Why is everyone against paying for a seminar?

Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes

Please read my post before answering willy nilly, but I was wondering why is everyone here so against paying for real estate educational information?

I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there.

To start, it seems when anyone asks about a seminar or person promoting one, the default answer is "you can find everything you need to know by reading it here." I will say this is probably the best site on the internet today for this type of information, hands down. But everything you need to know, not remotely possible.

The second thing, is that you should learn everything for free. Why shouldn't people get paid for providing useful information? The reason all of us are here is because we are looking to make money in this business. Then why wouldn't we want others to get paid, if they could help us make money? Bigger Pockets itself has paid memberships(which I gladly pay every month), not to mention ads. They need to keep the lights on and deserve to make something for doing it.

I will say there are quite a few people here that do take time to post useful information and are not generally looking for anything in return. Some do it as a form of networking and are looking for something out of it. A minority have already made something and are just looking to give back, with no need of return at all. Still I don't fathom either renting a conference room and taking 3 days of their time to share all that they know for free.

I am not pushing any guru, nor do I have a seminar to sell. I just would like to know why capitalistic entrepreneurs, such as ourselves, think educational information to advance our business and put money in our pocket, must only be free. Any thoughts?

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

I have no issue with paying for information...here's what I have issues with:

- Paying more than the information is worth

- Someone giving me information who isn't qualified to give me information

- Someone who is interested in giving me just enough information to coax me into giving them more money for more information

- Someone who will happily give me information in return for a fee, and then on top of that require me to give them a percentage of my profits in addition

- Getting information that is outdated and ultimately causes me to spend MORE time learning than if I hadn't gotten the information

- Someone who will take money from a student who clearly doesn't have the ability, intelligence, drive and/or resources to be successful

I've done the math, and based on my numbers, a great real estate investor can make a lot more money than a great educator who is charging reasonable fees for the education. So, if someone is making a living purely as an educator, I have to assume at least one of the following is true:

1. The education costs more than it's worth;

2. The educator isn't very good at real estate investing;

3. The educator isn't doing it for the money.

If it's #3, great...good luck finding that person, though.

The rest of the time it's #1 or #2.

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Susan Gillespie
Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2012 · 128 posts · 56 votes
12y
Hi Matt, I'm not against paying for quality seminars or education, but in real estate investing, I don't see much quality.

Many free seminars are used for marketing versus education. Many paid seminars are used to recruit students to buy even more expensive materials and classes that enrich a specific individual or guru.

I've attended two paid seminars on real estate. One was a Kaplan course and the other a community ed course on multi-family investing many years ago. I still keep in contact with both instructors - they're smart, knowledgeable, and in my opinion, do it because they enjoy teaching, not because it's a big money maker. Good seminars have learning objectives, quality content and qualified presenters.

Real estate investing has a shady, seedy side. That's due in part to no professional standards, no governing body, no licensure or accreditation, etc. Anyone can claim to be a real estate investor without proof of education, qualification or even experience.

You get what you pay for.
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Martin Zawarski
Contractor · Easton, PA · Member since 2013 · 152 posts · 58 votes
12y
I have taken two tickler seminars, both by the " big boys" ARmondo and Than. Both were helpful and helped me decide to enter into this business. Did I sign up for the next upswell---no! Did I learn something. ---- yes. I thought they brought value, but I knew enough not to not take their upswell seminar. I am however learning a ton here and will continue to learn.
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John Moore
House Flipper · East Stroudsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 205 votes
12y
I believe part of the problem is one size doesn'f fit all. There are so many variations that a seminar would be difficult to please a significant number of people. As with continued education requirements for maintaining a real estate license, most of the subject matter is not relevant for those outside of general real estate. Having paid for "Sales" seminars that I felt were quite worthwhile because the approach was somewhat universal, I don't believe that applies to the many specialties that we are involved in. I'm a rehabber who flips, there are buy and hold types, wholesalers, turn key, spec home builders, people who stage, people who don't, multi family and commercial and the list goes on. I don't believe that due to the variations most who attended a seminar would have unsatisfied expectations. Food for thought.
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Chris K.Pro Member
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Matt B.:

I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there.

Why would you want to exclude these people? I think that's one of the biggest reasons that people are skeptical of paid "seminars". I have no problem paying people for their knowledge but I want to know that it's worth it before I start shelling out money. I don't want to pay money just to hear these people tell me information that I already know or can find for free.

Also most of these seminars seem to be Bigtimers who travel all over to teach. We all know that RE is different in every city/county/state. What made them millionaires in Florida may not work for me here in Baltimore. I feel like i'm better suited coming here asking a question and having multiple people with specific knowledge/experience of my market answer. Or if I needed some hands on assistance for something I wasn't sure of I'd be much more comfortable calling up a Ned Carey or someone local with experience.

So i have nothing against paying for information but I need to know the person has the knowledge that i'm looking for before I'm willing to pay for something.
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Carlos Flores
Commercial Real Estate Lender / Syndicator · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 888 posts · 309 votes
12y
I think I paid $90 for some tapes back in the 80's then never paid again except for REIA entry fee, REI Expo tickets, and BP Pro account. Recently, however, I signed up for personal mentoring with a local MF expert. This guy knows his stuff. He started buying apartments 11 years ago, has owned over 1200 doors, and still owns 100's of doors today. There are three levels - a program for passives to become sophisticated MF investors, a program with webinars and other materials without personal mentoring, and a program where you get everything in the previous level plus personal mentoring. No breadcrumbs leading to the next super secret wham bam package, no sharing of profits, etc. BTW, I am not selling this guy, I am only trying to tell people why I signed up.

I want to syndicate deals but don't have a proven track record acquiring and managing 100+ unit multifamily assets. What I found most appealing was someone to walk me through the whole process and stick with me after acquisition (accelerating my learning curve) and the instant credibility his program gave me with vetted underwriters, property management companies, top commercial multifamily brokers, and most importantly passive investors.

Investors that know this "anti-guru" have no problem offering (yes, offering) to invest in my deals. I just started this particular part of the process. Accredited and sophisticated investors are already offering to put up $50k, $100k and more in my deals because I am one of his students. Of course, I hope they like something more about me than that ... but I met these investors by being in his program. I saw he was creating a pipeline of potential investors, and it was one of the primary reasons I signed up.

I am one of those that said you can get everything without paying a guru to get it. Several of my posts on BP will attest to that very fact. Seems there is a time for everything, even paying someone to help get what you want.

He has a free 2-day MF seminar coming up next month that I considered posting about on BP, but was hesitant to do so given the overwhelming negativity against gurus of any kind on this site.
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William F.
Real Estate Investor · Beverly Hills, CA · Member since 2014 · 7 posts · 1 vote
12y
If you thought finding a good piece of dirt or property was hard to find...try finding people willing to pay for the seminar in the first place. The marketing of seminar is tough to begin with and then the audience has a skeptical eye even before they see the price of the seminar.

Most people will find a lot of information on the type of RE they are looking to work with. A shotgun seminar approach doesn't work anymore. And selling it is even harder.
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John Moore
House Flipper · East Stroudsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 205 votes
12y
I believe part of the problem is one size doesn'f fit all. There are so many variations that a seminar would be difficult to please a significant number of people. As with continued education requirements for maintaining a real estate license, most of the subject matter is not relevant for those outside of general real estate. Having paid for "Sales" seminars that I felt were quite worthwhile because the approach was somewhat universal, I don't believe that applies to the many specialties that we are involved in. I'm a rehabber who flips, there are buy and hold types, wholesalers, turn key, spec home builders, people who stage, people who don't, multi family and commercial and the list goes on. I don't believe that due to the variations most who attended a seminar would have unsatisfied expectations. Food for thought.
1 Reply
Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y
@Wendell De Guzman

that's all fine, but "systems" do not make you money, being able to encounter any type of situation, any type of property, in any location in your market and being able to devise your own "system" to solve problems, bring properties to a higher and best use, to fill and satisfy a need, is what makes you money.

Not all RE provides an opportunity to make money off of it immediately or even in the near future, being able to identify properties that can makes you money.

While you may follow a "system" and you can make money when you get use to that "system" but I can assure you that you are leaving more money on the table than you're making by walking past all the other opportunities that don't fit in that "system". :)

A good investor can design a deal, they solve problems, not just property issues but social issues, financial issues, tax issues, regulatory issues and legal issues.

Too many folks try to get into RE thinking they are walking into a store and picking up a box of RE strategies. Just go buy it, take it home, open it up, read the instructions then plug it in and tomorrow someone will hand you money. They buy a product to use, like buying a hammer that will make them a craftsman.

It's pitiful, just pitiful to hear newbies, especially young people trying to start out to make a living in this world, much less getting wealthy, and referring to guru crap or some technique or system as an education.

I've never met a wealthy man who only used a shovel to make money. Even a prospector knows the lay of the land and what to look for and carries other tools in his bag.

The reason J. Scott is successful is because he has an education, he understands the basics of RE, he knows the types of deeds and interests that are conveyed, he can value a property, he understands his market and provides a product that fills the needs in demand. He knows the basics very well and applies those fundamentals in what he does. He complies with laws I'm sure and he can deal with people. He can solve problems that arise or knows how to get them solved.

I've said it a hundred times, learn the basics of real estate, the flow of a transaction, from putting a for sale sign up to getting your check at closing. Every detail, every function, how other support people provide what they do to make that happen. Know your local customs and the laws that apply to you and your property in buying, selling or holding rentals. Understand what Realtors can and can not do. Learning this stuff in a RE school qualifies as an education.

Then you can go to all the seminars, boot camps, buy tapes and whatever the RE pushers have for that day. Difference is, you'll likely avoid the scammers and dumb twits because you know the basics, what can and can't be done and how things are suppose to be done and you can then say.....Ha, that's a bunch of junk or you can say.....that sounds worthwhile, that's a valid strategy.

Drug dealers on the corner only sell to those willing to buy their junk who have expectations without really knowing what they are buying. :)
5 Reply
Chanté Owens
Insurance Agent · AZ · Member since 2013 · 306 posts · 161 votes
12y
I think there is value to having information disseminated/presented in one concise format so that you don't have to "hunt" all over in various places. With that being said, as many people have stated, the information they are selling needs to be of value, and not just to "up sell" you to something else.

I'd gladly pay (and have paid for various trainings/seminars), because the information is: professionally organized, informative, niche specific and easily digestible with books and/or emails with links to the information that was discussed, as well as with ways to utilize the information received, because it's all for naught if you don't actually do something.
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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Carlos Flores:

Investors that know this "anti-guru" have no problem offering (yes, offering) to invest in my deals. I just started this particular part of the process. Accredited and sophisticated investors are already offering to put up $50k, $100k and more in my deals because I am one of his students. Of course, I hope they like something more about me than that ... but I met these investors by being in his program. I saw he was creating a pipeline of potential investors, and it was one of the primary reasons I signed up.

He has a free 2-day MF seminar coming up next month that I considered posting about on BP, but was hesitant to do so given the overwhelming negativity against gurus of any kind on this site.

Really, investors are handing you a hundred grand because you're a student of this guy? Why would anyone ever go to Harvard? If that's even close I'd have to think there's more to it, like being under the supervision of your Great Oz. No one with a hundred grand would hand anyone money based on where the where being instructed IMO. Just has to be more there.

The last paragraph, yes, that's an understatement.

Here is the issue with rich or successful investors teaching, what worked for them doesn't mean it works for someone else, that's the assumption. What works for you or I may not be doable by most. Markets are different. What was done in years past, by one person probably can't be duplicated by just anyone off the street, and that's usually the pitch. Trying to sell historic success is the fool's folly.

Take me for example, I probably know what the Great Oz does, that doesn't mean I can do it with the same results in my area. By the same token, I really doubt the Great Oz or others could do just what I did with the same or even similar results. Which is why you won't ever see or hear me pitching the mortgage or commercial lending business for the consumption of the masses. Nor would I ever tell anyone "if I can do it you can do it" while that may be very true with some or many, it certainly isn't true with all. :)
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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
This is a great thread and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just passionate responses about personal belief.

I still credit Carlton Sheets for teaching me the ins and outs about real estate back when I purchased his program. He was one of the original gurus...they just called 'em something different back in the day and sold things in a different way.

I go to a lot of events that people in this thread would say are guru events. I have seen it all at these events from the good all the way to the really bad. And after having spent a lot of time sometimes as a participant, sometimes as a speaker and sometimes just as an observer, it all boils down to a few things for me.

1. You can get a lot of education and know-how for free. it is everywhere around us and more attainable than at any point in history and tomorrow it will be EVEN MORE attainable.

2. The people who succeed when they purchase products or programs or coaching are going to succeed anyway. What they are paying for ultimately is a shortening of the learning curve.

3. What galls most who are down on the gurus and events and everything else is that some people do not know how to say no and too often the gurus or people selling don't turn them away.

It is a free-will society and with free-will some people will spend...freely. That is hard for some observers to take. It just does not sit right, but it happens everyday in everyday situations like car buying, insurance buying, grocery buying, clothes buying, etc.....

If people are willing to pay for it, it will be offered and they will be asked if they would like some more. Does not make it right, it is just reality.

Lastly, I do believe in coaching and I personally use coaches. I use one for when I work out at the gym. I use one for discussing financial and estate planning topics. I use one for nutrition and over-all health. I gladly people who are smarting than me to help me make good decisions and hold me accountable. They can charge me as many dollars as they like...it is up to me to say no if I decide it is not worth it. SOME, certainly not all, but some of the companies and individuals that I know who would be classified as gurus in this thread are doing nothing more than the same that the gym trainer, nutrition and financial advisers are doing.
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Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
Well, I skipped to the last page here. Bill, I like the posts above, so very true.

An idea that seems to be fleeting. If said guru simply prints money they are so good at working an asset class, why are they teaching classes to folks for peanuts instead of running a REIT or Investment Fund?

Putting $100 Million under management with a 1% Management Fee plus any Net Profit split will certainly be worth more in time and money than trying to hit just the $1.0 Million mark selling seminars at $10,000 a pop, let alone anything less.

Why wouldn't said investor who hands out $100k simply take the course themselves? After all, the course concept turns 'anyone' into an RE investor, right?

@Carlos Flores not picking on you, just the concepts in your post: "There are three levels - a program for passives to become sophisticated MF investors, a program with webinars and other materials without personal mentoring, and a program where you get everything in the previous level plus personal mentoring. No breadcrumbs leading to the next super secret wham bam package, no sharing of profits, etc."

Level 1 = passive investor to sophisticated investor??

Do you realize that makes zero sense? The sophistication of an investor doesn't change if their role is passive or active.

Level 2 = Webinar Support?

So, by the virtue of this level existing, it pre-suggests the material given in Level 1 is insufficient. That is, since the webinar support is needed to have a better grasp of the material it means the material in it's content or presentation has omissions or flaws.

Level 3 = The Coach/Mentor

So, the holy grail. What they really want to sell. A limited amount of time, their time, so you can ask questions from the material in Level 1, that you clearly didn't understand and from the webinar material in Level 2, that only created more questions than answers since Level 1 material was insufficient. They will allow you to pay them so they can tell you what they didn't explain well, or put into the first two levels in order to create some value for a Level 3 membership.

Just because you buy a hose and a fire extinguisher doesn't mean you are a firefighter. Just saying.
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Matt B.
OP
Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Chris K.:

Originally posted by @Matt B.:

I will preface to say that there are quite a few hucksters selling irrelevant or even wrong information to those willing to hand over their credit card. I myself have paid for plenty of that, but for the sake of this post lets disregard them, just as we would disregard all of the slum landlords or fraudulent real estate investors out there.

Why would you want to exclude these people? I think that's one of the biggest reasons that people are skeptical of paid "seminars". I have no problem paying people for their knowledge but I want to know that it's worth it before I start shelling out money. I don't want to pay money just to hear these people tell me information that I already know or can find for free.

I specifically chose to exclude those because that is the typical argument made here. Just read the majority of the posts. I still do not find that as a valid reason as to why information needs to be free. I would be willing to argue that I have paid more than most people on horrible seminars. I have also paid for very good ones.

I have bought real estate that I have lost money on and was a horrible deal. Does that mean every other property I get should be free?

Again, I agree with everyone that does not want to pay for bad information. I don't either. That just doesn't make for an argument that it needs to be free.
2 Reply
Thomas Mitchell
Wholesaler · East, TX · Member since 2012 · 88 posts · 61 votes
12y
I'm a product of a "guru" course. I sometimes wonder this myself. Some people would rather throw down some money for a weekend course than pour over thousands and thousands of posts on a website like this one. I won't name his name, but there is one guru that I really like out of Florida and I would go back to his events. We each choose our path in this game. Some of us choose the guru route. It worked for me.
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Eric Belgau
Insurance Agent · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 168 posts · 88 votes
12y
What strikes me about many of these programs - especially in Real Estate Investment, but really in any kind of investment and any kind of business - is that they focus much more on the outcomes than on the way you get there. They possess - or at least pitch - a formula that can generate that outcome.

I get that. Outcomes sell. But to whom? Most often, it's the people who have the drive and, in many cases, the startup capital, but who lack the comprehensive knowledge that will make them successful.

The problem with a formula is that it depends on a specific set of conditions, and when those conditions change the formula (and the business build on it) fail. I remember a 22-year-old day trader who lost over a million dollars in a few short hours, sweating in front of his laptop on the patio at a SoCal Starbucks when the tech market imploded in 2001. He'd been using a formula. He'd been making great money. The conditions changed, and his formula didn't work anymore.

Those who are starting out need patience and knowledge. They need to be taught about all the risks (something BP does well). Learning what to do usually less valuable than learning what not to do, and the formula can get in the way of getting down to the fundamentals.

There are loads of courses available out there - finance, accounting, business planning, sales, marketing and advertising, and on and on - through university extensions and online sources (like Coursera). They're taught by credentialed instructors. They deliver a value. They provide the foundation to run a business.

Any investment portfolio is a business. It has to behave like a business. To run mine effectively I feel that I need to possess the knowledge to plan, manage, market, analyze, and improve it. Would I pay for that? Yes, in a heartbeat, and I do. Would I pay for a formula? No.
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
SOME, certainly not all, but some of the companies and individuals that I know who would be classified as gurus in this thread are doing nothing more than the same that the gym trainer, nutrition and financial advisers are doing.

Absolutely agreed. But, the big difference is how the services are being charged for -- most financial planners, nutritionists and gym trainings will charge "per session" or "per month," not a flat $10K or $25K or $50K, where a large chunk of money is long gone prior to the purchaser having the ability to assess the value of the service.

If a real estate coach is confident that he can provide ongoing value, he should charge weekly/monthly fees, not large one-time fees. If the student continues to get value, he continues to pay the ongoing fees; if he feels he's not getting the value, he just doesn't pay the next month's fees.

People say that I'm anti-guru...let me tell you something, if someone came to me and said, "I met this real estate coach, and he wants to charge me $100/week (or $200/week or something else not outrageous) for coaching. No other upfront fees. No commitment. No upsell. What do you think?"

I'd be the first to say, "Go for it! The most you have to lose is a hundred or two hundred bucks."

But, I don't generally see gurus who charge like that...my guess is because they don't believe they can add continuous value that warrants their fee. Yet, this is exactly how the other service providers you mentioned tend to work. Why do you think that is?
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Matt B.
OP
Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
12y
Originally posted by Bill Gulley:

Actually Bill, I would be willing to pay to listen to someone like you speak for a couple of days even if it wasn't tailored to the masses :) I am guessing what you share here on a regular basis "for free" is just the tip of the iceberg as to what you actually know.

Granted there is no magic formula that the Great Oz can impart, but as a true capitalist I still think he should get paid. Just ask Dorothy.
1 Reply
Carlos Flores
Commercial Real Estate Lender / Syndicator · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 888 posts · 309 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

Originally posted by @Carlos Flores:
Investors that know this "anti-guru" have no problem offering (yes, offering) to invest in my deals. I just started this particular part of the process. Accredited and sophisticated investors are already offering to put up $50k, $100k and more in my deals because I am one of his students. Of course, I hope they like something more about me than that ... but I met these investors by being in his program. I saw he was creating a pipeline of potential investors, and it was one of the primary reasons I signed up.

He has a free 2-day MF seminar coming up next month that I considered posting about on BP, but was hesitant to do so given the overwhelming negativity against gurus of any kind on this site.

Really, investors are handing you a hundred grand because you're a student of this guy? Why would anyone ever go to Harvard? If that's even close I'd have to think there's more to it, like being under the supervision of your Great Oz. No one with a hundred grand would hand anyone money based on where the where being instructed IMO. Just has to be more there.

Like I said, modestly and with slight sarcasm , "of course, I hope they like something more about me than that." Nevertheless, I did meet these investors by networking with his students.
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Chris ClothierBusiness Member
Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y
@J Scott - Your argument is not wrong, I just think it is flawed a little...maybe.

So most trainers I know do not sell by the hour - one hour at a time. They will sell by the hour for the next 3 months or 90 days and you have to pay in advance. So if you want 9 hours during that time period at $100 an hour - you have to pay the trainer $900, today... for that future service. Would there be anything wrong if the trainer said, I am really good and I charge $300 an hour for my time so that will be $2700, today. What if the trainer said, I value my time...A LOT... because I am the best in the business and I get results and I charge $1000 for an hour with me. So today, the price to you is $9,000... for my future 10 hours of work with you. Is he wrong? What if the client wanted two hours a weeks. Would you say he is wrong for charging $1,800 or $5,400 or $18,000? Is he wrong for charging that up front before scheduling those hours and taking them off the book? I do know plenty of professionals who charge very high hourly rates and they collect up front for a book of hours and regardless of what I think of their prices...they are booked solid. There is demand and people are willing to pay in advance for a service.

Now financial advisers and most nutritionists are going to charge for their time as it is used not as it is booked. But what about implied time. If it is implied that by hiring me, you will "get to use" a certain amount of my time and I am going to be "selling" you those hours now. I will give you "X" number of hours and here is my rate. I have seen really poor attempts by gurus to make things seem like they are more valuable than they are, but I have only seen a couple who break down clearly the number of hours a person will get in their program and what the cost of each of those hours will be.

Everyone gets to place a value on their time or their service.

I agree that comparing my examples may be too simplistic and not close enough to apples to apples. But in my mind, it still comes down to how much a person values their time and their service. I hold no ill will against anyone for deciding their own value. If there is not market place or demand, then they will fail. If they are priced too high, they will fail and if there product or service stinks...they will fail.

Let me just finish by saying that there is plenty in the guru and seminar world that is disgusting. Plenty! But, I personally do not have a problem - in general - with a person or company saying "this is what it costs for my program, seminar, book or service". They ultimately will have to back it up and the consumers can say yes or no. I hope that more people learn to say no when they need to.
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
12y
Its like anything that you pay for advice wise.. YOu can talk with and attorney for 500 an hour and not follow their advice anyway... What is it worth to someone who paid 10k at a seminar and learned that court house steps sales involved 1st 2nd 3rd position loans.. Over the Years I have seen at least one newbie a year buy a 2nd or 3rd position TD only to lose 30 to100k cash that day when they handed over their cashier checks... A 10k seminar might have taught them that they needed to check chain of title.. I have personally been to the fulfillment floors in UTAH and watched the mentors in action. Been on numerous bus rides with students from all different turn key or gurus.. and on each one I met one or more that had done excellent with the training even though they paid a bunch for it but if they are doing deals for years on end the price per deal drops dramatically. Of course just like anything the majority will never do anything... My big heart burn is like whats on the radio in PDX right now Grasie is spouting the same BS get rich with non of your own money right in your back yard you need no credit and no money. NOw that just is not the case 99.9% of the time.. Might have been back in the day of true equity lending.. But as a HML our underwriting even in 2003 was to get credit tax returns and PG.. WE would never have loaned to someone with crappy credit and no income. And I have talked to many at the seminars that put the course on a credit card and had no hope period.. I think those people need to be weeded out.. But hey there is no qualify a seminar participant they want to do it they take the money.
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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
@J Scott - Your argument is not wrong, I just think it is flawed a little...maybe.

Chris -

Your argument is absolutely correct. But, like you, I see a flaw...and I think it goes back to a mistake I made by equating real estate coaches with personal trainers (for example). They are actually different in a very key respect...

In your example of a world class trainer, the trainer's highest and best use of his time (from a financial perspective) is training. He's not going to make more money by lifting weights or running sprints than he is by teaching someone to lift weights and run sprints.

But, if a real estate coach is truly world class (i.e., his coaching warrants hundreds or thousands of dollars per hour), then I would argue that the highest and best of his time is doing real estate deals, not teaching.

Which begs the question -- if someone can make more money doing one thing, why is he doing something else?

Certainly, the answer could be, "Because he wants to help people," or something else relatively altruistic. But, more likely than not, the fact of the matter is that the person couldn't really be making more money doing the other thing. In other words, he's not as world class as he might lead people to believe.

I'm sure there are plenty of real estate coaches out there who are counter-examples to what I wrote above (they are worth what they charge), but in my opinion, the logic behind the industry -- as a whole -- is flawed, and that's why, in general, I'm against the industry. But, when a particular real estate coach provides a service that is worth the cost of admission, I have absolutely no problem with that.
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Jackie Lange
Investor · Central America, Panama · Member since 2010 · 423 posts · 293 votes
12y
It still amazes me that people on forums trust someone just because they have more posts than anyone else. Many would rather rely on that information than attend a 2 or 3 day $500 seminar taught by someone with 20 or more years of "in the trenches" experience.

If these guys have so much time to post on forums, when do they ever have time to DO DEALS?

Any seminar that costs more than $600 for the weekend is probably taught by people who are NOT making their living doing real estate deals.

Avoid the freebie seminars. They are all trying to upsell you on the expensive seminar and home study courses or even worse, their expensive coaching programs.

When I first started, I attended seminars taught by one of the late night infomerical gurus. It was $3500 per seminar and there were always multiple upsells to the next event or home study course.

After a few events, i realized that I knew more than the instructors did - mostly because I was out there doing deals every week and they were out there teaching seminars instead of doing deals.

I gave up on seminars and decided I could learn more by DOING than learning

That was until I met Jack Miller and Peter Fortunato. These guys were far superior to anything I have ever attended before. There was no sales pitch. The seminars were $500 for a 3 day event packed with information.

I learned so much from Jack and Peter. Their information opened my mind to new ways to structure offers, find deals, financing, asset protection, and so much more. They helped to quadruple my biz fast which made it possible for me to semi-retire to my tropical paradise in Central America
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Carlos Flores
Commercial Real Estate Lender / Syndicator · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 888 posts · 309 votes
12y
Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

@Carlos Flores not picking on you, just the concepts in your post: "There are three levels - a program for passives to become sophisticated MF investors, a program with webinars and other materials without personal mentoring, and a program where you get everything in the previous level plus personal mentoring. No breadcrumbs leading to the next super secret wham bam package, no sharing of profits, etc."

Level 1 = passive investor to sophisticated investor??

Do you realize that makes zero sense? The sophistication of an investor doesn't change if their role is passive or active.

Level 2 = Webinar Support?

So, by the virtue of this level existing, it pre-suggests the material given in Level 1 is insufficient. That is, since the webinar support is needed to have a better grasp of the material it means the material in it's content or presentation has omissions or flaws.

Level 3 = The Coach/Mentor

So, the holy grail. What they really want to sell. A limited amount of time, their time, so you can ask questions from the material in Level 1, that you clearly didn't understand and from the webinar material in Level 2, that only created more questions than answers since Level 1 material was insufficient. They will allow you to pay them so they can tell you what they didn't explain well, or put into the first two levels in order to create some value for a Level 3 membership.

Just because you buy a hose and a fire extinguisher doesn't mean you are a firefighter. Just saying.

Your interpretation of Level 1 is inaccurate. My bad ... my fault for not being more clear. I don't know enough about it and it's not my program to defend. From what I understand, it's designed to teach someone that thinks they want to invest passively in mf deals about the asset class. Some sponsors might find value in knowing passive investors understand what they're investing in :-)

As for the rest, not my program and not worth my time to respond. All I can say is I've met people who are principals in deals as a result of working with this guy. Some students are in escrow today.

Could they have done that on their own? Probably. Will people sign up with this guy or others and never do anything? Absolutely! Could he run a REI or a Fund or do something else more profitable than teaching? Who cares. He is right where I need him to be right now and that's all that matters to me.
2 Reply
Dev HornPro Member
Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
Seems pretty obvious that REI education is a huge opportunity. Look at the operations that Dean, Armando, and Than have, and CLEARLY they are banking WAY more than they would if they were flipping houses.

But these guys fill a demand out there from new investors that are afraid to act. They need one more class, one more seminar, one more coaching session - then they will have the confidence they need. Sadly for some, they invest in education but apparently never gain the confidence necessary to do a deal. Whose fault is that? Many will tell you that the quality of the education they got was top-notch...

Are the gurus or coaches to blame? Or the people who throw money at them?
1 Reply
Ned CareyPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
12y
I am actually for paying for coaching. I have spent over $100K in programs courses seminars etc. I believe there is not better place to invest than myself.

However I can't recommend you do that . . . because I know the vast majority of coaching students fail and never make a penny.
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