Don't trust our agent, what can we do?

Don't trust our agent, what can we do?

Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes

First of all I want to say that we do have some fault in this situation. I'm not trying to play the innocent victim, we did some things wrong and have learned our lesson. But we aren't the only ones that did something wrong but at least we are new to the business and these people are not. All of that being said we have the following situation. 

We purchased a house from another investor off of the MLS that they bought for $200 and turned around and resisted (on the MLS what?) for $250 (hundred thousand). We ran our numbers and the ARV was around $425 with $75 in repairs. So we ended up being the place against our gut instinct for $243. The numbers appear good but the kicker is that the quotes were coming in around $125 due to the code issues that would need to be addressed. The issues could have been left but that would mean not doing the renovations needed to get the ARV.

In Massachusetts we have something called a P&S agreement. In a normal retail transaction this is usually after the inspection period is over and everything is good. At the time of signing you also put down 5% of the purchase price. In our case the contract was written like a retail transaction except we had waived the inspection and their was no wording about due diligence (I found out now...lesson #1, read the contract in depth). We signed the P&S a week after the offer was signed (about a week and a half ago) and put down the rest of the 5%. This was $13,500 total.

Now that we have all of the information we stand to make about $18,000 in total on the deal (and that's if the repairs stay around $75 which is not likely. The out of pocket costs for this are around $60 grand. Yes we will make $80 but subtract the holding/hard money costs and you have not much. Of course contractors are slow and we didn't know this until a couple of days ago. 

We are scheduled to close this Thursday and we told our realtor to ask for an extension because our hard money people wanted a signed contractor quote for $75k. He never asked for the extension and he's trying to tell us how to do it by just adding granite in the kitchen and skim coating the walls. I did a cost analysis and wrote a letter saying we needed to lower the price to $203 to make it profitable or we needed out of the deal. We sent the note to our realtor to deliver on Saturday and haven't heard anything from the sellers until today (4:45 PM EST) saying they won't give us our money back. 

Like I said we did some things wrong, the initial contract was bad and we should have never signed it. It didn't protect us and we should have never agreed to pay $13,500 in total deposits. We weren't in a position to know the true costs and we should have never signed the P&S. But our realtor misrepresented the ARV and didn't protect us in the contract. He also never asked for an extension like we asked him to do. I've caught him in lies about when he delivered my note to the sellers and our attorney. The attorney is his 'guy' so I don't trust the attorney either. I realize we likely won't get all of our deposit back but at this point I don't feel like we have anyone on our side.

Add to all of this that the listing was incorrect. The place was listed at 4 bedrooms, 1 bath and it's actually 2 bedrooms, 0 baths. It has a toilet room and a shower in the middle of another room. I was just sent a letter from the listing agent saying they won't let us out of the contract and are going to keep our money. The lawyer is going to talk to their lawyer but I don't have any faith in him.  

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Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
11y

You really should hire an attorney. Who is holding the deposit money? I would think the seller's agent is holding it. They cant release your deposit to the seller until you agree in writing. It sounds like you have a case against your agent. Brokers in MA must get a bond and they should have E&O insurance. Stop dealing with this incompetent agent. Get in touch w the office Broker. Message me and I can look them up through the MLS and find out who the broker is. @Erica Nagle. You can even call me if you would like. My cell number is in my signature below. 

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  • North Dartmouth, MA · Member since 2014 · 172 posts · 53 votes
    11y

    @Erica Nagle

    Just reading this seems like a messy situation. I get it but even if end up pulling out of this and losing the money, the amount of you learned is invaluable. Of course, that's the last thing you want to do and if they give you a hard time about deposit, you could hire an attorney to review the P&S and see if there is an escape route you could entertain. At least you won't be out everything.

    But I think the moral here is there need to be more a process before the initial offer, definitely more due diligence and safety. You always want exit strategies and the review of the P&S/contract is unbelievably important. You want to make sure you understand everything.

    And did I read this right.

    No, no, no.  Don't do that.  Ever.

    Might end up being an expensive mistake but I think you have options.  First it doesn't hurt to ask for the deposit back and bulk up a bit, have your agent protect your best interests and let them know you will work with your own attorney on this.

    You'll be fine.

    Kyle

  • North Dartmouth, MA · Member since 2014 · 172 posts · 53 votes
    11y

    @Erica Nagle

     the quote didn't get my underline but I was specifically referring to the "waived the inspection" part.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    Few things:

    1. Sounds like you didn't read all your documentation you signed. Usually in court a judge will say a buyer has a "right to your own inquiry". This means if you didn't read it or decided to still sign not understanding something then it is on YOU.

    2. Buyers when things go wrong often times point fingers at the broker/agent whether it is all their fault, partly etc. This is why in contracts it will say something like ( The brokerage, broker, agent IS NOT an expert relative to ( all these listed matters etc. ) and that if the buyer has any questions they should seek the professional out to help them research a situation to make a decision ( something to that effect .)

    3. If a property listed on the MLS there usually is a disclaimer that says ( Information deemed to be reliable but not guaranteed ). Meaning they think it is correct but they are not giving a warranty on information presented.

    Sounds like the HML might not even do this loan. WHO is holding the earnest money?? I always have a neutral third party or my attorney hold it. This way if there is a disagreement it can go to court. If a seller holds it they can't be impartial most times and even if you are legally in the right to get your money back some play dirty and tie the money up for months in court or demand you give them some now to release.

    No legal advice given. 

  • Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
    11y

    You really should hire an attorney. Who is holding the deposit money? I would think the seller's agent is holding it. They cant release your deposit to the seller until you agree in writing. It sounds like you have a case against your agent. Brokers in MA must get a bond and they should have E&O insurance. Stop dealing with this incompetent agent. Get in touch w the office Broker. Message me and I can look them up through the MLS and find out who the broker is. @Erica Nagle. You can even call me if you would like. My cell number is in my signature below. 

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    @Kyle Cabral

    You are correct and the lessons learned here are invaluable. This is the only thing that will help me be okay with this. Otherwise I may have a mental breakdown!

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    Thanks @Rob Beland! I may be calling you!

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    Response from the seller's attorney:

    "I am sorry to hear that your buyers are having second thoughts. The condition, town sewer, system update, 3rd floor walk-up and great in-town location to schools, MBTA, EBSCO & restaurants – makes this a very desirable property when completed. I actually have a Mill House coming on the same street a few doors up on the other side that is 500 sf smaller w/ 3 bedrooms & 1 bath that will be coming on for 375k – 385k.

    My sellers are not in a position to renegotiate. They accepted your client’s offer based on the attractive offer of a waived home inspection and waived financing contingency. We could have gone with a 203k instead of your client’s offer, but chose the cash for obvious reasons as timing is critical to my clients and they are counting on the closing this Thursday, June 18th.

    It’s a shame your folks do not have a contractor relationship who understands how to create a quality product, while ensuring an investor gains a healthy return on their investment. We are in an extremely active market with low inventory and ready and willing and able buyers who don’t have the resources to renovate.

    I want to insist that both attorneys from this point on are communicating with one another, in order to move forward with the contract as it was originally intended."

  • Real Estate Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2010 · 39 posts · 5 votes
    11y

    Hi @Erica Nagle

    Sorry for the situation you're in right now, but as the guys have mentioned above, all is not lost, you do have option(s).I'd encourage you to contact an Attorney to handle this.I can  recommend you to one who has dealt with these kinds of situations before. If you're interested I can PM you his info.

    I'm just curious as to why you waived the inspection for a MLS Listed property?

    5% down at P & S signing is not mandatory at all! I have written offers for clients where the bulk of the down payment was brought at closing day. But, if you're the seller,you will want to push for a larger down payment at P & S.

    Also, depending on where you are in MA, you can check to see if Redfin works for you're area. It's a great site for seeing what sold in a targeted area,that way you can do your own due diligence without relying 100 % on the agent.

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    11y

    Well lots of mistakes here...

    Waiving inspections is fine, once you have some experience and can do a reasonable one yourself.  Or if you had a contractor walk it with you initially and gave you an estimate, essentially getting an inspection before the offer.

    Also looks like you took an ARV given to you by the agent at face value. If you don't have MLS access and some experience you do have to put some faith into that, but doesn't sound like you got justification for it.

    Also sounds like you took an agents estimate for repairs.  Can't even find words to say how bad of an idea that is.........

    Also listing says it was a 4/1 but it is really a 2 with a hole in the floor to piss in.  Did you look at the place before putting in the offer?  This stuff obviously doesn't need a well trained eye to pick up on.

    Maybe you don't have your own attorney but just going with the agents guy that is probably just someone that they find easy to work with as they churn out vanilla bank financed closings is not a great one for an investor.

    Finally I could not follow where you were getting some of those numbers, but I will almost guarantee that you are over estimating your profit even if you were to hit your original repair budget.

    All that being said you didn't say that you waived the financing contingency. If it was a standard Offer to Purchase and Sate P&S contract that would be in there. As someone else said your HML probably won't do the loan. If you have financing in there then that is your out since you won't be able to get a loan on it.

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    @Danny N.

    We waived it because we were told in all of our 'classes' that we should waive the inspection because but replace it with some sort of due diligence clause. As investors you aren't going to blackout because the electric panel isn't up to code right? Yeah so we missed the due diligence part. The crazy thing is that we didn't like this realtor and we told him we went with someone else. He had already put this offer in and we couldn't reach an agreement. He them came back later saying they called him and wanted to work with us. We should have gone with our gut!

    Yes please send me the lawyer's info that you know! That would be fantastic. We are in the Northshore area (north of Boston) and we do have Redfin here. We love the site but we've recently found that our comps don't match what we are told by 'respectable' realtors.

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    @Shaun Reily

    Yes, as I said we made lots of mistakes...but thanks for pointing them out again! :)

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    11y

    @Erica Nagle said, it most likely says something in the listing that information is deemed reliable but not guaranteed. Actually, his whole response is pretty spot-on. He is a smart guy with lots of experience.

    Is there another exit strategy that would allow you to close on the property? Could you rehab and rent? 

    I agree with Rob, that you should stop working with the agent and work directly with his employing broker. I don't see any bright outcome for this particular deal, and while you learned a lot, that doesn't help with the loss of cash if you terminate it. You may be able to file a claim with the state licensing board against your agent for not requesting the extension, although you have to be able to prove you asked for it. If it was a verbal request, you probably won't have much luck.

    Never sign anything without reading it or understanding it. Ask questions if you don't understand. Hiring an attorney costs money now, but can save you thousands down the road. I'm sorry your experience was bad. I wish I had more positive things to suggest.

  • Real Estate Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2010 · 39 posts · 5 votes
    11y

    @Erica Nagle

    i pm'd you the info, but not sure if it went thru, lemmie know if u got it

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    @Danny N.

    I didn't get the info.

  • Ray HurteauPro Member
    Developer · Boston, MA · Member since 2013 · 128 posts · 66 votes
    11y

    Agreeing with all the posters here.  Sorry for the tough lesson, which guru class did you take?

    We took the flipping boston class and it was not very helpful.

    I agree with the other posters that you might be SOL on this one with your EMD, but you defintiely don't want to close and lose even more money on a sour deal.

    If an agent gives you comps to justify ARV, always be sure you validate them. How much $/sq ft was the estimate of 125k? How did you find your contractors?

    Given the very short timeframe, it seems nearly impossible to make this work (but again, why try to make it work if you're going to lose money)?

    I'd see if there is some way to get some of the EMD back, rather than lose it all and the justification could be that the seller's attorney claims it's such a hot market, so putting the property back on and getting another offer should be simple, right? But given the response you posted, the attorney doesn't seem like one who will want to allow anything back. Never hurts to ask.

    Sorry for the tough lesson, feel free to connect or shoot any deal questions to me in the future - I'd be happy to act as a mentor in the future.  Don't give up!

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y
    1. @Ray H.

    Thanks! We may reach out to you in the future!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    11y

    I refuse to kick you while you're down or give you another I told you so! Too bad the knowledgeable and experienced sometimes also carry a switch.

    Just letting you know I feel your plight and know it's tough.  Bummers all around.  Please keep us posted.  A lot of us are on your side and want to see you succeed in the future and not give up @Erica Nagle!

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    Just letting you know I feel your plight and know it's tough.  Bummers all around.  Please keep us posted.  A lot of us are on your side and want to see you succeed in the future and not give up @Erica Nagle!

    Agreed.

    I think at this point walking on the deal and getting back some portion of the earnest money is probably you best(or least bad) outcome.

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    Another question, can they relist the property before the deposit situation is figured out? Or can we prolong the agreement so they are sitting on the house unless they pay us the deposit?

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2015 · 301 posts · 82 votes
    11y

    Where did you find your realtor? 

  • Real Estate Broker · Jacksonville, OR · Member since 2009 · 199 posts · 155 votes
    11y

    Oh boy!  Quite a tricky situation @Erica Juh

    Not legal advice.  I am not an attorney, no-sir-ee-bob!                  

    I have a few questions for you to get the answers for.  Find out from your attorney if the Seller is able to close a transaction with another Buyer, if their is an unresolved earnest money dispute.  Find out, because this can give you leverage to demand a refund, even if you are not really entitled to one.        

    If I was your Realtor, I would have seen your letter as a mistake, and would not want to deliver it.  You are essentially telling the Seller that for reasons that are not contingencies within your offer, you want out of your contract.  To me, this admission may disable you from getting your deposit back because you are naming reasons for renegotiation outside of your contingencies.  If your attorney could not find a reason for you to back out of the contract and get your deposit back, then and only then, would I be fine delivering your letter.  Obviously, if my client insisted I deliver such a letter, I would, after explaining my objections.  If, after hearing my objections they still wanted me to deliver it, fine.  

    The second question for you to get the answer.   Did the Seller provide a Property Disclosure Statement and identify the code issues to you (A disclosure is a 5-ish page document that the Seller can share all information they know about the property to you)?  if they didn't disclose the code issues, they could have some culpability.   That may have been your way out, depending on your disclosure review period and the date when you were provided the disclosures documents. OR did the Seller provide a disclaimer (a single page document that says......essentially, I know nothing about this property, you figure it out)?  In my State, if a disclaimer is provided instead of a disclosure, you may have the right to back out of the transaction up until closing (unless it is a foreclosure, which this doesn't sound like). You would have had to sign either a Seller Disclosure or a Seller Disclaimer, because your signature acknowledges receipt.  Your Realtor will know which one was provided, as he would have gotten it to you for signature.  if neither has been provided, that may be your ticket out as well.   This disclosure or disclaimer should detail your review period of that specific document.                              

    As far as being mad at your Realtor for not putting a due diligence period in your contract. Due diligence periods give you a reason to back out of a contract for ANY reason, so that is actually much more of a broad contingency than just an inspection period.  In a competitive situation, I can see why your Realtor did not assume you would want it in your contract if you were even waiving an inspection period, it would actually be counter-intuitive.      

    I don't believe the Seller would deny signing an extension, after all they want to close as agreed.  However, I can see they are not interested signing an extension if you just want to renegotiating the terms of the contract.  You made it clear in your letter that you are interested in renegotiating the price.  If they are not wiling to reduce the price, why would they feel inclined to extent their obligation to you?  It is not odd that your Agent has not gotten an extension signed, I can't imagine why the Seller would agree to an extension at this point.     

    Lastly, but maybe most importantly:  You are clearly uncomfortable with your Realtor.  Find another Realtor to discuss listing the home with (today), while you still have time to close.  Meet them at the house and ask them to tell you what they think they can sell it for once you complete your repairs and upgrades. You might be pleasantly surprised, and encouraged to move forward.              

    When you are new to flipping, you should not be writing high risk contracts. Start off feeling the water before jumping in. =). Meaning, start with inspection contingencies. Maybe ask for 5 days instead of 10, but still have them.         

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y
    Update! Looks like we're going to litigation. We tried to split the deposit with them and they said no. Apparently the seller's lawyer and one of the the two sellers (they are partners) are reasonable but the other partner is not. He's a PI and thinks he knows all these lawyers who will get them the money. We have a good lawyer and I'm much more confident in our stance. I hate to go to litigation but at this point we just don't want them to get it. We tried to be reasonable but they don't want to play nice so here we go.
  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Erica Nagle:
    Update! Looks like we're going to litigation. We tried to split the deposit with them and they said no. Apparently the seller's lawyer and one of the the two sellers (they are partners) are reasonable but the other partner is not. He's a PI and thinks he knows all these lawyers who will get them the money.

    We have a good lawyer and I'm much more confident in our stance. I hate to go to litigation but at this point we just don't want them to get it. We tried to be reasonable but they don't want to play nice so here we go.

    What is your attorney saying the basis of you case is?

    Based just on what you have posted I can't see what your legal argument would be unless you are claiming fraud and deliberate deception.  Did they threaten a MGL 93A claim for deceptive business practices and possible treble damages?

  • Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 114 posts · 107 votes
    11y

    I have no idea what an MGL 93A is but I haven't heard it mentioned.

  • Real Estate Broker · Jacksonville, OR · Member since 2009 · 199 posts · 155 votes
    11y

    @erica juhl what is the basis of your case for litigation? 

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