BRRRR = BRRSRR Thoughts

BRRRR = BRRSRR Thoughts

Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes

Hi BP,

I’d like to generate a fresh thread to address an issue that is catching many new investors by surprise: The 6-month Seasoning period.

I'm now on my 3rd Rental. It was time to give the BRRRR strategy a try. I purchased my first multi-family property property - a duplex - with cash. Rehab is under way (also cash) and it is looking great at 45 days. Time to get cash-out refinancing lined up, now at about 45 days out from completion - and hopefully tenant occupancy.

Enter the 6-month Seasoning requirement. For a new investor, this "S" really came as a surprise on my first BRRRR deal. It was just a bit of a left hook for me to learn about how Fannie & Freddie require 6 months on title before funding a cash out refinance, particularly on an investment property. I have since put in a fair amount of hours trying to track down options, such as local and national portfolio lenders (which always seem to be at a higher APR), I've learned a bit about delayed financing, and I've had a few conversations with hard money lenders, which doesn't seem to be the best way to go this time being that I did already have the cash upfront to make this project possible.

I’m hoping that we can generate some new perspectives on this issue in today’s market, particularly with the onset Coronavirus issue now entering into market conditions. (Maybe this is a non-issue?) Or perhaps there is a podcast (or other BP posts) that I missed that goes into more details on this issue. I enjoyed reading @Brandon Turner’s book, but it strikes me that this issue is reasonably important and doesn’t receive as much attention as it could use.

For a relatively green investor without a large amount of capital on hand, BRRRR-ing 2 properties per year seems like a slow way to get out of the starting gate, albeit perhaps one of the safest ways to get going.

In my specific situation, I can certainly carry the property for the full 6-months on title that is required by most lenders to get the best cash out refinancing options available. But is that really the best way to proceed in my current situation? What other advice would you suggest when it's time to move onto my next BRRRR deal? I really enjoy rolling up my sleeves and doing the work, but I could use some advice making some important decisions now and in the future.

Thanks BP world. BP Rocks!

Alan, investing in Colorado

6Reply
101 views

Most Popular Reply

Kenneth GarrettPro Member
Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6y

@Alan Mills

You could refinance using commercial lending.  There is no seasoning required.  The interest rate is higher and you have to own it an entity.   The interest rate might be 1% higher, but you can refinance whenever your ready.  If your trying to get your money out ASAP this is one method.  You can still rent it right away.  Take the cashflow and bank it till your ready on the refinance or put it in your pocket.  

See this reply in the discussion

55 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Joseph CacciapagliaBusiness Member
    Lender · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Mills:

    @Joseph Cacciapaglia

    Well stated on many points. I did have a lender set up who did confirm for me that he could get me 75% cash out refinance on the property prior to purchasing it. So I did check that box ahead of time. The question that this novice investor didn't know to ask what is the topic of this string: "S" = 6-month Seasoning. Alas, I know I will get this property rented quickly as rentals are in high demand in this market. So, worst case scenario is that I simply get the property rented and use the cash flow to sustain payments against my HELOC (The source of my cash funds for both purchase and rehab) for another 3 months until seasoning is complete, And then I start shopping around for a Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac conventional loan on the cash out refinance. I really appreciate your knowledge regarding that most people using theBRRRR strategy are using Hardmoney lenders for both a purchase and rehab costs. I didn't realize that that was the best way to go, but will certainly be looking to investigate those options on my next deal. Thank you for that!

     It sounds like your lender really let you down. Knowing you were new to this, the lender should have taken the time to explain the process, and let you know any of the common hiccups. I know not all lenders will do this, but many of the best ones will. It's the job of all real estate service providers to educate there clients. There is no real way for you to know what you don't know. You should be able to expect to tell your agent, lender, attorney, etc. what it is you're planning to do, and they should be happy to take the time to explore your options and describe any potential pitfalls. With lenders specifically, I find that mortgage brokers/bankers tend to be much more savvy about this sort of thing than most people working at a call center at a big bank. I know I have a few go to lenders that I run every scenario by, before taking the first step. 

    Joseph Cacciapaglia powered by Morty
  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Whitney Hutten

    Woa. Anyone who is stumbling across this post, please take the time to listen to Whitney’s podcast and read her articles. I just sent you a private message also Whitney. Wow.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @James Wise

    Excellent. Do you think I will be able to find conventional lenders with competitive fixed rates under the six-month seasoning requirement. I’ve only contacted about six conventional lenders thus far, but they all seem to be trained to tell me that I can’t do anything until I have had six months on title. I can keep reaching out, but it seems like it’s pretty rare to find one in Colorado.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Christopher Park

    Thank you Christopher. Please look for my personal message as a follow up.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Patrick Menefee

    Nice. I agree, I am working hard to quickly expand my relationships. There’s so many facets of the industry that create successes for so many people in so many ways. I appreciate your thoughts, and I will continue to try to find others to build win-win situations moving forward.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Pete Storseth

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Joseph Cacciapaglia

    Please look for my private message.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Mills:

    @James Wise

    Excellent. Do you think I will be able to find conventional lenders with competitive fixed rates under the six-month seasoning requirement. I’ve only contacted about six conventional lenders thus far, but they all seem to be trained to tell me that I can’t do anything until I have had six months on title. I can keep reaching out, but it seems like it’s pretty rare to find one in Colorado.

     No need to limit your search to Colorado. Many of the more aggressive lenders are regional or national.

  • High Desert, CA · Member since 2019 · 319 posts · 161 votes
    6y

    Hey @Kenneth Garrett  can you give an example of commercial loan financing. 

    Like when I hear of that I think SBA loans and Commercial lending for big apartment buildings. 

    Are you saying there is commercial lending for single family residence? Just trying to clarify. 

  • High Desert, CA · Member since 2019 · 319 posts · 161 votes
    6y

    And I totally get why you added that S @Alan Mills

    This is something Brandon and David do not talk about. But that is another reason why everyone is not doing it. 

    Also congrats on the investment property in Pueblo. I actually just closed on a property out there yesterday, first investment property in CO., so this will be unique and different. 

    I was going to fly out there, but with all this madness going on, well looks like that is a no go. But I have systems in place. 

  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Trevor Aydelott

    Yes you can use commercial loans for single family homes and 2, 3 and 4 unit buildings. They will require 2-3 years of tax returns, fill out a financial statement, must own the property in an entity (I use LLC), copy of your operating agreement, is the LLC in good standing with your state, copy of a current tenant lease, credit report (they will run this, but they are more interested in the property cash flowing), DSCR of 1.25 or better.

    You will pay a higher interest rate around 1%. The mortgage will not show up in your credit report as the mortgage is in the LLC name. No impact to your DTI.

    It’s as an alternative to your residential loan.

  • Rental Property Investor · Woodstock, GA · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @Kenneth Garrett love that it doesn't impact your personal DTI. With owning the property in an LLC. Will the bank be expecting tax returns and documentation from your LLC?

  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Amber Golson

    LLC's are a flow through account on your taxes. Schedule E is used on your personal return for your rental properties. Have a CPA prepare your return so you can take advantage of the tax advantages. Other online sources are not thorough enough.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Alan Mills:


    I’d like to generate a fresh thread to address an issue that is catching many new investors by surprise: The 6-month Seasoning period.

    Yep, been saying this for a long time. BRRSRR just isn't as cute.

    Full transparency would be BRRSFPSR   for seasoning,  fees, pain and suffering.  Nothing easy about qualifying for most.  45 days of paperwork.

    As far as over-sophisticating houses with LLCs for the privilege of commercial financing,  I'll share my experiences.  Commercial loans are a pain and much higher risk.  They require you to report your financials to them every year and a committee reviews your loan every 5 years to decide whether to call it or not. This decision is completely out of your control and depends on the banks' health, goals, anxiety and appetite for your type of loan at that moment.  

    Some Commercial loans like with US Bank just expire every 5 years, requiring you to get underwritten for a new loan and the longest term is generally 20 years.  

    But at least the rate is only 20-30% higher.  The rate is also adjustable every 5 years. And you sign for them personally. Generally speaking 5/5/20. Callable, adjustable. 

    Or...you could treat your RE like the long game it is and simply wait 6-12 months.  Of the half dozen or so I've done, I haven't bothered with the refi except once.  By the time it's seasoned, the cashflow has restocked my dry powder but YMMV.  

    Be patient or maybe find a good portfolio lender in a community bank or CU. 

  • Investor · Queens, NY · Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    @Alan Mills there are other lenders who only require a 3 month seasoning.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
    Originally posted by @Alan Mills:

    Or...you could treat your RE like the long game it is and simply wait 6-12 months.  Of the half dozen or so I've done, I haven't bothered with the refi except once.  By the time it's seasoned, the cashflow has restocked my dry powder but YMMV.  

    This is what I was going to say! Not surprised you said it first Steve. 

    Why do you need the money out this fast? It doesn't seem like you have a super low margin play where you need high velocity or have investors breathing down your neck and the few basis point will help retnetion. 

    At least to me, this seems like the juice isn't worth the squeeze; getting the equity out 3-4 months early to just sit in a bank account earning .05% interest seems silly and the longer you wait the higher the chance your own purchase won't be used as a comp. 

  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    I find commercial loans easier to work with then the cavity search residential loans make you go through. Yes they are generally 5 year loans.  I just refinanced my 5 year loan took 5 minutes with the bank.  Filled out a financial statement and forwarded last years tax returns.  It’s a very easy process.  Work with your local community banks as they want your business compared to the large banks who require to much red tape.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kenneth Garrett:

    I find commercial loans easier to work with then the cavity search residential loans make you go through. Yes they are generally 5 year loans.  I just refinanced my 5 year loan took 5 minutes with the bank.  Filled out a financial statement and forwarded last years tax returns.  It’s a very easy process.  Work with your local community banks as they want your business compared to the large banks who require to much red tape.

    So just like the seasoning surprise, commercial loans have a 5yr surprise.  All you mentioned before was a higher rate.

    Annual financial reporting and 20yr payment schedules are another surprise.  All fine if disclosed and understood, but this is a thread about surprises.  

  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Steve Vaughan

    I appreciate your input on the commercial loans. Each lender has different criteria. I have been able to acquire 5 year loans at 80% LTV at 25 year amortization. The commercial loan vehicle is just an alternative to funding your rental properties. You will always receive a better rate on the residential side. For those whose DTI is greatly impacted and/or credit has taken a hit for scaling, the commercial is an option. All investors should conduct there due diligence with funding with the same detail as on the purchase side.

  • Investor · SF Bay area · Member since 2019 · 19 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    @Alan Mills

    I know a private lending broker who might be able to help. You’ll have to reach out to confirm he can do business in your market, but at least in Columbus, Ohio I believe he was saying no seasoning period required.

    Of course, this is not a Fannie/Freddie loan. So you’re likely looking at higher rates. Still, I would get in touch and see what he can offer.

    PM me if you’d like contact info.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Steve Vaughan

    Woa. Thanks for chiming in with all of your experience on these issues. This is a lot for me to unpack and I just. Really appreciate it!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Ruben Izgelov

    Please see my private message

  • Rental Property Investor · Delray Beach, FL · Member since 2017 · 102 posts · 44 votes
    6y

    Commercial and portfolio lenders are an option as others have mentioned.

    To answer your question about scaling:

    Delayed financing CAN be used in the future to get your $ back soon after rehab with a conventional loan. This requires a knowledgeable lender and title company. You can have the title co include the rehab costs on your closing/HUD statement and direct them how/when to disburse it to your contractor(s). Then you can cash our refi based on the appraised value, up to 100% of what is on your original HUD statement (as long as that puts you at 75% LTV or less; dont quote me on that percent but I believe its correct).

    There is a BP podcast where this is talked about. Female guest, from a while back but I don't remember the # or her name.  Also Alexander Felice talks about it on his blog.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Bill F.

    See my private message for more information. But for others following along who are also interested in learning, I am looking to discuss the bigger overall picture on this matter. First off, it was unexpected. If you’re just starting out, and don’t have a lot of capital like myself, I am essentially looking at a six month waiting period between projects, which is two deals per year. It just seems like a very slow way to get the train moving forward. There is a lot of other useful information in this string, so I have a lot more legwork to do to find out about alternative money options. I’ve read about all of them along before I put up this post, but it is still a bit daunting to gain enough confidence to try other purchasing and financing options. I’m sure I will get there sooner or later.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CO (colorado) · Member since 2019 · 73 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    @Brian Dickerson Please see my private message

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.