FortuneBuilders? OR FortuneTakers??

FortuneBuilders? OR FortuneTakers??

logistics · Lexington, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 30 votes

[Note: This post was originally a reply to an OP from Columbus, OH talking about having been "Accepted" into the mastery program. I felt it needed to be disseminated wider than that so others can decide for themselves.]

I just returned this morning after blowing off the 2nd and 3rd day of their 3-day pep rally/sales pitch in Louisville, KY for which I originally paid $197. The entire session was a sales technique designed to get you accustomed to saying "Yes" so that when they set the hook, you will say "yes" again without much thought. They will have overcome all your objections, no different than the sales technique taught to all car salesmen.

The price quoted to me by Cassie, one of the assistants, was $30-50k for the *er-hmm* "mastery program" where "not everyone is accepted" (unless the mark is able to raise their credit card credit limit or have cash in the amount FB wants to suck out of your pocket, which they overcome the objection to by saying you'll recoup that amount in your first one or two deals. Why they think it's ok for me to turn over the profit from my first couple of deals to them is beyond my comprehension.)

There's an immediate tip-off about their sole purpose when you fill out the application. On it, they ask for your current income and credit card combined limit. They want to know just how much they can push you for to enter the program. I burned mine after I gave it a little thought. Then, got my refund for the 3-day sales pitch.

By the way, they also have you tell why you want to get into their mastery program and a few other questions. This is to determine your level of desperation and how far they can get you to push your credit limit.

During the 3-day, they consistently talk about their "back office", something they also did in the brochure they gave me prior to going. This is their term for the database system they've developed "costing MILLIONS of dollars" that you can only get access to by going through their mastery program. What they don't tell you is the system can't access the MLS without you or a partner being a real estate agent and that's a pretty key requirement to making any successful use of the deal seeker portion of their system. Why they paid "MILLIONS of dollars" to have this back office system developed is beyond me. I worked mainframe computing systems for 20 years and I know they showed an intense lack of business acumen if they paid that kind of money for something they could have done for a few thousand bucks. DB programmers and the hardware and software to support the system don't cost that much. You could build one yourself on a PC in your home office with many user-friendly programs at home, even using Excel if you don't want a terribly complicated relational database. What their database keeps track of is buyer and seller contacts as well as properties they've located. I am assuming they also keep track of the various contractors they use and expenses associated with each project, but I didn't hear that said.

There's a disclaimer put on their printed materials saying they're not guaranteeing your results will be like any of the highlighted students or their own success. This is to be expected from any financial education program. There's also a disclaimer that they are not qualified tax accountants or financial planners. While this is also to be expected, it becomes obvious why they make this particular disclaimer when you're in Day 1 of the 3-day. In it, you will hear the following: use your Roth 401(k) money to make the earnest money deposit and then put all the profit from the deal back into your Roth TAX-FREE. Admittedly, I have not consulted a tax accountant on the verity of this statement, but I find it more than extremely difficult to believe it's so. But, I WILL ask a tax accountant if it's true. IF it were so, that would account for Trump's ability to attain whatever real success he's had in REI (not counting driving an entire city into bankruptcy.) [IMO, his only real success is to get us to believe he's a billionaire. But, enough politics.]

My advice to anyone who is considering FortuneBuilders is to run... run FAR away as fast as you can. Nearly everything they're offering, including mentoring, can be gotten either for free or for a small share of your profits while you're gaining understanding through real hands-on deal making. What they're selling is a get-rich-quick scheme. The examples they give you aren't impossible, but what they don't tell you is that most of their success came in the years 2009-2013 when distressed properties were practically a dime a dozen and spread far and wide. In today's seller's market, those deals are not so easy to find. That's not to say they can't be found in residential and commercial real estate, but you are going to work your tush off to find them unless you simply get lucky. Getting yourself set up in business and marketing it isn't a simple walk in the park. Getting your business in front of eyeballs isn't simple, either, and mailing lists aren't exactly cheap, whether that's for email or snail mail.

They did give me one idea that could prove helpful during the sales pitch, which is to use postcards in your direct mailing. If you send email, it will likely go into junk mail and be trashed without ever viewing it. If you use snail mail in envelopes, even handwritten, it's likely to go into the trash without the receiver ever seeing what you're offering. But, if it's on a postcard, they'll see what you offer without having to open it. ;) The same could be said for billboards, but the expense there could be prohibitive, at least at first. (We've all seen the "We buy ugly houses" billboards, a company that sold for over a billion dollars, by the way.) I suppose you could also send addressed flyers, folded to envelope size, but you'd have to be sure some of your information was printed on the outside fold.

Anyhow, that's my experience with FB. BUYER BEWARE. Check the forum here for tons more information (read: WARNINGS) on FortuneTakers *heh heh*.

Additional note: They showed an interview with Warren Buffett in which he stated he would get mortgages on every residential property he could get his hands on if he was starting from scratch today. Note... mortgages, not paying cash out of pocket. THE man himself says use OPM in your deals. That's worth taking note of.

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Jim KennedyPro Member
Accountant · Cherry Hill, NJ · Member since 2016 · 173 posts · 201 votes
9y

Bravo on the scathing exposee. I am an investor for 12 years and also a CPA. I have done work for hundreds of r/e investors and I say that because I repeatedly see people pay 30,40,50,60 thousand for training. I know an investor who was proud that he spent over $100,000 on his education. I am not impressed. I built my real estate properties (a line of residential and commercial in two NJ counties, and for a while in Texas) based on the experience, strength and lessons from SJREIA investors, and my own trial and error mistakes. I have never paid The Big Bucks. In 12 years, I have spent less than $7,000, and 95% of that are my dues as a vendor member or to the REIA for the right to sponsor a meeting. Your exposee is great. And FB tax returns leave something to be desired, as well based on the half dozen Ive seen.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Paul Esajian,

    I've done your 3-day weekend. It's grueling! ... and the guy who was presenting didn't break for lunch until all the convenient places to get lunch had closed for the day. I realize you can't control those vendors - just be considerate of your attendees and their needs.

    The other thing is: drop the hard-sell, be entirely transparent. Let folks know that when they sign on for the 3-day, they WILL be solicited (up-sold) for a program costing as much as a luxury automobile. Let them know that it's NOT for beginners! It's for those with a going REI business they want to take to a new level.

    Honesty, transparency, integrity and ethics have never steered anyone wrong, in my judgement.

    You might also consider doing business with folks like me (see my profile). Next time you pass thru Chicago, look me up - let's chat.

    My $0.02 ...

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 165 posts · 49 votes
    9y

    I agree with Paul. I am a Realtor and attended Fortune Builders 3 day seminar and then paid to be part of their program, which, yes, is a significant amount of money, but far more valuable then paying for a 4 year college. Not saying that college isn't important, but joining Fortune Builders excelerates the investing process and gives you the tools to not make newbie mistakes or even mistakes by people that have been in the business for a while. The wealth of information that is given to a Mastery student from Fortune Builders is invaluable. Anyone attending these types of seminars and  thinks that they will not be (upsold) is going in blindly. You have to invest in yourself. Fortune Builders gives you the option to invest in yourself. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    I guess when it all said an done everyone has had a different experience and felt differently. Even with all the negative feedback I've heard a lot of positive feedback as well. Since joining I've had a positive experience so I guess it's just all up to you and how you receive the information and what your expectations are.

  • logistics · Lexington, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    In the interest of being fair, there are some people out there who aren't entirely committed to the idea of "risking it all" to get started in REI. They're a little timid and need their hands held. REI is a bit overwhelming. There's so many paths to choose and each has its pitfalls and, yes, it can bankrupt you if you're not paying close attention or don't have the knowledge before starting out. So, I can see where programs like FortuneBuilders have their place in the grand scheme of things. My co-worker who went to FB (and got me started thinking of REI as something more solid than a pie-in-the-sky idea) told me his motivation for going to the mastery program was he didn't want to reinvent the wheel. Well... I guess that has the possibility of being true, except... the real question is, when you're starting out, do you really need the wheels? From my perspective, the answer's No. When you first start out,  you need to get a house under contract that has the possibility of providing a profit, plus a private investor that can provide the necessary funding. Then, you need to keep an eye on cost overruns and blowing deadlines for having the work completed. If you can keep those things in line, you're on track to make profit.

    FB has a network of insiders to provide potential deals from places other investors haven't already crawled all over. That's helpful. They have a rehab estimator that I haven't been able to find anything comparable to outside their "system" that allows you to estimate costs based on whether you're 1.) flipping in an upscale, medium, or lower scale neighborhood, or 2.) rehab/hold/renting. Based on your choices and your area of the country, you get a decent ballpark figure for your rehab costs and you don't have to waste time getting contractors to give you estimates before making a reasonably confident offer. Time is sometimes a critical factor in whether you'll be the one that gets the deal. From what my buddy told me, it even gives him the SKU's in a list (for Lowe's, I think). This, too, is very helpful. [Note: I have not seen this tool in action. I can only report it as he described, and he IS, after all, a Republican, so trustworthiness may be an issue.]    ?8^)

    I recently heard the complaints students of Trump "University" are putting forth. From what I heard, I think they're going to lose the case. Many of them are using arguments found in this thread. I think they'll lose, not because Trump is president-elect, but because their arguments simply won't stand up to close scrutiny. I am not saying the information they got wasn't readily available on the internet, but if they were too lazy, or in too big of a hurry, to seek out that information on their own, then Trump is not to blame for their laziness. Was it smart of them to fall for the sales pitch? Well.... for most of us that answer is No, but for some... MAYBE.

  • Stockton, CA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    I have been to one of the free seminars and i was disapointed there goal is to get as many people to pay for what they think is the key to being  succsessful in the real estate business but I have come to realize that you can learn that there is no key just educating yourself and finding the strategy that works for you.

  • Member since 2018 · 1 post · 0 votes
    8y

    Thank you for the post. I was going to look into this and did register for a 2 hour "free" seminar. However, I had to do my homework on the company and/or people first. Glad I did. I'm in no financial position to be taken.

  • Rental Property Investor · Aurora, CO · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    If you want to get you feet wet without spending a ton of money on "coaching programs" then go to John Schaub's Building Wealth One House At A Time class normally held in January (or start with the book of the same name). He is a long time real estate investor and teacher. For $500-600 you get a couple day class in Florida and some great info. Another classic on audio is Dolf DeRoos Real Estate Investor College (or something like that).He is great.  Join your local Real Estate Investor Club. Maybe find a local mentor that will only charge a few thousand dollars or split deals with you. Just make sure it is someone that lives and breathes real estate. The success rate is so low on these programs that you should just use the money to buy a property. You will learn pretty fast that way. Good luck!

  • Real Estate Professional · Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    I have attended the 3 day workshop. Yes they do have another package to sell. However, if you know that you don't have the money or don't want to pay to get to the next level , that introduce to you everything you need to know in the 3 day course. So you have to go in knowing they will sell you something and just bypass that. What I do have to say however, is what they teach you in the 3 day course will take people years to learn on thier own. I can never understand how people would pay for the 3 day course and not see value in the 3 day course. They only see that another package is being sold. The 3 day course is at least 3-5 years of internet searches and learning through various means. Who cares about the upsell, learn what you need in the 3 days. From day 1 I went in knowing I wasn't purchasing the larger package however took great notes during the 3 days and have enough knowledge to actually get started in the business. Don't cut your nose to spite your face.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Jody Sims Take it from a successful investor, yours was a great and accurate post.  I completely agree.

    While the way Fortune Builders and the like sell is shameful, ultimately, you can't save people from themselves.  The lure is too great.  And people will defend them to no end--people here on this thread who have no success to show for it, people who have done one deal in five years, and people whom I personally know who have failed.  They all defend FB.

    You sound like a smart guy.  Let me know if I can be of any help.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Paul Esajian may I ask some questions?

    What is your pricing schedule?

    What is the success rate of your students?

    How do you qualify your applicants?

    These are all things that a college could easily answer.  (And as for the last question, HINT, it isn't easy to get into good schools.)  McDonalds could easily answer these questions for franchise applicants.  (And as for the last question, HINT, it isn't easy to qualify as a franchisee even if you have the money.)  I await your clear answers.

    • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 919 posts · 911 votes
      7y

      @Larry Turowski, you already know the answers!  But if you don’t, let me help you.  ;-)

      What is your pricing schedule?  As much as the mark, er student, has available.  Cash, grass, or credit works.

      What is the success rate?  It’s too difficult to determine what success is to different people.  As a result, we don’t keep those statistics.

      How do you qualify your applicants?  Easy.  If they have the money, we have the time.

      ;-)

    • Lender · Chicago IL · Member since 2020 · 357 posts · 229 votes
      6y

      I'm curious...is anyone here part of a mastermind group? Reason I ask is because I was wondering if investment/cost is about the same as what Fortune Builders is asking for. I've heard really good ones can cost about $50,000... thanks for your input!

    • Rental Property Investor · Gulf Breeze, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 733 votes
      6y

      My mastermind group costs a fraction of those five figures and I love seeing the results. It amazes how FortuneTakers is still around. It's almost like a cult. 

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