Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information? I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there. To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible. The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it. I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free. I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with: - Paying more than the information is worth - Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information - Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information - Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition - Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information - Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true: 1. The education costs more than it's worth; 2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing; 3. The educator isn't doing it for the money. If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though. The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

I too have followed this with great interest. My first observation is that the level of professionalism in this discussion is generally very high. This is a divisive topic on BP yet, for the most part, both sides were discussed with little rhetoric and without demeaning others. Civility. Online. How novel?! Like @Ned Carey I have spent a significant amount of money on seminars, courses and mentors. I consider every single penny well-spent. My biggest regret is that I didn't seek out education sooner. The costs I incurred trying to do it on my own exceeded what I paid to others. When I say this, I include time, missed opportunities and other opportunity costs in that calculation. In 2009, my house-flipping business hit the wall. My lending sources dried up and I was stuck. After some research, I found a coach/guru to teach be lease-options, subject-to, etc. (Ironically, he was a BP contributor at the time). His system was kind of generic, but it was enough to get me going and he was there when I had questions. I locked up my first deal in about a month and have done dozens since. Could I have found all of the same info on BP? Probably. But the notion that doing so is FREE is absurd. Time is valuable. I had a family and was working a FT job. Those few hours I had to spend each week were precious and I wanted to spend them DOING not LEARNING. Real estate investing is hard. Anyone who says differently is either lying or hasn't done a deal. Having someone to teach you, answer questions, or provide info that saves you from making mistakes is not foolish, in fact, it is a good business decision. You can certainly do it on you own, but I'm not convinced it is "cheaper." The caveat is that you need to be in business. If you don't take action, then the time you spent on BP and the money you paid for the seminars is absolutely wasted.

The problem is that often times those seminars are a sales platform to get you to buy into something much more expensive in order to get information that is being purposefully withheld. I have no issue with people trying to make money by selling info to others, but at the same time the expectation exists that by paying for it, that info better be pretty good. Often times it isn't. I say this as someone who has been to some of those very seminars. In hind sight, the info provided was nothing that was really new or ground breaking. Caveat emptor!

I agree. :) I have no issue at all with paying for good information, problem is, most that is paid for isn't that good. I've had my brain picked for decades for nothing and I think I was very well paid for advice at times in the past. I certainly can't fault anyone being paid to teach or advise, so long as they are qualified to give such advice or teach a subject. The problem is, IMO, there are no set standards for qualification. Anyone with enough of an ego can declare themselves an expert or get a few others to refer to them as experts. The old adage of those who can't do teach is alive and well in RE. As to BP, I'm not sure there could be very much, if anything, that could be explained in a seminar that can't be explained on BP. If it hasn't been addressed, it probably hasn't been asked. You'd have to ask the question in a seminar as well. So, I don't think it's that information is so unique in a seminar or class but that communicating ideas is much easier I can cover more material in a class than typing my tail off in forums. I'll say too that's it's really too bad that I as well as others have to spend so much time addressing bad information planted by the gurus or others here rather than being able to venture off into more detailed subject matter. In a seminar or class, I can control that environment and stay on topic. I spent thousands on my degrees, the only money I ever spent on RE classes was for my license and were due to some diddly class that had to be selected as continued education having a broker/agent license, otherwise I never spent a dime on RE educational materials. I certainly paid attorneys to learn things. :)

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I see great value in this discussion. As a sponsor of two REI clubs with a “no sales” policy, I am often asked if I could recommend any seminars or Guru’s that might provide them with an accelerated learning curve. After I tell them about biggerpockets, I usually tell them to talk to other investors, that are actually doing deals, and ask the same question. I have talked to many wantabe investors that talk the talk, but have not done a deal yet. Until an investor does a deal based on knowledge gained by some program or seminar, they are merely justifying their expenditure. Another thing I tell newbes is to find someone that is doing what you want to do and to find a way to be of assistance to them. Don’t expect a busy investor to stop what they are doing and mentor you. Ask what you can do for them. I agree that most of the participants in most of the seminars out there, will never do anything. They will spend their 5, 10, 20, even 50k and spend the rest of their lives trying to pay it off. The less than 1% that has a strong enough “why” and continues to get educated will be the ones to succeed. Listening to the BP podcasts, the resounding answer to the last question, about why some succeed and others do not, is persistence. I am a product of a guru, that puts on expensive seminars, upsells, and brings in other to try to get you to the back of the room. I have also learned a lot from him and have become good friends with many of the people that traveled in his circle. I am successful, but nowhere near where I want to be. I feel that I am part of that 1% that persisted and did not disappear over the years. I guess what I am trying to say is, spending 50k does not guarantee success, nor does spending hours on BP. I am all for learning from someone else’s mistakes and triumphs. Everyone needs a mentor to speed up the process. That mentor could be BP, a guru, books in the library, or a personal coach. As @Joe Fairless mentioned they need to be ready to learn, and I truly believe that they must have a strong “why”. Why am I spending hours and hours on real estate when I would rather be spending time: with my kids, with my spouse, skiing, watching football, ………………. Real estate is not a get rich quick process, but you can gain wealth over time.

@Matt Buckels - my approach is similar to yours. There are some seminars I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole but others that I have paid to attend and it was worth it. I went to a Rich Dad, Poor Dad 3-day event (I have NO affiliation) and thought it was worth the $300 or so I paid (it's been a long time since I went so don't remember the exact price). I didn't do the crazy expensive up-sell for more specific courses. But then I recommended the 3-day seminar to a couple friends and they said they didn't like it. They didn't have properties and said what they learned was the same stuff they've read in books, etc. Here's my overall thought on it, it depends on where you are as an investor and what the seminar or mentor is offering. For example, I took the 3-day seminar on real estate investing when I needed a good overview of the industry and how to find other ways to invest and make money. I walked in feeling pretty good about myself because I had one investment property at the time. Then, the first thing they said is you won't achieve big-time wealth by buying single family homes. They said I needed to do multi-family or mobile home trailer parks. That changed my life and I immediately went out and learned apt investing. So, looking back on that $300 seminar, it was worth its weight in gold. For the record, I personally now believe you can achieve big-time wealth in most real estate approaches including, of course, single family homes. I've had two paid mentors at very specific times in my real estate career. My first was after I had a couple homes and was looking to take it to the next level. I learned what I needed to learn for 6 months then we went our separate ways. Well worth it. Then I continued to practice what I was taught and when I wanted to get into something new (i.e. buying apts and syndicating deals) I decided I needed a new mentor who could teach me. It's been the best educational investment of my life. But, again, only because I was ready for it and it filled my knowledge gap.

This is a great thread and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just passionate responses about personal belief. I still credit Carlton Sheets for teaching me the ins and outs about real estate back when I purchased his program. He was one of the original gurus...they just called 'em something different back in the day and sold things in a different way. I go to a lot of events that people in this thread would say are guru events. I have seen it all at these events from the good all the way to the really bad. And after having spent a lot of time sometimes as a participant, sometimes as a speaker and sometimes just as an observer, it all boils down to a few things for me. 1. You can get a lot of education and know-how for free. it is everywhere around us and more attainable than at any point in history and tomorrow it will be EVEN MORE attainable. 2. The people who succeed when they purchase products or programs or coaching are going to succeed anyway. What they are paying for ultimately is a shortening of the learning curve. 3. What galls most who are down on the gurus and events and everything else is that some people do not know how to say no and too often the gurus or people selling don't turn them away. It is a free-will society and with free-will some people will spend...freely. That is hard for some observers to take. It just does not sit right, but it happens everyday in everyday situations like car buying, insurance buying, grocery buying, clothes buying, etc..... If people are willing to pay for it, it will be offered and they will be asked if they would like some more. Does not make it right, it is just reality. Lastly, I do believe in coaching and I personally use coaches. I use one for when I work out at the gym. I use one for discussing financial and estate planning topics. I use one for nutrition and over-all health. I gladly people who are smarting than me to help me make good decisions and hold me accountable. They can charge me as many dollars as they like...it is up to me to say no if I decide it is not worth it. SOME, certainly not all, but some of the companies and individuals that I know who would be classified as gurus in this thread are doing nothing more than the same that the gym trainer, nutrition and financial advisers are doing.

I don't think it needs to be free. There is a big difference in value between a day seminar on tax strategies and entities by an RE attorney for $150, and someone offering a seminar with upsell for $600. The attorney is selling the info advertised for the price advertised, he has no book to sell, or if he does it's included in the price of the course. The seminar educator is usually selling motivation with tidbits. The tidbits can be interesting. I'll sit through anybody's free seminar that ends with a sales pitch for materials or mentoring or whatever. But I'm not going to pay to be sold to. You'll hear endlessly that the cost of a $3500 weekend or a $6K mentoring program will be recovered on the first deal. Many RE educators are first and foremost marketing experts. Keep in mind they need you to believe that their fees are just a drop in the bucket of your potential earnings. So their fees can really be anything, since your potential earnings can be anything. :) The other issue is how general a lot of the info will be. Lease options in CA aren't Lease Options in TX. There are laws in place in both states that are totally different that you're probably not going to learn from a national RE educator. Check out carefully what you get for the fee you pay, and check with others who've attended before and find out what they think they got. Know yourself well enough to know whether you need motivation or strategies.

@Jackie Lange " It still amazes me that people on forums trust someone just because they have more posts than anyone else." People don't trust someone solely based on the number of posts one has, they trust them becuase they have consistently given good advice, and become trustworthy. When someone gives bad advice, whether new or experienced, they are held accountable. However; when at a seminar, conference, etc. there's nobody there to hold the speaker accountable, and what they say is left to stand., therefore; hungry new investors can be easily deceived. As I mentioned before, I have no problem with someone that is an expert in a specific area holding a seminar, etc. to teach others, however; there's no one size fits all when it comes to real estate investing, rehabs, etc. Every area of the country is different.

@Wendell De Guzman that's all fine, but "systems" do not make you money, being able to encounter any type of situation, any type of property, in any location in your market and being able to devise your own "system" to solve problems, bring properties to a higher and best use, to fill and satisfy a need, is what makes you money. Not all RE provides an opportunity to make money off of it immediately or even in the near future, being able to identify properties that can makes you money. While you may follow a "system" and you can make money when you get use to that "system" but I can assure you that you are leaving more money on the table than you're making by walking past all the other opportunities that don't fit in that "system". :) A good investor can design a deal, they solve problems, not just property issues but social issues, financial issues, tax issues, regulatory issues and legal issues. Too many folks try to get into RE thinking they are walking into a store and picking up a box of RE strategies. Just go buy it, take it home, open it up, read the instructions then plug it in and tomorrow someone will hand you money. They buy a product to use, like buying a hammer that will make them a craftsman. It's pitiful, just pitiful to hear newbies, especially young people trying to start out to make a living in this world, much less getting wealthy, and referring to guru crap or some technique or system as an education. I've never met a wealthy man who only used a shovel to make money. Even a prospector knows the lay of the land and what to look for and carries other tools in his bag. The reason J. Scott is successful is because he has an education, he understands the basics of RE, he knows the types of deeds and interests that are conveyed, he can value a property, he understands his market and provides a product that fills the needs in demand. He knows the basics very well and applies those fundamentals in what he does. He complies with laws I'm sure and he can deal with people. He can solve problems that arise or knows how to get them solved. I've said it a hundred times, learn the basics of real estate, the flow of a transaction, from putting a for sale sign up to getting your check at closing. Every detail, every function, how other support people provide what they do to make that happen. Know your local customs and the laws that apply to you and your property in buying, selling or holding rentals. Understand what Realtors can and can not do. Learning this stuff in a RE school qualifies as an education. Then you can go to all the seminars, boot camps, buy tapes and whatever the RE pushers have for that day. Difference is, you'll likely avoid the scammers and dumb twits because you know the basics, what can and can't be done and how things are suppose to be done and you can then say.....Ha, that's a bunch of junk or you can say.....that sounds worthwhile, that's a valid strategy. Drug dealers on the corner only sell to those willing to buy their junk who have expectations without really knowing what they are buying. :)

Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Bill Gulley

Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

As to staying current. RE changes, rules change, laws change, markets change, but the basics of RE transactions don't change, people don't really change collectively, most laws don't change, ethics don't change nor do ways to structure deals. So, really, there isn't that much about staying current when someone just has a ton of experience. RE at this small investor level just isn't difficult for those with a good grasp of the industry. I've been helping others in various aspects locally. I don't need to buy a house, in fact I don't want one, don't need one. Everyone who truly reaches their goals in the game will usually get to the same point. Who knows, one more guy might show up to my funeral. :)

Maybe most laws don't change, but enough to cost a lot of money or get you in trouble if you don't know and don't comply.

Even after the Protecting Tenants in Foreclosure Act went into place, foreclosure message boards were filled with REI educators advising foreclosure sale buyers to ignore leases and that tenants had no tenancy rights. They kept citing laws about leases being extinguished at sale because that was true last year. They were so, so wrong. The reason they weren't up to date was because they weren't currently buying on the courthouse steps and evicting bonafide tenants so they truly weren't aware of tenant rights after foreclosure and the new law. These were well known REI educators people who sell mentorship and coaching on foreclosures for serious money.

I recommend that everyone disregard any REI educator's advice about seller financing unless you are convinced they are actively doing seller financing in compliance with Dodd Frank....and can tell you how they are doing so.

Anyone who used to do lease options in Texas knows that laws can change your business strategy.

Then there are things as annoying as using the grant deed for California that came with the course from the famous attorney REI educator over there in the Rockies, only to find that it wasn't recordable because the recording law had changed the language two years earlier. Cost me money and cost me time. Only reason it wasn't up to date was because the REI educator hadn't used it himself in the last two years.

These are just a few of the plenty of reasons to require that an REI educator be actively doing deals and/or be up-to-date.

I'm only asking or responding because you quoted me above.

I never posted anything about ignoring leases, in fact I pointed out the new 6 month requirements several times and posted the issues several times.

I suppose you suggest that as you do seller financing in Cali. I'm not sure if you are referring to me as an educator or not. I don't really address SF in Cali as to the origination requirements being way out of the main stream for the rest of the country, there's always 10% that have to be different. Each state has unique aspects but is pretty uniform in the rest of the country. I do agree that most who write about SF transactions are wrong somewhere in something. Just because someone is doing 5 SF deals a week is absolutely no indication they are doing anything right, we have people here who have been doing screw stuff for 10, 20 and 30 years who don't have a clue, the level of activity is no indication of compliance or acceptable practice or good technique much less operating in the public interest which any good business will do.

The SAFE Act and Dodd-Frank are, to me, are minor aspects that need to be dealt with. The reason they seem to be such major aspects to others here is simply the lack of understanding and inability from the lack of lending experience and training to relate the issues of these new requirements in single family transactions into the realm of seller financing and consumer financing. The way to do these is to comply, pretty simple, so advising that no one listen to anyone is pretty poor advice. I've said comply with the new restrictions at least a hundred times, I'm sure. I assume you don't have an issue with compliance, since I was quoted, I'm not sure.

Seems I also pound away at not taking anything off the internet and using it without checking it out locally first. I say that for the reasons you mentioned. There are always state and local issues that change, here as well as in other places that are automating, they recently changed the margin requirements for filings, so all (or at least many of) the old instruments became scratch paper. But then, I'm not that RE attorney promoting anything from the Rockies, if it's who I think you're talking about, I'd say don't even listen to that guy in the first place, a law degree doesn't make you a RE expert, but it's easier for one in RE to become an expert if they have a law degree. Too bad some use a Bar License to promote some poor advice, if they weren't doing that they might be chasing an ambulance. I personally know of a RE operator attorney who has about another 10 years on a 25+ sentence left in prison.

Yes, leases in Texas are really not an issue, we have some currently. Options are another matter, 6 month, renewal issues, installment sales, disguised sales are or can be issues anywhere but states are unique, especially in Texas. I've not really been addressing these matters, but I can. If we need to drill deeper in Texas, you'll find that mineral rights and title coverage can have greater issues. AZ likes their water rights, WY appears to still be doing contracts for deed in spite of the national swing toward the issues of circumventing the foreclosure process that appears to be a title matter. Please send me a dollar for each time I've said "all RE is local".

Selecting someone to listen to is much more about the scope of advice given than how many deals they have ever done, over 40 years or the past 40 or even 4 months. Doing 100 deals in the past two years is still almost no experience at all, zip, notta, it's not a determining factor as to knowledge, education, compliance, as it totally depends on what is being advised. Then, there is their location, after 100 deals in Timbucktoo, they should be very aware of how deeds get filed, they may still not have a clue how to underwrite a seller financed transaction (and I'm sure they won't), especially since no two are ever identical. An example, I did short sales before they ever got a name, now, not only is it a specialization but highly defined by law and regulation. I advised someone here last year in a SS, but turned it over to a Realtor. I don't give advice beyond my self imposed restrictions. I've done a few tax liens here, but no where else, you won't find me giving tax lien investing either.

Now, if you had not made these comments under the circumstances of quoting me, I'd probably not even reply, but it seems it's a direct implication to my posts, in which case I will respond. Not sure if that was the intent or not.

If those comments weren't applicable to my post, please disregard :)

Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

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