FortuneBuilders? OR FortuneTakers??

FortuneBuilders? OR FortuneTakers??

logistics · Lexington, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 30 votes

[Note: This post was originally a reply to an OP from Columbus, OH talking about having been "Accepted" into the mastery program. I felt it needed to be disseminated wider than that so others can decide for themselves.]

I just returned this morning after blowing off the 2nd and 3rd day of their 3-day pep rally/sales pitch in Louisville, KY for which I originally paid $197. The entire session was a sales technique designed to get you accustomed to saying "Yes" so that when they set the hook, you will say "yes" again without much thought. They will have overcome all your objections, no different than the sales technique taught to all car salesmen.

The price quoted to me by Cassie, one of the assistants, was $30-50k for the *er-hmm* "mastery program" where "not everyone is accepted" (unless the mark is able to raise their credit card credit limit or have cash in the amount FB wants to suck out of your pocket, which they overcome the objection to by saying you'll recoup that amount in your first one or two deals. Why they think it's ok for me to turn over the profit from my first couple of deals to them is beyond my comprehension.)

There's an immediate tip-off about their sole purpose when you fill out the application. On it, they ask for your current income and credit card combined limit. They want to know just how much they can push you for to enter the program. I burned mine after I gave it a little thought. Then, got my refund for the 3-day sales pitch.

By the way, they also have you tell why you want to get into their mastery program and a few other questions. This is to determine your level of desperation and how far they can get you to push your credit limit.

During the 3-day, they consistently talk about their "back office", something they also did in the brochure they gave me prior to going. This is their term for the database system they've developed "costing MILLIONS of dollars" that you can only get access to by going through their mastery program. What they don't tell you is the system can't access the MLS without you or a partner being a real estate agent and that's a pretty key requirement to making any successful use of the deal seeker portion of their system. Why they paid "MILLIONS of dollars" to have this back office system developed is beyond me. I worked mainframe computing systems for 20 years and I know they showed an intense lack of business acumen if they paid that kind of money for something they could have done for a few thousand bucks. DB programmers and the hardware and software to support the system don't cost that much. You could build one yourself on a PC in your home office with many user-friendly programs at home, even using Excel if you don't want a terribly complicated relational database. What their database keeps track of is buyer and seller contacts as well as properties they've located. I am assuming they also keep track of the various contractors they use and expenses associated with each project, but I didn't hear that said.

There's a disclaimer put on their printed materials saying they're not guaranteeing your results will be like any of the highlighted students or their own success. This is to be expected from any financial education program. There's also a disclaimer that they are not qualified tax accountants or financial planners. While this is also to be expected, it becomes obvious why they make this particular disclaimer when you're in Day 1 of the 3-day. In it, you will hear the following: use your Roth 401(k) money to make the earnest money deposit and then put all the profit from the deal back into your Roth TAX-FREE. Admittedly, I have not consulted a tax accountant on the verity of this statement, but I find it more than extremely difficult to believe it's so. But, I WILL ask a tax accountant if it's true. IF it were so, that would account for Trump's ability to attain whatever real success he's had in REI (not counting driving an entire city into bankruptcy.) [IMO, his only real success is to get us to believe he's a billionaire. But, enough politics.]

My advice to anyone who is considering FortuneBuilders is to run... run FAR away as fast as you can. Nearly everything they're offering, including mentoring, can be gotten either for free or for a small share of your profits while you're gaining understanding through real hands-on deal making. What they're selling is a get-rich-quick scheme. The examples they give you aren't impossible, but what they don't tell you is that most of their success came in the years 2009-2013 when distressed properties were practically a dime a dozen and spread far and wide. In today's seller's market, those deals are not so easy to find. That's not to say they can't be found in residential and commercial real estate, but you are going to work your tush off to find them unless you simply get lucky. Getting yourself set up in business and marketing it isn't a simple walk in the park. Getting your business in front of eyeballs isn't simple, either, and mailing lists aren't exactly cheap, whether that's for email or snail mail.

They did give me one idea that could prove helpful during the sales pitch, which is to use postcards in your direct mailing. If you send email, it will likely go into junk mail and be trashed without ever viewing it. If you use snail mail in envelopes, even handwritten, it's likely to go into the trash without the receiver ever seeing what you're offering. But, if it's on a postcard, they'll see what you offer without having to open it. ;) The same could be said for billboards, but the expense there could be prohibitive, at least at first. (We've all seen the "We buy ugly houses" billboards, a company that sold for over a billion dollars, by the way.) I suppose you could also send addressed flyers, folded to envelope size, but you'd have to be sure some of your information was printed on the outside fold.

Anyhow, that's my experience with FB. BUYER BEWARE. Check the forum here for tons more information (read: WARNINGS) on FortuneTakers *heh heh*.

Additional note: They showed an interview with Warren Buffett in which he stated he would get mortgages on every residential property he could get his hands on if he was starting from scratch today. Note... mortgages, not paying cash out of pocket. THE man himself says use OPM in your deals. That's worth taking note of.

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Jim KennedyPro Member
Accountant · Cherry Hill, NJ · Member since 2016 · 173 posts · 201 votes
9y

Bravo on the scathing exposee. I am an investor for 12 years and also a CPA. I have done work for hundreds of r/e investors and I say that because I repeatedly see people pay 30,40,50,60 thousand for training. I know an investor who was proud that he spent over $100,000 on his education. I am not impressed. I built my real estate properties (a line of residential and commercial in two NJ counties, and for a while in Texas) based on the experience, strength and lessons from SJREIA investors, and my own trial and error mistakes. I have never paid The Big Bucks. In 12 years, I have spent less than $7,000, and 95% of that are my dues as a vendor member or to the REIA for the right to sponsor a meeting. Your exposee is great. And FB tax returns leave something to be desired, as well based on the half dozen Ive seen.

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  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Austin Willman Good for you, freak accident money given you into a guru course. I've attended one if those 3 day seminars, they all kept selling me buy and holds, told them I want a flip course, I don't have the time luxury of waiting for 300/month and i break even if a water heater breaks. Quickly he started on shifting his pitch on my strategy, then he starts talking about contractors and remodels, after he was done talking, i showed him my pocket license, then I asked him how many properties he has and why he is doing what he is doing, of course he has 1 primary and 1 rental that cash flows 150/month which he bought for 20k, i replied, that's it?! I have the means to pay the course outright, question is, why don't I take that 30k, look for someone who is investing/flipping, be the bank and the property owner, and learn from them? OR, take that same 30k, get bigger and larger project/s (say commercial 100k construction project), and safely yield 20k in....3 months the most? Why would I give someone 30k who really just depends on my success, I don't charge 1000/hr for over the phone advice, nor will I pay for it.
  • Burtonsville, MD · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    I just closed from the 3 day program like an hour ago.I learned a lot of things that I didn't know.The Mentor tries very hard to push me to increase my credit limit which I did to the amount they wanted but was short about $3k so he pulled out his laptop so I can apply for American express credit card.I saw his desperation in disguise so I immediately back off and told him I'm going to think it through because I have way too much credit than I need personally but it's fine. I even got the credit card company to give me better interest rate.I thought it through later during lunch so I decided not to go through with the mastery program.First of all,i make $15k or less per year,I'm an undergraduate freshmen with a lot of bills and financial obligations already which leaves me over budget or even with my income.How crazy will I be if I liquidate my 3k

  • Burtonsville, MD · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    How crazy will I be if I liquidated my $3k and maxed out $30k on credit card,and played this high risk gamble with my credit? I'm proud of myself right now for not going all the way into this dealer end though It might be legit.

  • Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 18 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Emmanuel Asante:

    How crazy will I be if I liquidated my $3k and maxed out $30k on credit card,and played this high risk gamble with my credit? I'm proud of myself right now for not going all the way into this dealer end though It might be legit.

     Emmanuel, you did the right thing. You were just a step away from making a major mistake and getting yourself into major debt.

  • Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 18 votes
    9y

    I'm fresh off FortuneTakers' "insiders workshop" 3 day seminar in Dayton, Ohio (Nov 11-13, 2016). If you want to read my honest no holds barren review on BP, read here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/79/topics/73606-is-fortune-builders-mastery-program-legit?page=11#p2388397

  • Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 18 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Austin Willman:

    Dude the program is between 30-50k if you're telling people to be spooked on the education they receive from those price points, you are doing something wrong. I think the tuition costs are very undervalued for what I've taken away from the program. Do the research and everyone can make their own decision..... mine was to surround myself with people who are extremely successful

    Austin, could you please summarize what you have taken away from the Mastery program? I understand that there is a lot of valuable information, especially of motivational and positive can-do attitude type, but I am more interested in actual real estate investing takeaways. What are those ninja tips and tricks?

    Aside from giving you mindmaps, checklists, scopes of work, as well as non-Ohio-specific contracts -- all of which are definitely valuable and save time, but can be re-created and are available elsewhere for less -- plus "credibility packets" (that's very basic and cookie-cutter) and private money presentation (which actually is inferior to what competition offers), what is there? Definitely not the software, which is not FB's, and is using a well-known Ohio-based software program, yet presented to potential Mastery program students as something unique to FortuneTakers.  

  • New to Real Estate · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 12 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    @Chris Adrian I'm more than happy to share my experience with the program so far, as I said I would keep updating as I get further in.

    I read your other post on the take away from the 3 day seminar, and it sounds like it was a much different experience than the one I had attended. Our presenter was Ralph Plumb, who was FB's first employee (or first something... he was part of the team in the early stages), and I learned a great deal from him over the weekend. Now, maybe it was because I hadn't had much of a financial or business education prior to, but I learned much more about business and finance than I did about real estate. I would say that 50% of the weekend was spent discussing local and national economy, business systems, tax code, self directed retirement plans, business law, and other subjects needed to run a business and not just about their Mastery program. Really, it was the people who were a part of FB present at the event that made me feel like taking the next step would be a good investment for me personally. 

    It has been one week as of today. Components I am finding the most value in thus far are how to structure a business and make it replicable. Using a systematic approach to conducting how your company will run, so that you can successfully expand without too much hassle. 

    Resources covering every aspect of REI, which are laid out in a step-by-step curriculum with associated "action plans" with each step to guide how to take action on each subject. The curriculum is broken down into 8 phases: business foundations, deal analysis and appraisals, offers/contracts/negotiations, marketing, financing, wholesaling, rehabbing and contractor management, and property sales. Each of these has associated materials, examples, and comprehension checkpoints.

    Field experts/career coaches available at any time. I personally had 3 calls last week just about questions I had about seeking attorney, accountant, and business set up. They want to help as much as possible (you obviously have to take the first step in asking for help). 

    They have their own software too, but I'm not to that point yet. 

    While I will still be active on BP forums, I won't be defending my decision or the FB program anymore after this, because it is getting to be counterproductive. If you have more questions however, message me! Hope this helped a bit. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y
    The Mastery program is only for those who understand the possibilities. If you are a newbie and you have no past real estate knowledge and you took the 3 day workshop to learn then none of this stuff will really make since. You can't be in this to just make money. You have to have a passion for it. Real estate Investing isn't for everyone. Their mastery program is priced high because you are paying for an education you wouldn't gain unless you did it on your own with trial an error. If you want to be successful and not have to go through all the trials , then you pay to put your business on the fast track. It's funny how people will pay 40,000 and more for a college education and that's just to get the degree. That's not the experience you need. With the mastery program your paying for the knowledge and the one on one mentoring from those with experience. They are basically walking you through the entire process without having to worry about making huge mistakes that can cost you money. If you believe in the program and yourself than the mastery program is a no brainer and like they said. You will pay back the entire cost after your first flip. Knowing that just makes me even more dedicated. And even if you don't walk away with a huge profit you at least gained the experience and knowledge.
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    Loved reading these posts about Fortune Builders! I love recognizing hype and sales pitches, and of course in the end.........I enjoy practicing my "NO!!!"

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I have never taken their class so I can't speak from direct experience.  I can say that the people I have bumped into that have taken the class have a pretty decent idea on concepts and numbers in the business.  They still can't short cut learning their local market but they don't see too far off on a good start.  Is it worth that kind of money to gain the knowledge I have seen come out, I don't know about that.  Everyone takes their own path.  

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Janina Farr:

    The Mastery program is only for those who understand the possibilities. If you are a newbie and you have no past real estate knowledge and you took the 3 day workshop to learn then none of this stuff will really make since. You can't be in this to just make money. You have to have a passion for it. Real estate Investing isn't for everyone. Their mastery program is priced high because you are paying for an education you wouldn't gain unless you did it on your own with trial an error. If you want to be successful and not have to go through all the trials , then you pay to put your business on the fast track. It's funny how people will pay 40,000 and more for a college education and that's just to get the degree. That's not the experience you need. With the mastery program your paying for the knowledge and the one on one mentoring from those with experience. They are basically walking you through the entire process without having to worry about making huge mistakes that can cost you money. If you believe in the program and yourself than the mastery program is a no brainer and like they said. You will pay back the entire cost after your first flip. Knowing that just makes me even more dedicated. And even if you don't walk away with a huge profit you at least gained the experience and knowledge.

    Sorry, but that is total BS, my BS Meter blew up!

    When you post on BP, you need to state if you have any business affiliation, such as student, trainer, etc. It's called disclosure when you speak about and hype a company you have some interest in.  

    That "believe in the program and yourself" is right out of "The Music Man" a musical about a con artist selling band instruments, he couldn't play any of them, so he told them, use the "think method", if you think you can then you can. 

    Stating that "You will pay back the entire cost after your first flip" is an implied warranty, the FTC would be interested in that statement, that's the kind of fraud stuff the Donald is looking at!

    And the gurus always like to compare their stuff to a college education, that is one of the most ludicrous arguments ever posted on the internet, the guru's target market is the under educated, uninformed and financially desperate, such real estate junk isn't even close to a college semester in business much less a degree.

    This is about the guru seminar industry, not the real estate industry, real estate is simply the topic for the underlying scam of education. 

    Just another way to separate a fool from their money. :)

  • Lawrence, MA · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 8 votes
    9y
    Janina Farr As someone who paid 250k for a college degree, I have to agree with you that it is a piece of paper. But the difference is that it's a title that you can put on your resume. Technical employers nowadays will not look twice at your resume if you don't have that degree on your resume. Of course, I can learn everything that I studied in school by self-teaching, but I still won't be able to prove to employers that I did. A good example are Masters programs. There's a good reason why employers require certain education titles before promoting them.
  • Maplewood, NJ · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    I too recently attended the 3 day seminar and your assessment of FB is spot on. The entire program is one big sales pitch to get you to plop down 30-50 grand. And the information they shared during the 3 day workshop was so flimsy and basic but they made it seem like they were divulging trade secrets. Bigger Pockets offers a much broader in depth education and access without needing to raise your credit limit.
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    LOL, trade secrets, there aren't any in real estate, just spin to the old basics that have been accomplished for decades or centuries. Real estate is very much transacted by custom and laws, which is why so much guru junk gets so far out it becomes illegal, unethical or not customary in your area......that brings problems. 

    Real estate at the small investor level is pretty easy to learn, but the gurus play on those that want it now, quick, no real learning required in 3 or 4 steps, that isn't real estate, more like magic or witchcraft and folklore for a wheeler dealer. :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Ian Walsh  in my very active lending days I have attend most of the TV guru's presentations..

    many of the folks that sit through these and pay the money.. come to realize this is HARD to flip houses and end up just buying a rental that is presented at the end of the course.. I funded said rentals for these buyers... And make no mistake about it many of the folks that plunk down the dough have plenty of it. and the 40k to go is chump change... those that put it on their credit card and have no real experience are just like any other small business in start up mode a very small % will find their way and actually make a go of it... vast majority just can't get it done for lack of capital and experience in the industry... A real estate license and apprenticing at a company that tailors itself to realtors Kind of like me who do a lot of development and flipping can provide as good if not better foundation and you can get paid to learn instead of paying to learn..

    However to echo your comments  my guru students that are clients of mine are pretty rock solid.. the one's that went through the guru class and had no money when they came in and have no money ( and just credit card debt when they are done) are not anyone I would fund they simply are under-capitalized and not ready to take on deals.  I am sure you would underwrite them the same way

  • New Orleans, LA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Talk about a persistent group of people. The following week, after turning down "their offer" I received 3 calls from FB saying that I should call them. Then weeks after that still calls. The the most recent call was last week, when someone called confirmed who I was then asked me to hold for an FB associate. Really!? My partner and I went to the 3 Day seminar back in August. At first we were seriously considering signing up. We were going to pull the money out of my 401k, but after talking to my financial advisor and what I consider "divine intervention" we decided against it. We were sold, but the HARD pitch for the money RIGHT NOW!! made me doubt and question the process.
  • Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 18 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Janina Farr:

    The Mastery program is only for those who understand the possibilities. If you are a newbie and you have no past real estate knowledge and you took the 3 day workshop to learn then none of this stuff will really make since. You can't be in this to just make money. You have to have a passion for it. Real estate Investing isn't for everyone. Their mastery program is priced high because you are paying for an education you wouldn't gain unless you did it on your own with trial an error. If you want to be successful and not have to go through all the trials , then you pay to put your business on the fast track. It's funny how people will pay 40,000 and more for a college education and that's just to get the degree. That's not the experience you need. With the mastery program your paying for the knowledge and the one on one mentoring from those with experience. They are basically walking you through the entire process without having to worry about making huge mistakes that can cost you money. If you believe in the program and yourself than the mastery program is a no brainer and like they said. You will pay back the entire cost after your first flip. Knowing that just makes me even more dedicated. And even if you don't walk away with a huge profit you at least gained the experience and knowledge.

    Janina, for the record, I'm sufficiently experienced with REI, owning both residential and commercial. I can confidently state I can teach the same public FortuneTakers teach during those 3 days.

    My complaint about the 3 day "insiders workshop" was not that it's content didn't make sense -- please re-read my posts. I complained that there was virtually no content directly relevant to real estate investing. Out of a total of 24 hours spent during those 3 days, only 6-7 hours are actually about real estate investing. The rest are sales pitch, motivation, family, movie clips, and a lot on how to raise limits of your credit cards and get your 401K self-directed to make it easier for FortuneTakers to vacuum all that money out of you. 

    Now, as someone already called out your assessment of FB Mastery program, and asked to reveal your affiliation, I don't have to do that. 

    But I will point out that you use the same old argument FB and other guru's make about college education vs. their guru courses. I've addressed that ridiculous comparison in my posts before. Not only are the two apples and oranges, but the founder of FB who teaches you all these things, Than, went to Yale University, a very expensive Ivy League school.

    Meanwhile, you actually contradict yourself. In one spot you state "You can't be in this to just make money" (i.e., stating that we can't skim on education and thus on expensive FB Mastery course), but then in the other "It's funny how people will pay 40,000 and more for a college education" (by the way, in which reputable college can you get a BA/BS or MA/MS for $40,000 in U.S.?) So please make up your mind -- is it OK to spend tens of thousands on education or is it not?

    Unlike FortuneTakers, a formal education/degree from a reputable accredited university/college is: 1) not only something you can actually put on your resume, 2) has actual real value (please don't tell me a JD, MBA, MD/DO, DDS, BS/MS in MIS/Engineering have no real-life value) and 3) what's required by virtually all employers out there, as well as, if you are a small business owner, by various government agencies in order to do business with them (e.g., get an SBA loan), but they are far more transparent in terms of:

    I) revenue and expenses -- you see, Universities don't claim that real estate is their main business. They say education is their core business -- and they publish their revenues and expenses. FortuneTakers claim that real estate is their core business, and education is just a way to "give back" and "spread the wealth" (very nice people Than, JD and Paul are!)

    II) universities and colleges offer scholarships and fellowships. FortuneTakers do not.

    III) universities and colleges - accredited one's, not private for-profit trash that are finally being cracked down upon - do not do sales pitches and encourage people to increase their credit card limits to spend on FB Mastery and then self-direct their IRA's/401K's to be able to do their first flip.

    IV) success rate as measured by graduation and employment. For example, let's see data from Yale University.

    RECEIVED JOB OFFER BY THREE MONTHS POST-GRADUATION: 93.4%

    228 OF 244 STUDENTS SEEKING EMPLOYMENT

    ACCEPTED JOB OFFER BY THREE MONTHS POST-GRADUATION: 92.2%

    225 OF 244 STUDENTS SEEKING EMPLOYMENT

    Source: http://som.yale.edu/programs/mba/careers/employmen...

    Since we know, and even you admit, that people don't go to university solely for the purpose of making money and getting a job, we can't expect 100% employment. Thus, 92-93% employment is incredibly high and very successful. 

    Now, can you please publish statistics for FortuneTakers (FB)? What is the percentage of students that, after giving their life's savings to Than, JD and Paul & Co., actually ends up making all this money back and is successful in real estate investing?

    So, what is the percent of successful graduates for FB? 1%? 3%?

    In fact, can you prove, as a very satisfied Mastery student, that you made your money back after the first flip, as you claim? 

  • Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 18 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tonja Raphael:

    Talk about a persistent group of people. The following week, after turning down "their offer" I received 3 calls from FB saying that I should call them. Then weeks after that still calls. The the most recent call was last week, when someone called confirmed who I was then asked me to hold for an FB associate. Really!?

    My partner and I went to the 3 Day seminar back in August. At first we were seriously considering signing up. We were going to pull the money out of my 401k, but after talking to my financial advisor and what I consider "divine intervention" we decided against it.

    We were sold, but the HARD pitch for the money RIGHT NOW!! made me doubt and question the process.

     So much for their "if you are accepted". It was indeed divine intervention if you were so close to blow the money on them. In my final in-seminar feedback form I wrote to them that they didn't fit my criteria and therefore I could not accept them.

  • Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 18 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Austin Willman:

    @Chris Adrian I'm more than happy to share my experience with the program so far, as I said I would keep updating as I get further in.

    I read your other post on the take away from the 3 day seminar, and it sounds like it was a much different experience than the one I had attended. Our presenter was Ralph Plumb, who was FB's first employee (or first something... he was part of the team in the early stages), and I learned a great deal from him over the weekend. Now, maybe it was because I hadn't had much of a financial or business education prior to, but I learned much more about business and finance than I did about real estate. I would say that 50% of the weekend was spent discussing local and national economy, business systems, tax code, self directed retirement plans, business law, and other subjects needed to run a business and not just about their Mastery program. Really, it was the people who were a part of FB present at the event that made me feel like taking the next step would be a good investment for me personally. 

     Thanks Austin, it sounds like you had the same exact experience as I did at the 3 day seminar, it's just we feel differently about it, because you are a self-professed newbie, whereas I've been around the block a few times. Out of a total of 24 hours spent during those 3 days, only 6-7 hours are actually about real estate investing. The rest are sales pitch, motivation, family, movie/TV clips, and a lot on how to raise limits of your credit cards and get your 401K self-directed to make it easier for FortuneTakers to vacuum all that money out of you. 

    I can see how a total newbie would think they found value in the 3 day seminar from FB - after all, they give you a glimpse of asset protection, tax optimization, corporate structure, macroeconomics, money supply, stocks, IRA, 401K's, biographies of rich and famous, etc.

    But that's putting card before the horse, since their advise is sometimes misleading. I've provided an example about their erroneous way of calculating ROI. Here's another one: they advise to establish Nevada LLC's, and make at least one of them an S-Corp. They never mention that since you reside in Ohio, you still need to register in Ohio as well, and you will still pay taxes on everything flipped and rented in Ohio. Nor do they mention that Nevada LLC fees add up ($75 LLC formation plus $200 State Business License (SBL), $150 for the Annual List annually, state corporate income taxes (Gross Receipts Tax), and of course annually for the registered agent ($50-$100)), whilst Ohio is probably the cheapest in the nation in terms of establishing and maintaining an LLC (just $100 one-time and that's all for life, plus small CAT income tax depending on the volume of business).

    And regarding the S-Corp - the whole seminar talks about how sole proprietors pay 15.3 FICA tax, but once you create the S-Corp, you don't pay the FICA tax. Until revealed later in the seminar that actually as an S-Corp you have to pay yourself a salary, and the instructor said he pays himself what IRS considers reasonable, which is 30% of the proceeds. And of course he doesn't mention that he has to pay FICA on that 30% - and that none of the newbies in the room would even have enough money at least in their first year to pay themselves that much as to make a difference on their payroll taxes. 

    All of this is provided by FB instructors who themselves don't have college degrees, and are fairly new to real estate (e.g., 6 years), don't know tax laws, don't know asset protection laws, and clearly don't understand accounting - hence mistakes about ROI calculations, FICA, Nevada LLC registration vs. your home state LLC, etc. No word was ever said about IRS classifying you and your company as a "dealer" when you do many flips.

  • Investor · Oxnard, CA · Member since 2014 · 438 posts · 187 votes
    9y

    As some have mentioned, you get out of it what you put into it. Obviously I do not have their numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if 9 out of 10 people who sign up never do a deal. Quite honestly, I do not have an issue with that as I like to believe in being accountable for your own actions. I have a feeling that they do say they will only choose a "select few," but will take anyone who can afford it. I have no data to back that feeling up though.  I talked to one new student in particular who was telling me about his life/financial situation and I thought to myself, "this poor guy has no idea what he's getting into."  Hopefully I am wrong about that and he finds success.

    As for myself, we have only done 1 rehab since joining in 2014. My wife has since become a full time real estate agent and has been able to convert some of the calls that do not make sense as an investment into retail listings. So that being said, we have more than covered the cost of the program and are continuing to pursue our real estate goals. Would we have been confident enough to purchase a home for 500K and put 93K worth of rehab into as our first project if we were not in fortune builders? Maybe, maybe not. But I can tell you that I had high confidence that we would be successful because of the due diligence we performed based off what we learned in the program.

    So in other words, the program is not for everyone. You should be aware of what you are getting when you sign up and what you are not getting. If anyone thinks they can sign up and deals will be handed to them, that is definitely not the case (nor do I believe that fortune builders ever says that is the case). 

  • Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 86 posts · 58 votes
    9y

    The best experience one can gain in this industry is simply jumping in, attending free meet ups, and net working with people in every aspect of the industry... of which all is FREE. 

    I have also learned that experience is worth more than any course/seminar you can attend. Its obviously very important not to just jump into any deal, and to do your due diligence, but nothing beats hand on experience. Even if you dont make a million dollars on your first flip... the experience and knowledge you gain is PRICELESS. 

  • Wholesaler · Clovis, CA · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 39 votes
    9y

    I have a recorded interview with Than Merrill, rehabbing and buy and holds are just a small part of their business. They mostly wholesale. I learned wholesaling from a $20 book. It's really simple.

    Several people that I tried to help have never done a deal, But they have many excuses.

    Many new wholesalers start up in my city, I see their bandit signs, 6 months later they are gone off to the next shiny object. It can be hard work, with many disappointments and failures, most people cant hack that. For me it was pure desperation, I stuck with it, sometimes going many months with no deals. But when I do one deal that pays out what I used to make in 6 months and realize I averaged 5 grand a month it makes it all worthwhile.

    It takes marketing and networking and making friends with others investors.

    Now I have a big cash reserve and I'm making a hell of a good living. If a chewed up ex construction worker with no HS diploma can do it, why wud you need to pay thousands of dollars when you can get a 20 dollar book?

    I have written my book on how I wholesale junk houses, it's only $2.99 and will be available on Kindle next year.

    But, do you have the passion and desperation and focus and persistence to succeed?

    Rando

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y
    I've read everyone's feedback and I really appreciate the responses, but for me I guess I just look at things differently. I was once a realtor and now I decided to flip to investing. My experience from the 3 days workshop was totally different from others and I'm super excited about joining the Mastery program. I paid the lesser of the packages, but since then I've felt really good about it. I guess at the end of the day with any investment it's all about how much you are willing to Grind and put into it. I'm a grinder so I only see myself going up from here and for me it's all all about a mindset!! Thanks for your guys feedback!!
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Janina Farr  since you were a realtor and you can afford to go.. then there is nothing wrong with spending your money any way you want... AS stated I have funded many students who have graduated all these courses from  rich dad to Montalongo and all in between and many owe thier career to those courses..  

    the going into massive credit card debt for most folks is simply not wise... but again these guys are very very good at what they do.. and the presentations model MLM ... 

    when was the last time you took a collage course and the instructor spent 30 minutes showing pictures of his family ( which may or may not be his real family) and talked about the only reason he is here teaching this class is because of them and how he wants to spend more time with them.. Each of these class's do that...I never fell for it because I could not wait to get my kids out of the house and educated and on there own.. I spend plenty of time with my kids without having to feel guilty about it  LOL

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 38 votes
    9y

    This is Paul Esajian and I am one of the owners of FortuneBuilders. 

    If anyone ever has a question or a concern with my company please feel free  to contact me personally. My contact information is at the bottom of my post. 

    I would never claim that I or my company is the be-all-end-all of real estate. Admittedly, I haven’t had much time to spend on this site and I am sure there is a lot of value here. 

    What I do know is we’ve had a lot of success with our own real estate investments and at the same time we’ve helped a lot of people be successful as well. I also know that if there is ever someone who has an issue I will personally do my absolute best to make sure it gets taken care of and help out in any way I can.

    I’ve personally been investing in real estate for 13 years now and have loved every aspect of the business. My two partners and I invest in both residential and commercial real estate and we currently have 30+ different  residential/commercial projects either under construction or on the market.  Over the years we’ve also built a nice rental portfolio. Four years ago, we  also started a lending fund for residential and commercial projects around the country for other investors.

    Years ago I read the original E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber and it  changed my entire perspective about how to build a real estate business. If you haven’t read the original E-myth Revisited I would highly recommend the book. Please note I did co-author a book with Michael Gerber so please don’t take this as me promoting my book because what I am recommending is the original E-Myth Revisited.

    The reason the book appealed to me years ago is because I was working way too hard and frustrated with my results. At the time I “was” my business and if you took my time out of the business the business didn’t produce any income. I also noticed that every real estate investor I knew at the time had the exact same struggles.

    After reading the E-Myth I became obsessed with building, testing, and tweaking our systems to automate as much of the real estate business as possible. Along the way I made a lot of very expensive mistakes that I learned from during the journey.

    I am proud to say that today I now have a real estate investing business that I have to spend only a few hours working in each week because it operates without me. It wasn’t easy and I am definitely not the smartest guy in the room by any means, but I am very proud of what we built.

    I give all the credit to the many mentors, coaches, and educational seminars I attended over the years. I still made a lot of mistakes, but my investment in my education helped me avoid countless others I would have made. As you know real estate has a lot of risk and in my opinion the only way to reduce that risk if is to get a very good education in the industry. This is why I believe so strongly in the value of education. 

    Having an automated real estate investing business has given me the time to develop and work on other businesses. It has also allowed me to pursue one of my greatest passions which is coaching other investors. 

    I also understand the value of the knowledge, systems, software, marketing collateral, and standard operating procedures we have spent countless hours developing over the past 13 years. Frankly, I would rather have just invested in these systems and acquired the knowledge that we currently teach through our online curriculum and 10 different two to four day bootcamps that we offer.

    We do take the time to sit down with people at our events who voluntarily want more information about our multi-year coaching programs. We want people to get their questions answered and understand what the program is and isn’t. We also want to make sure that people have the time necessary to contribute to their education and the business every week. You would be surprised at how many people think that just two or three hours a week is enough to really set yourself up for success, but it isn’t. 

    I am also not saying that we are the only or the cheapest road to success. People can read books, attend local networking groups, and spend a lot of time piecing together information. 

    I would also never claim that our process is guaranteed to make you successful or that our business is perfect. We have helped a lot of our students over the years start very successful real estate investing businesses. At the same time, we also have people who haven’t had as much
    success as we would like yet. 

    However, I will continue to do everything I can to continually improve what we do, what we teach, and how we help our community of students. I am not a nameless face of some educational program. I am extremely involved in teaching our classes, both online and at our live events, and I will continue to work tirelessly to help our students in any way I can. 

    Once again, if you ever have a question or concern feel free to reach out to me directly as my contact information is below.

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