Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes

Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information?

I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there.

To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible.

The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it.

I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free.

I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with:

- Paying more than the information is worth

- Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information

- Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information

- Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition

- Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information

- Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful

I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true:

1. The education costs more than it's worth;

2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing;

3. The educator isn't doing it for the money.

If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though.

The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

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Rick Baggenstoss
Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
I buy some real estate education from academics, like the Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies, and people who are trust worthy. I've long ago learned not to listen too much to anecdotal evidence, but to pursue well-vetted facts.

A great way, besides networking on sites, face to face with others who are trust worthy, is to read vetted, scrutinized books/articles.

Although they are dry, academics will pack valuable information into a paper. There's no fluff, but it's not entirely useful for an investor.

Here's one of my recent favorites: THE ROLE OF INVESTORS IN THE SINGLE-FAMILY MARKET IN DISTRESSED NEIGHBORHOODS: THE CASE OF ATLANTA

My point is, there's a wealth of great, free information. If you're drawn in by a guru because 'it's a turnkey way to make $10k, $20k or even $30k" in a month, then you're in trouble before you start (another useless anecdote).

Rick
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
12y
@Dion DePaoli

OK Dion you stepped into that one :) I got my RE license in CA at the age of 18 in 1975.. got my brokers at 20 in CA both as early as you can get them. Still have active license there even though I have not lived there in 12 years but I refer bizz to agents I know and make some really nice referral fee's for just providing a name of someone interested.. I am a RE Broker in Oregon were I live I have been in active for a year but am activating the license shortly. I am a RE broker in MS ( in active but starting again) I became a broker In MS to deal with my OREO that I owned I wanted the ability to list my own deals and have access to the MLS without have to use an Agent .Being a RE broker and having access to MLS is in my mind critical to profitability in the markets you work. I am also a licensed NMLS Mortgage Banker in Oregon and soon to be in 39 states when I do the UTS test later this month..My LO is inactive in Oregon B/C I only do construction loans in Oregon and its not required to have a license to do those. The Private Money lending that we do in the Turn Key states are commercial Loans so no license required.. The Safe act has been talked about ad Naseum .

The act of taking a licensee course does not prepare you for real world it just gives you the knowledge to pass the test and to be familiar with basic laws of Agency, terminology that one will need in the business , Ethics , etc etc.

You learn the bizz by doing the bizz. All these seminars folks go to are really just trying to take what most of us take years learning and depart that wisdom to you in a matter of days weeks or months. You as someone trying to break into the field just don't know what you don't know..

ONE last point and I think its a big one... RE is so Regionalized. and you have this business of Turn key and flipping that started in earnest about 20 years ago. Where you have all these companies selling properties without the benefit of RE agents and or MLS .. And these are pretty much investment rentals East of the Mississippi river.. Here on the West coast the wholesaler is just a different animal.. When I buy a foreclosure here in Oregon or CA for example I put it on MLS and sell it 95% of the time to a home owner.. What I see East of the Big Miss is that most of these homes go to Cash flow investors and would be technically OFF market.. I know some of you probably sell to homeowners but correct me if I am wrong but I am thinking most of you are flipping to those that want to buy and hold for long term wealth or that is what the average investor has read about and is trying to achieve.. The other major point is.. in the West rentals buy and large are apartments NOT SFR's.. Like it is in the Mid west and up until the 08 crash only 6% of all SFR's on the West coast were rentals. compared to say Memphis or other MId west towns were that number could be 40 to 55%.. Getting a RE license is just the first step you will learn by working in the community put in some time and learn it right.. Or you can go the seminar guru route and maybe hit on a small point that resonates.

Nothing like real everyday experience to help you along...

Its amazing how people think they can go from Not knowing anything about a bizz ( like RE) and then become an expert in a year...

If you use analogy of say becoming a pilot.. You can't just go to a seminar and learn how to fly a jet. You have to go through the progression,s you learn in a little single engine.. then get a Instrument rating then a multi rating then a type rating in a JEt etc etc.. In the old days you could be a first officer with 300 hours total time .. WEll that did not work out so well after some high profile accidents now its 1500 hours will substantial turbine time... I have been a pilot for 30 years ... What I fly now and where I fly I would never have done when I was starting out :)
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Matt B.
OP
Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
12y
You know I really didn't expect so many passionate responses, on both sides, when I posted the question. While there is no right answer to the question, I think I should have posed it differently.

On hindsight I should have asked, why do so many think real estate education and information needs to always be free?

When I posted it, I was frustrated at the amount of posts I read, where someone stated that you can get all the information you need to invest in real estate right here and for free. I don't believe everyone needs to pay to take a seminar to succeed in this business. Also, I think this is a great site. But, to state that all you need to know is available right here for free, is just as naive as thinking you can learn everything you need to know at a seminar.

Thanks for the responses.
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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by Kristine Marie Poe:

Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
@J Scott - Your argument is not wrong, I just think it is flawed a little...maybe.

Chris -

But, if a real estate coach is truly world class (i.e., his coaching warrants hundreds or thousands of dollars per hour), then I would argue that the highest and best of his time is doing real estate deals, not teaching.

Which begs the question -- if someone can make more money doing one thing, why is he doing something else?

Well, one of you gentlemen has a brother that charges mega bucks for coaching/mentoring. I'm assuming a brother might know a little about the business from the inside. What say you? Is the coaching more profitable than the deal making in his case?

Whew, this one is tough - I had this really long detailed answer written up and decided that was way too long! It is personal for me, because I have so much respect for my brother as a person and as an entrepreneur and business coach. I turn to him weekly for his input on so many different aspects of business. So my answer is going to be biased, but pretty straight forward. Kent is a very successful entrepreneur and though I do not know the daily workings of his business or his financials, I would venture to say that with all the businesses he has developed and his own personal business and entrepreneurial coaching, it would be tough for him to do enough deals to match it. I know he still buys and sells and has partners who do that with him, but his personal fulfillment comes from the coaching side of his business. That is without me knowing anything about the workings of his companies.

He is one of the few people that I know who really enjoys and gets fulfillment from working with other entrepreneurs and business owners and then seeing them make adjustments and grow. He is not a real estate coach. He is however a damn good entrepreneur and business developer and coach. He has built multiple different businesses around his core competency and his families core competencies and he works his butt off. He puts in the time to be successful. I am not going to paint him as altruistic. He absolutely values his time and charges for it. But, he also balances his life with family and giving back. He is one of the few people I know who has designed his daily life to meet his personal, spiritual, family and financial goals and needs, so for that I applaud him and am amazed.

Lastly, my perception is that many people who promote a new product or service or book - could make more money doing deals. But there is a notion that products, services, coaching and seminars are easy money. I think that it is much easier to make a living actively doing deals than it is to be successful and have high quality as a service and product developer.
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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Joe Fairless:

I've had two paid mentors at very specific times in my real estate career. My first was after I had a couple homes and was looking to take it to the next level. I learned what I needed to learn for 6 months then we went our separate ways. Well worth it. Then I continued to practice what I was taught and when I wanted to get into something new (i.e. buying apts and syndicating deals) I decided I needed a new mentor who could teach me. It's been the best educational investment of my life. But, again, only because I was ready for it and it filled my knowledge gap.

This is a great statement. People who are ready, maybe even have some base knowledge and experience are the ones who gain the most from coaching, mentoring, seminars, books, etc...

I made a point earlier that those who succeed after paying for an education (no matter how you paid for it) most likely will succeed anyway. They pay for an accelerated learning curve. It is much easier to go from having some basic knowledge and progress than it is to go form knowing nothing.
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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @J Scott:

Which begs the question -- if someone can make more money doing one thing, why is he doing something else?

Certainly, the answer could be, "Because he wants to help people," or something else relatively altruistic. But, more likely than not, the fact of the matter is that the person couldn't really be making more money doing the other thing. In other words, he's not as world class as he might lead people to believe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

J -

Just as an aside, having met you a couple of years ago in Denver and conversed back and forth on here - I have much respect for you. BP won't let me "vote" for your posts more than a couple of times a day, but you are one of the handful of posters who I really enjoy reading and always learn a little something from. So I appreciate the back and forth a lot.

I don't think altruism slips in too often in the minds of people selling things. Ultimately, it is about making money. You might consider though that some people are following their core competency. It may not be that they were bad at doing one thing, just better at doing another.

I wanted to be a professional soccer player. I made it to the collegiate level and realized I was going to be pretty damn poor if I followed that dream. Actually, I would have been broke - it was not going to happen. But I found out I was a damn good soccer coach. And, I was a damn good soccer coach trainer. So for a period of time, I was a professional soccer coach and gave clinics to other coaches. I didn't stop playing because I was not good at it (certainly not world class). I stopped because my time was way more valuable as a private coach and that is where I learned about the value of my time and what I could earn with it.

My analogy is not perfect, but hopefully it at least points out that a person coaching or selling a product based on their experience does not mean a thing. It does not mean that they are the greatest of all time and worth every penny and it does not mean that they sucked so bad at it that they had to find another way to make money. Sometimes, it just means they are choosing to do something else based on what they do best.

You, my friend, would probably be a damn good guru...just sayin'!
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Ben Skove
Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 81 votes
12y
Jumping in awfully late in the discussion, I'll speak for why I generally hold tight to my purse strings. I come from an academic background, and when I've taken classes, I know what I'm getting. The university or organization behind the course is accredited. The teacher is vetted. The subject matter is presented in a transparent manner. (I've never had a professor tell me that if I want to really master the course, I need to meet him at the back of the classroom with my credit card.)

I'm sure there are good real estate teachers (coaches, gurus) out there. However, it's the Wild West in terms of differentiating the good from the bad, and the signal to noise ratio is very low.

There's also difficulty in figuring out who's actually good at teaching. I've been an instructor before, and the skill set is not the same as it is to practice the subject itself. Being great at RE doesn't necessarily make you a good instructor (and vice-versa.)

What would be nice would be the same sorts of stats that schools put out - the equivalent of independently determined graduation rates, test scores, etc., not just cherry-picked student "success stories." If we insist that RE is all about the numbers, shouldn't we expect the same from RE education?
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:

@Chris Clothier -- Very much likewise...

In fact, when having these discussions, I often consider the fact that your brother is a full-time real estate coach, and the fact that I have so much respect for how you appear to conduct your business indicates to me that he probably does things in a very professional manner as well (I have never met him, but this is a "guilt by association" thing in a good way).

I try to always be careful to differentiate between the guru industry as a whole and individual coaches who may or may not be representative of that industry. There's no doubt in my mind that there are many great coaches who are worth every penny, and there's no doubt that there are many more who give them a bad name.

Btw, I experience this every day as an investor -- people hear that I "flip houses" and suddenly I'm scum of the earth. Which is why I try to always disclaim my responses to these threads with the fact that there are good coaches out there, even if the industry as a whole is probably less-than-scrupulous.

As you said above, Joe hit the nail on the head -- people need to be ready for a coach and should have specific goals in mind when finding a coach. If the student knows what they want/need, they're much more likely to be able to vet someone as a potential coach and they're much more likely to get out of it what they want/expect.

If the result of my postings is that new investors triple-down on their due diligence before hiring a coach or buying a course, I feel like both they -- and the good coaches out there -- will win. The only losers will be those who don't provide a good product, and they deserve to lose...I think we can all agree on that.
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Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:

Originally posted by @K. Marie Poe:

Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
@J Scott - Your argument is not wrong, I just think it is flawed a little...maybe.

Chris -

But, if a real estate coach is truly world class (i.e., his coaching warrants hundreds or thousands of dollars per hour), then I would argue that the highest and best of his time is doing real estate deals, not teaching.

Which begs the question -- if someone can make more money doing one thing, why is he doing something else?

Well, one of you gentlemen has a brother that charges mega bucks for coaching/mentoring. I'm assuming a brother might know a little about the business from the inside. What say you? Is the coaching more profitable than the deal making in his case?

He is not a real estate coach.

Chris: thanks for your reply. Kent's website sells his coaching and mentoring and calls it that. Google search and it takes you to coaching links (with Than Merrill). And last year I was bombarded with email blasts to sign up for the exclusive one-on-one training to take my business to the next level. I'd like to take my business to the next level. Since Kent is in CA I was interested butwasn't able to confirm anywhere that it would be worth the cost for me.

I'm aware that RE education isn't easy money. It's a business like any other that requires creativity, commitment, time, and resources. I would say REI education is different from many other fields though, in that learning from active deal makers is key. People who aren't cranking out deals are often not to up-to-date. The variables and changes in technology, laws and the RE market demand, IMO, that the educator be on top of it. I think that is why so many of us want to know where the REI educator has been focusing their attention.
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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:

Originally posted by Kristine Marie Poe:

Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
@J Scott - Your argument is not wrong, I just think it is flawed a little...maybe.

Chris -

But, if a real estate coach is truly world class (i.e., his coaching warrants hundreds or thousands of dollars per hour), then I would argue that the highest and best of his time is doing real estate deals, not teaching.

Which begs the question -- if someone can make more money doing one thing, why is he doing something else?

Well, one of you gentlemen has a brother that charges mega bucks for coaching/mentoring. I'm assuming a brother might know a little about the business from the inside. What say you? Is the coaching more profitable than the deal making in his case?

He is not a real estate coach.

Chris: thanks for your reply. Kent's website sells his coaching and mentoring and calls it that. Google search and it takes you to coaching links (with Than Merrill). And last year I was bombarded with email blasts to sign up for the exclusive one-on-one training to take my business to the next level. I'd like to take my business to the next level. Since Kent is in CA I was interested butwasn't able to confirm anywhere that it would be worth the cost for me.

I'm aware that RE education isn't easy money. It's a business like any other that requires creativity, commitment, time, and resources. I would say REI education is different from many other fields though, in that learning from active deal makers is key. People who aren't cranking out deals are often not to up-to-date. The variables and changes in technology, laws and the RE market demand, IMO, that the educator be on top of it. I think that is why so many of us want to know where the REI educator has been focusing their attention.

Kind of reading between the lines on your reply, I want to make sure you understood the one line you highlighted from my response. Kent is not a real estate coach only. He is absolutely a business coach and focuses more on business development and entrepreneurial thought whether the business is real estate or not. In early December I was with him in San Diego and met some of the people he coaches and there was group of software developers from Canada, a McDonalds franchise of all things out of Illinois, a fitness/nutritionists from San Diego, a couple of real estate company owners and several internet and copy write entrepreneurs. They all work with Kent and they were there for a business mastermind so - when I wrote that he is not a real estate coach, I meant that he is not a real estate only coach. He knows the business, but knows Business, Sales, Processes, Scaling, Modeling, Testing, Development, etc... far better than just how to buy and sell houses.
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Shaun Reilly
Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
12y
Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:
However, the RE agent course doesn't teach ownership or management techniques. Nor does a MLB course teach how to invest in mortgages.

The license course -- in my opinion -- was useless. What I did find useful was actually affiliating with a broker, making offers and dealing with other agents. It gave me a perspective on the industry that you don't get if you just hire out your buying and selling.

Actually interacting with listing agents, buyer agents and buyers themselves gave us a perspective that shaped the way we built our business.

But again, the actual licensing process, course and testwork was ridiculously useless...

I guess it all depends on what your expectations are.

I didn't at all think I was going to learn a single thing about "how" to be a real estate investor when I took the class. I was expecting to learn about basic real estate fundamentals, local customs and variances, our local contracts and general and state real estate laws. For these expectations it was a marvelous class and a ridiculous value for the amount of time they teach.

Yes it would be highly disappointing if you thought they were going to teach you anything about investing (Other than the income approach of valuing a property).

(It also doesn't teach you anything about being an effective agent, which would be a more understandable expectation)
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Ned CareyPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Ellis San Jose:
"Price is only an issue in the absence of value."

That is worth repeating. There has been an explosion of real estate Gurus. Many with little experience and just repeating what they heard.

I should point out that most of that money was spent after I was already earning money in real estate. Spending a portion of your income on education is no different than spending a portion on marketing - it is good business.

Spending that kind of money before you have even done a deal is foolhardy.
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Jeff Greenberg
Real Estate Consultant · Camarillo, CA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
I have been reading this thread with great interest as I see great value in this discussion. As a sponsor of two REI clubs with a “no sales” policy, I am often asked if I could recommend any seminars or Guru’s that might provide them with an accelerated learning curve. After I tell them about biggerpockets, I usually tell them to talk to other investors, that are actually doing deals, and ask the same question. I have talked to many wantabe investors that talk the talk, but have not done a deal yet. Until an investor does a deal based on knowledge gained by some program or seminar, they are merely justifying their expenditure.

Another thing I tell newbes is to find someone that is doing what you want to do and to find a way to be of assistance to them. Don’t expect a busy investor to stop what they are doing and mentor you. Ask what you can do for them.

I agree that most of the participants in most of the seminars out there, will never do anything. They will spend their 5, 10, 20, even 50k and spend the rest of their lives trying to pay it off. The less than 1% that has a strong enough “why” and continues to get educated will be the ones to succeed. Listening to the BP podcasts, the resounding answer to the last question, about why some succeed and others do not, is persistence.

I am a product of a guru, that puts on expensive seminars, upsells, and brings in other to try to get you to the back of the room. I have also learned a lot from him and have become good friends with many of the people that traveled in his circle. I am successful, but nowhere near where I want to be. I feel that I am part of that 1% that persisted and did not disappear over the years.

I guess what I am trying to say is, spending 50k does not guarantee success, nor does spending hours on BP. I am all for learning from someone else’s mistakes and triumphs. Everyone needs a mentor to speed up the process. That mentor could be BP, a guru, books in the library, or a personal coach. As @Joe Fairless mentioned they need to be ready to learn, and I truly believe that they must have a strong “why”. Why am I spending hours and hours on real estate when I would rather be spending time: with my kids, with my spouse, skiing, watching football, ……………….

Real estate is not a get rich quick process, but you can gain wealth over time.
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Erik HitzelbergerPro Member
Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2011 · 331 posts · 278 votes
12y
I too have followed this with great interest. My first observation is that the level of professionalism in this discussion is generally very high. This is a divisive topic on BP yet, for the most part, both sides were discussed with little rhetoric and without demeaning others. Civility. Online. How novel?!

Like @Ned Carey I have spent a significant amount of money on seminars, courses and mentors. I consider every single penny well-spent. My biggest regret is that I didn't seek out education sooner. The costs I incurred trying to do it on my own exceeded what I paid to others. When I say this, I include time, missed opportunities and other opportunity costs in that calculation.

In 2009, my house-flipping business hit the wall. My lending sources dried up and I was stuck. After some research, I found a coach/guru to teach be lease-options, subject-to, etc. (Ironically, he was a BP contributor at the time). His system was kind of generic, but it was enough to get me going and he was there when I had questions. I locked up my first deal in about a month and have done dozens since.

Could I have found all of the same info on BP? Probably. But the notion that doing so is FREE is absurd. Time is valuable. I had a family and was working a FT job. Those few hours I had to spend each week were precious and I wanted to spend them DOING not LEARNING.

Real estate investing is hard. Anyone who says differently is either lying or hasn't done a deal. Having someone to teach you, answer questions, or provide info that saves you from making mistakes is not foolish, in fact, it is a good business decision. You can certainly do it on you own, but I'm not convinced it is "cheaper."

The caveat is that you need to be in business. If you don't take action, then the time you spent on BP and the money you paid for the seminars is absolutely wasted.
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Bryan Snider
Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2012 · 19 posts · 10 votes
12y
This is a great discussion. As a reader of BP, I appreciate the time that people spend sharing information on this site. Each of you deserve thanks for sharing your perspective. Here is my contribution to this discussion.

Educators of any type can be placed into one of two categories:

Category #1: Educators who provide a value that is greater than the price they charge for it.

Category #2: Educators who charge more for the information than the value it brings to your life or your business.

As a community of BP readers/contributors, we should not automatically stereotype all Educators into category #2. Rather, we should help one another identify and benefit from the Educators who are in category #1. If we focused on doing this, the category 2 educators would go find something else to do.

The key for each of us is to understand the value that it brings to our unique situation, which begins with the value we place on our time. Depending on where you are in your investing journey, the same information may be more or less valuable to you than to someone else. A throwing-lesson from Tim Tebow is more valuable to an aspiring college quarterback than it would be to Peyton Manning. Likewise, a system that leverages other people's time and expertise to help you flip houses is more valuable if you are working a full-time job than if you have 60 hours per week to dedicate to flipping houses.

There are plenty of dishonest people that we will encounter in all facets of life. However, it is reasonable to think that there are Educators who want to earn an honest living, even a lucrative living, by teaching others to do what they have been successful doing.
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Shaun Reilly
Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
12y
@Bryan Snider

"A throwing-lesson from Tim Tebow is more valuable to an aspiring college quarterback than it would be to Peyton Manning."

I have video from Sunday that would contradict this statement. :)
1 Reply
Tony H.
Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2014 · 49 posts · 11 votes
12y
MY advice. Learn the fundamentals, the traditional routes (classes), keep an eye out for any new legalities. And be creative. Always leave yourself a way out just in case you learn something doesn't pass the smell test. As you mentioned, a lot of seminar folks are just that, selling seminars - all theory. I like learning everything I can - but have found my BEST knowledge sources have been knowing fundamentals, protecting yourself, don't try to screw people (not saying you are, just that leads to a bad rep and no one will want to deal with you..). Another good source are escrow companies. Again, do your own due diligence, keep your head about you - and you probably shouldn't have to attend many seminars. Maybe one here and there if it's niche. Other than that, be honest, learn, take classes, have fun and be creative.
1 Reply
Bryan Snider
Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2012 · 19 posts · 10 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Shaun Reilly:
@Bryan Snider

"A throwing-lesson from Tim Tebow is more valuable to an aspiring college quarterback than it would be to Peyton Manning."

I have video from Sunday that would contradict this statement. :)

Ha! I purposely chose that comparison because I knew it would get a good laugh from fellow football fans. I really wanted to see Manning succeed but it just wasn't his night to shine I guess.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
12y
@Tony H. fundementials and learn from a title co.. good advice... as a young newly minted RE agent in CA.. My fathers attorney gave me a very sage bit of advice.. He said learn the court house,, IE learn how to run title , dig up maps in the surveyors offices Learn how foreclosure and tax sales really work.

And to that end In the good ole days in CA when title plants were still done by hand ( now all on computer) I befriended a title examiner and would bring in address of properties I was interested and he would let me watch him as he went through the book and pages and did a title exam.. I also worked with my fathers surveryor part time holding the chain and he tought me how to find plat maps and recorded subdivisions that had been forgotten.. those are two valuable lessons that I learned early on and used profitably to this day. Its nice to be able to go to any court house in the US and do your own research instead of waiting on the attorney or abstractor or title co. to give you info to chase down that deal.

My favorite was finding old subdivisions in CA that were platted in the 20's and the assessor for tax bill convenience converted the lots to one AP # 40 years ago. Instead of sending the same owner 50 bills they sent them one bill. You dig out the old plat... see that in fact that 5 acre tract has a shadow plat under it. take it over to the title co. and the planning depart. get lot confirmations and for not much money you have 50 legal lots of record and off you go.. WE did this many times in Santa Cruz,Sonoma and Lake co CA... a lot of the lots are worthless even today but there was enough to make it profitable at the time... I think last time I checked the county records in Lake co. we still had 100 plus properties in our name :) so I agree learn from a title co if they will give you the time go into the recorders office pull out the books dust them off and figure out how you run a chain of title all good things to know and give you a leg up,
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2 Reply
Rachel H.
San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
I think most give their advice on here due to their experience with the seminar industry. For many just starting out, it can be a maze of confusion being pitched on a variety of topics.

Unfortunately, some get duped and don't get much out of it. On the other hand, there may be others who feel it's a worthwhile experience. I think what others are measuring here are the deals done.

It's all a matter of perspective — people may have different goals than others. This is why the answers to this question may vary.

For the seasoned folks, we were all there at one time. Personally, I've spent thousands on seminars, trainings, books, courses, etc. Looking back, I don't think there was one seminar that tied everything together and got me where I am today. It's definitely been a bumpy ride but it's been the experience (both in the field and out of the field) that has helped the most.

I do have some fond memories of these events — people I met and had intelligent conversations with. I remember some folks even offering to share notes on sessions some could not attend. Many conversations over breakfasts, lunches, and dinners meeting folks with all different levels of experience whether it be in real estate investing or other realms of business.

Thinking back, I don't think it was a complete waste of time. Yes, I spent a lot of money where I could have just read online or on the forums. But, the experience itself of meeting folks interested in the same subjects in a formal environment is not something easily duplicated in the online world.

Just my thoughts, hope this helps! :)
2 Reply
Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y
Well, I just haven't been paying attention to this as I thought I said enough and had nothing to offer. :)

Great points, opinions and thoughts here. Yes, there are others too.

@J Scott and @Chris Clothier good discussions. Hope I don't blow some theories out the window, but;

After 40 years of being in RE one way or another, there hasn't been much I've not seen, heard of or done. While I like money, posting on BP or answering questions in PMs or e-mails, or talking on the phone with others or even meeting a few starting out, to me, it's not about the money.

My highest and best use of my time is anchored in keeping folks out of trouble, then helping them if I can or providing some nuggets at times.

Can't help but think that the discussions and comments about those with high post counts here on BP, if not directed at me, at least applied in some ways.

Trust me, I don't need to live in a third world country on the side of a mountain to enjoy financial freedom, I achieved that years ago right here and I don't need nor have I ever sought any financial compensation for, to me this is a past time.

I also don't consider myself as a coach or educator, if I am I hope I'd be in that #1 group above, guess I'd have to be since the price is free!

I spend most of my time simply discounting what might be bad advice, frankly I don't like feeling that I have to do that, I'd rather go into deeper aspects of investing, but the first issue is to ensure folks get in trouble or do unethical things as they don't realize this is a long haul business.

I've not seen a guru or anyone selling something not claim they had expertise, got wealthy or reached financial freedom and telling folks anyone can do what they did or can achieve the same with their product. I think most lie. You should be able to see ones ethics in their products, if they are selling materials that suggest illegal activities, I'd have to conclude they lack ethics.

As to staying current. RE changes, rules change, laws change, markets change, but the basics of RE transactions don't change, people don't really change collectively, most laws don't change, ethics don't change nor do ways to structure deals. So, really, there isn't that much about staying current when someone just has a ton of experience. RE at this small investor level just isn't difficult for those with a good grasp of the industry. I've been helping others in various aspects locally. I don't need to buy a house, in fact I don't want one, don't need one. Everyone who truly reaches their goals in the game will usually get to the same point. Who knows, one more guy might show up to my funeral. :)

I'm not just big on a formal education, I'm huge on a formal education. I do recognize that not everyone needs to go there nor should they.

Actually, as it was mentioned up there, getting into the RE business, IMO, doesn't even begin with RE, it begins in aspects of business, just plain old general business aspects. Folks don't understand the concept of consideration in a contract or the differences in contracts, no idea of what constitutes a position of trust or the different types of agency, no concept of tort or liability. By the time they hit the seminars and courses that avoid the real business issues, like trying to eat just the center of a pizza without touching it, I understand the confusion.

The very best professional seminars will be rather dry, technical, at a level of difficulty that will require study and research, if you can find one.

IMO, if someone has to begins selling a teaching course by the embellishment of themselves, the deals they did or the years they did a few strategies and then claim expertise, you've got a problem trying to learn from them. It's the "How To" bunch. I can teach a monkey to sell, or fill out a contract, I'd rather teach someone how to think, analyze, understand parameters, influences, requirements and relate to people so they can design their own structure to succeed.

Get to know people first, see where their ethics are, if you know the basics then you'll have a BS meter to judge what they are claiming to know. Paying those folks, good educators is only fair. :)
1 Reply
Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

As to staying current. RE changes, rules change, laws change, markets change, but the basics of RE transactions don't change, people don't really change collectively, most laws don't change, ethics don't change nor do ways to structure deals. So, really, there isn't that much about staying current when someone just has a ton of experience. RE at this small investor level just isn't difficult for those with a good grasp of the industry. I've been helping others in various aspects locally. I don't need to buy a house, in fact I don't want one, don't need one. Everyone who truly reaches their goals in the game will usually get to the same point. Who knows, one more guy might show up to my funeral. :)

Maybe most laws don't change, but enough to cost a lot of money or get you in trouble if you don't know and don't comply.

Even after the Protecting Tenants in Foreclosure Act went into place, foreclosure message boards were filled with REI educators advising foreclosure sale buyers to ignore leases and that tenants had no tenancy rights. They kept citing laws about leases being extinguished at sale because that was true last year. They were so, so wrong. The reason they weren't up to date was because they weren't currently buying on the courthouse steps and evicting bonafide tenants so they truly weren't aware of tenant rights after foreclosure and the new law. These were well known REI educators people who sell mentorship and coaching on foreclosures for serious money.

I recommend that everyone disregard any REI educator's advice about seller financing unless you are convinced they are actively doing seller financing in compliance with Dodd Frank....and can tell you how they are doing so.

Anyone who used to do lease options in Texas knows that laws can change your business strategy.

Then there are things as annoying as using the grant deed for California that came with the course from the famous attorney REI educator over there in the Rockies, only to find that it wasn't recordable because the recording law had changed the language two years earlier. Cost me money and cost me time. Only reason it wasn't up to date was because the REI educator hadn't used it himself in the last two years.

These are just a few of the plenty of reasons to require that an REI educator be actively doing deals and/or be up-to-date.
2 Reply
Brian Gibbons
Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Only reason it wasn't up to date was because the REI educator hadn't used it himself in the last two years. These are just a few of the plenty of reasons to require that an REI educator be actively doing deals and/or be up-to-date.

You know, understanding conveyancing local customs and forms (for example a friendship with an escrow agent) is important. @Shaun Reilly was saying something a while ago about Mass State conventions for Quit Claim Deeds are nothing like other New England States.

I live in Los Angeles, and Central Coast (where @K. Marie Poe lives) is different than N Cal.

I never trust any REI National Educator's forms "out of the box", I use them as a Guide, and see a local and respected Real Estate Lawyer that knows the forms and updates.

Finding an innovative and clever attorney for your agreement engineering is no small feat. That starts with your REIA President and asking good questions, and inspecting what you expect.

Just sayin' :)

0 Reply
Account Closed
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Brian Gibbons:

Only reason it wasn't up to date was because the REI educator hadn't used it himself in the last two years. These are just a few of the plenty of reasons to require that an REI educator be actively doing deals and/or be up-to-date.
You know, understanding conveyancing local customs and forms (for example a friendship with an escrow agent) is important. @Shaun Reilly was saying something a while ago about Mass State conventions for Quit Claim Deeds are nothing like other New England States.

I live in Los Angeles, and Central Coast (where @K. Marie Poe lives) is different than N Cal.

I never trust any REI National Educator's forms "out of the box", I use them as a Guide, and see a local and respected Real Estate Lawyer that knows the forms and updates.

Finding an innovative and clever attorney for your agreement engineering is no small feat. That starts with your REIA President and asking good questions, and inspecting what you expect.

Just sayin' :)

This was back in the day when the attorney who shall not be named was investing in CA, or so we were told. You know, back when his mother was running the LA club. Maybe she still is.

Totally my bad and he's not responsible for my reliance on his materials. However, why even send out contracts or docs if you're not going to guarantee that they are current and compliant? They didn't come with a giant disclaimer saying: these may be out of date.

At this point, because title is so strict now, every DIY doc I do has to be redone by title with their notary or an affidavit is required. So I don't prepare docs and record DIY anymore unless I know the grantees are not going to disappear on me.
0 Reply
Brian Gibbons
Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
I get that @K. Marie Poe!

His idea on reverse assignment on a sandwich lease option is awesome tho!
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