What makes someone a real estate "Guru"?
Seth WilliamsPro Member
Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 582 posts · 353 votesAfter hanging around these forums for about half a year now, I've noticed that the word "Guru" gets tossed around quite a bit, and (understandably) not in a good way. It's a label that tends to be used interchangeably with words like "scam", "ripoff", "liar", "no credibility", and a lot of other negative connotations.
I have to admit, when I hear the word "Guru" - the first thoughts that come to mind generally aren't positive either.
This got me to thinking, what exactly makes someone a "Guru"? At what point does someone deserve to be lumped into this category?
- When they make a particular claim?
- Is it an attitude, action or behavior?
- When they try to sell an informational product of any kind?
- When they claim to have a repeatable "system" of any kind?
- When they offer proof that they have been wildly successful?
- When they say that real estate investing is "easy"?
- Some other criteria?
I'm guessing there are a lot of different ideas out there. I'd be curious to hear what you all think, and why.
I don't think it's black-and-white, but in my opinion, here are two big things that would lead me to call someone a guru:
1. They make the bulk of their income in education, not investing in real estate.
2. They use their paid education (seminars, courses, etc) to upsell additional (generally higher priced) paid education.
These two things -- to me -- are the hallmark of a real estate "guru"...
I don't think it's black-and-white, but in my opinion, here are two big things that would lead me to call someone a guru:
1. They make the bulk of their income in education, not investing in real estate.
2. They use their paid education (seminars, courses, etc) to upsell additional (generally higher priced) paid education.
These two things -- to me -- are the hallmark of a real estate "guru"...
I would love to make more money off an education income than my RE investing. I would be in great shape, but currently I make nothing off RE education.
I do agree with the upsell, that is a dirty tactic meant to trick people.
I would add a guru usually gives best case scenarios without mentioning any negatives or possible faults in his system. The guru also may offer the same exact detailed program in every state regardless of state laws. Building on that the guru may have no problem suggesting less than ethical or even illegal techniques.
Hey guys - Am I a Guru? [REMOVED]
I ask because I recognize every name on this thread and am truly interested in your opinions...
I only did a quick look at your website, but I would say that you are not a guru in a bad sort of way.
While you do sell material and offer mentoring, I did not see the dirty upsale attempt. You state you offer mentoring but it is by the hour not a huge $25k upfront fee. I think there is a difference between investing some money towards education and getting swindled. I have no problem with people selling educational material, if it is good quality material then it will help both the buyer and author make a living.
Ryan B. Thank you for the comment! I think I'll keep making a living buying apartments though lol
Ben Leybovich,
I see nothing wrong with offering a service for money either. I started a blog this year and hopefully I will be able to monetize it in some way some day. Last I checked I had 60+ posts and well over 60,000 words I've written since March.
I think Guru is someone that is trying to trick someone into spending money on a system that either has never been proven or they are excessive charges that people who signed up did not expect.
Guru doesn't have to be a bad thing but unfortunately, a few bad self-proclaimed Gurus ruined the term with over-marketing. I would love to see their student success rates publicly posted as part of their marketing, not just the 'testimonial' with the accompanying disclaimer that this person's earnings/experience were unusual.
I've been in professional training for over 17 years so I would love to work with ANY guru RE education group to do a real academic, statistical analysis on their materials and how to measure success. I asked a local mentor what % of their students were actually doing deals as a measure of success and he said about 20%. That means that 80% are failing! One online guru said 73% of all students fail! Those are totally unacceptable rates by any measure.
True, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him pull the trigger on a deal but most RE training has no stated learning objectives, no real student tracking and no way to measure long-term success. Any program/person who can show me a 70% or better SUCCESS rate would have my money. They'd need to have a way to show that students are actually learning the materials (not just that they were given them) and that the guru actually helped them achieve success. And that success would have to be measured by well, measurable factors like # of deals completed, amount of income attained, time to complete deals, did the student achieve their personal goals of 'quitting their job in 19 weeks' or replacing their income.
Belinda Lopez
I would love to know the average success rate for someone taking education on a brand new venture they have no experience in. I have heard that the success rate is extremely low for any industry where someone is paying a third party for training on starting a new career or investment. Whether it be MMM, Real Estate or something else.
A lot of people don't even show up for training or give up right away even after they have paid for it. It may not be a measure of the trainers ability but a measure of societies motivation to learn something new and actually do it.
Do you have any figures on what the success rate is for people going into MMM or another venture where they are responsible for taking action and they are not being paid by a company to start a new job with very clear guidelines?
@Mark Ferguson To me, transitioning to RE was like getting another Master's degree; about two years of hands-on learning and research is needed and most folks are just looking for a shortcut; gurus offer that - or at least promise it. Most Masters or other degree programs need to have at least an 80% graduation rate or they will lose accreditation. I don't know what the success/graduation rates are for trade schools like Remington or ITT but they I'll bet they are at least 50%. If they were as low as 20% they'd never stay in business. RE Gurus can keep making money off newbies b/c their marketing is so good and there's lots of them, not necessarily that their product is so good.
I think HomeVestors might be the exception in this arena as they are more of a franchise than just a program. If you look at successful franchise offerings, you can't go wrong with McDonald's Hamburger University model! I met the lady who runs that program and EVERYONE is successful who goes through that program and it's required for all new owners. If we could build a program like that for RE investors. . .
Belinda Lopez - I think if the Gurus were required to report their success rates, they'd probably be out of business . . .
Belinda Lopez, I understand the trade schools and master degree programs have high success rates, but I think that is a completely different comparison. That would be like asking the Real Estate gurus how many people took their full course and graduated, not how many did deals.
How many of the masters degree or trade school students who started in the school actually went into that field and become successful?
I am curious what the success rate for people who enter an MMM program is, because that seems to me like a more similar comparison. After all the masters programs screen their applicants to make sure they are only accepting those with the highest chance of graduation while an MMM or Guru will accept anyone who wants to learn.
FYI, I am not trying to defend Gurus, I think many are complete rip-offs with bad info.
People that provide help/services for money are not guru's in my book. With that being said, the second I see anything in their marketing or advertising that says and/or implies:
"Real estate is easy and you can make money with little effort and time" (or any variation of that)
Then BOOOOM! Down into the guru category you go for me.
Those are interesting stats Belinda Lopez, I totally believe it (I've actually heard of failure rates up to 98% from some real estate courses - so I'm sure it can get pretty bleak).
At the same time, I agree with you Mark Ferguson - I think a lot of people buy into the belief that simply buying it will make them successful, but they totally overlook the actual "work" aspect of it. A high failure rate doesn't necessarily mean the information isn't legitimate - it might just be a challenging business.
Maybe a good follow up question would be:
Is it fair to lump all Gurus into the "dishonest", "scam", "swindling" category? If somebody's sales pitch SCREAMS all of the stereotypical Guru catch phrases - does that automatically mean they aren't bringing any value to the table?
I've bought a few courses in my time and there has almost always been SOME kind of value to take away (or at the very least, they have given me some viable new alternatives to consider). I think each one really needs to be considered on a case by case basis.
It's a tough nut to crack, but I think this is an area where everyone needs to think critically.
Great post, and Seth Williams, I agree with you that there are different Gurus, and all are not alike. So, then a guru could be a mentor or coach, just with less notariety, and they don't have a huge marketing budget?
Seth Williams
You make a great point about getting something out of everything you have purchased even if it was mostly junk.
I am a strong believer in what we get out of anything depends on ourselves and our attitude. If you go into a program convinced you will fail and it won't work it probably is not going to work. If you convince yourself it will work and you will do everything you can to make it work it is going to work.
I have purchased many training programs and books on all kinds of subjects and I always learned at least one thing from them all and I learned a lot from most of them. Even if you learn what not to do you still come away with more knowledge than before you bought the program.
I’ll jump in on this since I just recently started offering a program for new or inexperienced wholesalers. Gurus are a big reason why I created the program; for someone like me, their claims are offensive. They drastically oversimplify the process to make anyone and everyone feel like it’s a simple, no money needed, get rich quick business. I recently saw a poster here on BP defend a well-known guru saying that his unrealistic claims were simply “marketing”. I could sell a lot more memberships by making false promises, or in his words marketing, but then I’d be just another lying guru.
I openly admit that almost everything I know can be found on the internet, a lot of it right here. There is no “secret” to wholesaling. If someone wants to pay a very reasonable fee they can speed up the process of learning and get unlimited advice from someone with a lot of experience and success. I also tell people that have no money to put their wallet away and not to sign-up.
When I use the term I'm usually speaking to the definition or description given by Mark.
Those types should be nailed, IMO. They either have no idea or don't care about the damage they cause, the problems they set up between others and worse, the financial harm caused. Playing on despite people trying to make a living with limited resources and putting them in a position of using up their money for materials and promises, not to mention the extended living expenses, on strategies that may or may not work in their area is lower than low. If I had to make a choice between having to have lunch with one of these gurus and a bank robber, I'd take the bank robber.
I have no problem at all with selling knowledge or information that is valid, legal and in compliance, ethical and that paints the picture of reality.
I had to buy a lot of books going through college and they cost more in grad school, glad I didn't have to buy medical text books! I'd say no RE program or book is worth more than fifty bucks, if it's in depth, maybe a hundred IMO! The price reflects the value contained in the information, gurus simply swindle people by hype falling flat on real content. The other thing is to determine if the author of any technical subject is actually qualified to give instruction, being successful doing XYZ and making a million means it worked for them, not that anyone else can duplicate that nor is having made money any qualification to actually teach others.
I've been called a "forum guru" kind of a swipe back at me for the information I give or my opinions, might be, don't know, just passing my experiences and knowledge along for free, so whatever. :)
1. They make the bulk of their income in education, not investing in real estate.
2. They use their paid education (seminars, courses, etc) to upsell additional (generally higher priced) paid education.
These two things -- to me -- are the hallmark of a real estate "guru"...
I'm in agreement with J. REI educators who write a book that sells on Amazon for $25 and have no seminars or other "courses" to upsell won't usually get referred to as a guru. REI educators who sell very technical courses or day workshop for a few hundred dollars (on notes or tax strategies, for example) won't usually be referred to gurus either. Gurus usually have motivational and "financial freedom" components as part of their message.
They have a group of acolytes that they refer to as "students", LOL :). Sort of a master/grasshoppa relationship that I find insulting.
A classic hallmark is that they shill for each other on-line in a never-ending barrage of affiliate marketing e-mails, that I am constantly trying to unsubscribe from. So they don't really compete with each other, but rather work in a format of trying to extract every possible cent from the collective email lists of everyone in this sordid little fraternity.
K. Marie Poe I have a motivational and financial freedom components to my message. I live with MS and financial freedom is not a desire but a necessity in my life for this reason. "If I can do it, so can you - just need the right perspective and tools. And you better do it before stuff hits the fan, like it did in my life" What's wrong with this message?
I think HomeVestors might be the exception in this arena as they are more of a franchise than just a program. If you look at successful franchise offerings, you can't go wrong with McDonald's Hamburger University model! I met the lady who runs that program and EVERYONE is successful who goes through that program and it's required for all new owners. If we could build a program like that for RE investors. . .
Belinda: I don't one think one should compare success rates of REI courses/programs with that of degree or trade certificate programs. Even if an academic or trade program has a 100% graduation rate, that doesn't say anything about career or financial success. Look to the unemployment rate and underemployment rate for young adults graduating in the last five years. Trade schools and medical certificate schools have the highest student loan default rates (somewhere in the 30% range). That indicates a lot of people with financial or employment challenges after graduating. Passing the state bar exam doesn't translate to success or income in law.
I would be interested in how many REI students make their money back and in what time frame. There's a lot of guru hype that goes something like $10K is cheap if your first deal nets you $50K. Sounds rational. But what are the stats? How long does it take? How much more do you have to spend after the $10K course fee?
A franchise with an educational component serves the franchise. It requires the franchisee to follow instructions and perpetuate the same product and the same message. The education/training component is more for the benefit of the franchise than franchisee. Getting paid a continuous fee to train people to work for you is the brilliance of successful franchises.
LOL David Beard - ain't that the truth.
I just did some searching through some of the old Guru emails I've gotten over the past year (lists that I'm pretty sure I never subscribed to) and these are some of the exact subject lines (verbatim - I'm not making this stuff up):
- Buy House for $3K sell with $43K Profit in 1 day
- No mailings, no phone calls, just profits...
- Turn $100 into $35K - detailed training
- $10,000 in the Next 30 Days... Guaranteed!?!
- New $400 Tax Sale training, yours for $9.00 (actually for free)
- 100K/deal in 1 day
- bought for $100, made over $60,000
- 200K a month with ZERO marketing budget
- $5997 worth of stuff for $9
I mean... seriously??
I openly admit that almost everything I know can be found on the internet, a lot of it right here. There is no “secret” to wholesaling. If someone wants to pay a very reasonable fee they can speed up the process of learning and get unlimited advice from someone with a lot of experience and success. I also tell people that have no money to put their wallet away and not to sign-up.
Bravo - see there are alot of honest, really good programs out there. You're spot on when you say there's no secret o wholesaling but learning can be much faster from a good teacher who knows how to transfer that experience/knowledge to others.
When we train instructors, we beat into them that it's not about you telling them everything you know, it's teaching them everything they 'need to know' and when they need to know it. Information overload can squash excited learners and just b/c they know everything doesn't mean they can apply it. Plus there are lots of soft skills in RE so very hard to train that. My 2nd mentor was a doorknocker and I'm really shy (initially) so I dreaded doorknocking but it is a very effective method.
I've seen others try to develop good training programs b/c they were so frustrated with what was out so I wish you good luck! If you want an honest, experienced opinion from the training development side, let me know.
FYI: Why is training so expensive to build? one hour of corporate level eLearning can run anywhere from $10k - $25k and over 100 hours to develop and deploy. That's for ONE hour. Multiply that by the total hours of training and it's really expensive. Most gurus don't spend that kind of money to develop their stuff. That includes testing and results tracking so we can show an ROI.