Flipping to support my buy and holds habit

Flipping to support my buy and holds habit

Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes

I decided last year to embark on a different strategy than my normal buy and hold investment strategy given that the market for buy and holds in California has become a lot more difficult where we have seen CAP rates move to less than 4 in some areas (San Francisco, Bay area) and only 6-7 in sub markets such as Sacramento and Stockton.

The math has been pretty straight forward. Flipping California properties 200-500 acquisition price points with normalized net returns of 15% has allowed us to capture between 30k-75K per project average to around 52.5K per project. This approximately gave us 250K to buy a passive purchase all cash and not have to worry about the interest payments, giving us the option of cash out refinancing or keeping our powder dry for other future acquisitions.

I most interesting thing about this decision though is it has change the mindset of my previous investment strategy. Moving to a dedicated flip 5, buy 1 buy strategy,  help me move away from a "transactional" mindset , flipping with no goal other than to increase the size and volume of flips (which was becoming exhausting) to a grower mindset. The flip 5 , buy 1 strategy has allowed me to take my profits off the table while intentional growing my passive income stream and reducing my portfolio risk. By planting these fixed seeds that are and continue to pay dividend, it stabilized my income flows and concurrently allowed me to build up reserves for additional purchases. 

We are currently working on 3 flips in california and 2 in florida right now and will be heading out of state for our next buy and hold. I am excited about this mental shift and it has been a refreshing way to change the transactional mindset that flipping had become. 

Free Advice: Create two LLC's one for flipping and one for your passive as this will prevent domino effect if one aspect fails and make sure you setup proper firewalls to prevent commingling funds.

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Investor · Roseville, CA · Member since 2016 · 893 posts · 1k+ votes
8y

@Drew Y.  I don't know if I'm more impressed with you on an elephant or this really cool investing strategy, but either way, wanted to just say well done!  

I know of many people getting into REI using wholesaling as a capital growth strategy but that's not for me and I think I would really enjoy this specific strategy you are talking about here to be honest. Mindset and goals are everything and when the numbers can lay the course you are gold!

Great job once again!  

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  • Investor · Roseville, CA · Member since 2016 · 893 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Drew Y.  I don't know if I'm more impressed with you on an elephant or this really cool investing strategy, but either way, wanted to just say well done!  

    I know of many people getting into REI using wholesaling as a capital growth strategy but that's not for me and I think I would really enjoy this specific strategy you are talking about here to be honest. Mindset and goals are everything and when the numbers can lay the course you are gold!

    Great job once again!  

  • Rental Property Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2015 · 208 posts · 94 votes
    8y

    Drew - I love this intentional strategy around your flip to buy and hold ratio. You're in a tough market and still making it work for you....well done. 

    Care to share where your out of state investments will be located? 

    Thanks and looking forward to following your journey!

  • Rental Property Investor · Crozet, VA · Member since 2016 · 44 posts · 31 votes
    8y

    Hi Drew, I have been crunching the numbers and running the projections for my grand entrance into REI early next year in Texas, and basically came to a similar conclusion to flip for cash and buy-n-hold for longer term equity buildup. Although i have reasonable amount of cash to get this business off the ground, i just struggled to get the numbers to work (ie sufficient cash flow from buy and holds to support my life without a W2 job).

    I was felt quite relieved when i came to this realization and that also took some of the pressure off in finding the 'home run' deals for buy-hold. It goes without saying that the flips need to work but i strongly agree with this approach, especially in today's market.  I really appreciated you sharing this info which helped to confirm this strategy workable.  

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Christina J. I am currently buying my buy and holds in Sacramento, CA market and also in Minneapolis, MN. I like these place for stabilized cash flows . I have started to looking into Memphis, but don't have local boots on the ground their to help me understand the market yet. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Ian Middleton , I currently work a 9-5 and have a family to support as well. So I totally understand the "apprehension" when you first start. My word of advice is that you already have done the "numbers" a thousand times over in your head. Now its about execution. The grand entrance will be scary , messy and may or may not make you money, but boy will you learn and grow. The faster you do it the earlier you will decide if its right for you. The main thing I would say is make sure that you have good folks to help keep you motivated and focused along the journey as there will be bumps and times when you think why the heck am I doing this for such a small dollar amount. But when I have those moments of doubt, I look around my office at all the folks that if they lost their W2 income they would be truly hurting and will most likely be doing the same thing they are doing 5-10 years from now. While in 5 years I have built up a passive income stream from over 30 doors now while maintaining the W2 income as "reserves" and allowing me to take bets that I won't feel comfortable with if I were doing this full time. Ian, keep at it and you will find the success you defined . 

  • Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2018 · 189 posts · 107 votes
    8y

    @Drew Y.- This is exactly what I would like to do, it seems like the best long term strategy to reduce risk if you can get it off the ground. I'm curious what your thoughts are on potentially doing the same thing but paying off a complex of some sort? Would there be a reason you would/wouldn't do that?

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Armin Nazarinia So currently I have 5 mortgages including a commercial mortgage. So my buy and hold portfolio does spill off a fair amount of excess cash reserves . Since interest rates on those loans are currently between 3.85-5.75%, I look at it via a cost benefit lens. 

    For my buy and hold portfolio I have a few buckets that I put funds into. Percentages vary depending on your strategy but here is generally how I use my excess cash from this portfolio: 

    Say you have extra 1,000 bucks after paying your monthly expenses and putting aside money for reserves: I split it out in the following manner. 

    1) Additional rainy day fund for CAPEX and repairs. 10%

    2) Additional Acquisitions budget 50% 

    3) Additional Debt paydown 25% 

    4) Stocks / Bonds/ Pay myself. 15% 

    I definitely prescribe to the pay myself first , and have a more conservative approach when dealing with debt . But for me if if I didn't have a use for the cash then I would rather reduce my debt load quicker, which ultimately increases my cash flow as my that debt is paid down. Also you can always pull out a line of credit against buildings that have a strong equity balance if you need to tap it for liquidity. 

  • Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2018 · 189 posts · 107 votes
    8y

    @Drew Y.- Very interesting breakdown. I love what you're doing. I know you probably already have boots on the ground out here but if you need someone to help out in the Twin Cities area I'm always willing to help.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Armin Nazarinia Always willing to help folks learn and grow, as that's how you get better. So feel free to hit me up and talk shop or work through some of your real estate issues. 

    Cheers

  • Real Estate Investor · OAKLAND, CA · Member since 2017 · 24 posts · 30 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Drew Y.:

    @Armin Nazarinia So currently I have 5 mortgages including a commercial mortgage. So my buy and hold portfolio does spill off a fair amount of excess cash reserves . Since interest rates on those loans are currently between 3.85-5.75%, I look at it via a cost benefit lens. 

    For my buy and hold portfolio I have a few buckets that I put funds into. Percentages vary depending on your strategy but here is generally how I use my excess cash from this portfolio: 

    Say you have extra 1,000 bucks after paying your monthly expenses and putting aside money for reserves: I split it out in the following manner. 

    1) Additional rainy day fund for CAPEX and repairs. 10%

    2) Additional Acquisitions budget 50% 

    3) Additional Debt paydown 25% 

    4) Stocks / Bonds/ Pay myself. 15% 

    I definitely prescribe to the pay myself first , and have a more conservative approach when dealing with debt . But for me if if I didn't have a use for the cash then I would rather reduce my debt load quicker, which ultimately increases my cash flow as my that debt is paid down. Also you can always pull out a line of credit against buildings that have a strong equity balance if you need to tap it for liquidity. 

     Great Post @Drew Y. pay yourself first is a good concept to wealth building, I'd been practicing it for the past few years. I'd first discover that idea from a book "The richest man in Babylon." 

     When you started R.E.I, do you leverage debt to fund your deal or using your own cash? I'm currently holding a W-2 and working on 2 flips with planning for another flip project on the way next month. I can appreciate your effort and thanks for sharing.  

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Sunday Nguyen I started mainly with personal cash, (mom/papa investing mentality) . Do not use more than you have and don't get too far into debt (Asian parents ) . However, I have started to use leverage lately as well as starting to bring in outside capital and investors and partners. This I have realized is really the only way to grow outside of your own personal funds. We can chat more directly if you like. ping me if you are free to talk shop and trade war stories and maybe we can find a project that we both can work on.

    Cheers

  • Bay Area, CA · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 16 votes
    8y
    @Drew Y. This is awesome. And for some reason something that hadn’t really occurred to me I guess. How did you get into flipping, is this in CA? Thanks for the post, sounds like you are really thriving!
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Parkville, MD · Member since 2018 · 15 posts · 5 votes
    8y

    Hi Drew!  You've shared an abundance of investment wisdom within a very short post.  I expect to see you as the next newest, hottest Webinar Speaker on BP.  (smile)

    Congratualtions on your many successes.  Thank you for parting wisdom!  

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Tonya Davis I would love to do a webinar if I were invited to speak or asked to give one. I appreciate the compliment and humbled to think that my advice has been helpful. Please let me know if I can every share anything else as, I have been taught to give in order to learn more. 

    Cheers 

  • Auckland, New Zealand · Member since 2018 · 80 posts · 36 votes
    8y
    This is fantastic. I also live in a very difficult market for cash flow, yet I know it very well and appreciation prospects are very good. Coincidentally, I just yesterday came across a house that I thought would make a good flip which would take the pressure off a buy and hold deal I would like. Fantastic to think of using it as a deliberate and ongoing strategy. I’m definitely going to look into the numbers on these sorts of deals a bit more closely
  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Tara Wright Good question. I had primarily been a buy/hold investor working a "9-5 dream" and slowly building my investment portfolio. I had a stated goal of buying 1 new rental income property every other year. However as the markets for rentals in California started to become less and less attractive (CAP rates below 6) I started to transition to flips to build up cash and reduce my long-term exposure to buy/holds that might not make as much sense if the rental markets turn and rates move up. I am currently taking my flips gains and moving them into buy/holds out of state or rentals that might take a little more TLC and long-term value add strategies .

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes
    8y
    @Drew Y. I’m guessing the flips you are doing in FL are likely a higher profit margin than 15%? is that the reason you decided to flip out of state ? How are you managing them working full time in CA ? Do you have a local partner ?
  • Homeowner · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 11 posts · 4 votes
    8y
    @Drew Y. Thanks for sharing. My partner and I will be implementing this very strategy and will close on our first flip this year yet. We both have the goal of quitting our W2 jobs to focus on REI, and while this may take slightly longer using this strategy, we are super excited about the long term wealth building potential. What size buy and hold properties are you buying? Do you have a sweet spot? Thanks again for sharing!
  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Joseph M. Yes, a combination of higher profit margins and also potential for buy/holds out there. I have a partner that is helping with the boots on the grounds aspects out there, since I am still holding down a W2 currently. 

    We have a local contractor that my partner has worked with on a few of his buy and holds out there. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Dan Romnek A lot of factors go into the determination of what property size we are buying and are "sweet spot" . 

    But high level:

    1) If the units rental income doesn't cover mortgage its not going into my buy/hold portfolio , I have a separate "appreciation" portfolio for that on (think San Francisco where CAP rates are 3-4 , but if you can wait out or turn low rent controlled tenants you can improve the building profile.)

    2) I am currently looking for places in B- to A- areas. I am avoiding C, D, F areas currently as I don't have time for war zone and high turn places. I had taken on projects like these when I was a little more cash strapped and had to boot strap things, but I am moving away from those as my time is becoming more valuable than the incremental dollar provided. 

    3) Ask yourself what is your realistic return that you want and the time you are willing to put in to get that amount. This will go along way in determining what is right for you. 

  • Lender · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 82 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    With your buy and  holds are you utilizing the brrr method? It seems like a way to increase cash flow and equity even more as you're an experienced flipper.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco · Member since 2017 · 61 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Drew Cameron First off great name Drew . I have used the BRRR method to a certain extent, but honestly I haven't really needed to given this strategy of flipping and using the cash from those flips to deliberately purchase buy & holds all cash.

    Yes, the cash expended is a little more than people that enjoy leveraging would suggest, but for me its a what allows me to sleep at night.I have also set up Lines of credit against a few buildings that are fully paid off in the event that I need to tap the equity in the future. In the meanwhile paying off the buildings in cash allows me to get good pricing, have a solid cash flow , reduce interest expense and allow me to grow at a rate that I am comfortable with. I discussed in another post about understanding one's debt/income ratio and "stress testing" your portfolio given the market conditions.  This is part of the reason I haven't pulled out maximum cash out of every project, as I don't want to build a house of straw , rather one of bricks less the big bad wolf comes a blowing. 

    This basically was derived out of the 2009 meltdown.  I was too young to be fully involved invested, but I was old enough to see the damage it inflicted and the lives it crushed. Personally I would rather learn from those lessons via a third party than have to experience it myself. Hopefully that was helpful. 

  • Lender · Peabody, MA · Member since 2015 · 82 posts · 49 votes
    8y

    @Drew Y. Yes sleep is important. It sounds like you have a good thing going. I wouldn’t change anything.....especially the name.

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Hi Drew,

    Congrats on your success! Really enjoyed your story.

    I am based in San Diego and new to REI. I also live in a market that is very expensive (not as expensive as SF) right now and where cap rates arent as good. I am trying to diligently save to buy properties locally but am getting interested in flipping to supplement my W2 income for a faster entrance into purchasing properties.

    Just wanted to see if you have done any flips in San Diego and if you think its a good market to start flipping houses?

    Thanks for your help!

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    Well done. That's exactly what I did. Flipped SFH to fund my B&H. Now I feel like I'm just a B&H guy but I find myself flipping apartment deals from time to time due to the excessive prices some are willing to pay.

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