Cash out refi to purchase multi family investment

Cash out refi to purchase multi family investment

San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes

My wife and I bought a home in Clairemont (San Diego) back in 2011 for $330,000. Now it's probably worth close to $550-600k. I'm trying to get my foot in the door to invest in real estate. The option I have now is pulling equity out and finding a multi family unit somewhere south of the 8 (where it's more affordable). My problem is convincing my wife that using the cash out refi towards an investment property rather than remodeling the kitchen would be a better thing to do. I currently have a 30 year fixed VA loan at 2.75%. If I pull the cash out 100-125k it will increase our mortgage ~$600 more a month and the rate I'd be at is 3.75% (depending when I lock it in). Now the broker I'm working with says I could always buy it down to 3.5 or even 3%. I think I agree with him on this. The problem though is now I need at least 25% down on an multifamily (which would eat the cash out) plus finding a property that has renters who are paying enough rent to compensate for the increase at my primary. I feel it's best to get started investing in my backyard first and become more familiar with all the processes. However, San Diego, as I'm sure you know, is a tough market. Should I just forget about starting here and look elsewhere? Do you have any advice on trying to get started here? Is my plan flawed? Should I pull equity out now and sit on it? If I pull equity out now before the market softens Ill get more at lower interest rates but if I wait until it turns downward then I risk a higher interest rate and less equity. If I pull it out now and wait then I will eat it until I think the timing is right and don't think that's a good idea. I apologize for the long-winded message. I'm just trying to find some answers and to get in the game. Thank you for your time.

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Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y

@Nicholas Baughman Nicholas if you have ever read the book Rich Dad Poor Dad you will know that there is good debt. (Cash our refi and reinvest. ) And bad debt. (Cash out refi and install a new kitchen.) A new kitchen is not an investment. It will increase the value of your home but usually not dollar for dollar. You will enjoy the new kitchen and you cant put a value on that of course.

As long as you and your wife get on the same page and you make the right choices in your RE investments then I am all for cash out refi and reinvest. I own an extensive portfolio in PGH PA and I buy 5 properties a month but I say that not to impress you but to let you know its taken me 25 years to get to this point and I have taken a lot of wrong roads and made a lifetime full of mistakes.

Take you time and make sure its the right investment and you cant go wrong.

Also one more thing. Happy Wife Happy Life LOL. There in lies the real dilemma 

Best Wishes

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  • Investor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman Nicholas if you have ever read the book Rich Dad Poor Dad you will know that there is good debt. (Cash our refi and reinvest. ) And bad debt. (Cash out refi and install a new kitchen.) A new kitchen is not an investment. It will increase the value of your home but usually not dollar for dollar. You will enjoy the new kitchen and you cant put a value on that of course.

    As long as you and your wife get on the same page and you make the right choices in your RE investments then I am all for cash out refi and reinvest. I own an extensive portfolio in PGH PA and I buy 5 properties a month but I say that not to impress you but to let you know its taken me 25 years to get to this point and I have taken a lot of wrong roads and made a lifetime full of mistakes.

    Take you time and make sure its the right investment and you cant go wrong.

    Also one more thing. Happy Wife Happy Life LOL. There in lies the real dilemma 

    Best Wishes

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Alex Deacon I agree with you wholeheartedly. LOL Thanks for your input. 

  • Real Estate Agent · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 16 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman based on your situation why don't you utilize a HELOC from your primary residence. That way you will have the money ready to go when you find a deal, but will not be paying for the loan when not using it. This method would provide you with the 25% down and if you make some repairs to increase the value and then refi in 3 months to pay off a majority of the HELOC.

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Nick Kravchuk I've considered that too but I'm not sure I'd get the 25% I need down. Then the con is if I do I'd, like you said, would need to basically refi or flip the property to pay off the HELOC before rates would increase. It's kind of hard finding a multi family that would appreciate that much too.

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    @nick Baughman

    I am pro San Diego RE buy n hold investing but the market goes in cycles.  Trying to time the market is very difficult.  

    What does this mean for you?   It means make sure you have the means to withstand a possible downturn like the last housing crisis.  No one knows what the market will do in the short term (it could continue to appreciate, stagnate, or depreciate) but I am confident that in the long term the market will continue to appreciate.   Why do i have this confidence?   Because for over 50 years long term it has appreciated.  There is finite supply but seems like infinite demand (almost anyone would love to live here). 

    Good luck with whatever choice you make.  

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Dan H. I agree with you. That's why it's important to find positive cash flow on a rental to withstand a downturn. I'll buy and hold the property as long as I can or use it to find upgrades. To be honest, I'm a little scared and need to just pull the trigger. My wife is worried if things go wrong we'd lose our primary we've worked so hard on. I try to reassure that's not going to happen (it would be an extremely worse case scenario). I need her to start educating herself on real estate so she can have the knowledge I've been working hard to obtain. I bought her Rich Mom. Poor Mom for Mother's Day hoping that might add some insight. LOL 

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman

    The last housing crisis I did not experience any rent depreciation but 1) it does not mean the next one will not have rent depreciation 2) if rents stagnate but other costs increase the cash flow decreases.   So while I have not experienced it personally, it is possible that a cash flowing property ceases to cash flow (there are many locations where rent has depreciated).  Basically the Boy Scout Motto: Be Brepared!

    Seems like you are doing proper due diligence and therefore are likely educated enough to know this, but ... I have seen a lot of newbies forget various expenses when working numbers.  In San Diego Cap expenses are huge.

    Some Newbies think if rent > PITI then it cash flows. There are misc expenses (gardeners, water, electricity, etc.), vacancies (I use 5% and have not hit 5% any year yet), maintenance, and the big one - cap expense. In my ROI projections I use cap expense estimates between $250/month (attached, 2/1) to $300/month (detached 4/2 - my largest rental unit). Many may believe that I am being conservative but I believe my numbers to be more accurate than most other San Diego RE investors primarily because I have taken the time (a few years ago) to fill in a spreadsheet with life spans and expected San Diego costs. In addition, I have seen the more experience the San Diego buy n hold RE investor has, the higher cap expense numbers they use. That is because they have been hit by a large cap expense (my worse: $28K foundation issues, $28K can eat up a lot of cash flow).

    Good luck

  • Shawn CouchBusiness Member
    Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2013 · 116 posts · 48 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman, why not get the best refi you can on the house so you have a full VA entitlement ready to go. Maybe take a little cash out for the kitchen, and do some upgrades, and try to do some of the work yourself. You don't literally need to swing the hammer, but if you find the pieces you want and coordinate the install directly, you can save some money. Make sure you do the math on the rate buy down to see if it truly makes sense.

    Then use your VA to buy a new "Primary residence" that consists of the 2-4 units that you want to buy. I have looked at this scenario for a few other vets, and I believe it is feasible. You can rent your current primary residence for a year, then decide to move back in for family/school or many other reasons. Then you have a highly levered SD rental property being paid for by your Tenants. Pay extra on this mortgage to increase the equity and lower the risk. Do a Conventional refi when you can, rinse and repeat.

    Good luck.

  • Zack KarpPro Member
    Lender · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 834 posts · 774 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman

    Heloc all day long. Do not refi that mortgage at 2.75%. Do not pay to buy down the rate on a VA refi, no matter what your broker who is looking out for his paycheck tells you. The ONLY reason to refi that existing mortgage is to go Conventional to free up your VA entitlement if you want to buy another home as a primary residence. Period. Unless VA rates dip back down to around 3.25% with no points. Then there's a conversation to be had if it's worth it.

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    This is really great advice. I haven't really considered the HELOC but I think I'll look in to it more. There's definitely pros and cons to both. My question about a HELOC though is can you acquire as much out on one as you could a cash out refi? Are there any places that do more than 75% LTV? Also, when I decide to do either one, does anybody know if it will become more difficult to finance the investment property since I will have one of these two loan options out?

  • Investor · Champaign-Urbana, IL · Member since 2014 · 84 posts · 49 votes
    9y

    I realize this is mostly about real estate investments such as rental homes, condos, etc, but with such a sizeable amount of cash available if you cash out refi, have you considered other options besides a rental property?  For example, one of the guys I work with purchased a laundromat last year.  He is stationed with me in California, but purchased this laundromat out of state and hired someone to manage it for him.  I believe his down payment was right around $100K and the monthly cash flow is 5X the cash flow he'd get from a rental property.  That said, he does also have some rental properties, especially for the tax benefits.  I have another guy I worked with at a previous duty station; this spring he purchased a Storage Rental business.  It's a small mom and pop location that is also out of state from where he lives and is also managed by someone else.  Myself, I only own residential rental properties, but in the future I plan to follow in their footsteps and expand to commercial real estate investing.  Just food for thought.

  • Investor · Champaign-Urbana, IL · Member since 2014 · 84 posts · 49 votes
    9y

    Now, to address your question about residential real estate. I definitely agree you need to try to educate your wife on the benefits of REI. I also agree that SD buy and holds can be a good purchase. That said, finding a property that cash flows in SD is difficult. You'll need to look off market and find properties that need extensive rehabbing so you can buy it cheap and bring the value up through the rehab, while still not spending more than 80% of the After Market Value to try and leave enough room for cash flow (plus it gives you immediate equity in your new property). I personally own a duplex in SD and I'm looking to buy another property also in SD this summer. However, as much as I believe in SD's future, I am not putting all my eggs in one basket. I also own two other rental properties out of state and within the next year I'm purchasing two more out of state. All of these will cash flow better than my SD property, but may not appreciate in the long term as well. My point is, if your mind is set on buying a rental property my suggestion would be to use your money to put a downpayment on 3-4 'B' neighborhood properties out of state. There are some cities that are currently good buy and hold investment regions. Many cities have local turn key companies that can help make this process for you relatively simple. Personally I'm still debating whether I want to use a turn key company or try and find my own team. With a turn key company your profits will be reduced because you'll end up paying more for the property, but you'll save a lot of time and experience much less stress (especially as a brand new investor). Just be sure to shop around if you decide to use a turn key company because from what I've seen, some are basically worthless.

    In any case, good luck getting your wife on board and good luck with your investments.

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Fabio Salas I know you don't want to give away all your secrets but what out of state turn key markets are you looking at? 

  • Investor · Champaign-Urbana, IL · Member since 2014 · 84 posts · 49 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman I have a lot of family in St Louis, MO and Dallas, TX, so the main cities I'm looking at for turn key are:  Dallas, TX; Houston, TX; Kansas City, MO; and Chicago, IL.

    I've considered Detroit because I keep reading a lot about the rebound the city is trying to make, but I'm not sure I'm ready to take a risk there quite yet.  Maybe in a few years.

  • Investor · Lakewood, OH · Member since 2016 · 203 posts · 191 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman

    What about an interest-only HELOC? You won't have to pay on the principal for 5 - 10 years depending on the type of line you decide on.

    This way you can finance the HELOC with solid investments you've made over the next 5 - 10 years.

    It's all about OPM! 

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Cary F. I'm assuming interest only HELOCs are low interest? Like what? 2%? That's the first time I've heard of that. Can you give me an example? Also, pardon my naivety but what is OPM? In my current field of work we have ORM (operational risk management) and OPM is Office of Personnel Management. Haha. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Naperville, IL · Member since 2013 · 402 posts · 177 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman OPM = Other people's money........ Most HELOC's are interest only, which means you are only required to pay the interest due each month. However, keep in mind that the principle amount is going to have to be paid eventually, but like @Cary F. said, not for 5-10 years, so by that time, with the right investment, you shouldn't have a problem doing so. Good luck!!

  • Investor · Lakewood, OH · Member since 2016 · 203 posts · 191 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman @Josh Mitchell

    Nope...  Interest only means INTEREST ONLY payments. Principal payback will not be required until the note matures in 5 - 10 years. I know Josh already addressed this...  But this really is huge for investors.

    So take what the amount you use on the HELOC, then calculate what you'll owe every month by multiplying the principal by the already low interest rate, and then divide the number by 12. The payment size will be shockingly low for many years. To be more clear:

    Interest Only Monthly Payment = (HELOC Balance x APR Interest Rate)/12

    And as I said before..  By the time the principal is due in 5 - 10 years, you could have flipped 5 - 10 houses or bought 100 units, all of which can easily finance your principal repayment and hopefully more.

    The HELOC is a serious weapon for real estate investors and I would recommend looking into it.

    Thanks!

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    Wow! This is why I love BP. I really appreciate the sound, organic advice that's not filled with trying to get people to buy something or join them in order to get answers. Thank you all. If anyone has anything more to add I'm always open to hearing it. 

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    9y
    Nicholas Baughman How are you getting a rate of 3.75% on a multi family. I'm doing a cash out refinance on a duplex and I'm getting a top rate of 4.75% and I'm not paying any points. If I were to get a primary residence interest rate on a 30 year conventional loan no points the best I can do is 3.75. Multi families are usually 1% more than a primary home.
  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Marcus Johnson:

    Nicholas Baughman
    How are you getting a rate of 3.75% on a multi family. I'm doing a cash out refinance on a duplex and I'm getting a top rate of 4.75% and I'm not paying any points. If I were to get a primary residence interest rate on a 30 year conventional loan no points the best I can do is 3.75. Multi families are usually 1% more than a primary home.

    Freddie has some programs for multifamily that are under 4.  I just got a quote on a $3m loan (on a $4m building) that was 4.04% or something.  10 year fixed, 30 year am. 

    That's way less than the 5.75% I have on my primary home (which I can't refi due to the way my taxes are done)

  • Zack KarpPro Member
    Lender · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 834 posts · 774 votes
    9y

    @Nicholas Baughman

    Many banks will go up to 90% CLTV. TCF, PNC, and US Bank all do. You can expect a rate in the 4% - 6% range, depending on credit score, CLTV, credit line amount, etc. Stay away from the majors (Chase, Wells, BofA) as they are more conservative and only go 80% max and usually higher rates. Local ma & pa banks are the best though. Establish a relationship, and a heloc can sometimes lead to other lending opportunities down the road if you have any business/commercial/investor lending needs.

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y

    @Marcus Johnson I'm not getting 3.75% on a loan for the investment property. I'm getting, or close to, that on a cash out refi. My intention was to then use that cash towards the 25% down I needed to fund the investment property. The new note on the investment property could have rates of 4-6% depending on who I use to finance it. That's why I need to compensate for the increase of my primary interest, from 2.75 to 3.75ish, which will increase my mortgage about $600 (worse case). Then to roll the added expense from that increase in to the investment property to see how much cash flow I actually have (minus other expenses of course). Now, from my understanding, the HELOC won't effect my awesome rate I have on primary and I could calculate that towards the investment property a little easier.

  • Nicholas BaughmanPro Member
    OP
    San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 20 votes
    9y
    So, talking with some local lenders tonight they suggest a VA cash out refi. I'm waiting on the numbers back from one of them. However, they pointed out that using all of the HELOC as your down towards an investment property would negatively effect my credit. Meaning, exhausting the entire line would show a huge amount of revolving debt. This would make it harder to acquire other loans. Plus, you have the rate uncertainty to deal with when factoring in the net income form said property. So now I'm leaning back to the VA refi cash out because I know what my rate will be at and can easily determine my operating costs along with PITI in order to see if the deal is profitable. Furthermore, the HELOC may make it harder to get the new loan on the investment property. So I'm having the lenders determine what is the likelihood of me being able to roll the refi in to the new investment property loan all at once. Does that make sense? Plus, this particular lender does a 90% LTV on a Cash out VA refi whereas most HELOCS are at 80. Although I hope I don't have to use that much, there is that option.
  • Investor · Fremont, CA · Member since 2015 · 50 posts · 16 votes
    9y

    What I see is that, HELOC interest rates are much higher compared to the interest rate for 1st mortgage. Has anyone seen HELOC interest rates closer to 1st mortgage rates.

    This is another factor to consider whether to use HELOC or cash out through 1st mortgage

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