Diary of a Rental Property

Diary of a Rental Property

J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

I had a blast writing my Diary of a New Construction Project thread, and the feedback I got from that was great. So, I've decided to try another one...this time tracking and discussing the ongoing saga of a rental property that I'm in the process of buying, rehabbing and renting out.

A few details about this project and thread:

  • I'm not a professional landlord, and while I've had a couple rental properties in the past, they were all short-term and relatively turn-key (I didn't have to do much for the short time I owned them). This time, I'm looking to hold some properties longer-term, and the one I will be discussing in this thread will be my first longer-term property.
  • Because I expect this to be a longer-term hold, I expect this thread could continue for a quite a while. Obviously, I won't have stuff to post everyday (especially once the house is rehabbed and in service), but I'll try to follow-through for as long as possible, and hopefully until the end of the project, whenever that is.
  • I really have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to holding long-term rentals, so I'm guessing this thread will be more of a "what not to do" thread, as opposed to a "what to do" thread. That said, I'm open to all constructive critique, and hopefully advice, opinions and feedback I get in this thread will actually help me to be more successful.
  • I will, of course, post as much detail about the project as feasible, without risking giving away anything inappropriate about tenants, etc. I'll try to provide all documents, invoices, pictures, budgets, schedules and financials down-to-the-penny, so everyone will know just how well (or how badly) this project goes. Maybe we'll even get some insight into the "50% Rule" while tracking a real life project.
  • I have a partner on this project. It's a good friend of mine, and I'll likely be referring to him throughout the thread. Let's call him "Brian"...which makes sense, since that's his name.
  • This "diary" is going to start in the past, when I first found the house. I've been keeping notes in anticipation of starting this thread, and I imagine I'll be caught up to real-time in the next couple weeks. But, you'll notice that the dates on the first several posts will be in the past, and that's why.

Please feel free to ask any questions, provide any advice or give any opinions throughout the thread. I may not listen to all of them, but I always appreciate the feedback.

Now, on to the thread...

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Brandon TurnerPro Member
Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y

Looking forward to following along J! Now you are playing in my world! :)

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  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    The first showing was someone I liked -- she's been in her current place for 8 years and showed me pictures (assuming the pictures were really her place, she obviously kept it in great shape). She did have a couple red flags:

    1. I asked her several times if she had notified her landlord that she was moving. Each time she said yes. Then, when I indicated I was going to call her landlord and asked once again if she had given notice, she said, "Well, I haven't, but I plan to tell him on Monday morning. Please don't call before then."

    In my area, they can only move on the first. In her case, if she gives notice on Monday, the soonest she could move would be June 1. Not sure if your area is like that as well, but that's a long time to have it sit empty hoping she doesn't find something else, get hit by a bus, overdose, etc.

    I would hold out for someone better. It's always amazing in this business that you can have a string of losers show up and bum you out, only to have a winner call you in a day or two.

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
    12y

    the RTA form is not completely blank. Usually her info is already inputted by sec8. Importantly, her bedroom count. (Aka, your money) . This is the form given to a potential tenant meaning that they are approved to move by their voucher program. If they don't have it physically in their hand. Don't bother showing them your property. Like that one lady who said she hasn't yet told her landlord she's leaving, if she came with an RTA, guess what? It's BS. The RTA is something she copied and/or produced, sec8 won't issue one without previous landlord signing off....in other words, that lady may be moving, but her voucher ain't going nowhere...not yet anyway. That's when you say "come back when you have your RTA in hand"

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    the RTA form is not completely blank. Usually her info is already inputted by sec8. Importantly, her bedroom count. (Aka, your money) .

    Interesting. And great info...thanks Seth!

    At least one of the people yesterday had a completely blank one (I studied it because I knew I was supposed to ask for it). I guess she got a blank form somewhere, and doesn't yet have the "real" one.

    Good to know for the future...

  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 44 posts · 14 votes
    12y

    @J Scott:

    Fantastic blog. Very educational. Do it again.

    I've looked at some of the analysis forms you referenced in FilePlace. Great work. Very organized. I'm an excel junkie; use it a lot at work, so kudos.

    This has been fun to read! Especially someone looking to get out of the 6-5 grind and build a second career in the next 5 years that doesn't tie me to a desk.

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    @J Scott:

    Baltimore investor here, buying my 1st property in Parkville (the county). Would you mind if I gave you a call? We are both new to rentals and I have been hitting the grind building up as much knowledge as possible. My mentor has 4 properties with MBQ and is the #2 realtor in baltimore. I was thinking maybe we could help each other out. My rehab should be starting in a month or so.

    Brian

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
    12y

    @Brian Anderson If he's the "#2 realtor in Baltimore" he probably wouldn't have the time to be very hands on with rentals and being a landlord. In order to be successful, one needs to know everything about everything. Get a landlord by trade to help you out, in my opinion

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    @Seth,

    He is the property manager of all his properties and offers the same service to mine, though I will manage my own until I can't. He is hypomanic in my opinion and works 7 days a week. For each of his tenants, he does a rigorous check to include inspecting their current residence, talking to previous landlords, etc. He also visits the properties periodically throughout the year. I agree that knowing everything about everything is required. I have been consuming all the knowledge I can get. Could you put me in contact with someone that you would recommend? My email is [REMOVED].

    Brian

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
    12y

    @Brian Anderson

    ...first, in order to do the @someone thing...start typing @ whomever and you will see it appear at the bottom of the screen, then click on it.

    second, not very difficult to manage 4 properties. what exactly are you attempting to accomplish with rental properties, primarily?

  • Investor · DMV Maryland · Member since 2013 · 867 posts · 370 votes
    12y

    @J Scott

    @Account Closed

    I may have missed it above but what is "RTA"?

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Christina R.:
    @J Scott

    @Account Closed

    I may have missed it above but what is "RTA"?

    Request for Tenancy Approval

    It's the form section 8 tenants get one they're formally approved and ready to find a unit.

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    @Account Closed

    I am attempting to create residual income to retire.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    APRIL 8, 2014: UPDATE ON TENANT SHOWINGS

    I've had several other contacts from interested Section 8 tenants over the past couple days, including two that I may show the property to later in the week. Most of the prospects either don't yet have their RTA in hand or haven't formally given notice to their current landlord, and I won't show the property until both of those are completed.

    I've been working with the first woman I mentioned in my previous update -- the woman who has been in her current place for the past 8 years and is looking to move from the city to the county. I had four big concerns (that I listed on the previous page), and here is where each stands:

    1. She finally notified her current landlord today that she's moving out. I haven't called him yet, but will be calling him tomorrow.

    2. Turns out MBQ is a perfectly valid HUD placement organization, specializing in getting tenants from rough parts of town to better parts of town. It's run by HUD, so it's essentially the same as Section 8, but with a few of their own rules. They have already approved this tenant to move to the location of my townhouse, so that issue is resolved.

    3. Turns out the tenant was only approved for a 2-bedroom unit, and while she can legally move into my 3-bedroom unit, the maximum allowable rent would be $1400. I'm currently asking $1450, so I'd have to drop the rent $50/month, but my target was $1400, so that's not a huge issue.

    4. I still need to find out about her work commute and whether this move would put an undue burden on her. I don't want her leaving in a year. We are scheduled to chat again tomorrow.

    I'm not sure if I'm going to move forward with this tenant (assuming the rest of the background checks pan out), but I haven't ruled her out. I'm interested in speaking with her current landlord, her current boss and getting more information about the reasoning behind her relocation.

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks for the update! How much would they pay for a three bedroom voucher?

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    ...

    3. Turns out the tenant was only approved for a 2-bedroom unit, and while she can legally move into my 3-bedroom unit, the maximum allowable rent would be $1400. I'm currently asking $1450, so I'd have to drop the rent $50/month, but my target was $1400, so that's not a huge issue.

    ...

    The only thing that matters is the net paid to the landlord, after tenant paid utilities are taken into account. That 2 BR voucher could net you less than what you're looking for.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    ...

    3. Turns out the tenant was only approved for a 2-bedroom unit, and while she can legally move into my 3-bedroom unit, the maximum allowable rent would be $1400. I'm currently asking $1450, so I'd have to drop the rent $50/month, but my target was $1400, so that's not a huge issue.

    ...

    The only thing that matters is the net paid to the landlord, after tenant paid utilities are taken into account. That 2 BR voucher could net you less than what you're looking for.

    Not sure I understand. According to the prospective tenant, MBQ would pay up to $910/month and the tenant would be allowed to pay up to $490/month.

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    ...
    3. Turns out the tenant was only approved for a 2-bedroom unit, and while she can legally move into my 3-bedroom unit, the maximum allowable rent would be $1400. I'm currently asking $1450, so I'd have to drop the rent $50/month, but my target was $1400, so that's not a huge issue.

    ...

    The only thing that matters is the net paid to the landlord, after tenant paid utilities are taken into account. That 2 BR voucher could net you less than what you're looking for.

    Not sure I understand. According to the prospective tenant, MBQ would pay up to $910/month and the tenant would be allowed to pay up to $490/month.

    I think this is one of the things that might be different in different regions or by the PHA that administers the program in the area.

    In a couple of my places I happened to rent 2 out to different section 8 tenants within about 2 weeks of each other. Same basic unit and got the same rent for both. They were both condos and for one my HOA fee covers heat and hot water and in the other it doesn't.

    The one that didn't have it included did end up getting utilities assistance from some other program after establishing tenancy and getting nailed with a $450 electric bill (doesn't even have good heat) but that was totally separate from the section 8 stuff.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y

    @J Scott - in my area the housing authority issues a HOUSING voucher, not a rent voucher. The voucher is supposed to cover housing expenses other than rent in addition to the rent. The Housing Authority won't give a landlord the utility allowance sheet, but the tenants can get it from their caseworker. One of the reasons I don't rent my units with built-in AC to Section 8 is that there is a reduction in net to landlord for electricity needed to operate the AC, whereas tenants paying for the whole thing will pay more for that same unit with built-in AC.

    It might differ where you are, but I would get the tenant to find out from the caseworker what you as landlord will actually get paid (the net amount as I referred to it here). And to bring supporting docs like the income calculation and utility allowances.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    April 12: Update on Tenant Screenings

    Turns out that the tenant I sorta liked was only approved up to $1400, including utility allowance (as Steve alluded to above). While I would have been fine with $1400 in rent, this means I actually would have only gotten about $1200-1250 after utilities were accounted for. So, unfortunately I needed to cut her loose.

    I've been getting more response the past days, and most of them don't have their RTA in-hand yet, so I'm telling them to call me back when they have it. I have a few showings scheduled over the next few days.

    I did meet with one prospective tenant today. Baltimore City is demolishing her current rental and is paying her housing costs for the next couple years (or something like that -- I'd need to investigate further). She is qualified up to $1800/month, so we'll see if she's interested and if she fills out an app, I'll start investigating.

    If I were experienced with Section 8, I'd probably be annoyed that I don't have someone yet, but given this is a learning experience, I'm fine to drag it out a couple more weeks and find someone who is qualified and whom I'm comfortable with.

    I'm going to list it non-Section 8 this week as well, and see if there is any interest there...

  • Rental Property Investor · Annapolis, MD · Member since 2014 · 214 posts · 140 votes
    12y

    @J Scott

    I don't know if anyone advised you yet on how to find quality long term Sec8 or Voucher Tenants? Here is how we do it:

    As soon as we have found a family/single mom with kids who has their paperwork ready and is qualified for enough rent for our unit, (example.: 3 BR voucher for for our 3 Br house) than the next thing we do is we surprise visit the applicants the next day.

    Many of the potential applicant live in slums with slumlord (un) managed properties and would like to improve their lives with a better property and neighborhood BUT what we are looking for in the family is those who maintains the house reasonable clean on the inside. How do they take care of their current place? Obviously if we surprise someone, we will not get perfect place but what really care about: Are the cabinets, toilet bowl, kitchen floor tub reasonable clean? Do they use vacuum cleaner? (some don't because it broke down, but the family have a brand new 50" tv) Visiting the family you will get a sense of how the kids behave in their own comfortable environment.

    So out of all the folks came to see your place, say If you visit two family with the cleanest car interiors, (not the newest one, but rather the cleanest interior etc) You will be able to find your "A+" tenant.

    Folks who maintain a reasonable good level of clean apartment/house, will most likely take care of your place if you do! And they stay as long as you need them! We had one single mom stayed for 10 years! Just imagine zero vacancy for 10 Years :)

    Good Luck to you!

    Ps We don't have many Sec8/voucher units, as we mostly have market tenants BUT we have experience with them because they are perfect match for units with odd layouts or for small units!

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Val Csontos:

    As soon as we have found a family/single mom with kids who has their paperwork ready and is qualified for enough rent for our unit, (example.: 3 BR voucher for for our 3 Br house) than the next thing we do is we surprise visit the applicants the next day.

    Great advice, Val...thank you! I've heard this from many Section 8 landlords recently...all of whom seem to have their act together. Sounds like this is one of the big "secrets" to finding good tenants...

    Thanks again!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Annapolis, MD · Member since 2014 · 214 posts · 140 votes
    12y

    There are no real "secrets" just some observations over time :)

    Speaking of secrets, may be we could meet one of these days for lunch? I will have some free time starting late next week. I will send you Pm.

    regards

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Val Csontos:
    There are no real "secrets" just some observations over time :)

    Speaking of secrets, may be we could meet one of these days for lunch? I will have some free time starting late next week. I will send you Pm.

    Yup, that's why I always put "secrets" in quotes... :-)

    Shoot me an email (see my sig)...things are crazy busy these days, but we can probably figure something out...you're not too far away...

  • Rental Property Investor · Annapolis, MD · Member since 2014 · 214 posts · 140 votes
    12y

    @J Scott

    @J Scott I had a little more time to look back and read the start of this thread. I was just wondering something. You told us via this thread that this time with your RE investment project, you are in it for the "marathon" and not for the "sprint", and i see, you live in Howard Co., is there any reason why not to look for houses there?

    I had found over the years (by accident since I had no idea what I was doing back in the 90s) that areas with the best schools make the best long term investment properties.

    My real "wakeup call was " in 2007, when I was talking to other investors from the Baltimore city/County, and they had told me their homes went down to the same price as they purchased those properties 15 20 year ago) Some of the houses they purchased ten years ago for low $60s, are now 5-6 year later worth in the mid $60s $70s at the same time I purchased some of my properties out here in the AA County(HO county is the same or better) for low$100s and they worth low $300s now.

    Obviously there are exemptions based on neighborhoods etc,, and my statements are a sort of generalization. But in my view the point of long term rental is to "seat on" a low risk property which we can "cash in" just about anytime even during a low economic cycle and reword ourselves for our efforts times.

    . I know some might say that it is almost impossible to find deals out here in the great areas, but in my view with some patience and with the knowledge of the area you can find some really nice deals. And when you look back in a few years, does it really matter that it toke you a few weeks or even a few months longer, if your property worth $100s of thousands more and is a lot more immune to the economy's ups and downs. Also rents better sometimes with waiting lists :)

    By the way another advantage of investing in HO county that the quality of tenants has been shown an increase over the years as the "flakes" has been continuously priced out of the area and tend to be moving towards Baltimore County, Glen Burnie etc...and this trend with tenants seems to continue for the foreseeable future as BRAC, Cyber Security, Verizon and other project are bringing more jobs into our area etc.

    Please take this as a constructive and positive commenting, to your thread and Good Luck to guys for your long term project, I hope it works out for you and your partner! :)

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Val Csontos:
    @J Scott

    @J Scott I had a little more time to look back and read the start of this thread. I was just wondering something. You told us via this thread that this time with your RE investment project, you are in it for the "marathon" and not for the "sprint", and i see, you live in Howard Co., is there any reason why not to look for houses there?


    My business model for rental properties isn't appreciation, it's cash flow. While appreciation is nice, it can't be predicted -- the fact that your properties tripled over 10 years is great, but it's not a business model and there's no reason to believe values will continue to appreciate above any national averages. For example, if you would have looked at some of the more expensive parts of Las Vegas and Atlanta back in 2006, you would have seen prices appreciating at a similar pace (doubling every few years), but as we saw in 2008-2011, that wasn't a long-term bet I would have wanted to make.

    Sure, there are differences between Howard County and other places (the schools are some of the best in the country), but this is public information and I would argue that that just means much of the value is already priced in -- no different that a stock where some "secret" about the company has been leaked.

    That said, it's hard to find houses in Howard County for less than $200K, and even if you can, they aren't going to cash flow very well. I've looked at a lot of houses around here, and best-case, I might make 6-7% in cash flow long-term. Not bad, but for investments where I'm happy to make lower returns with large potential upside, I'd rather put my money in sectors other than real estate (and I do).

    The rentals I plan to buy will cash flow at least 15% COC. They likely won't appreciate much, but again, that's not my goal with these investments. My goal is capital preservation (low risk investments) with very decent cash flow.

    I'm not ruling out buying rentals in HoCo, AA or MontCo, but at this point, they don't meet the criteria I'm looking for in a longer-term RE investment. Not saying these investments aren't right for other people (for example, they clearly are for you)...they just aren't for me...

  • Rental Property Investor · Annapolis, MD · Member since 2014 · 214 posts · 140 votes
    12y

    @J Scott

    I see now, what you guys are doing, and based on your goals it make perfect sense, to be in that area! You will not get great cash flow with rentals in AA, HO county properties for at least the first couple of years!

    As far as property values in our area, in my view we are way different here from Las Vegas. Vegas heavily relies on discretionary income from the general population where as here we have a very aggressive growth of our local economy that comes to us from all different direction. Years ago the big players had decided that this area has to grow and this is what we had experienced here for decades, now. We have a steady population gain of about 1.1% per year, most obvious reason for this is Jobs. This trend has started in the 80s and has really picked up in the 90s, continues today and is also projected by the US census, to be continued for the next 30 years. As the economy sank elsewhere our area has benefited.

    For example the Base Realigned and Closure Act closed down several Military bases elsewhere in Virginia and in the southern states, and DOD had re-assigned DOD jobs to Ft Meade. Roughly 8-10,000 white collar jobs, and all of them are technology related.(number is conservative and not including the supporting jobs that comes with this much population growth)

    Casino has opened two years ago with about 2-3000 jobs. Verizon is just moving here from Connecticut to Hanover MD about 1500 jobs.(Just had a tenant applicant moving here from CT with that company) This is again not including the local commercial development with about another 6000 positions already opened in past few years, also the hospital capacity has doubled here and in Ho County as well in past few years.

    Just an interesting fact, and you might see similar situation in Baltimore Co. as well if you start renting your properties. This year 3/4 of our tenant applicants just came from out of state! That along would not be so unusual having large number of military population come and go, but these new folks are all civilians! Never been so many before! On the way it is sad because it shows you that some parts of the country is not doing well at all, but is great for this area.

    Have you heard of Tyson's Corner center near Whashington DC? Friend of ours live there telling me that when they moved there in early 90s Town Homes there were $70ks and now they are $8-900K. I think based on the demographic data end the economic indicators for the area, the Anne Arundel Mills Mall area including the Ellicott City, Sykes-ville, Columbia, etc. Jessup,Hanover, Severn, Odenton etc. is experiencing something similar on the long run, does this effect the neighboring counties? You bet! But according to data from MRIS some counties HO,AA benefit more than others.

    Since I am writing you from Annapolis let me finish with some "local language": You have your "anchor pulled and your compass set" so "Happy Sailling" or Happy Investing ! :)

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