Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information? I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there. To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible. The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it. I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free. I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with: - Paying more than the information is worth - Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information - Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information - Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition - Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information - Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true: 1. The education costs more than it's worth; 2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing; 3. The educator isn't doing it for the money. If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though. The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

I too have followed this with great interest. My first observation is that the level of professionalism in this discussion is generally very high. This is a divisive topic on BP yet, for the most part, both sides were discussed with little rhetoric and without demeaning others. Civility. Online. How novel?! Like @Ned Carey I have spent a significant amount of money on seminars, courses and mentors. I consider every single penny well-spent. My biggest regret is that I didn't seek out education sooner. The costs I incurred trying to do it on my own exceeded what I paid to others. When I say this, I include time, missed opportunities and other opportunity costs in that calculation. In 2009, my house-flipping business hit the wall. My lending sources dried up and I was stuck. After some research, I found a coach/guru to teach be lease-options, subject-to, etc. (Ironically, he was a BP contributor at the time). His system was kind of generic, but it was enough to get me going and he was there when I had questions. I locked up my first deal in about a month and have done dozens since. Could I have found all of the same info on BP? Probably. But the notion that doing so is FREE is absurd. Time is valuable. I had a family and was working a FT job. Those few hours I had to spend each week were precious and I wanted to spend them DOING not LEARNING. Real estate investing is hard. Anyone who says differently is either lying or hasn't done a deal. Having someone to teach you, answer questions, or provide info that saves you from making mistakes is not foolish, in fact, it is a good business decision. You can certainly do it on you own, but I'm not convinced it is "cheaper." The caveat is that you need to be in business. If you don't take action, then the time you spent on BP and the money you paid for the seminars is absolutely wasted.

The problem is that often times those seminars are a sales platform to get you to buy into something much more expensive in order to get information that is being purposefully withheld. I have no issue with people trying to make money by selling info to others, but at the same time the expectation exists that by paying for it, that info better be pretty good. Often times it isn't. I say this as someone who has been to some of those very seminars. In hind sight, the info provided was nothing that was really new or ground breaking. Caveat emptor!

I agree. :) I have no issue at all with paying for good information, problem is, most that is paid for isn't that good. I've had my brain picked for decades for nothing and I think I was very well paid for advice at times in the past. I certainly can't fault anyone being paid to teach or advise, so long as they are qualified to give such advice or teach a subject. The problem is, IMO, there are no set standards for qualification. Anyone with enough of an ego can declare themselves an expert or get a few others to refer to them as experts. The old adage of those who can't do teach is alive and well in RE. As to BP, I'm not sure there could be very much, if anything, that could be explained in a seminar that can't be explained on BP. If it hasn't been addressed, it probably hasn't been asked. You'd have to ask the question in a seminar as well. So, I don't think it's that information is so unique in a seminar or class but that communicating ideas is much easier I can cover more material in a class than typing my tail off in forums. I'll say too that's it's really too bad that I as well as others have to spend so much time addressing bad information planted by the gurus or others here rather than being able to venture off into more detailed subject matter. In a seminar or class, I can control that environment and stay on topic. I spent thousands on my degrees, the only money I ever spent on RE classes was for my license and were due to some diddly class that had to be selected as continued education having a broker/agent license, otherwise I never spent a dime on RE educational materials. I certainly paid attorneys to learn things. :)

I have been reading this thread with great interest as I see great value in this discussion. As a sponsor of two REI clubs with a “no sales” policy, I am often asked if I could recommend any seminars or Guru’s that might provide them with an accelerated learning curve. After I tell them about biggerpockets, I usually tell them to talk to other investors, that are actually doing deals, and ask the same question. I have talked to many wantabe investors that talk the talk, but have not done a deal yet. Until an investor does a deal based on knowledge gained by some program or seminar, they are merely justifying their expenditure. Another thing I tell newbes is to find someone that is doing what you want to do and to find a way to be of assistance to them. Don’t expect a busy investor to stop what they are doing and mentor you. Ask what you can do for them. I agree that most of the participants in most of the seminars out there, will never do anything. They will spend their 5, 10, 20, even 50k and spend the rest of their lives trying to pay it off. The less than 1% that has a strong enough “why” and continues to get educated will be the ones to succeed. Listening to the BP podcasts, the resounding answer to the last question, about why some succeed and others do not, is persistence. I am a product of a guru, that puts on expensive seminars, upsells, and brings in other to try to get you to the back of the room. I have also learned a lot from him and have become good friends with many of the people that traveled in his circle. I am successful, but nowhere near where I want to be. I feel that I am part of that 1% that persisted and did not disappear over the years. I guess what I am trying to say is, spending 50k does not guarantee success, nor does spending hours on BP. I am all for learning from someone else’s mistakes and triumphs. Everyone needs a mentor to speed up the process. That mentor could be BP, a guru, books in the library, or a personal coach. As @Joe Fairless mentioned they need to be ready to learn, and I truly believe that they must have a strong “why”. Why am I spending hours and hours on real estate when I would rather be spending time: with my kids, with my spouse, skiing, watching football, ………………. Real estate is not a get rich quick process, but you can gain wealth over time.

This is a great thread and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just passionate responses about personal belief. I still credit Carlton Sheets for teaching me the ins and outs about real estate back when I purchased his program. He was one of the original gurus...they just called 'em something different back in the day and sold things in a different way. I go to a lot of events that people in this thread would say are guru events. I have seen it all at these events from the good all the way to the really bad. And after having spent a lot of time sometimes as a participant, sometimes as a speaker and sometimes just as an observer, it all boils down to a few things for me. 1. You can get a lot of education and know-how for free. it is everywhere around us and more attainable than at any point in history and tomorrow it will be EVEN MORE attainable. 2. The people who succeed when they purchase products or programs or coaching are going to succeed anyway. What they are paying for ultimately is a shortening of the learning curve. 3. What galls most who are down on the gurus and events and everything else is that some people do not know how to say no and too often the gurus or people selling don't turn them away. It is a free-will society and with free-will some people will spend...freely. That is hard for some observers to take. It just does not sit right, but it happens everyday in everyday situations like car buying, insurance buying, grocery buying, clothes buying, etc..... If people are willing to pay for it, it will be offered and they will be asked if they would like some more. Does not make it right, it is just reality. Lastly, I do believe in coaching and I personally use coaches. I use one for when I work out at the gym. I use one for discussing financial and estate planning topics. I use one for nutrition and over-all health. I gladly people who are smarting than me to help me make good decisions and hold me accountable. They can charge me as many dollars as they like...it is up to me to say no if I decide it is not worth it. SOME, certainly not all, but some of the companies and individuals that I know who would be classified as gurus in this thread are doing nothing more than the same that the gym trainer, nutrition and financial advisers are doing.

I don't think it needs to be free. There is a big difference in value between a day seminar on tax strategies and entities by an RE attorney for $150, and someone offering a seminar with upsell for $600. The attorney is selling the info advertised for the price advertised, he has no book to sell, or if he does it's included in the price of the course. The seminar educator is usually selling motivation with tidbits. The tidbits can be interesting. I'll sit through anybody's free seminar that ends with a sales pitch for materials or mentoring or whatever. But I'm not going to pay to be sold to. You'll hear endlessly that the cost of a $3500 weekend or a $6K mentoring program will be recovered on the first deal. Many RE educators are first and foremost marketing experts. Keep in mind they need you to believe that their fees are just a drop in the bucket of your potential earnings. So their fees can really be anything, since your potential earnings can be anything. :) The other issue is how general a lot of the info will be. Lease options in CA aren't Lease Options in TX. There are laws in place in both states that are totally different that you're probably not going to learn from a national RE educator. Check out carefully what you get for the fee you pay, and check with others who've attended before and find out what they think they got. Know yourself well enough to know whether you need motivation or strategies.

@Wendell De Guzman that's all fine, but "systems" do not make you money, being able to encounter any type of situation, any type of property, in any location in your market and being able to devise your own "system" to solve problems, bring properties to a higher and best use, to fill and satisfy a need, is what makes you money. Not all RE provides an opportunity to make money off of it immediately or even in the near future, being able to identify properties that can makes you money. While you may follow a "system" and you can make money when you get use to that "system" but I can assure you that you are leaving more money on the table than you're making by walking past all the other opportunities that don't fit in that "system". :) A good investor can design a deal, they solve problems, not just property issues but social issues, financial issues, tax issues, regulatory issues and legal issues. Too many folks try to get into RE thinking they are walking into a store and picking up a box of RE strategies. Just go buy it, take it home, open it up, read the instructions then plug it in and tomorrow someone will hand you money. They buy a product to use, like buying a hammer that will make them a craftsman. It's pitiful, just pitiful to hear newbies, especially young people trying to start out to make a living in this world, much less getting wealthy, and referring to guru crap or some technique or system as an education. I've never met a wealthy man who only used a shovel to make money. Even a prospector knows the lay of the land and what to look for and carries other tools in his bag. The reason J. Scott is successful is because he has an education, he understands the basics of RE, he knows the types of deeds and interests that are conveyed, he can value a property, he understands his market and provides a product that fills the needs in demand. He knows the basics very well and applies those fundamentals in what he does. He complies with laws I'm sure and he can deal with people. He can solve problems that arise or knows how to get them solved. I've said it a hundred times, learn the basics of real estate, the flow of a transaction, from putting a for sale sign up to getting your check at closing. Every detail, every function, how other support people provide what they do to make that happen. Know your local customs and the laws that apply to you and your property in buying, selling or holding rentals. Understand what Realtors can and can not do. Learning this stuff in a RE school qualifies as an education. Then you can go to all the seminars, boot camps, buy tapes and whatever the RE pushers have for that day. Difference is, you'll likely avoid the scammers and dumb twits because you know the basics, what can and can't be done and how things are suppose to be done and you can then say.....Ha, that's a bunch of junk or you can say.....that sounds worthwhile, that's a valid strategy. Drug dealers on the corner only sell to those willing to buy their junk who have expectations without really knowing what they are buying. :)

Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Ellis San Jose

Specialist · Westlake Village, CA · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 781 votes

12y

"Price is only an issue in the absence of value."

If there were a price vs. value chart for education. I suspect the results would be all over the board. After spending a great deal of time and money on my formal & practical education, learning what works, & what doesn't work for me, in my market and in what cycle, costs me money & time.

It is flawed logic to think that education that is "Free" is better or "under $500" is ideal, or even that because you spend big bucks with an "expert", it will buy you a higher level success faster. The answer of course is the dreaded... "it depends".

What is the quality of the material presented and can it be implemented by you?(If you were taught how to acquire multiple distressed commercial properties to then syndicate into a REIT, do you have the ability & the resources to execute?) This is why the "No-money, No credit needed" sales slogan is so popular, because it doesn't exclude very many people, including possible suckers with a credit card & a dream. ( The slogan should actually be "No money, No credit, & No common sense required)

Does it give the student any competitive advantage? (If 300 other people implement the same strategy in your market at the same time and are going after the same target are there enough to opportunities to sustain your business?)

What is the market timeliness & effectiveness of the strategy(ies) taught. (Learning how to buy sfr REO's today, after inventory has dried up, may not be the right timing for a primary strategy, at least in my market)

What are the other alternatives for gaining the same knowledge? What is the opportunity cost of each choice? (If it will take you 3+ years to cobble together & refine the necessary knowledge by getting it for free, would it be worth to you to pay $X to cut the learning curve into 1/2 the time?) Here again it depends on the level of quality & value.

The biggest flaw I see is not the guru, nor price, nor material. The biggest flaw is human nature. The search for the easy money, the habit of quitting too early because it got "difficult" or they got scared. Never getting off square one because they are so paralyzed with fear of failure or sometimes shockingly... fear of success.

The biggest determining factor is the student. The willingness to taking a risk and actually doing a deal, knowing that you will never know everything there is know or how it will turn out for sure.

I don't mean to be callous or judgmental, I do know what that is like. I was one of those fearful, overly analytical, & paralyzed people in the past. Hesitating & justifying the need for just "one more class". Thankfully I had ( & still do have) supportive people around me who would "swat my head with a rolled up newspaper" (figuratively speaking) & got me out of that destructive cycle.

Thankfully, over the years I have my short list of tried & true favorites. In the process I have also developed a keen B.S. detector, separating the slick hucksters from the real deal.

2 Reply

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jackie Lange:

If these guys have so much time to post on forums, when do they ever have time to DO DEALS?

Wait...is it not possible to do deals while still having lots of free time to do other stuff?!?! I thought it was you who stops by every once in a while bragging about how you spend most of your time relaxing on a beach out of the country while still doing several deals per year?

Your statement above now makes me wonder if that couldn't possibly be true...

Btw, I can certainly understand how this forum and those who regularly contribute to it can be considered "bad for business" when it comes to those who make their living taking advantage of eager wannabe investors...if I was a typical real estate guru who overcharged for my educational materials, I certainly wouldn't like this place.

And, as it should be, I'm sure the reputable coaches and real estate teachers aren't at all threatened by us, because they are offering great information that's worth every penny they charge. In fact not only are they not threatened by us, but many of them are the very same frequent posters that you seem to have an issue with.

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4 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:

@J Scott - Your argument is not wrong, I just think it is flawed a little...maybe.

Chris -

But, if a real estate coach is truly world class (i.e., his coaching warrants hundreds or thousands of dollars per hour), then I would argue that the highest and best of his time is doing real estate deals, not teaching.

Which begs the question -- if someone can make more money doing one thing, why is he doing something else?

Well, one of you gentlemen has a brother that charges mega bucks for coaching/mentoring. I'm assuming a brother might know a little about the business from the inside. What say you? Is the coaching more profitable than the deal making in his case?

0 Reply

Karen MargraveBusiness Member

Moderator

Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

12y

@Jackie Lange " It still amazes me that people on forums trust someone just because they have more posts than anyone else."

People don't trust someone solely based on the number of posts one has, they trust them becuase they have consistently given good advice, and become trustworthy. When someone gives bad advice, whether new or experienced, they are held accountable. However; when at a seminar, conference, etc. there's nobody there to hold the speaker accountable, and what they say is left to stand., therefore; hungry new investors can be easily deceived.

As I mentioned before, I have no problem with someone that is an expert in a specific area holding a seminar, etc. to teach others, however; there's no one size fits all when it comes to real estate investing, rehabs, etc. Every area of the country is different.

5 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Ellis San Jose:

Does it give the student any competitive advantage? (If 300 other people implement the same strategy in your market at the same time and are going after the same target are there enough to opportunities to sustain your business?)

Back in the day I never worried about this kind of competition. Seminar trainees in my farms were a non-issue, and there were A LOT of them. I believed 1% would make a real attempt, and 99% of the 1% would be gone in 3-6 months.

The success rates may not have changed, but their presence feels like 10 fold what it used to be. A lot of Boomer's kids have backing (post their collection education) for training, mentoring and marketing costs. They spend way more than I spend. The number of parents that will give their kids 10K, 25K, 75K to break into RE is astounding. I know some of these parents. They'll most likely lose the money, but they think it's a worthy cause.

None of it should make any difference, but the saturation of marketing in my farms is causing serious consumer irritation and fatigue. Sellers that call me now sometimes have 15 letters in front of them. Hopefully I can do something the newbies can't but now it takes longer to build trust with sellers and separate myself from the masses. And then there's the issue of them overpaying, which happens in any market with too many newbies with cash.

0 Reply

Chris K.Pro Member

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jackie Lange:

It still amazes me that people on forums trust someone just because they have more posts than anyone else. Many would rather rely on that information than attend a 2 or 3 day $500 seminar taught by someone with 20 or more years of "in the trenches" experience.

It can go both ways though. Nothing guarantees that the person charging for their knowledge is any more knowledgable than a person who doesn't. There are plenty of people here who have 20-30 years "in the trenches" and just enjoy reading and participating in discussions here. It would be foolish to trust anyone strictly on their post count just as it would be foolish to trust just because they're charging for their knowledge.

1 Reply

Account Closed

Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes

12y

No matter what anyone said the new comers will pay what every snake-oil salesman charging just to get in the business.

Joe Gore

1 Reply

Jackie Lange

Investor · Central America, Panama · Member since 2010 · 423 posts · 293 votes

12y

JScott

It's not bragging. I do live in Central America, not on the beach, in the mountains.

0 Reply

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jackie Lange:

JScott

It's not bragging. I do live in Central America, not on the beach, in the mountains.

But wait, you implied above that it takes a lot of time to do deals. Your exact words were:

"If these guys have so much time to post on forums, when do they ever have time to DO DEALS?"

Do you truly believe that being a successful investor requires people to dedicate much of their time? If so, do you spend most of your time doing deals?

Or do you not really believe that?

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1 Reply

Jackie Lange

Investor · Central America, Panama · Member since 2010 · 423 posts · 293 votes

12y

jscott

It depends on your objectives. If your objective is to be financially independent and free within 5 years with enough cash and cash flow to more than support your lifestyle for the rest of our life and live anywhere you want... then YES, you will be working a LOT those 5 years. You'll probably work as much or more than you would if you have a J.O.B

That is the route I took.

I rarely do deals anymore. In 2013, I did 6.

If you're in no hurry to get to financial freedom, and don't mind working for the rest of your life, and you don't focus on creating cash flow ...then you can take plenty of time off to post on the forums.

Or put another way, if you focus a lot of time posting in forums and do not make financial freedom and creating cash flow a priority, then you will be doing deals for a long long long time.

Success may eventually happen, but it will take a lot longer if you spend so much time on the forums and lose sight of your objectives.

There are always trade-offs in life.

“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.Dream. Discover.” – Mark Twain

1 Reply

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jackie Lange:

Or put another way, if you focus a lot of time posting in forums and do not make financial freedom and creating cash flow a priority, then you will be doing deals for a long long long time.

Interesting...it never occurred to me that I had to choose between posting on BiggerPockets and achieving financial freedom.

I guess that means I'm either achieving the impossible...or once again, you're incorrect... :-)

But again, I can understand how someone who relies on selling educational material as the basis of their income is threatened by the fact that others give information away for free...in fact, there are plenty of those people who stop in here every few months to throw out a few anecdotes just to try to keep themselves relevant and top-of-mind...

Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)

2 Reply

Rick H.

Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

12y

I've spent a lot of money on real estate education and I've made an awful lot if money. There's no question that there's a lot of dream merchants out there. I'm no different than many (if not most) and I've been taken, too.

In my early years, I took a Charlie Shuban one day seminar on buying foreclosures from defaulted homeowners then a one-on-one course taught by none other than commodities guru, Ken Roberts (TWMPMM). That was 1978. Money well spent.

Then a bunch of forgettable guys (and gals) from the 1980's wasted my time and certainly my money. I mostly lost trust in these clowns. I avoided Dave Del Dotto and Tom Vu because, hey, my BS detector was fully deflected in the Orange/Red and vibrating like an old "electric football" game board.

John Beck has been the best. I was disappointed to see him obsess on the tax lien and sale stuff (Free and Clear) but I've I've made more money from ideas that he generated than anyone else.

After John, I pretty much gave up on most of the trainers. I took Jim Banks' Probate Course and ended up teaching it. That was $7,000 I didn't need to spend. Took an expensive probate class from George Miller and discovered things about the training business I almost wish I never knew. Learned a few good plays but he was not to be trust with other people's money.

I met Ward Hanigan, took some of his training, learned a lot, and we remain good personal friends to this day. I met Jack Miller (no relation to George, or at least none acknowledged) and really enjoyed Jack's seminars. I have a few movie star acquaintances but the day Jack called me was much more memorable. And Jack knew what made a good program: interesting content, funny stories and great fellowship.

Can I learn everything I need on BP? Maybe, but I seriously doubt it. Can you learn a lot? Of course. If it's new to you, it's new. Just how do you separate the BS artists from the real deal? For starters, most of the really good trainers only out a few events on per year and you can plan well in advance.

That still may not prove reliable, so talk to others that have attended programs and ask how they benefitted and if they applied what they learned. If they haven't taken any action, then you know that your friends were in the 80% of people who spend money on training but don't do deals. Then it's time to look at the company you keep.

1 Reply

Jackie Lange

Investor · Central America, Panama · Member since 2010 · 423 posts · 293 votes

12y

J

we all have 24 hours in the day. You can spend it focusing on your objective of financial independence or you can spend it reading and posting on forums.

Last I heard, you still have to do deals to make a living. That's not financial independence.

You're the one who is incorrect.. again.

Just in case you needed the definition..

Financial independence is used to describe the state of having sufficient personal wealth to live, without having to work. For financially independent people, their assets generate income that is greater than their expenses.

0 Reply

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jackie Lange:

we all have 24 hours in the day. You can spend it focusing on your objective of financial independence or you can spend it reading and posting on forums.

Last I heard, you still have to do deals to make a living. That's not financial independence.

I appreciate that you are so obsessed with me that you've been asking around (it's sad, but kinda cool, actually). For reference, my wife and I put in our 100 hour weeks in the tech industry, long before we ever got into real estate. Even if we never do another real estate deal, it's safe to say that we'll be okay... :-)

As for YOUR financial independence, my guess is that if you didn't need to sell some books, you wouldn't pop in here every few months to remind us how much you don't need to be here... :-)

Podcast Guest on Show The Truth About Real Estate Investing in 2024 (What Investors NEED to Know)

1 Reply

Chris K.Pro Member

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jackie Lange:

J
we all have 24 hours in the day. You can spend it focusing on your objective of financial independence or you can spend it reading and posting on forums.

Lol, you cannot be serious. You're completely over exaggerating this whole "posting in forums" argument. There is more to life than the two things you mentioned.For some reading this forum IS focusing on their objective of financial independence so your either/or scenario doesn't apply.

Have you considered that there are people here who've already achieved financial independence and now they're just here to help others who are hungry for success like they were at one point? Kind of the same thing you're claiming except they don't charge people money for their knowledge.

0 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@Rick H.

Rick Dave Del Dotto was my neighbor in the Napa valley I lived right across the street from his winery, I enjoyed many a late afternoon drinking his wine and listening to his stories of the day.. He made a lot of money selling his info. Its no secret the best pitch men make far more money than anyone trying to do deals Unless they are big time developers builders own a HML that has maybe 500 mil to lend.. those are big money guys.. I was at one of Armando's deals in Cerritos last summer... 400 people probably at least 200 buying units at 30 to 40k a pop.. do the math.. True he rented a huge room and 3 smaller conference rooms for 4 full days and had 8 or 9 bus's that went out daily to show people great looking houses out in San berdo But then there are the guys working the audience reminded me of a high energy auction in a way with guys working the room pointing out the next bidders.. But they did cover a lot of detailed subjects about finding and rehabbing houses. I was there 3 of the 4 days talked with many students and like has been mentioned most of them were really diggin it and thinking they got value.. Some I talked to were back as guest and if they were telling the truth were doing well flipping homes.

It was the same event that Forbes reporter was at and wrote the article in Forbes about Armondo making 50 million last year. He might very well have grossed 50 mil but we all know it cost probably 10k per buying unit in over head and TV and Radio to put their butts in the seats...

I personally did a little mini Guru back in 2004 when I sold a bunch of Duplex's in Vancouver WA.. I rented a room in San Jose paid for radio and print.. I think it cost me 50k for the night all in.. But we sold the whole project out 125 duplex's and I was just making a 6% brokerage fee but it was a great return on my 50k But if we had laid an egg it would have been painful.. That was fun. My wife was the listing agent at the time I got up and played Guru and made the presentation. first time I had spoke in front of 300 people.

I like many go both ways on this I have been financing ARmondo's turn key partners from about the beginning of his rise.. And really have had no issues with his students as my borrower clients. Had far more issues with Mid west turn key guys selling C properties Quite Frankly...

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@J Scott Being new here 1 week now I am not sure what Jackie has posted in the past.. But I have met Jackie many times and she is a nice lady and pretty easy going.. Her and I have debated her techniques.. My opinion they only work in very select markets and would not work ( especially on the West Coast).. So we agree to disagree... I think the main issue I see here on BP is the divide between the do it yourselfer and the ones that are trying to provide a "turn key product" which in my opinion and in my experience which is quite deep in the space.. Turn key is anything but a passive investment.. Rare is the rental that goes smoothly and the only thing turn key is the wholesaler and rehabber getting the house ready for a tenant then the work starts and the passive arm chair investor has their work cut out for them the rest of the life cycle of the investment.. They must manage the managers, and that is a tough job in many cases.. I mean if BP is all about doing it yourself.. Then I guess to take that to the base level where does an investor draw the line.. Getting help buying the house.. IE maybe a foreclosure buying service that will bid for you. I have seen a bunch of them in Atlanta when I was buying at court house steps Vegas were I bought and Phx. I knew these 20 something's with 1 million bucks in cashiers checks weren't spending their own dough... Then do you hire a GC or are you going to sub it all out yourself and save that mark up.. Then once the house is done you run your own ad put your own tenant in there and manage it yourself. I guess that true wholesale.. So at the end of the day there is profit all along the way.. I think its up to the investor to decide if they can afford to spend the time saving money.. Some pay way to much for convenience of the deal as is well publicized especially in the day when Californians who could not believe they could buy a whole house for 50k.. this is the same mentality of the Aussies heck their transfer tax in AU is as much as these houses in many cases and they rationalize their purchases accordingly...

So for this site I think it provides both sides of the equation and the reader lurker can decided to order off the menu either ala carte or the full meal with white linens and full service

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Joe Fairless

Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

12y

@Matt B. - my approach is similar to yours. There are some seminars I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole but others that I have paid to attend and it was worth it. I went to a Rich Dad, Poor Dad 3-day event (I have NO affiliation) and thought it was worth the $300 or so I paid (it's been a long time since I went so don't remember the exact price). I didn't do the crazy expensive up-sell for more specific courses. But then I recommended the 3-day seminar to a couple friends and they said they didn't like it. They didn't have properties and said what they learned was the same stuff they've read in books, etc.

Here's my overall thought on it, it depends on where you are as an investor and what the seminar or mentor is offering.

For example, I took the 3-day seminar on real estate investing when I needed a good overview of the industry and how to find other ways to invest and make money. I walked in feeling pretty good about myself because I had one investment property at the time. Then, the first thing they said is you won't achieve big-time wealth by buying single family homes. They said I needed to do multi-family or mobile home trailer parks. That changed my life and I immediately went out and learned apt investing. So, looking back on that $300 seminar, it was worth its weight in gold.

For the record, I personally now believe you can achieve big-time wealth in most real estate approaches including, of course, single family homes.

I've had two paid mentors at very specific times in my real estate career. My first was after I had a couple homes and was looking to take it to the next level. I learned what I needed to learn for 6 months then we went our separate ways. Well worth it. Then I continued to practice what I was taught and when I wanted to get into something new (i.e. buying apts and syndicating deals) I decided I needed a new mentor who could teach me. It's been the best educational investment of my life. But, again, only because I was ready for it and it filled my knowledge gap.

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J ScottPro Member

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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Joe Fairless:

I've had two paid mentors at very specific times in my real estate career. My first was after I had a couple homes and was looking to take it to the next level. I learned what I needed to learn for 6 months then we went our separate ways. Well worth it. Then I continued to practice what I was taught and when I wanted to get into something new (i.e. buying apts and syndicating deals) I decided I needed a new mentor who could teach me. It's been the best educational investment of my life. But, again, only because I was ready for it and it filled my knowledge gap.

In my opinion, this is the perfect way to use a coach/mentor -- you've achieved a particular level of success, you have some specific goals that you want to accomplish next, and you find someone whose experience and knowledge level is commensurate with your particular goals. Once you've exhausted the benefit of that particular coach/mentor (which could be days, months, years or even decades), you move on.

In fact, you put it best with, "...I was ready for it and it filled my knowledge gap."

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Dion DePaoliPro Member

Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

12y

For those who have paid for a mentor or coach, how did you or would you suggest a newbie evaluate a potential coach or mentor. I think perhaps, at least for me, that is what bugs me most. A self proclaimed expert who knows little and is even wrong in some cases. How does a noob, guard against the blind leading the blind?

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@Dion DePaoli

Any of you think about simply getting a Real Estate license and working part time.. You would learn all you need to know to engage in most of what your trying to do.. And if you popped some deals along the way it could be a paid apprentice ship and or get on a successful Agents team and learn the ropes .. go to work for a commercial brokerage that specializes in Multi..If you want a carrier in RE go into the field.. Plenty of Part timers start this way then become full time..

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Dion DePaoliPro Member

Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Dion DePaoli
Any of you think about simply getting a Real Estate license and working part time.. You would learn all you need to know to engage in most of what your trying to do.. And if you popped some deals along the way it could be a paid apprentice ship and or get on a successful Agents team and learn the ropes .. go to work for a commercial brokerage that specializes in Multi..If you want a carrier in RE go into the field.. Plenty of Part timers start this way then become full time..

Thanks Jay!

I guess, the concept there is that the course designed to teach a person to achieve license is aligned with teaching someone to be a prudent RE Investor. I am going to go ahead and disagree with that idea under that premise. Certainly some level of education is better than none, etc. However, the RE agent course doesn't teach ownership or management techniques. Nor does a MLB course teach how to invest in mortgages.

I do agree, that learning in a DIY fashion with an experienced teacher is worth it's weight in gold. That has been the more recent theme of the posts. So it still begs the question, how does a newbie judge who would be a good teacher and who would not be?

I think it is easier as your knowledge and skill progresses to judge these merits, but that is for the experienced or semi-experienced. What about the newbie? Even if it is choose a company to mentor you or choose a specific coach, how would a noob filter the wheat from the chaff?

On a side topic, the fact that the license coursed was suggested in this setting is an example of the infinite supply of opinions which may or may not be on point that a newbie must filter through. Curious (not picking, just conversting) Jay have you ever taken a license course for real estate? Which license and do you feel it prepared you to be an investor?

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Any of you think about simply getting a Real Estate license and working part time.. You would learn all you need to know to engage in most of what your trying to do.. And if you popped some deals along the way it could be a paid apprentice ship and or get on a successful Agents team and learn the ropes .. go to work for a commercial brokerage that specializes in Multi..If you want a carrier in RE go into the field.. Plenty of Part timers start this way then become full time..

Great point. We learned more doing our first deal beginning to end than we could have from any books or seminars. We got licensed after our third deal, just to give us more control over the business -- that provided a completely new insight into the industry, and just getting licensed (and going through the process) made us better investors.

Plus, as you said, it gives you the opportunity to meet potential mentors, partners and colleagues...

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J ScottPro Member

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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

However, the RE agent course doesn't teach ownership or management techniques. Nor does a MLB course teach how to invest in mortgages.

The license course -- in my opinion -- was useless. What I did find useful was actually affiliating with a broker, making offers and dealing with other agents. It gave me a perspective on the industry that you don't get if you just hire out your buying and selling.

Actually interacting with listing agents, buyer agents and buyers themselves gave us a perspective that shaped the way we built our business.

But again, the actual licensing process, course and testwork was ridiculously useless...

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Dion DePaoliPro Member

Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @J Scott:

Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

However, the RE agent course doesn't teach ownership or management techniques. Nor does a MLB course teach how to invest in mortgages.

The license course -- in my opinion -- was useless. What I did find useful was actually affiliating with a broker, making offers and dealing with other agents. It gave me a perspective on the industry that you don't get if you just hire out your buying and selling.

Actually interacting with listing agents, buyer agents and buyers themselves gave us a perspective that shaped the way we built our business.

But again, the actual licensing process, course and testwork was ridiculously useless...

Frankly, this is my experience as well. Man did I know the state statues, but not a damn thing about how to find a deal, put it together and close it. The contacts were good. I just told the same thing to one of our guys getting his license...'work the class, just pass the test, but work the class'.

I would even go so far as to say, holy cow...if I knew then, what I know now. I certainly missed out on some opportunities that were right in front of me that I couldn't see. Hindsight is measured in years, I suppose.

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Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

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