of environment, and apparently they don't feel that the college kids are coming in with the right set of skills and attitude. They would rather put the effort into training local people without college degrees...
This was a long way of saying - we need university grads, and we need technicum/trade school people. These are not going to be the same type of person, which is all good, since there are thankfully more that one type of person in this world.
Jason - you never had a mentor. I've been blessed by having several. There is good paid education, and there are gurus in a bad sense of this word. That aside, to say that you, Jason, are ordinary, and because you didn't need anyone and didn't need to pay anyone, others don't either, is incorrect. Some will be well-served to pay someone to train them. Hell - I pay $500/month for my kid's Kumon. Why - it's not like I couldn't teach them math and reading? However - these people are better, and I want the best for my kids, so I pay!
I am not sure if I was clear in this post. I fear I was a bit mumbly. I know what I'm trying to say, but it's 8PM and I've been home doing homework with kids for 6 hours...wow
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