Why I'm not a flipper

Why I'm not a flipper

Cory BinsfieldPro Member
Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 157 posts · 194 votes

The other day I grabbed $40,000 tax free from refinancing a duplex that originally started as an ugly duckling. As I was walking out of the closing on my way to the bank, I couldn't help but wonder how a flipper would have fared on this deal.

I'm not telling you this to brag, but to give you perspective from a buy and hold real estate investor who doesn't have a ten thousand dollar course and coaching program to sell you.

I must admit, the allure of flipping has crossed my mind from time to time. Brandon Turner, at Bigger Pockets, calls this the shiny object syndrome.

In other words, your are doing something that works and then you hear about an investor doing something else and start to wonder if you could be doing something better. Pretty soon, your all over the map with different real estate strategies and have nothing to show for it.

Beware of shiny objects people!

Don't get me wrong. I have flipped a few properties back in the early days of my investment career only to find out later that the taxes and time weren't worth the hassle.

In my humble opinion, you can't build true wealth by rapidly buying and selling assets unless you have lots of capital and a unique edge that the market hasn't discovered yet.

Once the market discovers your edge, people pile in and your margins eventually evaporate. This is the nature of the beast called capitalism.

In the stock market, it's called the Efficient Market Hypothesis.

Like Warren Buffett, I trade little if not at all. My holding period is forever. All my time is spent nurturing my little flock of golden geese while waiting for the right deal to come along.

When it shows up, I pounce and attempt to create long term value through strategic renovations, repositioning or savvy management.

Notice how I'm not fighting the market like the typical flipper. I don't have to find a deal to put food on the table and I can patiently wait for the proverbial fat pitch. I'm simply surfing the wave of capitalism while making minor course corrections.

Yea...this is some heavy stuff. Kinda like Yoda trying to teach an impatient Luke Skywalker how to raise a spaceship from a swamp by harnessing the power of the force.

Let's take a look at my ugly duckling deal and compare it to a flipper who creates the exact same golden goose but kills it for a fast buck.

Way back in 2011, the real estate market was licking it's wounds from the Countrywide Mortgage Subprime Hustle. The loan market was slowly beginning to thaw while bankers were hiding under their desks. The only people who could afford to buy were hedge funds and folks with lots of cash on hand and AAA credit.

As luck would have it, my flooring guy told me about a vacant duplex that was in need of major repair and the owner would seller finance for little down. The perfect pitch!

After a quick assessment, I was able to structure a "win-win" deal where the seller would accept $2,100 down and finance the balance of the purchase of $37,000 at 5% for 20 years with a 10 year balloon. The payment worked out to be $245 per month plus taxes and insurance.

I say "win-win" since the banks had shut me out of the market and I could only buy if it was owner financed. Being that I already had eleven conventional loans, I was forced to deal with commercial banks that were simply not lending due to the real estate crisis.

How bad was it? I had two Countrywide loans that were sold to Bank of America and a commercial loan that was sold three different times in two years since the prior originators had went under. One of the lenders was actually Lehman Brothers-go figure!

The seller was delighted since he was sitting on an empty property and would receive steady cash flow without having to lift a finger.

I closed in December 2011 with my favorite title company and started renovating the first unit in January of 2012. It was almost a complete gut job, but I lucked out since the owner had already started the remodel process and most of the materials were already in the unit.

The place needed new flooring, kitchen cabinets, gas boiler, new shower, bath, a serious clean out and lots of paint. The plumbing and electrical were sound and this is why I quickly made an offer after my walk through.

After spending five months on the upper unit, I managed to get my first renter at $700 per month and had my monthly nut covered. I paid the water and garbage and the tenant paid the heat and electric.

Note: The reason the renovation took so long is I have a full time job and I do this on the side. Moreover, I used tradesman that work on the side as well.

Next, I tackled the lower unit and pretty much did the same thing. After four more months, the lower unit was rented in November of 2012 for $750 per month.

Once again, I covered the garbage and water and the tenant paid the rest.

Finally, I was generating some serious cash flow. Combined, I was taking in $1,450 per month in rents less mortgage payments of $245 excluding taxes, insurance, utilities, maintenance and the new gas boiler loan payment.

Here's a breakdown of the calendar years income and expenses from purchase to refinance.

Purchase date December 2011

Upper Unit Annual income: First renter in June 2012 at $700/mo

2012-$4200

2013-$8400

2014-$4200 before rent increase.

Lower Unit Annual Income: Second renter in November 2012 $750/mo

2012 $1500

2013 $9000

2014 $4500

Total cash flow $31,800

Total Expenses from January 2012 to August 2014:

Water -2,040

Garbage -1,200

Property taxes -3,600

Maintenance and repairs -2,120

Total operating expenses $8,960

Net Operating Income (NOI) over 2 years $22,840

Total debt service $7,272 (including new gas boiler loan).

Cash flow after debt service $15,568

How did I pay for renovations you might ask?

I used the cash flow from my real estate portfolio to cover the construction. Total cost for all the renovations spread out over 12 months or so was $29,941. This brought my "all in cost" of the ugly duckling to $69,041.

Based on my market analysis at time of purchase, I figured the property could sell for $110,000. Fortunately, I was a bit too conservative and the market had improved over the next few years.

Still, I live in a market were duplex values have not recovered since the peak of the sub-prime mortgage meltdown.

On August 8, 2014 the appraisal came in at $139,000. I was stunned!

Assuming I could sell it at this price, my total gain (before selling costs) would be $69,959. This is before I factor in the net cash flow from operations (NOI).

Adding in the NOI it looked like this:

Net income from buying and holding since purchase: $15,568

Profit based upon appraisal: $69,959

Total return $85,527

Total investment out of pocket: $31,941 (down payment plus renovations)

Total cash on cash return: 268%

WHAT IF I SOLD AS A FLIP?

Assuming I could renovate and close this deal in 6 months, I would have to hire a contractor to manage the renovations with a time line of 2 months or less.

Let's assume it take six months from acquisition to sale since the average days on market at the time of sale for this type of property was three months in 2012.

Furthermore, let's assume the contractor needs a 20% profit margin to oversee the flip. Adding in this factor to my renovation cost and I'm up to $35,930 for improvements.

Here's the math if I were a professional flipper.

Renovation cost plus purchase price : $72,930

Estimated holding costs (taxes, insurance, utilities, payments ) $3,500

Realtor commission and closing at 8% $11,120

Total cost as a flipper $87,550

Total gain before tax $51,450

But wait......that's before our silent partner with the initials IRS takes his cut.

Short term capital gain tax at 25% $12,863

Self Employment tax at 15.3% $7,872

Total loss to silent partner $20,735

Net profit after tax $30,715

$30,000 in six months is still a sweet deal. The problem is I can't find deals like this day in and day out to create enough income to hit my retirement goal while raising two kids, two dogs AND making sure my lovely girlfriend sticks around.

Throw in a few vacations, college savings, some walking around money and my annual household "nut" is way north of this number.

What happens when I cash that $30,000 check? I have to reinvest most of the money into another deal and do the process all over again.

Worse, the more I succeed as a flipper, the higher my tax rate.

Imagine if I were super successful flipper like some of the BP folks on the podcast. My combined tax rate would jump to 45% to 55% and this would force me to hire more people and reinvest larger and larger sums to keep the operation running smoothly.

Dang...just thinking about this makes me tired. I'd rather be Warren Buffet who manages one of the biggest companies in the world from a drab office in Omaha with a staff of 24 employes.

Oh, he sits around and reads a lot while sipping Cherry Coke. Periodically, he hops on his private jet to appear on CNBC to warn investors not to trade a lot and simply buy the market and surf the wave of capitalism.

Come to think of it, I bet Warren has less staff than some of the largest flippers out there who don't even come close to generating 182 billion in revenue.

Did I mention he is in a lower tax bracket than his assistant who draws a six figure salary?

Let's circle back now and compare my check from the closing to what I would have earned as a short term flipper.

As you may recall, I pulled out $40,000 tax free as a result of my refinance compared to a hypothetical flip profit of $30,000 by refinancing the seller note and furnace loan at 5.5% over 20 years. The new payment is slightly less since I paid off the seller note and the furnace loan.

Yes.....I could have grabbed more, but I wanted to keep the loan to value at 60% or less for strong cash flow.

Over time, I will continue to net about $13,750 per year tax free by keeping it as a buy and hold while the tenants pay all my expenses on the property including the mortgage. If I do sell, I will avoid taxes by simply doing this thing called a tax deferred exchange.

How cool is that?

If I die, my kids get the property at the current market value. All taxes are stepped up and my kids can sell the golden goose or continue collecting passive income.

Take that Mr. IRS!

Best of all, I don't have to wake up everyday and punch the flipper clock to generate another $30,000. I can generate the same income by simply replicating this deal with a couple of more properties.

Yes, I have to manage tenants, field phone calls and lease the property every so often. Still, a completely renovated property is easy to rent and has fewer repair requests as long as you let the right type of tenant into your property.

Lastly, this is not my typical deal. Over the years, I've made my share of mistakes. However, the good deals tend to smooth out the bad. Fortunately, real estate is forgiving as long as you buy for cash flow.

This ugly duckling in now my golden goose. She's just sitting there laying monthly golden eggs worth $1,145. As long as I continue to take care of her, she will take care of me for years on end.

Don't kill the goose.

19Reply
470 views

Most Popular Reply

Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y

that was a great read!  I don't agree with it, but it was a well written and thought out. 

I flip and have long term rentals.  It is true long term will build wealth, but flipping allows me to buy more long term rentals.  I have 10 flips now with an estimated profit of $349,000 after all expenses and that doesn't count the money I made on the commission as an agent buying them. 

Does it take work?  Yes, but I have a team to handle most tasks and contractors to do the work. I also have a real estate business that sold 200 homes, a blog that I write a few articles or a week and twins who are three.  The flipping is by no means a full time job.  

I have been flipping since 2001 and my father was flipping before that. We always averaged over 30k profit on the flips no matter the market or if other people caught on.  The good flippers will find a way to find good deals. 

As far as taxes, yes it pushes you into the higher tax bracket, but so what. My entire income is not taxed at the highest percentage only the amount I make over the thresholds.  Paying a higher tax rate doesn't make you hire more people and do more business unless you want to make even more money!  I would be making much less money after taxes if I didn't flip than if I did.  I pay more taxes, but I make much more money and that makes me happy. I don't care about sticking it to the IRS. I care about my bottom line.  

See this reply in the discussion

80 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Celina De La Torre  I have an s corp set up for my flipping business and my real estate agent business as well. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2011 · 252 posts · 56 votes
    12y

    So your argument is that you don't want to make more money cause it would involve more taxes and hard work. ok.  in the 3 years you've held the property you've made 85k.  Doing two of those deals a year flipping you could have made 180k which could have been put as a down payment on roughly 600k worth of rentals.  Doing rehabs is like any other business.,,building a product and selling it.  

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 157 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Drew Denham:

    How do you know when not to over leverage yourself in mortgages? The buy and hold doesn't allow U to retire early, correct? I've kind of always liked Thad (flip this house tv show) where he would keep flipping until he could buy a rental outright. ThoughtCory Binsfield r

    Thanks. How do I get the down payments? I have one rental in a A- area 8 yrs left on the mortgage and it's a wash w payment and rent. I really don't want to pull the equity out but I project I can save 15k in 10 months. What's your strategy for having a down payment?

    Depends on your long term goal. I started by doing cash out refi's to build the portfolio one property at a time. To ensure cash flow, I always used 30 year fixed loans. After I hit my ten limit, I was forced into 20 year commercial loans. Down payments came from savings and living below my means plus buying right and being able to pull out equity for more properties. Once you hit your goal, then you can focus on mortgage paydown via 10 or 15 year loans. 

  • Investor · Lafayette/Baton Rouge, LA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 915 votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield you and I are right here man [as I point two fingers at my own eyes and back at yours]!  You even used so many of the same analogies that I use when I talk to other investors about why I buy and hold.  The only thing I say different, is flipping a house is like eating a goose that lays golden eggs because you are hungry!  Thanks, awesome post!

    That said, I know there are markets where it makes no sense at all to buy and hold.  I get that.  My perspective is based on what I have access to in my home market in the price range that I invest, 125k or less.  To each his own, but when you can do what Cory described in this post, it's an incredible way to invest for the long term that I think offers very appealing lifestyle options.

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 157 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jim M.:

    So your argument is that you don't want to make more money cause it would involve more taxes and hard work. ok.  in the 3 years you've held the property you've made 85k.  Doing two of those deals a year flipping you could have made 180k which could have been put as a down payment on roughly 600k worth of rentals.  Doing rehabs is like any other business.,,building a product and selling it.  

    My goal is the most amount of money with the least amount of work. Flipping takes lots of work. Managing fully rehabbed properties in nice areas that attract nice tenants takes little work. 

    The point of the article is you make more money over the long term by holding than by flipping. Plus, the depreciation benefits of long term holds offsets earned income and this allows you to make more money while paying less in taxes. 

    I wish I could find two deals a year and make $180k after tax (360k before tax) so I could  fund 600k in rentals. Is it possible? Yes. 

    Is it probable? No. 

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 157 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Robert Leonard:

    @Cory Binsfield you and I are right here man [as I point two fingers at my own eyes and back at yours]!  You even used so many of the same analogies that I use when I talk to other investors about why I buy and hold.  The only thing I say different, is flipping a house is like eating a goose that lays golden eggs because you are hungry!  Thanks, awesome post!

    Don't eat the goose! I like that. The market is everything. I used to live in San Francisco and could not replicate this strategy no matter how hard I tried. This is one of the reason I moved. 

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 157 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Cory Binsfield @Mark Ferguson 

      Nice post... a 1031 just deffers tax does not eliminate it.  I like the cash out refi model as well.

    Great point on the 1031. My goal is massive passive income. If all goes well, I will defer till I die! 

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jim M.:

    So your argument is that you don't want to make more money cause it would involve more taxes and hard work. ok.  in the 3 years you've held the property you've made 85k.  Doing two of those deals a year flipping you could have made 180k which could have been put as a down payment on roughly 600k worth of rentals.  Doing rehabs is like any other business.,,building a product and selling it.  

     Jim is absolutely right.  

    I'd argue that there are 2 flaws in this argument:

    1- "What happens when I cash that $30,000 check? I have to reinvest most of the money into another deal and do the process all over again."

    We've already paid for the house, this is a profit check!  If I want to accelerate my business and generate more, then, just like you I use my profit to re-invest into more properties.  No big difference there.

    2- "30,000 in six months is still a sweet deal. The problem is I can't find deals like this day in and day out to create enough income to hit my retirement goal"

    2.A - Six Month's?  A flipper that's held a property for 6 months to net 30k, is probably doing it wrong.  It takes the same amount of time to do a tear-down and stick built.  If it takes your team 6 month's to do a single flip this is everyone's second job that they are only doing on the weekends.

    2.B - You can't find these deals like this every day because it's not what you want to do.  You want to find buy and hold deals.

    Also flippers on average are going to have a higher annual ROI then a buy and hold. I am of the belief that most Landlords get inflated ideas in their head because they get one big payday every couple of years which makes $$ versus the small dollars they make on cash flow. IRT - your cash out refinance and or a sale. My annual ROI looks great as a Landlord because of it. But I'm getting greedy to see more 30k spendable checks more often than I do now.

    Of course I want to flip 5 keep the profit of two for Living, and continue to purchase more buy and holds.

  • Cory BinsfieldPro Member
    OP
    Financial Advisor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2012 · 157 posts · 194 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Celina De La Torre:

    @Mark Ferguson ,

    I recently attended an event that spoke about taxes. There, the attorney suggested that as flippers we create a S-Corp that allows us to pay ourselves a W-2 salary (say $100,00.00) so that we fall into a smaller tax bracket, and then use all the left over money earned from flipping as business revenue (anything above $100,000.00) towards funding future flips (which is what we would most likely be using the money for eventually), and not be taxed so highly on our personal earnings. Is that not something that you do? If not, why? I'm curious to understand your tax logic a bit more.

    Thanks for your post. I'm a newbie and am trying to understand different trains of thought.

    I would definitely consult a CPA on this one since I'm not tax expert. I have an S Corp for another business and it helps defray some but not all of the self employment tax. My goal is massive passive income since it's one of most tax favored incomes outside of long term capital gains. 

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield your post is very well written and reads more like a blog post than the forum threads, great job. That said, I don't agree with everything you posted, not because I am a flipper (I'm also a buy and holder too) but because many of your arguments to holding over flipping are flawed. First, in your numbers comparison example, your ROI on the buy and hold is not accurate. You forgot to take into account that it took 2 years and 8 months to get that return, not one year, therefore, the return is actually 100%. Secondly, you unfairly compared the costs. You placed RE resale costs on the flip and not on the buy hold then sell example. To be fair and compare apples to apples, you need to pay RE sales costs on the exit of a buy and hold too.

    In the refi example, that is clearly tax free and no RE sales to pay for, a wonderful strategy and I fully agree. As to the rest, and as others have pointed out, flipping is a very active job and buy and hold is a semi passive job (being a landlord is never fully passive). The flipping is a great means to raise more capital on your path to building both wealth and financial freedom. Clearly it is a means to an end as you are likely not going to flip for life.

    Lastly, one factor not pointed out by anyone specifically is the opportunity loss you have given up. By keeping this investment as opposed to flipping it, you have lost the opportunity to raise that extra $30k, likely inside of 4 months if done right and used that to buy 3-5 similar deals to hold. One flip done right can enable an investor to buy more buy and holds. A few flips done right and you replace that nine to five job you keep causing you to take so long doing your rehabs. I would suggest you calculate your costs, both actual and opportunity, for the added time it took you to do this slowly and on the side rather than paying a bit more for it to get done quicker. Your argument of not being able to find enough deals like this simply means you are not efficiently or consistently going after them, nothing more, nothing less.

    I'm averaging about a year on my current flips and over $500k in profits per. That enables me to buy hundreds of buy and hold units and in a few more years from now, I will only be flipping for fun, not because I have to or need to.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Cory Binsfield:
    Originally posted by @Jim M.:

    So your argument is that you don't want to make more money cause it would involve more taxes and hard work. ok.  in the 3 years you've held the property you've made 85k.  Doing two of those deals a year flipping you could have made 180k which could have been put as a down payment on roughly 600k worth of rentals.  Doing rehabs is like any other business.,,building a product and selling it.  

    My goal is the most amount of money with the least amount of work. Flipping takes lots of work. Managing fully rehabbed properties in nice areas that attract nice tenants takes little work. 

    The point of the article is you make more money over the long term by holding than by flipping. Plus, the depreciation benefits of long term holds offsets earned income and this allows you to make more money while paying less in taxes. 

    I wish I could find two deals a year and make $180k after tax (360k before tax) so I could  fund 600k in rentals. Is it possible? Yes. 

    Is it probable? No. 

     I'm not sure I have ever seen a flipper pay 50% in taxes. 

    After reading other comments and looking at the numbers again. I see a few other things that don't quite add up.  

    1.  You include the difference in your appraisal and the money invested as profit. As a buy and hold guy, equity is never profit.  If you did sell your going to have to pay agents, closing costs=$13,000 or so.  

    2.  You didn't include paying any taxes if you were to sell the rental. You counted taxes for the flipper but not the buy and hold.  The only way to realize that profit is to sell and you'll have to pay taxes on that profit unless you do a 1031 exchange.  Your still not seeing that money in your pocket, your transferring equity.  

    3.  Cash and cash isn't calculated based on equity.  It's based on actual profit: rental income.  You would calculate cash on cash by taking the rental income divided by cash Initially into the property. 

    You also mentioned the flipper would have to take his $30,000 profit and sink it I to another property. Remember he had the money to buy and repair one so he will get all that cash back plus the profit. He can take the $30k or 20k after taxes and use it for more capital into the flip business or buy a rental and still have money to flip. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    @Cory Binsfield,

    Excellent post and I really enjoyed it. I love how you tied in some similarities with the stock market. Flipping vs Buy and hold investor are different as one is active income while the other is passive. Flipping reminds me of a day trader vs a buy and hold reminds me of long term investor who indexes the entire stock market.

    I guess it really boils down to what do you enjoy doing? What are natural gifts and talents? Where do make the most money on a hourly basis with the minimum amount of stress? Cory, I tend to agree with your post as I don't find flipping to be fun and seems too risky for me with hard work that is involved. I've been looking for a flipping opportunities in Atlanta and I just can't seem find one that I feel comfortable with to take on.  @J Scott probably can go into a house and within 5 minutes he will would know If it is good flip or not and turn a haunted house into a beauty and flip the home with his eyes closed.  Give the same task to Warren Buffet, Jim Roger, or Peter Lynch and they will probably have nervous break down and be completely stressed out during the entire flipping process.

    There is many different ways to reach our retirement goals in real estate, and I personally like to buy 1 or 2 good SFRs a year in excellent "A" neighborhoods and hold them til retirement. For some reason, I don't really care for investing in mult family, apartments, office condos, and shopping centers. I only like SFRs, so that is the asset class I stick with. As a real estate broker, I much rather sell two $700k golf course homes than to flip a home as I would make more money on an hourly basis with much less stress. No one has a right or wrong answer to their strategy. No one can really judge that your investment strategy is wrong as what works for you may not work for me. What you may consider to be low risk and fun, may be considered high risk and stressful for me. If you love flipping homes and that is your pure passion and talent, by all means... more power to you.

  • Bill ExeterBusiness Member
    1031 Exchange Qualified Intermediary · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Cory Binsfield @Mark Ferguson 

      Nice post... a 1031 just deffers tax does not eliminate it.  I like the cash out refi model as well.

    But I like right on's also In today's lending world you really need to show positive income if your going to borrow at bank rates.

    And if for some reason one does not like tenants trash and toilets flipping can be a nice way to go... but you made some very solid points.

    I thought I would jump in here and correct the above statement that the 1031 Exchange just defers the tax.  It can actually eliminate the tax if you continue to 1031 Exchange through out your lifetime and then leave the properties to your heirs.  Your heirs will receive a complete step-up in cost basis and pay no capital gain taxes, depreciation recapture taxes or Medicare surcharge.  So, its much more than a one time tax-deferred transaction, but actually a wealth building strategy.

    Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC and Exeter Trust Company4.826 Reviews
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    I see both sides of this.

    I do agree that flipping has been drying up on the residential side. Experienced flippers that are friends have been doing the "move-up" flips. Not first time home buyers. These are houses that are more expensive and you are not dealing generally with over zealous home buyers or newbie investors on buying the property. You can beat down the sellers more for better margins as their are less flippers with the capital to play at that level.

    I think it comes to what does your job pay you annually?? If your breakeven is 4,000 a month then you need to make 80k to100k before taxes. You won't even save that much after that for investing. Most people do not have much money to start so that leaves wholesaling or flipping.

    If you are a high income earner then you do not need to flip. Your ability to regenerate capital to invest is very fast monthly. My clients on the commercial side have very high income jobs. 300k to 500k a year on the low end and going into the millions. They are happy for more passive investments.

    Engineers, Doctors, business owners, professional sports players, etc. are just a few of my clients.

    I personally have zero interest in house flipping or residential. I regenerate capital through closing commercial real estate transactions with my clients and investing. I do go after value add commercial investments that have about 5 angles of upside.

    Just refi up or 1031 and keep growing it.

    You are going to get multiple answers on here due to individual circumstances. You do need to keep buying property so you don't get the taxes on income taking away all your profit.  Rich Weese on here hardly pays any taxes. I am no tax expert but he has some interesting strategies on what he does to whittle it down.

    The super wealthy by the way do not write blank checks to the government. They control a lot of the money by giving to charities and knowing what every cent is being spent on. They get good will and PR for their brand and companies this way.

    If you write a large blank check to the government the only thing you can count on is they will waste the money and not be able to account to where it all went........ : )  

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    I've lost count how many articles I've written about this very thing on the BP Blog.  Nice!

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    @Ben Leybovich

    Do you have a link of your blog on this topic. I would love to read more related to this topic.



    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:@

    I've lost count how many articles I've written about this very thing on the BP Blog.  Nice!

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    There's no arguing that a good buy-and-hold strategy is tremendous wealth-builder.  That said, comparing and contrasting buy-and-hold to flipping is like comparing Monet to Picasso -- they are very different and to say one is better or worse than the other is a non-sequitor.

    I could easily argue that in the three years you were holding that property, I made 10x the value of your property in flipping income and at the end of the three years -- even after taxes -- I could buy several of the same types of buy-and-holds and be ahead of you.

    But, that's a ridiculous argument as well, as there are so many other factors that play into this.  Ultimately, there are lots of good (and bad) ways to build wealth, and trying to compare them apples-to-apples is going to be fraught with missed factors.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    I was going to post a picture with poop in a basket but thought @Brandon Turner would remove it... 

    Talk about a hater post loaded with a bunch of arrogant B.S. OMG.

    It is one thing to post an article about your success to inspire all of us however its another to do so in a manner which erodes the fabric of unity and good spirit. 

    What you posted equated to a line in the sand and in your opinion on one side of it are the passive folks... "The smart people" and on the other side are the flippers, IYO the stupid people.

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2011 · 673 posts · 360 votes
    12y

    @Joel Owens made a good point and touched on a very important distinction. 

    Joel continues to be a broker because that is his BUSINESS and is an income generator because he is good at it.  A flipper that does a volume of properties with systems and people in place to manage it has a BUSINESS and it should be evaluated as such.

    I feel like the OP was trying to compare mom and pop flippers and buy and hold investors.  While it may have some merits on the one or 2 a year investors it doesn't hold up when evaluating on a larger scale.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Exeter 

     Yes Bill if this investors intentions are to give it all to the Heirs and not cash in any equity.

  • Wholesaler · Bristow, VA · Member since 2011 · 41 posts · 3 votes
    12y

    Not to sound mean but i feel like Will and Mark just dropped the mic and exited stage left! 

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    12y

    Listen, it boils down to different strokes for different folks.....

    One isn't better then the other. People may be better aqt one then the other but that is completely different.

    I am a buy and hold long term investor/Landlord investng primarily for cashflow to build wealth over time.

    Why do I do this? Because I am good at it, it is what I know and i feel comfortable and feel I am talented at Managing people and properties.

    Another reason is it allows my to work a Corprate day job making decent money. The syneregy of the two is what is helping me build wealth. As a flipper not sure I would be able to work a full day job working 50+ hours a week unless I had some really good people I could depend upon to Manage my flips.

    If I knew the flipping business well and or started out learning that business when I was 20 maybe I would be a flipper making even more money who knows???

    One of the things I like best about RE is there are so many aspects to it and so many ways to make money. Your imigination is the limit.

  • Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2014 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    THANK YOU! For this post. This should be the ultimate goal is to hold properties. Flipping is good for building capital. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y
    I think we are comparing apples to oranges. Flipping is considered active income just like a lawyer's salary, an ecommerce professional's salary, a real estate agent's commission, or a stock broker. These are front end money generating businesses. Your buy and hold real estate is sort of like building your 401k or retirement account that will pay huge dividends down the road so that you no longer need to generate active income and live off of your passive income.

    If you are already making good money in the front end and don't find flipping fun... then why become a flipper? In my front end revenue generation, I have three requirements: 1) It must fun 2) It must help someone 3) It must be profitable.

    Although I may never find flipping to be fun in real life. My wife and I love watching Tarek and Christina on HGTV! Tarek reminds me of J Scott in action.





    Originally posted by @Chris Masons:

    Listen, it boils down to different strokes for different folks.....

    One isn't better then the other. People may be better aqt one then the other but that is completely different.

    I am a buy and hold long term investor/Landlord investng primarily for cashflow to build wealth over time.

    Why do I do this? Because I am good at it, it is what I know and i feel comfortable and feel I am talented at Managing people and properties.

    Another reason is it allows my to work a Corprate day job making decent money. The syneregy of the two is what is helping me build wealth. As a flipper not sure I would be able to work a full day job working 50+ hours a week unless I had some really good people I could depend upon to Manage my flips.

    If I knew the flipping business well and or started out learning that business when I was 20 maybe I would be a flipper making even more money who knows???

    One of the things I like best about RE is there are so many aspects to it and so many ways to make money. Your imigination is the limit.

  • Homeowner · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 854 posts · 511 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @James Park:
    Although I may never find flipping to be fun in real life. My wife and I love watching Tarek and Christina on HGTV! Tarek reminds me of J Scott in action.

    Anyone on BP that Christina reminds you of?  :)

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.