Furnace vs Electric heat on Rehab
Farmington, NY · Member since 2017 · 35 posts · 10 votes
I am currently doing a complete rehab on a duplex (side by side) in Canandaigua (Finger Lakes). I intended to BRRRR this property after the rehab is done.
Here is the issue that I am looking for feed back:
Each duplex has separate furnaces. One furnace is shot and needs all new duct work. Neither apartment has any duct to the upstairs where the bedrooms are. After getting some HVAC estimates ($13k) I am trying to figure out what is my best solution. I am considering selling the one good furnace and not run any ductwork to the apartments and replace the system with electric baseboard heat (or any other suggestions that you may have).
My concern is tenant push back on higher electric bills for heat. What is your take on all of this?
Thanks in advance!
Is there a place to run a duct chase? (supply/return)? Can you build one?
Often you can get duct runs up to an attic, then branch out from there. Need to make sure insulation is solid in attic, and your CFM and btu/hr is high enough to handle the head pressure it has to supply to push that air up that much vertically. Can be done though.
Hire out the duct work separately.
Do that first, and don't take any BS by people trying to scare you. The calcs for duct sizing by room size are SUPER SUPER simple. You literally just reference a chart for a certain square footage and then a corresponding cross sectional size of the duct is what you need to supply that square footage. Don't be intimidated there.
If you hire the duct out separately, and do that first (you need to make sure that where your supply/return pop out into your area(s) with the furnace/central air, that they can tie into the plenum....
But if you hire that separately. you can cut your costs in probably 1/3 there.
Then you hire the installation of the actual central units. Hire someone that's willing to do it based on where you're at in the project. If you need to permit, have that conversation with them in advance.
I'd think instead of 13k you could be closer to 7-8k going this route of course I haven't seen your setup yet.
On the electrical, sure, that's an option. You'd have to look at proximity to panels, metering, etc there too as you'd have some load (copper wires) to likely pull.
It typically costs a lot more to heat using electricity vs NG, so I guess you'd be passing that along to the tenants?
Is there a place to run a duct chase? (supply/return)? Can you build one?
Often you can get duct runs up to an attic, then branch out from there. Need to make sure insulation is solid in attic, and your CFM and btu/hr is high enough to handle the head pressure it has to supply to push that air up that much vertically. Can be done though.
Hire out the duct work separately.
Do that first, and don't take any BS by people trying to scare you. The calcs for duct sizing by room size are SUPER SUPER simple. You literally just reference a chart for a certain square footage and then a corresponding cross sectional size of the duct is what you need to supply that square footage. Don't be intimidated there.
If you hire the duct out separately, and do that first (you need to make sure that where your supply/return pop out into your area(s) with the furnace/central air, that they can tie into the plenum....
But if you hire that separately. you can cut your costs in probably 1/3 there.
Then you hire the installation of the actual central units. Hire someone that's willing to do it based on where you're at in the project. If you need to permit, have that conversation with them in advance.
I'd think instead of 13k you could be closer to 7-8k going this route of course I haven't seen your setup yet.
On the electrical, sure, that's an option. You'd have to look at proximity to panels, metering, etc there too as you'd have some load (copper wires) to likely pull.
It typically costs a lot more to heat using electricity vs NG, so I guess you'd be passing that along to the tenants?
Jim,
Thanks for the feed back, and great advice. And yes the tenants will pay their own utilites.
Im a fan of gas and a central hvac system but that is common here. Not sure what the norm is for your area. Once you have ductwork you now have the option for AC as well.
Suggest you go the electric route--less or no maintenance costs, and when repair is needed, inexpensive compared to most gas fired boilers or furnaces.
I would also have a small natural gas wall space heater installed somewhere on the main living floor (not in bedrooms) just in case of power outage and / or for supplemental heating.
Regarding higher costs for tenants, we inform them they can turn down the thermostat(s) in rooms that don't need heating during the day (bedrooms) and those savings can help reduce total heating costs to tenant.
If you do not use the furnaces in basement, be sure to run a heater or two down there to make sure pipes don't freeze--winter is only a few months away.
I use the gas fired room furnaces in almost all of my rentals. They are bullet-proof, cheap heating costs for the tenant, and cost about one third the price of a furnace. I've had to replace a boiler before, and that is not a fun check to write.
Only issue you may have is an up-down apartment. You may have to put one on each floor. (Still cheaper than the furnace and you basically given the tenant an ability to zone control their heating). And much easier to run a gas line to the second floor than duct runs.
Another benefit to these units is that they are super easy to work on (not many parts), so that could save you a call to an HVAC technician.
All my rentals are single floor, and these work terrific for anything less than 900 square feet. On the really long floor plans (galley kitchen and bathroom beyond), I install a 220v electric wall heater in the bathroom so tenants can use it to "take the edge off" in the bathroom mid-winter. Since it's supplemental heat, no one gripes about the expense, since it is total up to them whether or not to use, and often it is situational (used for an hour or two only).
Good luck!
That is definitely a high number for sure. I would agree that using electric could be an "issue" for tenants because that area gets dumped with snow and pretty cold. If it isn't properly insulated it could compound the issue with costly electric heat. A new smaller furnace and AC unit outside costs around $3400 (direct cost...I just got one). It supplies (1500sqft) I would suggest finding a place to frame out the supply and return downstairs on the first floor(these will be large) and go into the attic and duct down from the ceiling with flex duct.
Your joists in the ceiling most likely go sideways across (and are likely on 16'') so you will have to bump out around 3 feet to accommodate the ducting going up/down and frame around./
In my humble opinion, this is the best route for that area. I just did the same thing on my primary/vacation rental and we have a similar climate.
Hope this helps.
I'm in Oneonta and I remove furnaces and go all electric. I don't even mention it and no-one asks. I insulate the heck out of my rehabs and work hard on air intrusions though.
@Jeremy Marshall - as an upstate NY investor who has experience with many of these heating methods(natural gas forced air vs electric resistance heat, as well as gas/steam, oil/hot water, natural gas space heat,) I strongly recommend natural gas forced air over electric baseboard heat. You'll save your tenants money, which will reduce turnover(which will save you money.)
Just think about it- what will you say when a tenant texts you around Christmas with a picture of their $500 heating bill? And won't that impact their ability to pay you rent? By going with natural gas, you get happier residents. And I'm opposed to the natural gas space heat that some suggest- it can cause long-term, low-level carbon monoxide exposure. That may have health consequences for your residents years down the road(recent research shows.)
Upstate New York and electric baseboard , the electric bill will be more than the rent
Hi guys I am similar project. Doing a rehab upstate New York were there is no utility line for natural gas. I thought of the following.
* Spray-foam attic space for cut down on heat lost; 35% of heat is lost through attic.
* Install electric heat in 900 sqf 2 bedroom home.
* Install supplemental Woodstove in living room.
a)Alternative idea - forget about the woodstove and install a heat pump ductless unit instead.
Idea behind replacing the oil furnace is avoid having the copper lines risking freezing during very cold winters, not having to worry about oil delivery and possible spills and overall it simplifies maintenance of the unit and make it more appealing with central cooling and heating. Your thoughts?
Hi @Norbin Cruz
The spray foam is a great idea(as long as it’s not so tight that moisture can’t escape the house.) I have oil heat in an upstate house with an outdoor tank- I switch to kerosene deliveries for the months of December-March, kerosene won’t freeze and mixes well with typical fuel oil.
I’ve wanted to install a heat pump for awhile, but management points out that they don’t know how to repair it when it breaks, so I’ve held back on that. If you go that way, I’d make sure a professional installs it and that you have a warranty which stipulates something about the repair time in the event of it breaking(in the dead of winter. On New Year’s Eve. When it’s 10 degrees below zero.) Maybe have a backup baseboard electric heater or two in case the repair takes a day or two.