Why I'm not a flipper

Why I'm not a flipper

Cory BinsfieldPro Member
Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 156 posts · 194 votes

The other day I grabbed $40,000 tax free from refinancing a duplex that originally started as an ugly duckling. As I was walking out of the closing on my way to the bank, I couldn't help but wonder how a flipper would have fared on this deal.

I'm not telling you this to brag, but to give you perspective from a buy and hold real estate investor who doesn't have a ten thousand dollar course and coaching program to sell you.

I must admit, the allure of flipping has crossed my mind from time to time. Brandon Turner, at Bigger Pockets, calls this the shiny object syndrome.

In other words, your are doing something that works and then you hear about an investor doing something else and start to wonder if you could be doing something better. Pretty soon, your all over the map with different real estate strategies and have nothing to show for it.

Beware of shiny objects people!

Don't get me wrong. I have flipped a few properties back in the early days of my investment career only to find out later that the taxes and time weren't worth the hassle.

In my humble opinion, you can't build true wealth by rapidly buying and selling assets unless you have lots of capital and a unique edge that the market hasn't discovered yet.

Once the market discovers your edge, people pile in and your margins eventually evaporate. This is the nature of the beast called capitalism.

In the stock market, it's called the Efficient Market Hypothesis.

Like Warren Buffett, I trade little if not at all. My holding period is forever. All my time is spent nurturing my little flock of golden geese while waiting for the right deal to come along.

When it shows up, I pounce and attempt to create long term value through strategic renovations, repositioning or savvy management.

Notice how I'm not fighting the market like the typical flipper. I don't have to find a deal to put food on the table and I can patiently wait for the proverbial fat pitch. I'm simply surfing the wave of capitalism while making minor course corrections.

Yea...this is some heavy stuff. Kinda like Yoda trying to teach an impatient Luke Skywalker how to raise a spaceship from a swamp by harnessing the power of the force.

Let's take a look at my ugly duckling deal and compare it to a flipper who creates the exact same golden goose but kills it for a fast buck.

Way back in 2011, the real estate market was licking it's wounds from the Countrywide Mortgage Subprime Hustle. The loan market was slowly beginning to thaw while bankers were hiding under their desks. The only people who could afford to buy were hedge funds and folks with lots of cash on hand and AAA credit.

As luck would have it, my flooring guy told me about a vacant duplex that was in need of major repair and the owner would seller finance for little down. The perfect pitch!

After a quick assessment, I was able to structure a "win-win" deal where the seller would accept $2,100 down and finance the balance of the purchase of $37,000 at 5% for 20 years with a 10 year balloon. The payment worked out to be $245 per month plus taxes and insurance.

I say "win-win" since the banks had shut me out of the market and I could only buy if it was owner financed. Being that I already had eleven conventional loans, I was forced to deal with commercial banks that were simply not lending due to the real estate crisis.

How bad was it? I had two Countrywide loans that were sold to Bank of America and a commercial loan that was sold three different times in two years since the prior originators had went under. One of the lenders was actually Lehman Brothers-go figure!

The seller was delighted since he was sitting on an empty property and would receive steady cash flow without having to lift a finger.

I closed in December 2011 with my favorite title company and started renovating the first unit in January of 2012. It was almost a complete gut job, but I lucked out since the owner had already started the remodel process and most of the materials were already in the unit.

The place needed new flooring, kitchen cabinets, gas boiler, new shower, bath, a serious clean out and lots of paint. The plumbing and electrical were sound and this is why I quickly made an offer after my walk through.

After spending five months on the upper unit, I managed to get my first renter at $700 per month and had my monthly nut covered. I paid the water and garbage and the tenant paid the heat and electric.

Note: The reason the renovation took so long is I have a full time job and I do this on the side. Moreover, I used tradesman that work on the side as well.

Next, I tackled the lower unit and pretty much did the same thing. After four more months, the lower unit was rented in November of 2012 for $750 per month.

Once again, I covered the garbage and water and the tenant paid the rest.

Finally, I was generating some serious cash flow. Combined, I was taking in $1,450 per month in rents less mortgage payments of $245 excluding taxes, insurance, utilities, maintenance and the new gas boiler loan payment.

Here's a breakdown of the calendar years income and expenses from purchase to refinance.

Purchase date December 2011

Upper Unit Annual income: First renter in June 2012 at $700/mo

2012-$4200

2013-$8400

2014-$4200 before rent increase.

Lower Unit Annual Income: Second renter in November 2012 $750/mo

2012 $1500

2013 $9000

2014 $4500

Total cash flow $31,800

Total Expenses from January 2012 to August 2014:

Water -2,040

Garbage -1,200

Property taxes -3,600

Maintenance and repairs -2,120

Total operating expenses $8,960

Net Operating Income (NOI) over 2 years $22,840

Total debt service $7,272 (including new gas boiler loan).

Cash flow after debt service $15,568

How did I pay for renovations you might ask?

I used the cash flow from my real estate portfolio to cover the construction. Total cost for all the renovations spread out over 12 months or so was $29,941. This brought my "all in cost" of the ugly duckling to $69,041.

Based on my market analysis at time of purchase, I figured the property could sell for $110,000. Fortunately, I was a bit too conservative and the market had improved over the next few years.

Still, I live in a market were duplex values have not recovered since the peak of the sub-prime mortgage meltdown.

On August 8, 2014 the appraisal came in at $139,000. I was stunned!

Assuming I could sell it at this price, my total gain (before selling costs) would be $69,959. This is before I factor in the net cash flow from operations (NOI).

Adding in the NOI it looked like this:

Net income from buying and holding since purchase: $15,568

Profit based upon appraisal: $69,959

Total return $85,527

Total investment out of pocket: $31,941 (down payment plus renovations)

Total cash on cash return: 268%

WHAT IF I SOLD AS A FLIP?

Assuming I could renovate and close this deal in 6 months, I would have to hire a contractor to manage the renovations with a time line of 2 months or less.

Let's assume it take six months from acquisition to sale since the average days on market at the time of sale for this type of property was three months in 2012.

Furthermore, let's assume the contractor needs a 20% profit margin to oversee the flip. Adding in this factor to my renovation cost and I'm up to $35,930 for improvements.

Here's the math if I were a professional flipper.

Renovation cost plus purchase price : $72,930

Estimated holding costs (taxes, insurance, utilities, payments ) $3,500

Realtor commission and closing at 8% $11,120

Total cost as a flipper $87,550

Total gain before tax $51,450

But wait......that's before our silent partner with the initials IRS takes his cut.

Short term capital gain tax at 25% $12,863

Self Employment tax at 15.3% $7,872

Total loss to silent partner $20,735

Net profit after tax $30,715

$30,000 in six months is still a sweet deal. The problem is I can't find deals like this day in and day out to create enough income to hit my retirement goal while raising two kids, two dogs AND making sure my lovely girlfriend sticks around.

Throw in a few vacations, college savings, some walking around money and my annual household "nut" is way north of this number.

What happens when I cash that $30,000 check? I have to reinvest most of the money into another deal and do the process all over again.

Worse, the more I succeed as a flipper, the higher my tax rate.

Imagine if I were super successful flipper like some of the BP folks on the podcast. My combined tax rate would jump to 45% to 55% and this would force me to hire more people and reinvest larger and larger sums to keep the operation running smoothly.

Dang...just thinking about this makes me tired. I'd rather be Warren Buffet who manages one of the biggest companies in the world from a drab office in Omaha with a staff of 24 employes.

Oh, he sits around and reads a lot while sipping Cherry Coke. Periodically, he hops on his private jet to appear on CNBC to warn investors not to trade a lot and simply buy the market and surf the wave of capitalism.

Come to think of it, I bet Warren has less staff than some of the largest flippers out there who don't even come close to generating 182 billion in revenue.

Did I mention he is in a lower tax bracket than his assistant who draws a six figure salary?

Let's circle back now and compare my check from the closing to what I would have earned as a short term flipper.

As you may recall, I pulled out $40,000 tax free as a result of my refinance compared to a hypothetical flip profit of $30,000 by refinancing the seller note and furnace loan at 5.5% over 20 years. The new payment is slightly less since I paid off the seller note and the furnace loan.

Yes.....I could have grabbed more, but I wanted to keep the loan to value at 60% or less for strong cash flow.

Over time, I will continue to net about $13,750 per year tax free by keeping it as a buy and hold while the tenants pay all my expenses on the property including the mortgage. If I do sell, I will avoid taxes by simply doing this thing called a tax deferred exchange.

How cool is that?

If I die, my kids get the property at the current market value. All taxes are stepped up and my kids can sell the golden goose or continue collecting passive income.

Take that Mr. IRS!

Best of all, I don't have to wake up everyday and punch the flipper clock to generate another $30,000. I can generate the same income by simply replicating this deal with a couple of more properties.

Yes, I have to manage tenants, field phone calls and lease the property every so often. Still, a completely renovated property is easy to rent and has fewer repair requests as long as you let the right type of tenant into your property.

Lastly, this is not my typical deal. Over the years, I've made my share of mistakes. However, the good deals tend to smooth out the bad. Fortunately, real estate is forgiving as long as you buy for cash flow.

This ugly duckling in now my golden goose. She's just sitting there laying monthly golden eggs worth $1,145. As long as I continue to take care of her, she will take care of me for years on end.

Don't kill the goose.

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Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y

that was a great read!  I don't agree with it, but it was a well written and thought out. 

I flip and have long term rentals.  It is true long term will build wealth, but flipping allows me to buy more long term rentals.  I have 10 flips now with an estimated profit of $349,000 after all expenses and that doesn't count the money I made on the commission as an agent buying them. 

Does it take work?  Yes, but I have a team to handle most tasks and contractors to do the work. I also have a real estate business that sold 200 homes, a blog that I write a few articles or a week and twins who are three.  The flipping is by no means a full time job.  

I have been flipping since 2001 and my father was flipping before that. We always averaged over 30k profit on the flips no matter the market or if other people caught on.  The good flippers will find a way to find good deals. 

As far as taxes, yes it pushes you into the higher tax bracket, but so what. My entire income is not taxed at the highest percentage only the amount I make over the thresholds.  Paying a higher tax rate doesn't make you hire more people and do more business unless you want to make even more money!  I would be making much less money after taxes if I didn't flip than if I did.  I pay more taxes, but I make much more money and that makes me happy. I don't care about sticking it to the IRS. I care about my bottom line.  

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  • Wholesaler · Mount Pleasant, SC · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    I agree with 99% of this post and enjoyed reading 100% of it.  Thanks for writing such a detailed analysis of a real deal.  It was great to read. 

  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    This is awesome @Cory Binsfield ! Are you opposed to me making this a "BiggerPockets Blog" guest post article? (I'll attribute this to you, of course! :) ) 

  • Levi BennettPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2014 · 285 posts · 248 votes
    12y

    Yup. Thanks for confirming many of the things I have thought of regarding flipping vs buy and hold. Obviously, some people WANT to stay busy, but.. I like the buy and hold strategy a lot, for this exact reason. Nice post, thanks.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    that was a great read!  I don't agree with it, but it was a well written and thought out. 

    I flip and have long term rentals.  It is true long term will build wealth, but flipping allows me to buy more long term rentals.  I have 10 flips now with an estimated profit of $349,000 after all expenses and that doesn't count the money I made on the commission as an agent buying them. 

    Does it take work?  Yes, but I have a team to handle most tasks and contractors to do the work. I also have a real estate business that sold 200 homes, a blog that I write a few articles or a week and twins who are three.  The flipping is by no means a full time job.  

    I have been flipping since 2001 and my father was flipping before that. We always averaged over 30k profit on the flips no matter the market or if other people caught on.  The good flippers will find a way to find good deals. 

    As far as taxes, yes it pushes you into the higher tax bracket, but so what. My entire income is not taxed at the highest percentage only the amount I make over the thresholds.  Paying a higher tax rate doesn't make you hire more people and do more business unless you want to make even more money!  I would be making much less money after taxes if I didn't flip than if I did.  I pay more taxes, but I make much more money and that makes me happy. I don't care about sticking it to the IRS. I care about my bottom line.  

  • Investor · Waynesville, NC · Member since 2014 · 408 posts · 121 votes
    12y

    Definitely an interesting perspective @Cory Binsfield

    I agree with @Mark Ferguson , I see flipping as a way for me to generate the large chunks of cash it takes to buy my rentals. Fore example, I will soon close on a flip that will sell for $165,000. It will cost me a pretty good chunk in taxes, but it wouldn't have been a good rental. I plan to take that profit and buy a rental property. 

    The advantage of the flip is I can use short term private money for the flip and then use my profits to buy rental properties free and clear. Essentially I can operate with none of my own money now if I choose to.

  • Investor · Chantilly, VA · Member since 2014 · 249 posts · 31 votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield   - Wow, well worth my time and it clarifies so many facts for newbies like me. It helps to set realistic goals and helps to know the complete picture

    @Mark Ferguson - I understand that if you want to make more money, more number of people are needed and its highly demanding. But finding the right deal, generating funding for each flip, finding the right contractors takes some time and yes when you have an eye for what a good deal is, the streamlining of processes help. But until you get there it is a high investment of effort and time. 

    How many people do you think have time to invest and then be persistent about what they are looking. What Cory may be hinting towards is flipping is not always the shiny object, there is other side of shiny object which needs to be considered before jumping in.

    And there is always buy-hold which is traditional path of investing. 

    As someone said "To achieve something different, we need to do things differently"

  • Investor · Chantilly, VA · Member since 2014 · 249 posts · 31 votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield @Mark Ferguson - For some reason the tags are not working in my post, hence tagging it here

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Nilesh Makhija:

    @Cory Binsfield   - Wow, well worth my time and it clarifies so many facts for newbies like me. It helps to set realistic goals and helps to know the complete picture

    @Mark Ferguson - I understand that if you want to make more money, more number of people are needed and its highly demanding. But finding the right deal, generating funding for each flip, finding the right contractors takes some time and yes when you have an eye for what a good deal is, the streamlining of processes help. But until you get there it is a high investment of effort and time. 

    How many people do you think have time to invest and then be persistent about what they are looking. What Cory may be hinting towards is flipping is not always the shiny object, there is other side of shiny object which needs to be considered before jumping in.

    And there is always buy-hold which is traditional path of investing. 

    As someone said "To achieve something different, we need to do things differently"

    It should be a high investment of time to buy and hold as well.  You will need contractors, property management and a team if you want to do many buy and holds unless you want to make it your full time job.  Nothing worth while is easy and quick. 

  • Investor · NY · Member since 2014 · 74 posts · 49 votes
    12y

    Where do you get the money to buy & hold though? You have a regular job. Flipping is just a job, more enjoyable than most jobs for a lot of people here I would guess and it keeps you in the game full time so you can keep some of the great deals you find as buy & holds. If you don't enjoy flipping and can make more money in whatever 9-5 job you have then stick with it.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield 

    That was an amazing post.  Thank you, so much.  I'm actually in the process of listening to Rich Dad, Poor Dad as an audiobook, and this post could not have been more timely!

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 156 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Hattie Dizmond:

    @Cory Binsfield 

    That was an amazing post.  Thank you, so much.  I'm actually in the process of listening to Rich Dad, Poor Dad as an audiobook, and this post could not have been more timely!

    Glad I could inspire you! Rich Dad Poor Dad is a great resource. Just watch out for high priced gurus. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 218 posts · 166 votes
    12y

    Great read. This has been an internal struggle for me for a long time. Like the saying goes,

    "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 156 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Definitely an interesting perspective @Cory Binsfield

    I agree with @Mark Ferguson , I see flipping as a way for me to generate the large chunks of cash it takes to buy my rentals. Fore example, I will soon close on a flip that will sell for $165,000. It will cost me a pretty good chunk in taxes, but it wouldn't have been a good rental. I plan to take that profit and buy a rental property. 

    The advantage of the flip is I can use short term private money for the flip and then use my profits to buy rental properties free and clear. Essentially I can operate with none of my own money now if I choose to.

    Flipping is a great means to an end. I've for nothing against this approach as long as you keep the end in mind-building wealth.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sebastian, FL · Member since 2014 · 812 posts · 432 votes
    12y

    I think @Mark Ferguson summed it up perfectly. Flipping is not the means to long term passive wealth, but as a vehicle it can help you get there by providing cash to invest in additional buy and hold properties.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Flipping is a job and it should be treated as such. If you have 20 long-term rentals and you manage them all yourself that becomes a job as well.  That job is probably more stable than the flipping. 

    I don't mean to beat the tax issue, but it is a huge pet peeve of mine.  I think it is silly to say you don't want to make too much money, because you have to pay more taxes.  Example, (not real numbers)  I make $100,000 a year and have a tax rate of 30%, I pay $30,000 in taxes and keep $70,000 (that's not really true because the tax rate for the first money you make will be almost 0 and slowly raise after that).  Assume the tax rate once you make $100,000 is 40 percent. I then make $250,000.  I pay $30,000 in taxes on the first $100,000 I make and then $60,000 on the next $150,000 I make.  I pay a total of $90,000 in taxes and keep $160,000.  Do I want $160,000 or $70,000 after taxes.  That's an easy decision for me! 

    Take it one step further and say I pay 50 percent in taxes after I make $250,000.  If I make $500,000 I pay $90,000 on the first $250,000 I make and then $125,000 on the next $250,000 I make at the higher tax rate.  I now have paid $215,000 in taxes, but I get to take home $285,000.  I would still much rather have $285,000 than $160,000 or $70,000.   These numbers are actually much higher than they would be in real life after deductions and the tax rates are too high as well, but it shows the value of making more money!

  • Investor · Smithville, MO · Member since 2014 · 160 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    Great read @Mark Ferguson !  Thank for your time, detail and perspective.

  • Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 27 votes
    12y
    How do you know when not to over leverage yourself in mortgages? The buy and hold doesn't allow U to retire early, correct? I've kind of always liked Thad (flip this house tv show) where he would keep flipping until he could buy a rental outright. Thoughts ?
  • Appraiser · Moulton, AL · Member since 2014 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    Thanks for that post @Cory Binsfield . I'm just getting started in the REI world and being able to read posts like yours and @Mark Ferguson in the same forum is a great way to learn to balance perspectives and techniques.   Thanks gentlemen!  Looking forward to learning more from both of you. 

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Cory Binsfield:
    Originally posted by @Hattie Dizmond:

    @Cory Binsfield 

    That was an amazing post.  Thank you, so much.  I'm actually in the process of listening to Rich Dad, Poor Dad as an audiobook, and this post could not have been more timely!

    Glad I could inspire you! Rich Dad Poor Dad is a great resource. Just watch out for high priced gurus. 

    I already had my "close call" with the $29k Mastery program of Fortune Builders.  Then I discovered BP and have sworn off gurus!!!

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 156 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Drew Denham:

    How do you know when not to over leverage yourself in mortgages? The buy and hold doesn't allow U to retire early, correct? I've kind of always liked Thad (flip this house tv show) where he would keep flipping until he could buy a rental outright. Thoughts ? 

    Leverage is the tricky part. As long as you carefully manage the loans and buy for cash flow you can still retire early.  Let's say you had 20 homes at 400/mo net cash flow after loans, that's 8,000 per month. Not a bad retirement. Plus it's almost all tax free since your  an investor versus a flipper. Their is a reason the IRS classifies flippetrs as dealers. It's  the worst tax classification to be in!

    Or you could flip a few and pay down mortgages with the profits. I know a guy that combines buy and hold with flips. His main wealth machine is the  buy and hold and the flips are on the side. Due to his flip business, he has a full time crew that can be used on his buy and hold portfolio as well. It's an interesting model but he's full time. 

  • Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 27 votes
    12y
    How do you know when not to over leverage yourself in mortgages? The buy and hold doesn't allow U to retire early, correct? I've kind of always liked Thad (flip this house tv show) where he would keep flipping until he could buy a rental outright. ThoughtCory Binsfield r Thanks. How do I get the down payments? I have one rental in a A- area 8 yrs left on the mortgage and it's a wash w payment and rent. I really don't want to pull the equity out but I project I can save 15k in 10 months. What's your strategy for having a down payment?
  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2011 · 345 posts · 120 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Mark Ferguson:

    Flipping is a job and it should be treated as such. If you have 20 long-term rentals and you manage them all yourself that becomes a job as well.  That job is probably more stable than the flipping. 

    I don't mean to beat the tax issue, but it is a huge pet peeve of mine.  I think it is silly to say you don't want to make too much money, because you have to pay more taxes.  Example, (not real numbers)  I make $100,000 a year and have a tax rate of 30%, I pay $30,000 in taxes and keep $70,000 (that's not really true because the tax rate for the first money you make will be almost 0 and slowly raise after that).  Assume the tax rate once you make $100,000 is 40 percent. I then make $250,000.  I pay $30,000 in taxes on the first $100,000 I make and then $60,000 on the next $150,000 I make.  I pay a total of $90,000 in taxes and keep $160,000.  Do I want $160,000 or $70,000 after taxes.  That's an easy decision for me! 

    Take it one step further and say I pay 50 percent in taxes after I make $250,000.  If I make $500,000 I pay $90,000 on the first $250,000 I make and then $125,000 on the next $250,000 I make at the higher tax rate.  I now have paid $215,000 in taxes, but I get to take home $285,000.  I would still much rather have $285,000 than $160,000 or $70,000.   These numbers are actually much higher than they would be in real life after deductions and the tax rates are too high as well, but it shows the value of making more money!

    Thanks for posting this, I've never understood that logic either. The owner at one of my first sales jobs told us how he hated to pay 50% of his income in taxes but loved that he had to. It meant he was making money.

  • Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    12y

    @Mark Ferguson ,

    I recently attended an event that spoke about taxes. There, the attorney suggested that as flippers we create a S-Corp that allows us to pay ourselves a W-2 salary (say $100,00.00) so that we fall into a smaller tax bracket, and then use all the left over money earned from flipping as business revenue (anything above $100,000.00) towards funding future flips (which is what we would most likely be using the money for eventually), and not be taxed so highly on our personal earnings. Is that not something that you do? If not, why? I'm curious to understand your tax logic a bit more.

    Thanks for your post. I'm a newbie and am trying to understand different trains of thought.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield @Mark Ferguson 

      Nice post... a 1031 just deffers tax does not eliminate it.  I like the cash out refi model as well.

    But I like right on's also In today's lending world you really need to show positive income if your going to borrow at bank rates.

    And if for some reason one does not like tenants trash and toilets flipping can be a nice way to go... but you made some very solid points.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Celina De La Torre 

      my accountant is doing the same for me this year.. gets me out of the massive self employment tax's  and of course I am back to paying tax's after a few year hiatus

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