5 Ways Turnkey Companies Inflate Cash Flow Numbers

5 Ways Turnkey Companies Inflate Cash Flow Numbers

Rental Property Investor · Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 816 votes

Hi BP,

I see tons of investors interested in turnkey properties lately, so I wanted to share my experience analyzing these deals after buying 4 in the last 12 months.

After looking at maybe 100 or so properties, I can tell you that the vast majority of turnkey providers inflate their cash flow projections. I wouldn't say that they are outright lying, but definitely making a lot of the deals seem better than what they are. 

Here are the top 5 things you should watch out for:

  1. Vacancy too low. I don't think 2-5% vacancy rates that I usually see are realistic, especially for B and C class areas where a lot of these properties are located. I use 10%+ for most of the properties I run numbers on.
  2. Small maintenance/cap-ex allotments. Once again, many turnkey properties are in lower quality neighborhoods, which attract lower quality tenants that do not take care of the units. Plus, many homes are old (some are just too old), so thinking your maintenance will be 2-5% is just naive (that's only $240-600 per year with $1,000 rent!). Cap-ex is usually omitted all-together.
  3. Using past year property tax values. In most counties, when you buy a property, it will get re-assessed at something close to your purchase price and your taxes will go up. Also, if there were any owner-occupied exceptions or discounts, they will disappear. Don't just look at the previous year tax value, use your purchase price and the tax rate to calculate what your actual taxes will be.
  4. Omitting vacancy the first year. Vacancy can happen any time. I had to evict one of my tenants 2 months after purchasing one the turnkeys. I don't see why you would not count vacancy in the first year, along with every single year afterwards.
  5. Inflated rental income increases. I see rental income increases as high as 5%/year on some turnkey websites. Again, unrealistic for most areas. There are cities that have had flat rents for years, or a 1-2% increase/year. If you have to depend on this increase to make the property cash flow, it's probably not a good deal.

The bottom line is you should always run your own numbers using whatever tool that works best for you. If they come out more or less the same as the turnkey company's website - that's great, you know that they are actually honest and realistic.

But if not, at least you will not be surprised or disappointed 10 years from now, like I've seen in some cases because you were realistic up-front.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
10y

Anton  part of it is keeping up with the Jone's  if abc turn key presents their product with blue sky it makes the others compare apples to apples.

easy napkin math is simply 40 to 50% of rent will go to long term ownership. you may do better you may do worse but if you use 45% for instance it would give you a pretty good idea how it will perform over the long haul. this works good for 800 to 1200 dollar rents.. if your buying D class with 600 rents this number is probably WAY low

this type of thing is soup de Jour with commerical brokers selling Multi family.. they only present the best case scenario its up to the buyer to do their own reality check

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  • Investor · Downers Grove, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 955 votes
    10y

    good post @Anton Ivanov

    Where are your TK at? 

    I believed most of their target market are NOT targeted towards real estate investors but for people who wanted a better return on their money.

    For people looking for TK houses, it is important to know your exit strategy and time frame. If these TK houses are in C/D neighborhoods, it could be tough to resell them if you needed to get out. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 816 votes
    10y

    @Chris T.

    I have turnkeys in Atlanta and Birmingham.

    Well if you're buying property, then you're a real estate investor. I would say that most turnkey buyers are looking for cash flow, so many turnkey sellers probably feel the pressure to show properties with the highest cash flow possible.

    Unfortunately, after a certain point the numbers just become unrealistic.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    Anton  part of it is keeping up with the Jone's  if abc turn key presents their product with blue sky it makes the others compare apples to apples.

    easy napkin math is simply 40 to 50% of rent will go to long term ownership. you may do better you may do worse but if you use 45% for instance it would give you a pretty good idea how it will perform over the long haul. this works good for 800 to 1200 dollar rents.. if your buying D class with 600 rents this number is probably WAY low

    this type of thing is soup de Jour with commerical brokers selling Multi family.. they only present the best case scenario its up to the buyer to do their own reality check

  • South Bend, IN · Member since 2014 · 318 posts · 156 votes
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    I like the easy math. I bet this comes from your experience both personally on your own units and what you have seen as a lender?

  • Rental Property Investor · Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 816 votes
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs @Account Closed

    As much as I respect your experience in the industry, I've personally found the 50% rule (or any other rough estimate methods) to be misleading. I would myself never buy a property based on these rules and don't think they are much useful beyond doing an extremely rough estimate or comparison.

    I just see way too many people rely on them as their exclusive method of analyzing rental projections and end up purchasing poor properties because they didn't take the time to research and run the numbers with actual operating expenses that they will incur.

  • South Bend, IN · Member since 2014 · 318 posts · 156 votes
    10y

    @Anton Ivanov

    To clarify my comment and what I understood from @Jay Hinrichs this was "napkin math".........to see if you have initial interest before pulling out the big analysis guns and poring over details.

    I agree with you that you cannot rely on the rough estimate exclusively. It has a lot of assumptions that need to be clarified but it is a good conservative starting point.

  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Get the help of a real investor to check your numbers. Also some good properties are just going to have things come up.
  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    We really don't need napkin math when we all have cell phones that can load various apps such as financial calculators and the like.

    Speaking of which @Anton Ivanov, nifty little app.

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    No, they are outright lying. They've all done enough deals to know what the real numbers are, but the real numbers don't line their pockets with cash. There's no such think as stretching the truth or exaggerating when it comes to playing with some one else's money. Inflating rents, overly optimistic vacancy rates and repair expenses are nothing more than lies and when they take someone's money based on those lies they are stealing.

  • South Bend, IN · Member since 2014 · 318 posts · 156 votes
    10y

    @Chris Mason

    Don't be so hard on the humble old napkin....if napkins could talk, they would probably tell stories of multi million dollar deals that were put together on them.

    Besides, there is no app that you can calculate deals on that can also multi-task to wipe the barbecue sauce off of your mouth :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 816 votes
    10y

    @Aaron Mazzrillo

    I wouldn't necessarily call them lies because a lot of the assumptions are hard to quantify and difference investors like to use different numbers based on their preferences or experience. For example, I'm usually very conservative with my maintenance, so I may use 10-15% or gross rent for each house. Somebody else may look at that and say that's way too much and something like 8% is more realistic.

    I do agree with you that most of the turnkey sellers have seen enough properties in their markets, so they know what numbers will be more accurate, but don't usually use them on their websites. 

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Anton Ivanov:

    @Aaron Mazzrillo

    I wouldn't necessarily call them lies because a lot of the assumptions are hard to quantify and difference investors like to use different numbers based on their preferences or experience. For example, I'm usually very conservative with my maintenance, so I may use 10-15% or gross rent for each house. Somebody else may look at that and say that's way too much and something like 8% is more realistic.

    I do agree with you that most of the turnkey sellers have seen enough properties in their markets, so they know what numbers will be more accurate, but don't usually use them on their websites. 

    Anyone who has owned properties long term, knows real cash flow on a free & clear house is about 50% of the gross rent. Capex does significant damage to years and years of cash flow. This has been the summer of hot water heaters and air condition units for me. Thousands and thousands of dollars spent (reinvested?) into just a few of my properties that had very unexpected expensive maintenance issues. One year a month vacancy is 8.33%. I may go several years with no vacancy, but the tenant eventually moves out, I need to take care of deferred maintenance, then advertise and find a new tenant. That tenant will most likely need to give notice, so 2 to 3 months could easily slip away. Rental markets are not always hot and although there may be low vacancy rates today, a short term financials approach to anything having to do with rentals is a guaranteed formula for losing money. These turnkey sellers know it, but they gloss over repairs and vacancy.

  • Clayton MobleyPro Member
    Birmingham, AL · Member since 2014 · 875 posts · 947 votes
    10y

    @Anton Ivanov Thanks for your post. A lot of what you listed seems to be in line with the big concerns about TK everywhere.  Now I am not saying your list is in any way incorrect, because I see these, let's call them 'discrepancies', with TK companies as well. However, I do notice that these companies tend to have two things in common - bargain basement properties and pricing and suuuper aggressive marketing - which means investors can be on alert for those red flags and avoid a lot of headache.  Whenever some new outfit comes along promising 30% returns on $40k properties, with no actual office, a 'minimalist' website, and a waiting period just to schedule a call, wait a day or two for all the pros to come out for a collective eye roll. Sadly, a lot of people get caught up in the hype.

    A lot of investors, new investors especially, get drawn to whatever REI they can get the most of for the least money (because they understandably want to get a jump start on something they are excited about), which means a lot of so-called turnkey outfits will try to out-price each other to get the sale. And when you fight for price like that, it means cutting corners - investing in low-tier/high-risk areas and/or skimping on rehab. These issues lead to your first two bullet points - too low vacancy and capex/maintenance. Companies that buy low-end properties in less than desirable areas are going to have trouble keeping good tenants long-term. Companies that don't do sufficient rehab are going to encounter capex sooner than later. A company that does both is not worth your time to begin with. These companies also seem to downplay or omit entirely the necessity of having adequate reserves for when there is a capex issue. A good provider will be upfront about the fact that all properties will need some major repair or replacement at some point down the line - even investing in a brand new build only delays the inevitable - so having back-up funds available to handle that is important.

    However, these massive red flags should disqualify a turnkey company long before investment if due diligence is done properly. While, if you've ever seen my posts, you'll know that I harp on how important it is for a TK company to have data-driven metrics for investor analysis, in this situation, you don't really even need them. A 10k property, even with 40k of rehab (which most TK companies don't do) is still a 10k property because of the neighborhood, comps, residency, crime etc.  TK companies in C and D areas are almost never a good choice - money can be made in those areas but you really need to be an experienced investor, on the ground, with a solid rehab team, knowledge of Section 8 regs, and the patience and time to be a landlord. If you invest in a TK  C or D prop (esp out of state) you're going to deal with vacancy, big move outs or evictions, late rents, government bureaucracy (if you take Section 8) and virtually no appreciation potential. You just can't get a quality TK investment for $40-50k because the underlying value of the property isn't there. It'll always be worth $10k and you'll have the tenancy headaches on top of all that sunken cost.

    With regard to points 4 and 5, I guess I can't believe anyone invests with a TK company that claims no vacancy in the first year (but of course they do). Not that a good property can't or won't be occupied all year, but rather that a good analysis should include all potential expenses. We always include vacancy in our calcs, with a rate based on our most recent 52-weeks of data plus a little padding. Same goes for rental income increases. I'd shy away from anyone that tries to convince people they can predict the future or guarantee occupancy/value - it's one reason you hear veteran TK people talk about cash flow and equity vs appreciation, you just can't know what a property value will do over time and betting everything on the chance of appreciation is risky. So for a company to give you pro forma ROI calcs based on increasing rents (and the assumption that they will have regular tenancy with those rates) seems....bold.

    Jay made a good point about the apples-to-apples nature of TK. It is unfortunate, but a lot of investors do gravitate towards the biggest, shiniest, numbers. So if every other company puts out numbers that omit certain factors, then the one company that doesn't looks less profitable and rarely gets a chance to explain why. This is exactly they reason our property jackets are so long. They have three interactive spreadsheets: one that shows the apples-to-apples 'standard' ROI calc that excludes vacancy and maintenance like everyone else, one that shows cash 15-year financed ROI, and a third that shows 30-year financed ROI. The second two include all expenses and amortization tables to show how equity is built as tenants pay down the notes. Neither formula uses increasing rents, so any increase is icing on the cake. Maintenance and vacancy are both based on 52-weeks of data plus padding. We also pad the PM rate just to keep things conservative (not because it will go up later). Of course, maintenance and vacancy both fluctuate year to year, so one year you may genuinely not have any expenses and cash flow will be higher than the estimate, but have a lot the next which hurts your margin, so using a rolling average of our most recent data helps us keep our ROI estimates as accurate as they can be without a crystal ball. Of course, we understand (and are upfront about) the fact that our maintenance rate may go up in the coming years as our portfolio ages and capex issues come up, but it should still stay below 3.5% based on the life of the upgrades we do and the age of our properties, so still below the 4% we use on the property jackets. It's low because we only invest in B/B+ properties in good areas, do everything in-house, and overhaul our rehabs with new floors, new HVAC, new roofs etc. We also live and work in the market we invest in, so we know where rental demand is and where it isn't, which areas/schools districts draw long-term tenants looking for a home, etc., and we have the marketing and networking infrastructure to place vetted tenants swiftly (often a big issue for self-managed props). A lot of these so-called TK companies seem to be little more than out of state marketers who are trying to fatten their margins by having no overheads (read: no office to visit in the city they are marketing). You should be able to visit any provider you consider and lay eyes on the property, tour the town, spend the day or the weekend. If that's not an option for some reason (no office, property and provider in different states, provider doesn't have time), look elsewhere.

    Our current 52-week rolling maintenance rate is 2.6% and our occupancy is 96.5%. This isn't a pitch, it's a demonstration of the fact that TK companies that do things well and focus on quality instead of cutting costs to chase a sale can genuinely produce the numbers you referenced, but they can't just be pulled out of thin air and they almost never can be achieved in lower-tier areas. We aren't the cheapest investment available and we don't aim to be. The focus is value and service, not beating the competition to the bottom. Good properties attract good tenants that stay longer and treat properties better. Again, TK companies that operate in C/D areas just can't realistically offer the same. We are not the only ones that do things this way, but it does seem the industry is overwhelmed by the less scrupulous, perhaps because they have the loudest marketing. Maybe that's another thing to add to the red flag list: hyped up marketing with a 'lowest price in town, will sell out FAST' message.

    In the end, I'd say what you have there is a good set of criteria for eliminating potential TK companies. And truthfully, you will weed out 99% of the industry this way. People seem to think becoming a TK provider is a great way to make a quick buck, but few people realize that both parties need to make money and be satisfied, for the long-term, or the whole thing will implode. That's why you don't see reputable, stable companies in the TK space listing properties with lost of !!!!! or hyping "INSANE" cash flow in low-tier areas. It's about passive income, equity building through tenant pay-down, portfolio building, and reliability. Not get-rich-quick schemes. TK is for long-term investors looking for reliable passive income who are willing to put in the effort necessary (and it's plenty) to determine which provider they are comfortable doing business with for the next 10+ years.

    Your post makes one last really good point, which is that you should ALWAYS run your own numbers. Not only should every investor do their own due diligence and their own math (not just napkin math, though that is useful for weeding out a lot of options) but they should have a ton of questions for any TK provider they consider and they should expect swift, data-based answers and a level of customer service that means that if they want to get on the phone and go through the math step by step, someone will happily do so in a timely manner. I've droned on a lot about that in other posts, so I'll leave it at that ;)

    TK is certainly not for everyone, and there are sadly plenty of people out there looking to take advantage, but I always have to jump in to speak up for the good guys ;) Though, from some of the horror stories I've seen, I can certainly understand the sentiment and I'm sorry your TK experience has left you with a sour taste in your mouth. Your post is a great reminder to anyone considering TK that they need to do their due diligence before pulling the trigger.

    Sorry for the monster post - my greatest BP weakness! If you have any questions about what I've said or would like to take a look at the property jackets I mentioned just to see the math for yourself, just shoot me a message any time. 

    Best of luck!

    Clayton

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    There is no magic to investing in turnkey properties. The return will be less than average due to the way they are operated but any well educated investor knows better than to rely on their prospectus. That is simply advertising and we all know how honest advertising is. If they gave honest projections of return who would invest.

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Your #3 might be true for some markets but not for some.  In Memphis it is common to say buy property from a TK provider and have the tax appraised value be $15-$25k lower then what you paid for it so you are paying taxes on a lesser value.  Bc of the sales comps in many neighborhoods with investor activity, I dont see the actual tax appraised value coming up to what an investor will pay for a home for a long time to come if ever.  I have heard the Atlanta market is like how you describe where you pay taxes on the amount you paid for the home from day 1.

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Alex CraigBusiness Member
    Real Estate Professional · Memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Curt Davis and our taxes are frozen for 3 year periods.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 816 votes
    10y

    @Chris Mason

    Thanks, I'm glad you like it!

    @Clayton Mobley

    I agree with pretty much everything you say and you're 100% correct - there are very well established turnkey companies out there who are reaslitic with their numbers and don't try to win business by padding their cash flow.

    But at the same time, I wouldn't say that the ones who do inflate their numbers are necessarily new companies. I've seen some very well established ones do this routinely for years and people still seem to trust them.

    @Curt Davis

    I'm not familiar with every state's property tax laws, so I can see how #3 may not be as critical in some areas. I listed it so people are aware of two things. 

    First, is that without checking the tax records, you have no way of knowing when the home was last appraised for and for how much. It could have been owned by the same person for 10 years before the turnkey company bought it and its assessment may be out of date.

    Second, if the home was owner-occupied before the turnkey company bought it, which is often the case, many counties that I've come across offer some type of property tax reduction based on that. As an investor, you will not longer receive it.

  • Clayton MobleyPro Member
    Birmingham, AL · Member since 2014 · 875 posts · 947 votes
    10y

    @Anton Ivanov Sadly, you are right. I suppose those of us that are trying to keep the turnkey name out of the mud just sort of hope those people will eventually get weeded out because investors will stop falling for it... Anyway, thanks for great post and the vote!

  • Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 222 posts · 121 votes
    10y

    Interesting thread!  I do believe that your turnkey real estate success all depends on where the properties are, what tenants are placed (how they are screened), and your overall expectations. 

    Granted, if you expect to retire off of a couple rental properties in just a couple years, you're a little far fetched.  Real estate investing takes a lot of due dilligence and studying.  When you are paired up with the right people who truly care about your success, your experience can be great.  I have seen a few, what seem like very small details, play a huge role in the success of investors.  

    Like I said already, the #1 thing that will play a part in your success is your expectations! Be realistic. #2 - pair with a company that is in it WITH you for the long haul and takes measures to prove that. (i.e. screen tenants thoroughly, in-house pm, maintenance warranties, easy to contact, good communication, knowledgable) #3 - Get excited about the opportunities that you are providing for your self, your future self, the community you are investing in, and your peers who are all watching and learning from you.  

    Real estate investing is fun!  Along with making a return on investment, if you stay open to it, you will meet more people and open up even more opportunities with even bigger returns.  Stay humble, my BP friends!  The more you give - the more you receive. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 816 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    Interesting thread!  I do believe that your turnkey real estate success all depends on where the properties are, what tenants are placed (how they are screened), and your overall expectations. 

    Granted, if you expect to retire off of a couple rental properties in just a couple years, you're a little far fetched.  Real estate investing takes a lot of due dilligence and studying.  When you are paired up with the right people who truly care about your success, your experience can be great.  I have seen a few, what seem like very small details, play a huge role in the success of investors.  

    Like I said already, the #1 thing that will play a part in your success is your expectations! Be realistic. #2 - pair with a company that is in it WITH you for the long haul and takes measures to prove that. (i.e. screen tenants thoroughly, in-house pm, maintenance warranties, easy to contact, good communication, knowledgable) #3 - Get excited about the opportunities that you are providing for your self, your future self, the community you are investing in, and your peers who are all watching and learning from you.  

    Real estate investing is fun!  Along with making a return on investment, if you stay open to it, you will meet more people and open up even more opportunities with even bigger returns.  Stay humble, my BP friends!  The more you give - the more you receive. 

    Well said, very good points!
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