North Atlanta Real Estate Market Update

North Atlanta Real Estate Market Update

Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes

That Atlanta market peaked on July 2007 and bottomed in March of 2012. We have since made a complete "V" shaped recovery since March 2012. At this significant bottom, and retail real estate were trading at 1996 prices. Today we are at 2004 prices entering 2005 prices. YTD Atlanta real estate market is up 18.75%. If the last 12 month appreciation in Atlanta repeats itself in the next 12 months, homes in Atlanta will be trading at prices at the peak of the market before the crash in July of 2007.

I spend a lot of time studying demographic changes and Atlanta and Los Angeles are in a 15 year cycle. These two markets are very interesting to me becuase of this cycle. 2011 is 1996 and the demographics of 01/01/2014 of the north side of Atlanta will look much like the demographics of orange county, CA of 01/01/1999.

The north side of Atlanta is the new Orange County.

Irvine - Johns Creek
Alpharetta - Tustin
Milton - Coto de Caza
Suwanee - Foot Hill Ranch

In 1990, Irvine ethnic demographics looked like this:

white 68.8%, black 1.8%, Asian, 22.1%, hispanic 6.8% - 1990
white 61.1% black 1.4% Asian 29.8%, hispanic 7.4% - 2000

In 2010, Johns Creek's ethnic demographics looks like this:
white 63.45% black 8.8% Asian 23.36%, hispanic: 5%

In 2013, 30% of Johns Creek is now made up of Asian households

Johns Creek's Asian population grew from 13% to 23% within 3 years period of time.

All of Johns Creek High Schools are among the best of Georgia:
Northview, JC High, and Chattahoochee

All of Irvine High Schools are among the best of California:
Uni high, Northwood, Woodbridge, and Irvine High

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Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y

@James Park

I do assume that all your figures are again based on those sub-suburbs and not really on Atlanta?

I apologize, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm German and very straight forward and I'm not very good at being subtle ;-).

It's just that someone reading this in another state, they will think that your numbers pertain to Atlanta - and they do not. The northern far out suburbs are completely different from the Atlanta market. And they've also gone through different cycles. For example, Atlanta had a major slump in '99-'02, due to overbuilding for the Olympics. Even thought he Olympics were in '96, there were many condo projects on the books that came to fruition after '96.

Your area OTP is money and soccer moms and families. Whereas ITP has many different neighborhoods that each have their own values and cycles. Some have become hip and cool in the past few years (Midtown). Some have lost their hipness (Buckhead). You have a good number of revitalizations (Kirkwood, Cabbagetown, Reynoldstown, Edgewood, East Lake etc) and some that have stayed lower income neighbohoods. Many of the revitalized areas are singles or couples, straight or gay.

So, to be honest, it sort of bothers me, if you call your area 'Atlanta' , when it is really more suburbs of Atlanta suburbs. People from the suburbs tend to want to claim 'Atlanta' when it's convenient, but want to have nothing to do with us otherwise.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Alpharetta, GA · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    @

    Thanks James, will explore the areas that you mentioned.

  • Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    Hello @James Park

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 134 posts · 22 votes
    12y

    This is an interesting comparison of the exburbs of Atlanta with Orange County. You mention the 'path of progress' with LA and SD. I can also see this path of progress between other cities such as San Francisco - San Jose, DC - Baltimore, Dallas - Forth Worth, Minneapolis - St. Paul and even Cincinnati - Dayton but I don't yet see it in north central GA. There is no major city between Atlanta and south Forsyth County....

    If you could further explain how the area is the next 'path of progress', myself and others would be highly appreciative of it!

    Also and those that did purchase land/property in OC 40 years ago did indeed fair well today, much better than those who purchase land/property in San Bernardino county! ;)

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y
    @Jay Y.The path of progress does not necessarily go from two points to the middle. You can see that Sandy Springs, Roswell, Johns Creek, Alpharetta all have one of largest population after the city of Atlanta. These cities also have high per capita income.

    pop. 93,853

    pop. 88,346

    pop. 76,728

    pop. 57,551
    pop. 56,579
    pop. 51,271
    Forsyth County population is 187,928 and exploding north at this time. The canvass of Atlanta is more similar to Los Angeles. Los Angeles spread south into Orange County : Irvine, Aliso Viejo, Laguna Niguel, San Clemente. South of San Clemente / Dana Point is open land.
    Similar to Los Angeles, the cities north of 285 is new the orange county: East Cobb, Sandy Springs, Alpharetta, Suwanee, Johns Creek, Roswell, etc. Forsyth County is now that open land for growth. Irvine is now the job center hub for orange county and residence of OC no longer need to commute to LA for jobs. I believe that Alpharetta & Johns Creek area will be that new job center of northern Atlanta within the next 12 - 15 years, much like what Irvine is today.

    Owning real estate in Forsyth County is very attractive as the county schools are among the best in GA and property taxes are less than 1%. One can have million dollar home in Forsyth County and pay the same property taxes of a $300,000 home in Cook County, IL.

    Another interesting similarity is that Atlanta is starting to become known as a world class international city. Atlanta is one of the fastest growing Asian demographics in the county. The new gate way for Asian immigrants is now Atlanta, much like what New York and LA used to be in the 80s for Chinese, Korean, and Indian immigrants.


    Originally posted by @Jay Y.:
    This is an interesting comparison of the exburbs of Atlanta with Orange County. You mention the 'path of progress' with LA and SD. I can also see this path of progress between other cities such as San Francisco - San Jose, DC - Baltimore, Dallas - Forth Worth, Minneapolis - St. Paul and even Cincinnati - Dayton but I don't yet see it in north central GA. There is no major city between Atlanta and south Forsyth County....

    If you could further explain how the area is the next 'path of progress', myself and others would be highly appreciative of it!

    Also and those that did purchase land/property in OC 40 years ago did indeed fair well today, much better than those who purchase land/property in San Bernardino county! ;)

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    It might not be this way now but I remember at one point in Forsyth they put a moratorium on building there. This was back in 2005,2006 when I was looking with developers. So much growth was happening the county said stop for awhile they needed to get a handle on things.

    Of course everyone wanted to build, build, build and didn't like that news. I didn't keep track of how it all played out.

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 134 posts · 22 votes
    12y

    @James Park

    It's interesting that those cities have high per capita income but I wonder for those residences, where are their jobs or businesses located?

    You mention that Irvine is the hub of OC, do you think they'll ever either expand John Wayne airport or build a new airport to be able to handle and serve those in lower OC. If that area is as built up as you make it sound, LAX is a good distance away. I think even Long Beach airport has more flights than John Wayne. My point is that if Forsyth county is to become the next job center, another airport must be built to serve those in the area because Heartsfield is way too far away.

    I hate to say but I personally hope Atlanta's northern exburbs don't turn into another San Gabriel Valley. Back in the 80's, the SGV used to have affordable housing (with the exception of San Marino of course). With the large immigration influx, housing dramatically increased due to demand from those with deep pockets. In fact, it's still happening today with all cash purchases (way over list price) with buyers thinking LA property is cheap! I don't want housing that doubles every year while wages/salaries barely increase, that's not a very sustainable economy in my view...

    None the less, you bring some interesting points but we'll just have to wait and see what will happen!

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    @Jay

    I don't foresee any new airport south of Irvine near the coast as there is no need. I have admit that I've been waiting for a second airport in Atlanta for a very long time. The distance between Johns Creek and Hartsfield Airport is almost one hour. It is almost like living in Irvine but the only access to the airport is one hour away to LAX. Atlanta has had a million population growth from 2000 - 2010. Only other cities that had a million + population growth during that time period is Dallas and Houston.

    My demographics studies tell me that Northern Atlanta will never become san Gabriel Valley mostly due to the type of demographics moving into this area.

    Propeller Investments tried to privatize Briscoe Field in Gwinnett County in 2012 but failed. I was a huge fan and advocate of this 2nd airport getting approved and was really disappointed when the Gwinnett county residents fought against the second the airport and won. It appears that Paulding County did approve Propeller Investments to develop a second airport in northwest Atlanta.

    Every world class cities have two airports:

    New York has JFK and LaGuardia, Chicago has Midway and OHare, LA has LAX and John Wayne and soon Atlanta will be recognized as a world class international city.

    On Oct. 7, Paulding County officials announced Oct. 7 an agreement with Propeller Investments to develop Paulding Northwest Atlanta Airport, a public use, general aviation airport located 24 miles northwest of Atlanta.

    http://dacula.patch.com/groups/business-news/p/propeller-investments-finds-takers-in-paulding-county

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    Here is a list of the top 20 wealthiest cities in the state of Georgia. Buckhead is known as the Beverly Hills of the South. The northern suburban cities on this list include:

    Berkley Lake, Milton, Johns Creek, Alpharetta, Suwanee, Roswell, Sandy Springs, and Dunwoody.

    Johns Creek is a hidden diamond waiting to be discovered.

  • Braselton, GA · Member since 2013 · 243 posts · 57 votes
    12y
    I guess wealthy is a relative term as all of those cities also have their trouble spots. Cross into norcross or chamblee or doraville which are all border cities up and down buford hwy and you are in the ghetto. Suwanee is ok until you cross over 85. Johns creek is still building infrastructure to support the mass exodus of people from Alpharetta and Milton. I'll keep my money in more reasonable spots a little further up 85 in gwinnett county and into barrow(chateau élan).
  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    When looking at real estate in Atlanta, I see and analyze real estate in terms of schools clusters. In Irvine, it is very straight forward. The most expensive real estate zip code in Irvine is 92603 which covers the following villages: Turtle Ridge, Shady Canyon, Turtle Rock and Quail Hill. The entire 92603 zip codes feeds in the University High School (#1 High school in Irvine). 92620 feeds into Northwood High and ppsf is much lower than 92603. You can be in Irvine and drive 10 minutes west and now you are in the ghettos of Santa Ana. Clearly this is also the case in northern Atlanta as we have bad pockets in northern Atlanta as well.

    In the northern suburbs of Atlanta, you can have a Suwanee address in Forsyth County, a Suwanee address in Gwinnett County, and a Suwanee address in Fulton County with a zip code of 30024. You can have a Duluth address in Gwinnett County,Duluth in Fulton County, and Duluth in Forsyth County. You can have a zip code of 30096 or 30097 with a Duluth address. In northern Atlanta you can be in Forsyth County, Fulton County, and Gwinnett County all within 15 minutes drive. Sales tax 6% in Gwinnett and 7% in Fulton and Forsyth County. Confusing huh? I believe that one must master the school clusters to become a success investor in northern Atlanta.

    For example, the demographics of gwinnett county is changing very fast. Buford High, Peachtree Ridge, Collins, North Gwinnett are solid "B/B+" rated schools in Gwinnett County. Duluth High School in the other hands is going for the worse. If your rental homes were previously zoned into Peachtree Ridge and now rezoned for Duluth High School...... I would tell you to sell off these assets immediately.

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 134 posts · 22 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @James Park:

    Johns Creek is a hidden diamond waiting to be discovered.

    No doubt Johns Creek is a nice area! And hopefully someday it will match Irvine with having an R1 University (ie. UCI) and commuter rail service (ie. Metrolink) to the city. But in my little humble opinion, I think Santa Monica is a bigger powerhouse than Irvine. ;)

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    @

    Keep in mind that Santa Monica is in LA county and Irvine is in Orange County. Santa Monica would be more like Dunwoody/Druid Hills here.

    You know what is funny is that I am starting to noticemore California license plates here while I am driving around. I even saw two Irvine license plates yesterday at the Lifetime fitness in Johns Creek.

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 134 posts · 22 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @James Park:
    @

    Keep in mind that Santa Monica is in LA county and Irvine is in Orange County. Santa Monica would be more like Dunwoody/Druid Hills here.

    That is true but from judging traffic patterns, in the mornings traffic flows into Santa Monica on the 10 freeway. From OC in the mornings, traffic flows into LA county on the 5 freeway. Plus Metrolink trains in the mornings depart OC for Union Station...

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    Here are the most populated cities in metro Atlanta top / down.

  • Braselton, GA · Member since 2013 · 243 posts · 57 votes
    12y
    Where are you getting these school rankings? Based on crct scores? Elementary, middle, high schools? I would send my children to buford city before any school in Forsyth county. That is if I were foolish enough to want them indoctrinated by a government school at all. My wife teaches in Gwinnett county and I know north gwinnett in suwanee is a superior school. I also know thd number 1 ranking school is Jefferson City schools, at all grade levels.
  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    @Justen Ashcraft,

    I do most of my school research on www.schooldigger.com. You are correct that Buford High is one of the best high schools in Gwinnett County with North Gwinnet. I believe that the Forsyth is the future and North Gwinnett and Buford are good schools today. I provide my supporting data why I think Forsyth Schools are the future.

    Here are the rankings from Atlanta Magazine. Three high school clusters make up the entire city of Johns Creek. Northview (rank #1), Chattahoochee (rank #4) and Johns Creek High (rank#8)

    Best Public Georgia High School Rankings
    1. * Northview - Johns Creek *
    2. Walton
    3. Dekalb School of the Arts
    4. * Chattahoocee HS - Johns Creek*
    5. Lassiter
    6. Pope
    7. Alpharetta
    8. *Johns Creek HS - Johns Creek*
    9. Milton
    10. Starrs Mill
    11. Brookwood
    12. Harrison
    13. McIntosh
    14. Riverwood
    15. Parkview
    16. Lakeside
    17. Peachtree Ridge
    18. Chamblee Charter
    19. Wheeler
    20. Decatur
    21. Roswell - Fulton
    22. Sequoyah - Cherokee
    23. Dunwoody - Dekalb
    24. Etowah - Cherokee
    25. Whitewater - Fayette
    26. Collins Hill - Gwinnett
    27. Kennesaw Mountain - Cobb
    28. Mill Creek - Gwinnett
    29. Centennial - Fulton
    30. Creekview - Cherokee
    31. Hillgrove -Cobb
    32. Kell - Cobb
    33. Woodstock - Cherokee
    34. North Gwinnett - Gwinnett
    35. Duluth - Gwinnett
    36. Buford - Buford City
    37. Union Grove - Henry
    38. Grady - Atlanta
    39. The School of the Arts at Carver - Atlanta
    40. North Springs - Fulton
    41. Norcross - Gwinnett
    42. Druid Hills - Dekalb
    43. Fayette County - Fayette
    44. Grayson - Gwinnett
    45. TEACH Charter - Fulton
    46. Sprayberry - Cobb
    47. Allatoona - Cobb
    48. Cherokee - Cherokee
    49. Dacula - Gwinnett
    50. Sandy Creek - Fayette

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    Georgia Tech and UGA are the top flag ship universities in the state of Georgia. I look at the high school's strength by seeing the % of students admitted to these two schools by its total population. I analyze real estate investments in north Atlanta by school clusters.

    GA Tech and UGA Admissions/SAT scores/Best Public High Schools - Atlanta Magazine

    *** Top 10 High Schools with % Students Enrolled to GA Tech and UGA


    1. Northview High School (FULTON): 28.6% (50+114 out of 573)
    2. Chattahoochee High School (FULTON): 25.6% (43+66 out of 425)
    3. Alpharetta High School (FULTON): 21.7% (40+82 out of 561)
    4. Milton High School (FULTON): 20.5% (39+82 out of 590)
    5. Walton High School (COBB): 19.2% (38+88 out of 655)
    6. Lambert High School (FORSYTH): 19% (15+61 out of 400)
    7. Pope High School (COBB): 18.7% (22+67 out of 475)
    8. Lassiter High School (COBB): 18.3% (15+68 out of 453)
    9. Johns Creek High School (FULTON): 18% (14+16 out of 167)
    10.Starr's Mill High School (FAYETT): 17.7% (23+54 out of 436)
    *** Top 10 High Schools SAT scores

    7 out of 10 high schools with highest GA Tech and UGA enrollments

    from the above list are also in top 10 highest SAT scores

    1. Northview High School (Fulton): 1751
    2. Walton High School (Cobb): 1725
    3. Chattahoochee High School (Fulton): 1694
    4. Alpharetta High School (Fulton): 1679
    5. Pope High School (Cobb): 1676
    6. Milton High School (Fulton): 1659
    7. Riverwood High School (Fulton): 1652
    8. Roswell High School (Fulton): 1645
    9. South Forsyth High School (Forsyth): 1640
    10.Lassiter High School (Cobb): 1634


    *** Top 10 Best Public High Schools - Atlanta Magazine

    9 out of 10 high schools with highest GA Tech and UGA enrollments from the above list are also in top 10 Best Public High Schools - Atlanta Magazine

    1. Northview High School (Fulton)
    2. Walton High School (Cobb)
    3. Dekalb School of the Arts High School (Dekalb)

    4. Chattahoochee High School (Fulton)
    5. Lassiter High School (Cobb)
    6. Pope High School (Cobb)
    7. Milton High School (Fulton)
    8. Alpharetta High School (Fulton)
    9. Johns Creek High School (Fulton)
    10.Star's Mill High School (Feyett)

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y


    School Cluster Map of Forsyth County: The White color (right below Lambert) is Northview High School, which is the #1 High School in the state of Georgia.

    1. Lambert HS (Yellow) : A+/A Premium Asset (rank top ten high school)

    2. South Forsyth HS: A/A- Premium Asset (rank top ten high school): PPSF is higher and more desirable in S. Forsyth Middle vs Piney Grove Middle. S. Forsyth has hardly any townhomes except for James Creek. More townhomes are available in Piney Grove Middle.

    3. West Forsyth HS: Premium Assets: (A-/B+)(rank top twenty high school) Vickery Creek Middle Standard Assets: (B/B-) Liberty Middle

    4. North Forsyth : Standard Assets: (B) Mostly white demographic : 90% +

    5. Forsyth Central HS: Standard Assets. (C/C+)

    I would start researching rank #1,2,3,4... then 5 in Forsyth County. Also the taxes are less 1% which is good for cash flow.

  • Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    James the % admitted to UGA and Tech is not a great investor barometer. Correlation does not equal causation. I bet you'd find the % of students going to any school is higher when the student is close to the school.

    More interesting would be change in student population along with CRCT and other measures. If Johns Creek were losing students rapidly, I wouldn't want to invest there even if it were a top tier school.

    Moreover, if student population were exploding at Johns Creek and performance was degrading, then I'd less enthusiastic as well. Parents vs. school systems have a great impact and are masked.

    A great school system worth betting on can handle population growth while continuing to improve its pedagogy.

    Some areas of Atlanta, students don't go to public school so the school system quality is much less relevant, e.g Druid Hills. Over time, I suspect Johns Creek will be similar.

    Rick

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    @

    The Georgia Tech and UGA is a personal barometer I use to evaluate the strength and performance of the school, especially a feeder high school into Tech. Northview has the highest % of students admitted to Tech than any other public high schools in the state of Georgia. As of 2012, there are more Asian students than White students in Northview High. You will see a similar pattern with a top California public high school, having the highest % of admittance to UCLA and Berkeley.

    Johns Creek schools are increasing in population. Johns Creek will soon need to build a 4th high school just like Irvine recently built their 5th to accommodate the student population growth..

    "A great school system worth betting on can handle population growth while continuing to improve its pedagogy."

    What you describe here is exactly South Forsyth County: Lambert High and South Forsyth High.

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    Three metros cities grew more than a million in population from 2000 - 2010 and Atlanta metro made the top 3. You can see that OC/LA only grew half the population of Atlanta.

    Below you can see below that Forsyth County is still the 7th fastest growing county in nation and #1 fastest county in the state of Georgia.

    No 7: Forsyth County, GA Growth, 2010 - 2012
    Growth, 2010-12: 7.07%2012 Population: 187,928

    Rank Population Growth Rate ? County / Population
    1. 78.35% Forsyth, GA / 175,511
    2. 74.25% Paulding, GA / 142,324
    3. 70.87% Henry, GA / 203,922
    4. 61.22% Newton, GA / 99,958
    5. 51.05% Cherokee, GA / 214,346
    6. 50.33% Barrow, GA / 69,367
    7. 45.44% Jackson, GA / 60,485
    8. 43.64% Douglas, GA / 132,403
    9. 42.71% Coweta, GA / 127,317
    10. 42.59% Lumpkin, GA / 29,966

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    duplicate.

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    12y

    duplicate

  • Marietta, GA · Member since 2014 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    12y

    @James Park

    Fantastic assessment of the Forsyth County area. I too find it to be quite interesting to read about the comparison to Orange County, CA that you have detailed. There is definitely something there. As residents of South Forsyth County for the past 9 years, my wife and I have observed many of the same phenomenons that you and others have described with both demographic changes and school performance in previous posts. We also pay close attention to the trends in the school systems and strongly feel that, as of right now, today, there is no better place for us to make a 10-15 year committment for our children to get a quality education in the public sector. When the CCRPI (new model for measuring school achievement) was revealed in the spring of 2012, Lambert High School was the #1 traditional public school on the list and #5 overall. http://www.ajc.com/news/news/best-worst-metro-ccrpi-scores-2012/nXjHT/. Very soon after that housing inventory in the Lambert school district became very hard to come by. People have shared stories of individuals literally knocking on their door and asking them to buy their house. Over the last several months, houses in the Lambert school district are selling in a couple of hours of hitting the market and at inflated prices. Another bubble approaching?

    John's Creek Elementary School, located in the very southeastern corner of the county, has increased 20% in Asian population in just five years and is projected to eclipse 50% in the upcoming school year. http://r4dashboard.forsyth.k12.ga.us/. We have observed this demographic change all the way up the "141 Corridor" (Peachtree Pkwy) and is now spilling over to the west side of Hwy 400, which is quickly losing its grasp on the pasture filled horse country that has attracted long time residents for years as a result of continual changes in zoning laws that benefit developers for new houses that are flying off the shelves.

    Thanks again James for the well thought out data analysis of the north Atlanta market. As new real estate entrepreneurs, my wife and I are very interested in the North Fulton, Forsyth and North Gwinnett areas. Please keep sharing!

    Paul

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @James Park   Living Orange County, you are correct in saying that it's one of the wealthiest counties in the country. Aside from having wealthy individuals, it also has one of the lowest uemployment rates 4-5%, a broad based economy, universities, medical centers, amusement parks, open space, is serviced by every major airline, has miles of shoreline where driving down the highway one can see migrating whales, and perfect year round weather!  The weather is probably what draws more people here than anything, with people flocking from around the world to vacation here, etc. In addition there's the ports in Long Beach that are a huge employer and feed into the economies of all the areas of southern Californnia. 

    Donald Bren developed the first master planned community in the country at Irvine, and still to this day controls the majority of the land there, so there are few opportunities for anyone else to do anything there. 

    However; there's still thousands of acres of open land, and room for more development in Orange County. 

    I'm not comparing the two places as you did. My thoughts are people locate in areas for various reasons, and aside from the wealth, I'm sure the areas are completely different. What is the local economy there based on? Unemployment rate? etc. 

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