Nightmare with my property manager - advice needed!

Nightmare with my property manager - advice needed!

San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 4 votes

I own a small portfolio of 4 single-family rentals in Michigan (older, workforce housing). All were purchased cash and professionally managed by the same property manager for a few years. For the most part, 3 of the 4 properties have been stable with long-term tenants and consistent cash flow.

However, one property has turned into a nightmare:

  • First tenant was a professional tenant and stayed in the property for months without paying rent, and before they got evicted they destroyed the entire kitchen/basement.
  • Next tenant of ~4 years suddenly developed hoarding issues → property ended up filled floor-to-ceiling with debris, and turnover required full cleanout + rehab
  • After spending a few thousand on the cleanout, PM communicated via email: “cleanout done, just need paint etc.” before getting a 5 figure bill
  • No estimates, no budget, no approval requests

After the work was completed, we were presented with:

  • ~$20k+ in repair costs without proof (pictures, receipts)
  • No prior authorization (our agreement requires approval >$200 unless emergency)
  • No staged updates as scope expanded
  • No clear reconciliation of costs

This single event wiped out most of the portfolio’s profits and pushed the property deeply negative.

PM’s position is essentially:

  • “This is normal for older, low-income housing”
  • “Repairs needed to be done regardless”
  • “Tenant issues (hoarding, mental health) are unpredictable”

My questions for the group:

  1. Is this level of spend (>$20k, >100% of annual rent) ever considered normal without owner approval?
  2. How do professional PMs typically handle scope creep during rehabs?
  3. At what dollar threshold do you expect a PM to stop and get explicit approval?
  4. Is this more of a “bad situation” or a “bad property manager”?

What advice do you have if you were in my shoes? Appreciate any insight — trying to figure out whether this is part of the business or a sign I need to make a change.

Thanks in advance.

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Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6mo

As a licensed PM for 30 years, retired for the last 2, I will tell you that you need to immediately start interviewing for a new PM, and provide the current PM with written notice of contract termination AFTER you read the agreement to determine what, if any termination cost might be. You may be stuck with them until you can wait out the term. You have a Bad PM. 

Also, the "hoarding" Tenant and the deadbeat that was there for months, clear signs of poor management. Proper, in depth screening, mandatory annual walk through inspections with pics which are forwarded to Owner for review and discussion prior to a Rental Term Renewal should be routine. Late fees should be automatic and trigger the Eviction process if not cleared timely. It will never be cheaper than today, to get rid of a Bad Tenant, but you do need to check the LL/Tenant laws for the jurisdiction of the Rental Units.

Your contract should also very clearly state the dollar amount at which they needed to get Owner approval, period. How have the done so in the past? I've always had owner approval, via email or a signed Vendor Contract for expenses over one month's rent for a unit. Reno's always had an approved, signed, written estimate from the Contractors, and for major jobs we requested funds for the full amount from the Owner prior to allowing the Contractor to start on the job. We would hold the funds in our Trust Account, and make progress payments based on actual job site inspection. We always withheld the last 10% until the Owner was able to inspect the final job personally if they wanted to.

Lastly, regardless of the neighborhood, whatever tier of the Rental Pricing Pool you are in, you need to attract the Best applicants from that pool. The unit must be clean, safe, fully functional, and should be bright...not dark or dinghy. People that rent tired, ugly units do so because they have no choice and are settling for it, or because they are used to those conditions and don't notice. Overall, there are more Good Tenants than Bad, but you have to attract them and screen for them.

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  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6mo

    There are certain types of properties I wont buy because they have constant management headaches.  I don't like properties in really rough areas.  Low-income and older are not necessarily red flags, but based on your story, you may be in a rough area.  If this property is in rough areas, unless you have a PM that rocks, it is really hard to make a profit.  

    On the other hand, your PM doesn't sound very good.  Still, I have questions.  Were all of your agreements in writing?  Did you call them on the times they seemed to violate those agreements?  Even if these agreements were verbal and vague, I would expect my PM to let me know about any significant expense. This was way above the threshold. Also, no details?  If I were you, I would be looking to fire the PM.

    What neighborhood are you in, BTW?  There are several PMs on this form like @Drew Sygit that may be good resources, depending on where your property is located.

    While I never want to have a paid-in-full rental (for many reasons) in a way you are lucky that you don't have a mortgage.  It sounds like you can absorb this hit.  Would you have managed this differently if you had a mortgage?  Sometimes the pressure of paying the mortgage makes you a better investor.

  • Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6mo

    As a licensed PM for 30 years, retired for the last 2, I will tell you that you need to immediately start interviewing for a new PM, and provide the current PM with written notice of contract termination AFTER you read the agreement to determine what, if any termination cost might be. You may be stuck with them until you can wait out the term. You have a Bad PM. 

    Also, the "hoarding" Tenant and the deadbeat that was there for months, clear signs of poor management. Proper, in depth screening, mandatory annual walk through inspections with pics which are forwarded to Owner for review and discussion prior to a Rental Term Renewal should be routine. Late fees should be automatic and trigger the Eviction process if not cleared timely. It will never be cheaper than today, to get rid of a Bad Tenant, but you do need to check the LL/Tenant laws for the jurisdiction of the Rental Units.

    Your contract should also very clearly state the dollar amount at which they needed to get Owner approval, period. How have the done so in the past? I've always had owner approval, via email or a signed Vendor Contract for expenses over one month's rent for a unit. Reno's always had an approved, signed, written estimate from the Contractors, and for major jobs we requested funds for the full amount from the Owner prior to allowing the Contractor to start on the job. We would hold the funds in our Trust Account, and make progress payments based on actual job site inspection. We always withheld the last 10% until the Owner was able to inspect the final job personally if they wanted to.

    Lastly, regardless of the neighborhood, whatever tier of the Rental Pricing Pool you are in, you need to attract the Best applicants from that pool. The unit must be clean, safe, fully functional, and should be bright...not dark or dinghy. People that rent tired, ugly units do so because they have no choice and are settling for it, or because they are used to those conditions and don't notice. Overall, there are more Good Tenants than Bad, but you have to attract them and screen for them.

  • MD/DC · Member since 2024 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6mo

    Sorry this happened and agree PM needs to go after you get photos of the before and personally inspect the after. Lots of red flags including the “sudden” hoarding which is unlikely to be sudden. Unfortunately OOS landlording isn’t as passive or easy as the dudes from Ohio would have us believe. Best wishes for a quick resolution. 




  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6mo
    Quote from @Jennie Ohyoung:

    I own a small portfolio of 4 single-family rentals in Michigan (older, workforce housing). All were purchased cash and professionally managed by the same property manager for a few years. For the most part, 3 of the 4 properties have been stable with long-term tenants and consistent cash flow.

    However, one property has turned into a nightmare:

    • First tenant was a professional tenant and stayed in the property for months without paying rent, and before they got evicted they destroyed the entire kitchen/basement.
    • Next tenant of ~4 years suddenly developed hoarding issues → property ended up filled floor-to-ceiling with debris, and turnover required full cleanout + rehab
    • After spending a few thousand on the cleanout, PM communicated via email: “cleanout done, just need paint etc.” before getting a 5 figure bill
    • No estimates, no budget, no approval requests

    After the work was completed, we were presented with:

    • ~$20k+ in repair costs without proof (pictures, receipts)
    • No prior authorization (our agreement requires approval >$200 unless emergency)
    • No staged updates as scope expanded
    • No clear reconciliation of costs

    This single event wiped out most of the portfolio’s profits and pushed the property deeply negative.

    PM’s position is essentially:

    • “This is normal for older, low-income housing”
    • “Repairs needed to be done regardless”
    • “Tenant issues (hoarding, mental health) are unpredictable”

    My questions for the group:

    1. Is this level of spend (>$20k, >100% of annual rent) ever considered normal without owner approval?
    2. How do professional PMs typically handle scope creep during rehabs?
    3. At what dollar threshold do you expect a PM to stop and get explicit approval?
    4. Is this more of a “bad situation” or a “bad property manager”?

    What advice do you have if you were in my shoes? Appreciate any insight — trying to figure out whether this is part of the business or a sign I need to make a change.

    Thanks in advance.


     The 3rd party managers I work with typically have a max threshold that they reach out to me and my clients when they have to go over for approval. What does your management agreement say?

  • Real Estate Broker · Atlanta · Member since 2024 · 1k+ posts · 604 votes
    6mo

    Jennie, that is not normal. That is clearly a breakdown in management. $20K+ with no approval, no documentation and no communication is a clear violation of your agreement. Even in C-class/workforce housing, a professional PM should pause, scope and get written authorization as costs escalate. This isn’t just a bad situation, it is a bad property manager.

    If I were you, I would demand a full itemized invoice, receipts and before/after photos.

    Review your management agreement for breach as you likely have one. Push back on unauthorized charges, don’t just accept them. Consider terminating and replacing the PM immediately. 

    Tenant risk is part of the business but lack of oversight and accountability is not.

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      6mo
      Quote from @Janice Carter:

      Jennie, that is not normal. That is clearly a breakdown in management. $20K+ with no approval, no documentation and no communication is a clear violation of your agreement. Even in C-class/workforce housing, a professional PM should pause, scope and get written authorization as costs escalate. This isn’t just a bad situation, it is a bad property manager.

      If I were you, I would demand a full itemized invoice, receipts and before/after photos.

      Review your management agreement for breach as you likely have one. Push back on unauthorized charges, don’t just accept them. Consider terminating and replacing the PM immediately. 

      Tenant risk is part of the business but lack of oversight and accountability is not.


      well probably does not matter U could have approved everything and still end up in the same place.. clients of mine in these C to D class rental areas around the country all report back that basic turn overs these days run 3 to 5k.. so for a basically trashed house 20k is not unheard of .. But the PM should have gotten your permission.. What if you dont have the money to pay them. they took a big risk fronting this.. I guess they could lien your houses if you dont pay or try to take the rent from your other houses to offset but I dont think that is legal for them to do.  Bottom line not shocking at all with that kind of property I suspect you have been lucky up to this point. And if your houses are paid for then you did not lose all your rental income as I suspect 4 years of rents for 4 houses FAR exceeds 20k. 
  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    6mo
    Quote from @Jennie Ohyoung:

    I own a small portfolio of 4 single-family rentals in Michigan (older, workforce housing). All were purchased cash and professionally managed by the same property manager for a few years. For the most part, 3 of the 4 properties have been stable with long-term tenants and consistent cash flow.

    However, one property has turned into a nightmare:

    • First tenant was a professional tenant and stayed in the property for months without paying rent, and before they got evicted they destroyed the entire kitchen/basement.
    • Next tenant of ~4 years suddenly developed hoarding issues → property ended up filled floor-to-ceiling with debris, and turnover required full cleanout + rehab
    • After spending a few thousand on the cleanout, PM communicated via email: “cleanout done, just need paint etc.” before getting a 5 figure bill
    • No estimates, no budget, no approval requests

    After the work was completed, we were presented with:

    • ~$20k+ in repair costs without proof (pictures, receipts)
    • No prior authorization (our agreement requires approval >$200 unless emergency)
    • No staged updates as scope expanded
    • No clear reconciliation of costs

    This single event wiped out most of the portfolio’s profits and pushed the property deeply negative.

    PM’s position is essentially:

    • “This is normal for older, low-income housing”
    • “Repairs needed to be done regardless”
    • “Tenant issues (hoarding, mental health) are unpredictable”

    My questions for the group:

    1. Is this level of spend (>$20k, >100% of annual rent) ever considered normal without owner approval?
    2. How do professional PMs typically handle scope creep during rehabs?
    3. At what dollar threshold do you expect a PM to stop and get explicit approval?
    4. Is this more of a “bad situation” or a “bad property manager”?

    What advice do you have if you were in my shoes? Appreciate any insight — trying to figure out whether this is part of the business or a sign I need to make a change.

    Thanks in advance.


    As others have stated, this is NOT normal for the industry, but not uncommon😫

    Review your management contract to see what the requirements are.

    Here's what we think they violated:

    1) No Scope Of Work (SOW) for Your Review
    - How are they the experts at what you want done to your property?

    2) No Proof of Competitive Bids
    - It's one thing to not get bids for work under $1k (usually more pain than its worth), but quite another when it's $20k or work!

    3) No Discussion About Your Budget
    - How do they know what you can afford?
    Guessing they feel comfortable using the rents from your other 3 properties to cover their invoice(s).

    4) Lack of Documentation
    - Who do you know that would spend $20k w/o seeing what that money got them?

    DM us to send us your contract to assist you with reviewing it for their violations.

    You should start your search for a new PMC ASAP...

  • Real Estate Agent · Memphis · Member since 2026 · 541 posts · 315 votes
    6mo

    That's a tough situation — but based on what you described, this is less about "normal risk" and more about process breakdown on the management side. 

    In older/workforce housing, big turns can absolutely happen — hoarding, heavy damage, etc. A $15k-$25k rehab isn't unheard of in the right context. The issue here isn't just the number — it's how it was handles. 

    A few things stand out:

    • No approval on a $20k+ scope (with a $200 threshold) is a major miss

    • No staged updates as costs escalated removes your ability to make decisions

    • No documentation (photos, invoices, breakdowns) is not standard practice

    Even in messy situations, most professional PMs follow a structure:

    Initial assessment → rough estimate → owner approval → ongoing updates if scope expands → final reconciliation with documentation. 

    Scope creep happens but communication and approvals should scale with it. '

    The bigger question isn't "was the repair needed?" — it's why you were removed from the decision-making process entirely. 

    If I were in your position, I’d focus on two things:

    1. Get full transparency now — detailed invoices, vendor info, before/after photos, and a line-by-line breakdown of costs.

    2. Re-evaluate the relationship — not based on this one event alone, but whether their systems and communication give you confidence going forward.

    This doesn’t read like typical “cost of doing business.” It reads like a control and communication issue, which is harder to absorb long-term than a single bad tenant. 

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 4 votes
    6mo

    Wow thanks everyone for your advice! Responding to some of the questions below:

    - Most of my properties are in Redford Township and Dearborn Heights averaging $1600/month/property, and they're all in decent neighborhoods. 

    - I have reviewed the rental agreement and it requires anything above $200 to be reviewed and approved by us the owners. I have called the PM out a few times on this, he apologized and said he will do better, and yet it keeps on happening. 

    - I have told the PM that I don't have the cash to pay for the shockingly large bill, so he's agreed to draw on my future rental income. But so far I'm only seeing unexplained 3-4 figure charges from other properties as well, without any prior notice!

    - I have also requested receipts, photos, itemized lists and received nothing. 

    Is there legal action I can take here, or the ability to report this behavior to keep PMs accountable for their actions? 

    P.S. If anyone know of good PMs in the Redford area, please refer away, thank you all again! You've all been so kind!

    • Theresa HarrisPro Member
      Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
      6mo
      Quote from @Jennie Ohyoung:

      - I have told the PM that I don't have the cash to pay for the shockingly large bill, so he's agreed to draw on my future rental income. But so far I'm only seeing unexplained 3-4 figure charges from other properties as well, without any prior notice!

      - I have also requested receipts, photos, itemized lists and received nothing. 

      Is there legal action I can take here, or the ability to report this behavior to keep PMs accountable for their actions? 


       You need to talk to them again and ask them about the other charges and once again remind them as per the contract, they need permission from you for anything over $200 (barring an emergency and even then they should notify you as soon as that happens).

      In some places, they are registered and report to a board-find out how it works where you are.  You may also want to consult a lawyer.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6mo

    It doesn't matter if they think this is normal for older, low income housing, if the repairs needed to be done or there were tenant issues; as per the contract you have with them, they need your permission for repairs over a set amount and they violated that contract.  Anything that was over the amount in my contact, I expect them to contact me and then go from there-ie explain what is happening, how they got that quote (was it one company, or the best of three quotes, etc).

    Communication is so important and yet seems so hard (no idea why when in this day and age, it is simple to contact people).  As Greg said there are two issues-older home and the PM.

  • Property Manager · Calabasas, CA · Member since 2026 · 141 posts · 67 votes
    6mo

    To Jennie's follow-up question about legal options — yes, there are a few angles worth knowing about.

    In Michigan, property managers who handle trust accounts are typically required to be licensed under the state's real estate licensing laws. Filing a complaint with the Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs (LARA) is a legitimate avenue if they've been drawing unauthorized funds from your accounts across multiple properties. That's not just a contract dispute — it can rise to the level of commingling or misappropriation depending on how it's documented.

    From a contract enforcement standpoint, what you've described — repeated violations of an explicit authorization threshold, no documentation, drawing from other properties without notice — builds a pretty clear case for breach of contract. The paper trail you're creating by requesting invoices and getting non-responses is actually useful evidence. I'd keep all of it.

    On the practical side: the next PM you hire, make sure the management agreement spells out not just the authorization threshold but also the documentation requirements for any repair over that amount (minimum two bids, photos before and after, signed estimate before work starts). I've had to push back on a tenant CAM dispute once where my PM at the time couldn't produce backup documentation for work they'd done — never again. Now it's all in writing upfront.

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2026 · 12 posts · 11 votes
    6mo

    The $20K unauthorized spend is bad but what's worse is the pattern you described -- multiple violations, repeated apologies, nothing changing. That tells you this PM doesn't have systems in place, they're just reacting. The apology is the tell. A PM with actual processes doesn't need to apologize because they don't miss thresholds in the first place.

    When you get to the next PM, the authorization threshold needs teeth in the contract. If I were working with a PM I'd want an explicit clause that any unauthorized spend gets deducted from their management fee, not from my rental income. That changes the incentive.

    The other thing people skip is requiring monthly inspection reports with photos. Not annual. Monthly. Your hoarding tenant didn't become a hoarder overnight. Someone was collecting rent and not walking the unit.

    • Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
      6mo
      Quote from @Nate Sullivan:

      The $20K unauthorized spend is bad but what's worse is the pattern you described -- multiple violations, repeated apologies, nothing changing. That tells you this PM doesn't have systems in place, they're just reacting. The apology is the tell. A PM with actual processes doesn't need to apologize because they don't miss thresholds in the first place.

      When you get to the next PM, the authorization threshold needs teeth in the contract. If I were working with a PM I'd want an explicit clause that any unauthorized spend gets deducted from their management fee, not from my rental income. That changes the incentive.

      The other thing people skip is requiring monthly inspection reports with photos. Not annual. Monthly. Your hoarding tenant didn't become a hoarder overnight. Someone was collecting rent and not walking the unit.

       I seriously doubt any legit PM would agree to your "unauthorized spend" clause. Certainly a limit should be clearly detailed in the Agreement, but there are occasions where Owners are not available or responsive, and delays are causing damage to your property or imminent danger for Tenants or neighbors, and action MUST come first to mitigate those damages or threats. It is YOUR property, and ultimately you are responsible for any legit expenses.

      Monthly inspections with photos is absurd. A legit PM will not do it, as that clearly becomes violating the legal concept of "quiet enjoyment" (which does NOT mean "keep the noise down"). A thorough, competent, screening weeds out the worst; clear and consistently applied House Rules and discussion of Tenant Responsibilities; and annual inspections PLUS just eyes and ears walking or driving by and paying attention will prevent any serious hoarding related issues.
  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6mo

    As @Jay Hinrichs says is 100% accurate ¨clients of mine in these C to D class rental areas around the country all report back that basic turn overs these days run 3 to 5k.. so for a basically trashed house 20k is not unheard of¨. I have a 4 unit in one of these areas and its all the same awful turnover costs even from the ¨good¨ tenants, low class people destroy things and higher class people do not want to live in low income areas. We even had some nut case break a few windows, cabinets, mirrors, kicked in both front and back doors who knows how that happen probably low class domestic disputes, etc. tons of damage. 

  • Property Manager · Calabasas, CA · Member since 2026 · 141 posts · 67 votes
    6mo

    Good discussion on the inspection frequency question. Both Nate and Richard make fair points — the answer is probably somewhere in between, and it depends on the tenant and property class.

    For workforce housing with longer-term tenants, annual inspections plus condition-based triggers (late rent, complaints, HOA notices, utility spikes) is a reasonable standard. Monthly visits across a whole portfolio are operationally impractical and yes, there are quiet enjoyment considerations to navigate.

    That said, the hoarding situation here didn't require monthly inspections to catch — it required the PM to actually do the annual inspection. If they had, floor-to-ceiling debris doesn't sneak up on you. The failure here was execution of the basic standard, not the standard itself.

    On Nate's point about unauthorized spend penalties — Richard's right that most PMs won't sign something that rigid, especially for emergency repairs where getting authorization first isn't always possible. But there's a workable middle ground: require written documentation of any expense that couldn't be approved in advance (what happened, what alternatives were considered, why immediate action was necessary), with photos. If the PM can't produce that, then disputed charges are fair game to deduct from future fees. That's a clause you can negotiate into an agreement without scaring off a good PM, because a good PM will never need to invoke it.

  • New to Real Estate · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 10 votes
    6mo

    Hey Jennie,that’s a tough situation!

    I’ve been noticing a pattern of owners feeling like they don’t have full visibility into what’s going on with their properties and getting hit with outrageous charges.

    I recently was in the same position a few months ago. Im curious to know if this was the first time you had conflict with your PM doing work without your approval, lack of proof etc? If not, why didnt you leave at the first sign of trouble?

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2026 · 12 posts · 11 votes
    6mo

    Fair pushback on the monthly interior piece. I should've been more specific. I don't walk all 14 interiors every month -- I do a monthly drive-by on every unit, exterior only, 5 minutes each. Full interior walkthrough is quarterly. That's where I'm checking HVAC filters, under sinks, smoke detectors, the usual. I agree monthly interior visits on a performing tenant would be excessive and I wouldn't do that to someone paying on time with no issues.

    On the authorization clause, I hear you on emergencies. Water main breaks at midnight, you can't wait for owner approval. But Jennie's situation wasn't an emergency. It was $20K in accumulated spend over what sounds like weeks or months with no single communication. That's the failure pattern I was pointing at. An emergency clause with documentation requirements after the fact handles the scenario you're describing without giving the PM a blank check.

  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5mo

    Oh my.....  Things happen, so it's not the events themselves I'm too concerned about, but the fact they spent 20k of YOUR money without you approving it would absolutely have me looking for a new PM.  And I wouldn't pay anything without receipts.  

  • Property Manager · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2014 · 77 posts · 29 votes
    5mo

    This is exactly why owners hate property managers. A $20k bill with no approval or photos isn't just bad management... it's theft. At Westrom, we don't do maintenance markups because it creates a conflict of interest where the PM profits off your pain. If your PM isn't getting your approval for anything over a few hundred bucks, fire them today. You deserve better than this.

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 4 votes
    2mo

    Thanks everyone for your advice!

    Unfortunately we decided to wind down our entire operations. Due to this horrible incident we have spent the past 10 months underwater. We finally decided to bite the bullet and switched to another PM but it was too late. Of the 4 properties we have, the hoarder cleanup resulted in 22k+ in renovation and fees, another one had a renter who hasn't been paying for months and finally been evicted under the new PM and owes $6k+ in rent and 2k in utilities, not to mention the amount of work items remaining on all properties due to terrible workmanship performed by the workers the previous PM... Seven years and four properties later, we're barely getting even because of one bad PM hire. 

    The expensive lesson here is to STAY AWAY FROM kjmanage.com

    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Jennie Ohyoung:

      Thanks everyone for your advice!

      Unfortunately we decided to wind down our entire operations. Due to this horrible incident we have spent the past 10 months underwater. We finally decided to bite the bullet and switched to another PM but it was too late. Of the 4 properties we have, the hoarder cleanup resulted in 22k+ in renovation and fees, another one had a renter who hasn't been paying for months and finally been evicted under the new PM and owes $6k+ in rent and 2k in utilities, not to mention the amount of work items remaining on all properties due to terrible workmanship performed by the workers the previous PM... Seven years and four properties later, we're barely getting even because of one bad PM hire. 

      The expensive lesson here is to STAY AWAY FROM kjmanage.com


       File a complaint against them with the realtors association that they are part of. They advertise it on their website. I had a bad PM on my short term rental (nothing like your situation) that pulled some scams. I filed an ethics complaint against him and we eventually had a "trial" with the REA, in which both he and his broker lost. It cost both of them $1000 in fines, a permanent record in the association and a probation status as well as required ethics & financial management training mandates for both. I never got any financial benefit but just watching them squirm as the hearing panel ate their lunch was worth the money I lost :) 

      Skyline Properties
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  • Specialist · Member since 2026 · 20 posts · 10 votes
    2mo

    That PM failed you. The lack of estimates, approvals, and staged updates is not "normal for older housing."  And not just a breakdown of basic process discipline, but a complete lack of it.

    The core issue here is not the cost of the rehab, but rather the absence of a documented, competitive bidding process. When a PM handles a project without defining the scope, getting multiple bids, or asking for approval, they are not protecting your margin. They are protecting their convenience, or worse, their vendors.

    Here is what should have happened:

    1. A defined scope of work before anything started.
    2. Multiple competitive bids on that scope.
    3. Clear, documented approval before any work began.
    4. Staged updates and change order approvals as the scope evolved.

    The fact that you received a $20k bill with no photos, no receipts, and no change order approvals is not a "bad situation." It is a bad system.

    To answer your questions directly:

    • *No, $20k without approval is not normal, unless you have approved them to make   those decisions.
    • *Scope creep should be managed with documented change orders, not surprise    invoices.
    • *The threshold for approval should be whatever is in your contract, and it should be    enforced.

    You are not wrong to question this. A good PM would have protected you from this. A great PM would have brought you multiple bids and a clear scope before touching anything.

    If you decide to keep the PM or find a new one, I would require a standardized bidding process for every project over a certain threshold. No exceptions. That is the only way to ensure you are actually protecting your margins.

    Happy to share more if you want to dig into the vendor side. Good luck, this is a tough situation and you are not wrong to be frustrated.

    • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 4 votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Pete Labath:

      That PM failed you. The lack of estimates, approvals, and staged updates is not "normal for older housing."  And not just a breakdown of basic process discipline, but a complete lack of it.

      The core issue here is not the cost of the rehab, but rather the absence of a documented, competitive bidding process. When a PM handles a project without defining the scope, getting multiple bids, or asking for approval, they are not protecting your margin. They are protecting their convenience, or worse, their vendors.

      Here is what should have happened:

      1. A defined scope of work before anything started.
      2. Multiple competitive bids on that scope.
      3. Clear, documented approval before any work began.
      4. Staged updates and change order approvals as the scope evolved.

      The fact that you received a $20k bill with no photos, no receipts, and no change order approvals is not a "bad situation." It is a bad system.

      To answer your questions directly:

      • *No, $20k without approval is not normal, unless you have approved them to make   those decisions.
      • *Scope creep should be managed with documented change orders, not surprise    invoices.
      • *The threshold for approval should be whatever is in your contract, and it should be    enforced.

      You are not wrong to question this. A good PM would have protected you from this. A great PM would have brought you multiple bids and a clear scope before touching anything.

      If you decide to keep the PM or find a new one, I would require a standardized bidding process for every project over a certain threshold. No exceptions. That is the only way to ensure you are actually protecting your margins.

      Happy to share more if you want to dig into the vendor side. Good luck, this is a tough situation and you are not wrong to be frustrated.

      After weeks of hounding him I received a bunch of pictures, screenshots, and texts of the so called receipts. I went through them one by one and things just looked shady. He's had receipts on work done on multiple properties (some not mine) and charged me the full amount, or texts labeled "brick guy". I simply demanded the 10% fee he charged me and he has denied me and started lying and posting private financial information about me online. 

      Thank god I am fully transitioned over to another PM, but the fact that he kept getting my online reviews removed (both Yelp and BBB) is infuriating! I have started a LARA complaint but still in disbelief the things people get away with!
  • Member since 2026 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    2mo

    Speaking as someone who's managed multifamily portfolios, what stands out to me isn't the $20,000 bill, it's the lack of communication.

    • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 4 votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Miranda Honoré:

      Speaking as someone who's managed multifamily portfolios, what stands out to me isn't the $20,000 bill, it's the lack of communication.

      HAH,well since my negative review on Yelp he's been very communicative:
      - The PM (Keith) offered to buy my all my properties as is (he's done this every time my properties go through a round of abuse
      - Shared my private financial information publicly on Yelp (most are false but still!)
      - Lied about a lot of things like me never setting foot in the area (I spent weeks in the area interviewing PMs and met him in person, looked at my property in person)
      - Insinuated that my properties went up in value because of him
      - Created a bunch of burner Yelp accounts to boost his rating on Yelp
      - Managed to get my Yelp review removed (most likely by using all his accounts to report me)

      The work Keith has done are so bad I have to go through rounds of fixes during the new PM handoff, not only have I not cash flowed in almost a year now, I'm also spending SO MUCH money to compensate for THIS ONE GREEDY PM! 

  • Andrew GlissonBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Memphis · Member since 2026 · 135 posts · 95 votes
    2mo
    What does your management agreement say regarding owner approvals?
    LPS Short and Long Term Property Management
  • Member since 2026 · 35 posts · 45 votes
    2mo

    Reading about situations like this reinforces for me how important it is to verify everything when working with a property manager. Ask questions when something doesn’t make sense or raises a concern. Don’t worry about being a bother—protecting your investment is more important.

    We had ongoing issues with our property manager: inconsistent reporting, confusing bills, and lack of lease enforcement. We had multiple evictions, including one where the property manager later admitted there was an oversight in placing a tenant who was actively fleeing another eviction. Adding to our concerns, the property manager was also advocating that we waive late fees for this same tenant and give them additional time to pay, even after the tenant was more than 2 months behind on rent.

    The more questions we asked and the more documentation we requested, the more difficult they became. We tried to address the issues, but their processes did not change. Eventually, they dropped us as clients — although we had already started looking for new management.

    Switching property managers is a pain, but we feel it is better to deal with the inconvenience rather than risk bigger problems later. A good property manager should provide transparency, communication, and confidence that your investment is being protected.

  • Member since 2026 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    2mo

    I'm really sorry you're going through this. It sounds like the situation has become about much more than just poor property management.

    At the end of the day, a property manager's job is to protect the owner's investment, communicate transparently, and make ownership easier—not create additional costs, stress, and uncertainty. Having to spend so much time and money fixing preventable issues is incredibly frustrating.

    I hope you're able to get everything back on track soon. Wishing you the best as you work through it.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2mo

    Sell the place. Buy in an area where you have multiple 700 plus credit tenants who have professional jobs applying. In these areas the chance of a bad tenant with proper due dilligance is extreamly low. The areas with bad tenant pool are complete losers regardless of who is managing. 

  • Adam BartomeoBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2mo

    We have a $500 maintenance limit. Anything above that and we seek owner approval. In an emergency situation, if we cannot get in touch with the owner than I, the broker, will make the call to move forward or not. But, I have never had an emergency above $1000

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