Why BRRRR is dead....

Why BRRRR is dead....

Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes

Every time someone calls me and says: hey, I am an OOS investor and want to BRRRR in Milwaukee, I cringe. An investor friendly agent is supposed to be excited and send them a list of deals, right? Or tell the truth??

The great days of BRRRR are gone. 

The compression of inventory over the last 10 years has gradually restricted the discounts on the buying side. If inventory is low and competition is high, properties in poor condition will sell for almost as much as properties in great condition. For a good BRRRR you need at least half off ARV, that means buying a 200k home for 100k and fixing it for under 50, that is just not realistic anymore. It will sell for 185k as is to a first time home buyer with a handy family, who has no idea how much time and money it will eventually cost him to complete a full gut rehab.

I know, because I have been BRRRR-ing in Milwaukee since before Brandon Turner coined the term. Deals (by text book standards, full cash recycle) have gone from almost everywhere to complete unicorns. The days of "free-vesting" are gone, we are back to in-vesting, which requires capital.

People are still telling me it works, but when you look closer, they cheat themselves by patching a roof instead of replacing it, installing a new kitchen, but not the replacing plumbing, to save on expenses. Or you go into D neighborhoods and tell yourself it is a class C. 

Rehab and value add will always be a thing, I have 2 projects in the works now and rents will be higher after, but you can pretty much strike the last R in BRRRR: a full repeat with the same cash is not going to happen, especially if home prices start going sideways.

18Reply
180 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
3y

BRRRR days are not gone, a BRRRR is only as good as the deal you find. If you don't find the deal you can't do it. Just because there aren't 10 sitting on the market right now doesn't mean you can't find it

See this reply in the discussion

62 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Marcus Auerbach There must be at least some properties out there that are cheap enough still...what with prices dropping (in some areas)?

    Or could this be area specific?


     Good question. Milwaukee does have some areas with ultra cheap properties, but even when you fix them up they are not worth much and really hard to sell. You can see this very easily when you look at days on market. And the areas that are in demand, especially by first time home buyers 200k-350k, have so much competition that even project houses sell way over list price. First time home buyers overpay, because they have unrealistic expecatations on how it will cost and how much work it actually is to fix a house. They think a few weekends with the help of their handy uncle will do it. 

    It's not a matter of cheap enough, it's a matter of enough spread between what you pay for it and ARV. We used to have a great segment where you could buy properties for under 130k that would be worth over 200k when all fixed up. You don't find these spreads anymore, disregarding outliers of course.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Marcus Auerbach There must be at least some properties out there that are cheap enough still...what with prices dropping (in some areas)?

    Or could this be area specific?

    It's not a matter of cheap enough, it's a matter of enough spread between what you pay for it and ARV. We used to have a great segment where you could buy properties for under 130k that would be worth over 200k when all fixed up. You don't find these spreads anymore, disregarding outliers of course.


    The difficulty of finding spread between ARV and the original purchase cost is everywhere and not just in Milwaukee. That's also I think the less riskiest rehab project is actually in a better neighborhood/higher price home. I calculate at a given time, from all total MLS listing in my area, there're 10-15 potential houses that met below 75% ARV. But after reading the property inspection,etc,etc. Only 10% of that houses are worth seeing directly and placing a bid. There're many times where 'broken house' is relatively more expensive than a move-in ready house. Maybe it's cheaper to build a new house there rather than fixing a 1930 house.

  • Investor · Kansas City · Member since 2023 · 70 posts · 62 votes
    3y

    Hey Marcus great topic. 

    If I'm being honest with you, I only think this is partially true. I live and invest here in Kansas City and the last three projects my wife and I have done were all successful BRRRR's.

    One thing I will say is it's getting harder. Harder to find good contractors, harder to find the right property, etc. We do a lot of the work ourselves which definitely gives us an advantage. I see it this way: even if I have to leave 10k into my project when going to refinance, that's still a cash-flowing asset for a grand total of $10,000. 

    The property we are working on right now will be that way. When we refinance we will likely have to leave about $7500 into the property. But in my opinion, spending only $7500 on a cash-flowing asset is worth it in my eyes. What do you think?

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:

    What is a poor policy? BRRRR as a strategy?

    No...I meant - it is not because of it's policies, it's the market....
    Gotcha, and yeah, I agree. Particularly the Federal Reserve but also the government in general too
  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    @Andrew Syrios possibly, but a critical component to BRRRR is a market with at least 4 to 6 months of inventory. In such a market buyers have choices and will buy nice places, which forces sellers of dilapidated properties to accept a discount. There are no discounts for condition anymore! We have about half a month of inventory in Milwaukee and literally everything is seller with multiple offers.

    "Fix and rent" will never be dead, but the days of 25% equity gain and infinite cash recycle are gone I am afraid, at lease until we are caught up with the housing shortage.


     I don't really agree with that. Even in low inventory market, there are good deals to be had. It's the same with flipping. Even tight markets have flipping opportunities. And both are aided by prices appreciating. 

    Of course, in this market there's no appreciation (a bit of the opposite in fact), relatively low inventory and terrible interest rates, so it doesn't work now (at least not very often) but it will be back sooner or later


    Nothing is impossible, we are speaking in general terms. With what specifically do you not agree? That low inventory makes junk sell for too much money? Or the notion that in a normal market buyers will choose move in ready properties over project houses? 

    Or let me ask you this: how many BRRRR's have you found for 50% of ARV in the last years? Because the best I see is about 20%, so with 30% rehab you are 10% over ARV. I can see that you have somewhat of a different perspective: KC has currently a list to sale ratio of 97.1% while Milwaukee is at 101.7%, so you have a slightly better market there.


     I think I mostly just meant they will come back. They are gone for now but not forever (which admittedly isn't really what you said, I think I misread it a bit)

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    @Marcus Auerbach

    they just covered this on the latest BP podcast.  finally =)

    I've probably said this in other threads, but I'll do lower or even 0 cashflow for more equity.  but I'm in a position to do that - I'm not a new investor with $9,042 to my name, looking for a home run on my first deal to change my life.

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nicholas L.:

    @Marcus Auerbach

    they just covered this on the latest BP podcast.  finally =)

    I've probably said this in other threads, but I'll do lower or even 0 cashflow for more equity.  but I'm in a position to do that - I'm not a new investor with $9,042 to my name, looking for a home run on my first deal to change my life.


    ..and that makes still a great investment, but you need money to invest in the first place! The whole magic of BRRRR was in the last R, which is repeat and basically generate infinite return by recycling the same down payment over and over. And that's not happening anymore, excluding outliers.

    Cash flow has been overhyped anyway. REI is not an ATM. It takes more time that most of us have to generate a million in cash flow @200 net per door. But it's not that hard to generate a million in equity if you give it 7-10 years.

    Milwaukee has old inventory, 80% of housing is either 60 or 120 years old. My bank has asked me if I am still happy with a total cost of 105% of ARV, but a full reset on the lifespan clock of all major components is worth it, especially when you look at a 10 or 20 year performance and you have no major capex to budget for.

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y

    @Andrew Syrios for sure! Eventually it will, but I think I might be invested in DST's the next time BRRRR comes around ;-)

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    @Marcus Auerbach

    agreed on all fronts.  I'm in Pittsburgh.  old inventory, tough rehabs.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2020 · 39 posts · 32 votes
    3y

    The financing has been my hardest issue. I'm still finding great deals with distressed properties that hit all of my numbers. And like others, I'm OK if I get ~95% or more of my money back as it means that I didn't put 25% down on an upgraded property. But I've had to go to DSCR lending which is OK, but the origination costs are greatly more than what I'm used to paying. So that now needs to be factored into my numbers.

    Pivoting and adjusting criteria is what we all have to do as market changes.  Some strategies work better than others right now.  I'm still doing BRRRRs as long as I'm confident of getting the money back out.  

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    @Andrew Syrios for sure! Eventually it will, but I think I might be invested in DST's the next time BRRRR comes around ;-)


    OK, we're in agreement. Good to know! (Although I haven't delved into the DST thing so I can't really comment on that.)

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Andrew Syrios:
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    @Andrew Syrios for sure! Eventually it will, but I think I might be invested in DST's the next time BRRRR comes around ;-)


    OK, we're in agreement. Good to know! (Although I haven't delved into the DST thing so I can't really comment on that.)


    DST is a possible exit strategy and stands for Delaware Statutory Trust: you can buy into one with a 1031, it owns real estate but is an entirely passive investment.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.