My Thoughts on the Current Economy (Will I Upset All Parties?)

My Thoughts on the Current Economy (Will I Upset All Parties?)

Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes

This is a monologue, but I'm interested to see reactions. I've been mulling over a number of high level things, and think that economic reality in 2022 is very different than people (media, left, right, etc.) perceive it. I'm sure my opinions will anger folks on the left, right, center, and those who are libertarian. This should be fun.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Wage Growth is strong, has been strong, and we are nearing all-time REAL wage highs (adjusted for inflation): Real median wages have been increasing on average over the past 10 years. People who say that wages haven't been keeping up with inflation over the 10 years are just dead wrong. They are supporting (intentionally or inadvertently) a narrative that is patently false. Median American quality of life has been improving, not regressing, over the past 10 years and through both the Obama and Trump administrations.

Now, in the past year, it's harder to make sense of the noise around real wages with stimulus, COVID, and inflation offering puts and takes. It's just hard to interpret the data right now in the immediate past.

 Either way, we are in the midst of a ten year bull market for the American worker's wages and real wages are up. No, this hasn't benefitted everyone, but it's benefitted the median wage earner in this country. The narrative that wages haven't kept up with inflation over the past 10 years is a myth. They have. And then some. They are at the highest point in the last 50 years. It's probably safe to say that there are no Americans currently working today who have experienced a period of higher median wages than exist today in this country.

While this isn't true for all Americans, again, it is true at the median level - meaning it is true for most.

2) Current Inflation and Fed Policy is hurting everyone, but it is hurting the wealthy more than the little guy right now. Everyone hurts when interest rates rise, asset prices fall, and inflation kicks in. In the current scenario, the poor and middle class are seeing their wages go less far - that's definitely pain. However, the wealthy are seeing less cash flow, their assets decreasing substantially in value, and their purchasing power decrease due to inflation. It's still better to be wealthy than poor. The rich are still better off than the poor. But, the current economic environment is hurting the rich more than the poor. As it should, frankly. We have a long way to go to undo the inequality created over the past decade, but the process for that undoing has begun:

3) Income and Wealth Inequality are decreasing, RIGHT NOW (this is healthy and needed!): Income and wealth inequality exploded over the past 10 years, with the wealthiest getting way richer, as low interest rates and easy money substantially increased asset values. However, current policy is actively reducing this wealth gap for the first time in a long time. Reducing income inequality has to come with this pain, all around (wealthy, middle class, and poor), as I stated earlier. The middle class are losing 10% of their purchasing power, offset by whatever raises they are getting. The rich are are experiencing the same, but with asset prices cratering. That's pain all around, but disproportionate pain at the top, with the wealthy.

4) Yes, The Fed Screwed up over the past 10 years with baffling easy money policy long after the economy had recovered: Everyone was baffled by the easy money that persisted way longer than it seemed was necessary. This was uncalled for, clearly seemed stupid, and persisted for about 5 years more than it needed to. It has to be undone. And the work to undo it has begun in earnest.

5) But, The Fed (and Jerome Powell specifically) are and will be less political than you think: I'm not talking about Janet Yellen or Bernanke. They might well have been stimulating the economy to support some political agenda or the other. I'm talking about Jerome Powell. Jay Powell has no reason to support the Biden administration. He has no reason to save the economy. He has no reason to keep your home's price stable. He has no reason to support the stock market. He has one job (I'll explain why it's not two jobs in a second): Beat Inflation. His job is not to care about the federal deficit or debt balance. It has nothing to do with those things. Not his problem. Everyone already thinks he was wrong to not go after inflation last year (he was). He has no political support. He has no political allegiance. He is completely free to pursue the Fed's charter without any real distraction.

6) The REAL Federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows. Adjusting for inflation, the real minimum wage hasn't been as low as $7.25 since the 1940s. 

7) The minimum wage matters, because the Dual Charter of the Fed (Keep both Inflation and Unemployment low) is BS in 2022's context - they can go after inflation exclusively without worrying about jobs: The Fed is technically supposed to target both low unemployment and low inflation. But, the minimum wage is so low (in REAL dollar terms) and inflation is so high, that they can push interest rates to the moon and people will still be able to get jobs. This means that they will be able to go to town combatting inflation without having to worry about unemployment for a looooonnngggg time. 

8) Most Importantly, I believe Jerome Powell will do what he says... now: It was obvious to most that the Fed was full of it last year when they were talking about "transitory inflation". That was crap. Now, however, Jerome Powell has acknowledged inflation and is saying that he is 100% committed to beating inflation. I believe him. I don't know how long we will see inflation for, but I believe that the Fed will attack with rising interest rates until they beat inflation. 

9) The Fed may have to push, hard, and for a long time, to beat inflation, because Americans have so much cash. Americans and corporations are sitting on $3T in cash more than what we would have expected without COVID ($18T total), stimulus, and the rest of it. Folks don't abandon their corporate strategies after a bad quarter. Folks don't downgrade their lifestyle after a bad couple of months. Many Americans and businesses are prepared for tought times, with plenty of access to liquidity. They will abandon ship only when forced to.

10) The Dollar, and US Monetary Policy is Still the Best financial system in the world. NO, another currency is not going to dethrone the dollar anytime soon (sorry bitcoin people): Yes, we have inflation. Yes, the Fed acted in a truly egregious manner over the past 10 years with easy money long after it made any sense to continue QE and historically low interest rates. But that doesn't change the fact that the dollar is a much better currency than gold, bitcoin, Ethereum, Yuan, Euros, Yen, Pesos, or Rupees. The dollar, a fiat currency, is indexed to a basket of goods and services, and when maintained by good central bankers, inflates at pretty close to 2% per year over the long-term. 

Look, both inflation and deflation are bad. But deflation is way, way, way worse than inflation. Moderate inflation encourages spending, growth, and investment. Moderate deflation creates spirals of hoarding wealth that results in lost jobs, lower production, and worse. We want to avoid deflationary spirals however we can. Gold, Bitcoin, and Ethereum remove the power to control the supply of currency from governments or central banks. They will result in deflationary spirals periodically that hurt economies and devastate lives, if they are adopted as a reserve currency. Bad Fiat currencies (like Argentina or Zimbabwe) can experience hyperinflation, true, which presents well publicized horrors for people and economies. But, ones run by good central banks can prevent runaway inflation. 

The dollar is in some ways a terrible currency (it can be printed at the will of the Fed, there's nothing backing it but trust), but in other ways it is a perfect currency (it is indexed to purchasing power against a basket of goods and services, and can be printed at will - yes this is both a plus and a minus for ordinary Americans). This means that the Fed can control inflation, and long-term, they do a pretty good job at this, the current period excluded. 

11) There is no serious challenger to the world reserve status of the dollar. It is preposterous to think that an asset like bitcoin, gold or ethereum will overtake the dollar. There is no serious international challenger to the dollar. The Chinese have a long history of manipulating the Yuan. The Euro is too volatile and subject to political risk. It's silly to think that a relatively small country like India, Japan, or Korea will see their currency ascend. Etc. 

The Fed won't let that happen. Because as bad as they handled parts of the late 2010s, they are still the best central bank in the world, by a lot. 

12) The US Government has a serious debt problem - but the Fed does not have ownership over this problem and won't come to the rescue. Separate and unrelated from Federal Reserve policy, the US has a big deficit (much of which is indexed to inflation, by the way, so we can't inflate our way out of the annual deficit), and a massive cumulative debt (this burden can be reduced with inflation). This will have to be addressed. However, this is not the Federal Reserve's problem. At some point, elected officials will have to stare this down and begin making hard choices. Who knows when this hand is forced? 

So what:

What this means to me is that: 

- There is a lot of reason to believe that inflation is here and here to stay for some time. 

- The Fed will respond, and respond aggressively, to inflation, and this may mean interest rates rise for months or years consistently and aggressively. Folks who say that they won't for fear of economic turmoil in my opinion seriously misunderstand the Fed's role, purpose, and leadership.

- This is not a good time to be speculative or to think "buy low, sell high", because interest rates rising will drive down asset prices on any business, real estate, or speculative asset that you can borrow against. 

- It's a fine time to buy assets that are likely to see cash flow increase with inflation, so long as you can live with the market prices of those assets falling in the short-term or medium term. 

- The US is still the best economy in the world, the dollar still the best currency. There's no serious threat to that. Panic is unwise. 

- Fundamentals and being conservative, with a long-term outlook, pay off in times like this. 

- Nothing changes for my long-term approach of consistently buying stocks and real estate, maintaining a very strong cash reserve, and spending much less than I earn each passing month.

- I probably made the liberals angry, the conservatives angry, the bitcoin people angry, and the libertarians angry. I still think this is an accurate representation of reality. Please yell at me in the comments and tell me where you think I'm wrong or need more nuance.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
4y

The only thing Id push back here is in Powell's independence. It is unlikely the current executive will pressure Powell....however we have already seen that Powell will easily cave to pressure from the executive when applied. March - June of 2020 is the prime example of this, but not the only example by any means. Powell continually did the bidding of the White House for years. 

Which btw, is exactly why we have the current inflation problem.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    I think you have a lot of nice opinions there. Thank you for taking the time to write them down for us to peruse.

    The things I think are most relevant to any discussion on the economy are these: 1) A debate on the economy is like the debate about weather/climate change - it changes constantly and recycles constantly. 2) The Fed can do what it wants to 'fix' the current inflation/recession/whatever, it doesn't really matter.....but the elephant in the room will not go away, that is 3) We are in a s**t ton of debt trouble and one day, I believe soon, it will come down around our ears and make a discussion like this totally irrelevant.

    Just my .02....nobody ever listens to me anyway....

  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    I really really wanted to read all of this, and I tried, twice. It just made me feel less intelligent as I don’t understand a lot of it. Haha.  But I gave it a go, @Scott Trench, I respect who you are on here (and that you’ve liked a few of my comments along the way) 

  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Matt M.:

    I really really wanted to read all of this, and I tried, twice. It just made me feel less intelligent as I don’t understand a lot of it. Haha.  But I gave it a go, @Scott Trench, I respect who you are on here (and that you’ve liked a few of my comments along the way) 


     Ha! Thanks for the comment I suppose :) I appreciate your comment and the value you add regularly to the forums!

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    4y

    The only thing Id push back here is in Powell's independence. It is unlikely the current executive will pressure Powell....however we have already seen that Powell will easily cave to pressure from the executive when applied. March - June of 2020 is the prime example of this, but not the only example by any means. Powell continually did the bidding of the White House for years. 

    Which btw, is exactly why we have the current inflation problem.

  • Wadsworth, OH · Member since 2021 · 110 posts · 91 votes
    4y

    This is why I don’t watch the news or pay attention to any of this sort of stuff. There are so many different opinions out there… and everyone is sure that their opinion is right and that others are wrong, and then things get emotional and people get angry… etc. 

    Maybe you’ll say I’m dumb for not caring or not educating myself in these things, but I can’t get involved with out feeling like I’m polluting my mind and my heart. 

    I find my time better spent enjoying life with my wife, collecting rentals and flipping houses, never knowing what the next day holds, but always living in such a way as honors the Lord. 

  • Member since 2022 · 17 posts · 4 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    I think you have a lot of nice opinions there. Thank you for taking the time to write them down for us to peruse.

    The things I think are most relevant to any discussion on the economy are these: 1) A debate on the economy is like the debate about weather/climate change - it changes constantly and recycles constantly. 2) The Fed can do what it wants to 'fix' the current inflation/recession/whatever, it doesn't really matter.....but the elephant in the room will not go away, that is 3) We are in a s**t ton of debt trouble and one day, I believe soon, it will come down around our ears and make a discussion like this totally irrelevant.

    Just my .02....nobody ever listens to me anyway....


    Perfect.  I would just add..1) And you have no control over it. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Scott Trench

    I agree with what I can understand lol - Got a question for you though...so we have inflation right now, we have high asset prices (insane "appreciation" in the past couple of years), and we had, what seemed to me very high demand over the past couple of years. 

    What do you think is the primary cause of the high demand right now? (I'd guess interest rates were the primary driver)

    Other argument I hear is "supply is low", prices will stay high and continue to rise cause supply is low. I'm not overly sure this is the case myself. It seems like the extraordinarily high demand is what caused prices to rise. The demand can change quickly (by lowering interest rates, creating money) whereas the supply side takes MUCH longer to move (ie: we did not have a meteor that wiped out half of the houses in the US). 

    What say you on how supply/demand will effect home prices in the coming years?

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 268 posts · 162 votes
    4y
    Excellent assessment. Like everyone, I have minor disagreements (such as we need to more strongly support wages of lower income folks, more work to offset the dangerous income inequality, independence of Powell, etc) but your assessment is spot on.

    I see a lot of folks having problems understanding it and I'm not sure why. It's imperative now more than ever that Americans are keenly in tune with real news of the day.

    Thanks for putting this out there! 
  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

    @Scott Trench

    I agree with what I can understand lol - Got a question for you though...so we have inflation right now, we have high asset prices (insane "appreciation" in the past couple of years), and we had, what seemed to me very high demand over the past couple of years. 

    What do you think is the primary cause of the high demand right now? (I'd guess interest rates were the primary driver)

    Other argument I hear is "supply is low", prices will stay high and continue to rise cause supply is low. I'm not overly sure this is the case myself. It seems like the extraordinarily high demand is what caused prices to rise. The demand can change quickly (by lowering interest rates, creating money) whereas the supply side takes MUCH longer to move (ie: we did not have a meteor that wiped out half of the houses in the US). 

    What say you on how supply/demand will effect home prices in the coming years?

    Supply and demand is tricky. 

    While interest rates definitely dampen demand in a general sense, for now that seems offset by the fact that Americans have $18T in cash, and the world is finally open again - we can spend that money and actually enjoy life.

    with housing specifically, interest rates impact both demand and supply. While it’s true that moving housing stock in a broader sense is a long game (you have to literally build more units), interest rates impact SUPPLY in the short term because of the “lock in” effect.

    Imagine you live in a nice home you bought three years ago in Denver. It’s worth $600,000, and you have a $400,000 mortgage with a $2,000 monthly payment at 3.5%.

    Suppose you get a job offer in Chicago that comes with a 10% raise. You now have to sell your home and buy an equivalent $600,000 home in Chicago. Your mortgage on your new home is 5.8%, and your payment is $2,600.

    That 10% raise has mostly evaporated because of the higher interest rate and resulting higher mortgage payments. Your house isn’t going on the market. You aren’t moving.

    Thus, supply has come down, and there are fewer transactions. So interest rates rising impact supply to a certain degree because of this phenomenon. Folks are locked in because there is no better option than staying put.


  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    This is a monologue, but I'm interested to see reactions. I've been mulling over a number of high level things, and think that economic reality in 2022 is very different than people (media, left, right, etc.) perceive it. I'm sure my opinions will anger folks on the left, right, center, and those who are libertarian. This should be fun.

    Here are some thoughts:

    1) Wage Growth is strong, has been strong, and we are nearing all-time REAL wage highs (adjusted for inflation): Real median wages have been increasing on average over the past 10 years. ....

    10 years is a grain of sand on the beach.

    It used to be ANY average man could get a (40 hour a week) W2 job that paid enough to own a house, own a car, have 8 kids and wife who did not work outside the home, be able to live comfortably, and  save for a rainy day (with no credit cards) and have a retirement pension.

    Now today, are there jobs like this widely available for Men (or Women)? I don't see them. Just a lot of paycheck to paycheck slaves with their heads just enough above water to prevent drowning. 

    What happened to the Wage rates (???)

    Yes they say wages keep up with inflation, but when you really look at--in real life--they don't.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0DvXQ05Xw8


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLGG5AWJf7M
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

    What do you think is the primary cause of the high demand right now? (I'd guess interest rates were the primary driver)

    What say you on how supply/demand will effect home prices in the coming years?


    1) My .02 - Low interest rates and lack of inventory have been driving this craziness

    2) Supply and demand go out the window when the economy goes crazy....either hyper-inflation or a recession.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:

    Like everyone, I have minor disagreements (such as we need to more strongly support wages of lower income folks, more work to offset the dangerous income inequality, independence of Powell, etc) 

    Not like everyone. You should speak for yourself only.

    No one I know is concerned about wages of low income folks...... They need to get higher paying jobs, period, problem solved. 

    And there is no such thing as 'dangerous income equality', what the heck is that? Some people are billionaires, others struggle to be middle class. It's about choices and some luck. Nothing dangerous there, just reality.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 268 posts · 162 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:

    Like everyone, I have minor disagreements (such as we need to more strongly support wages of lower income folks, more work to offset the dangerous income inequality, independence of Powell, etc) 

    Not like everyone. You should speak for yourself only.

    No one I know is concerned about wages of low income folks...... They need to get higher paying jobs, period, problem solved. 

    And there is no such thing as 'dangerous income equality', what the heck is that? Some people are billionaires, others struggle to be middle class. It's about choices and some luck. Nothing dangerous there, just reality.


     I would recommend you read more about the economic and social problems with income inequality. It seems you don't know. 

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    4y

    Well written and well reasoned. I'm pretty much on board all the way.

    Adding some additional observations, some real estate and others economic in general:

    1. I think it's entirely possible the real estate market stays high and never comes down, but just becomes a smaller percentage of overall GDP due to a permanent reduction in sellers and buyers. High prices don't foretell the collapse of any market as long as there's a constant balance between buyer and seller. Look at the rare book market, art market, etc - all healthy and seeing record prices, but a virtual blip on the economy as a whole because there's only just a few (relative) people who participate. You don't see sellers rushing to cut their prices of Picassos to generate buying interest - they just hold on to them until they can sell for what they want. 

    2. The danger in #1 is that people still need places to live. A smaller house sales market will push more people into rentals, which will drive those prices up and push the people on the margins out altogether. More working-class will be living in the hinterlands or living 3 families to a flat trying to make ends meet and more people will be screaming for politicians to do something, which will inevitably be the wrong thing because it's not the kind of problem you can solve without actually doing something (i.e. building more housing). All of which will lead to more social unrest for certain. 

    3. No currency in the world is going to supplant the dollar any time in my lifetime, I am assuredly confident. Any means of currency is nothing more than confidence and agreement - confidence that the currency will continue to hold value, and agreement on what that value is by a critical mass of individuals. Some currencies have the benefit of years - centuries in the case of gold or silver - of meeting these two criteria, but that is not guaranteed going forward. Even the idea of "fiat" currency is something of a joke, because all that means is that it's not backstopped by another stable currency (gold or silver for most). There's nothing about gold or silver that makes it inherently more or less valuable other than general agreement by societies. 

    4. There's a crazy amount of money in circulation right now. It is going to take a tamp down of all the cash out there before we get this inflation under control. 

    5. If the federal government was smart it would take advantage of the massive amount of cash flying around to increase revenue and kill the federal debt. Instead of parceling out more money for more programs. That would be the gift that keeps on giving. 

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  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 3 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:

    Like everyone, I have minor disagreements (such as we need to more strongly support wages of lower income folks, more work to offset the dangerous income inequality, independence of Powell, etc) 

    Not like everyone. You should speak for yourself only.

    No one I know is concerned about wages of low income folks...... They need to get higher paying jobs, period, problem solved. 

    And there is no such thing as 'dangerous income equality', what the heck is that? Some people are billionaires, others struggle to be middle class. It's about choices and some luck. Nothing dangerous there, just reality.

    Well said @Bruce Woodruff 

    @Kelly Sennholz while I’m sure your intentions are stellar- handicapping people by taking away motivation to move up is not a good long term/big picture outlook for anyone. It is what keeps the cycle of poverty up by means of taking advantage of the people in tough times in order to keep them dependent and controlled. 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:

    Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 268 posts · 162 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:

    Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know.


    Here is a website, looks like could help you. https://equalitytrust.org.uk/a...
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    I am 100 percent agree with you except income inequality, it's actually widening. The biggerpocket is actually one of the tools that enhance this widening gap because BP helps people to invest in real estate lol.

    Just image 10 years ago only 1 out 10 houses are investor's house,now it's 1 to 5. We are entering feudal era where there're two class in the systems. The landlord and the renter.  These are indication of wealth gap as folks can't buy house and investors are accumulating more and more.

  • Jonathan KlemmBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    Hey @Scott Trench - Really appreciate your post and incite.  Love how you are clearly pointing out the facts that are specific to America (if we were born here or had the opportunity to get to the United States most of us underappreciated how blessed we are).  

    My favorite part of your post = "Fundamentals and being conservative, with a long-term outlook, pay off in times like this."

    Also, I appreciate the Chicago shoutout otherwise I wouldn't have seen this post.

    @Moises Correa

  • Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
    4y

    @Scott Trench  I may be mis-understanding, but I was wondering if you could clarify a couple things...

    In 1), you say that we're nearing all-time real wage highs (adjusted for inflation), but in 6) you say that the real federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows   ...Isn't that contradictory? How do you square the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet the federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows? ...I suppose that theoretically, the median wage could be near an all time high while the minimum wage is near an all time low, but it seems contradictory...

    Also, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet (as others have pointed out), for the average American, it seems much more difficult to make ends meet compared to a generation or two ago... As was mentioned, a generation or two ago, Americans could afford to buy a nice house, have two cars, support multiple children, have minimal or no debt, and adequate reserves for a comfortable retirement--all with nothing more than a high school diploma...today, we have folks with advanced degrees, no kids, no house, tons of debt, who live paycheck to paycheck.  ...this dynamic seems to support the idea that costs of living have far outpaced Americans' earnings over the last couple generations.... I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...

    Thanks!

  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Leo R.:

    @Scott Trench  I may be mis-understanding, but I was wondering if you could clarify a couple things...

    In 1), you say that we're nearing all-time real wage highs (adjusted for inflation), but in 6) you say that the real federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows   ...Isn't that contradictory? How do you square the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet the federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows? ...I suppose that theoretically, the median wage could be near an all time high while the minimum wage is near an all time low, but it seems contradictory...

    Also, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet (as others have pointed out), for the average American, it seems much more difficult to make ends meet compared to a generation or two ago... As was mentioned, a generation or two ago, Americans could afford to buy a nice house, have two cars, support multiple children, have minimal or no debt, and adequate reserves for a comfortable retirement--all with nothing more than a high school diploma...today, we have folks with advanced degrees, no kids, no house, tons of debt, who live paycheck to paycheck.  ...this dynamic seems to support the idea that costs of living have far outpaced Americans' earnings over the last couple generations.... I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...

    Thanks!

     1) Great question! 

    Imagine that there were no minimum wage at all. In today's economy, how much would McDonald's be hiring entry level employees at? It's tempting to think "$1.00 an hour", but that would not be the case. I drive by a local McDonalds that is advertising $18 per hour for entry level positions. 

    That's because no one is willing to work for minimum wage. This is true in many places around the US. For the minimum wage to have any impact on what McDonald's pays it's workers, it would have to be $18.50 per hour. 

    Effectively, we don't really have a meaningful minimum wage right now - because there are so few people who are willing to work for $7.25 an hour, even entry level positions, like flipping burgers at McDonalds have to pay much, much more than that. Now, there are people who argue whether there should be a minimum wage or not, but the current economic climate appears to be a vote in favor of eliminating the minimum wage or keeping it at it's current level. Most who want a job are able to get one, and at least where I live and drive to, it appears, that they can do so at double the current Federal Minimum wage, easily.

    I predict that one impact of this will be that a lot more high schoolers and teenagers are employed in coming years - as they are the ones who are likely to be hired at or near the minimum wage. This could be very good for our economy long-term.

    So, with the current minimum wage is nearing an all time low - the effect is similar to not having a minimum wage at all. And we are able to see that the minimum wage, when it is very low or nonexistent, may be disconnected with median wages - they are going up, even as the minimum wage does not change. 

    2) Personally, I am a little skeptical of this claim that life was better a generation ago. That's how people feel, but the data doesn't seem to back that up. Here's a great study that in my opinion debunks the claim that the 1980s were better than today. It's not ALL better today, but I think that the data make an overwhelmingly strong case that it is much, much better to be alive and American in 2022 than it was in the 1980s across a broad range of important quantifiable items.

    I think that it always seems like the old days were better. Houses are much bigger today. Cars much more reliable, get better gas mileage. We have things like the internet, personal computers, smartphones. Healthy food is easier to come by and more Americans are eating it. The same goods you bought in 1980, with the notable exceptions of tuition and healthcare, are cheaper today, adjusted for inflation and wages. Housing costs have essentially not changed - per the study I sent above. Relatively speaking, travel is much easier and more affordable (as evidenced that more people travel now).

    I think that things are more unequal (although inequality is at the very beginning stages of starting to correct in this past 6 month period) today than they were a generation ago. Perhaps this is why so many people feel that the old days were better.

    A great book on this topic is "Factfulness" - most people think that the world is getting worse and worse with each passing year and through the generations. The reverse is true. People are generally richer, living longer, there are fewer deaths for children, and there are fewer disasters. The media, however, is more centralized, and more efficient than ever at finding the problems in society, highlighting them, and doing so in a way that drives engagement. People click on disaster, so the news reports it. 

    Case in point, Violent crime has dropped by nearly 50% on a per capita basis over the last 35 years and it bounces around at this new, historical low, up and down slightly each year. It's hard to find a time when you have been safer as an American than over the past 5 years. Yet, if you get your news from mainstream media like Fox, CNN, the NY Times, or the WSJ, you'd think we are falling off a cliff! That gets headlines, but the real story is one of prosperity, improving quality of life, and falling crime rates. 

    No, this is not true for everyone. No this doesn't mean that we don't have our problems we have to fix. But, the story is that the economy continues to improve for the median American.

  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Scott Trench the study you posted as then vs now shows a lot of interesting trends that I do agree indicate better health and quality of life overall, however only one of those charts touch on housing affordability. Plus it uses 1984 as a starting point. I'd like to see a chart of median house price to median salary ratios/multipliers over the years starting in 1950 if not earlier, which I imagine would show that multiplier going up over time, especially in desirable areas. 

    A big component of the "you could graduate from, buy a house, raise 3 kids and send them to college on a factory salary" narrative is the world we lived in post WW2. Most of the industrialized world was in ruins, especially Europe and Japan, and the developing world (Asia, LATAM, Africa) did not have the infrastructure to support manufacturing at scale. Therefore the US had a virtual monopoly on supplying its own market and others. Plus we didn't have worldwide telecom infrastructure and later the internet that would facilitate outsourcing, so the labor market was more able to unionize and assert itself. 

    OTOH, you can also see those trends illustrated in those charts that show the prices of appliances, batteries, etc going down because we traded the viability of our own manufacturing and domestic blue collar work force for cheaper stuff. The vast majority of us are guilty of this. Which increases income inequality because we voluntarily give our money to companies like amazon because at the end of the day, it makes our lives easier and costs us less. I'm not sure if I agree that the lower class is getting significantly poorer- more that the super rich just keep getting richer. 

  • New to Real Estate · Boston, MA · Member since 2020 · 30 posts · 20 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:
    Quote from @Leo R.:

    @Scott Trench  I may be mis-understanding, but I was wondering if you could clarify a couple things...

    In 1), you say that we're nearing all-time real wage highs (adjusted for inflation), but in 6) you say that the real federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows   ...Isn't that contradictory? How do you square the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet the federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows? ...I suppose that theoretically, the median wage could be near an all time high while the minimum wage is near an all time low, but it seems contradictory...

    Also, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet (as others have pointed out), for the average American, it seems much more difficult to make ends meet compared to a generation or two ago... As was mentioned, a generation or two ago, Americans could afford to buy a nice house, have two cars, support multiple children, have minimal or no debt, and adequate reserves for a comfortable retirement--all with nothing more than a high school diploma...today, we have folks with advanced degrees, no kids, no house, tons of debt, who live paycheck to paycheck.  ...this dynamic seems to support the idea that costs of living have far outpaced Americans' earnings over the last couple generations.... I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...

    Thanks!

     1) Great question! 

    Imagine that there were no minimum wage at all. In today's economy, how much would McDonald's be hiring entry level employees at? It's tempting to think "$1.00 an hour", but that would not be the case. I drive by a local McDonalds that is advertising $18 per hour for entry level positions. 

    That's because no one is willing to work for minimum wage. This is true in many places around the US. For the minimum wage to have any impact on what McDonald's pays it's workers, it would have to be $18.50 per hour. 

    Effectively, we don't really have a meaningful minimum wage right now - because there are so few people who are willing to work for $7.25 an hour, even entry level positions, like flipping burgers at McDonalds have to pay much, much more than that. Now, there are people who argue whether there should be a minimum wage or not, but the current economic climate appears to be a vote in favor of eliminating the minimum wage or keeping it at it's current level. Most who want a job are able to get one, and at least where I live and drive to, it appears, that they can do so at double the current Federal Minimum wage, easily.

    I predict that one impact of this will be that a lot more high schoolers and teenagers are employed in coming years - as they are the ones who are likely to be hired at or near the minimum wage. This could be very good for our economy long-term.

    So, with the current minimum wage is nearing an all time low - the effect is similar to not having a minimum wage at all. And we are able to see that the minimum wage, when it is very low or nonexistent, may be disconnected with median wages - they are going up, even as the minimum wage does not change. 

    2) Personally, I am a little skeptical of this claim that life was better a generation ago. That's how people feel, but the data doesn't seem to back that up. Here's a great study that in my opinion debunks the claim that the 1980s were better than today. It's not ALL better today, but I think that the data make an overwhelmingly strong case that it is much, much better to be alive and American in 2022 than it was in the 1980s across a broad range of important quantifiable items.

    I think that it always seems like the old days were better. Houses are much bigger today. Cars much more reliable, get better gas mileage. We have things like the internet, personal computers, smartphones. Healthy food is easier to come by and more Americans are eating it. The same goods you bought in 1980, with the notable exceptions of tuition and healthcare, are cheaper today, adjusted for inflation and wages. Housing costs have essentially not changed - per the study I sent above. Relatively speaking, travel is much easier and more affordable (as evidenced that more people travel now).

    I think that things are more unequal (although inequality is at the very beginning stages of starting to correct in this past 6 month period) today than they were a generation ago. Perhaps this is why so many people feel that the old days were better.

    A great book on this topic is "Factfulness" - most people think that the world is getting worse and worse with each passing year and through the generations. The reverse is true. People are generally richer, living longer, there are fewer deaths for children, and there are fewer disasters. The media, however, is more centralized, and more efficient than ever at finding the problems in society, highlighting them, and doing so in a way that drives engagement. People click on disaster, so the news reports it. 

    Case in point, Violent crime has dropped by nearly 50% on a per capita basis over the last 35 years and it bounces around at this new, historical low, up and down slightly each year. It's hard to find a time when you have been safer as an American than over the past 5 years. Yet, if you get your news from mainstream media like Fox, CNN, the NY Times, or the WSJ, you'd think we are falling off a cliff! That gets headlines, but the real story is one of prosperity, improving quality of life, and falling crime rates. 

    No, this is not true for everyone. No this doesn't mean that we don't have our problems we have to fix. But, the story is that the economy continues to improve for the median American.


    Thanks for taking the time to write all of this! Factfulness is a fantastic book and it definitely changes your perspective on how we view the world as a whole.

  • Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:
    Quote from @Leo R.:

    @Scott Trench  I may be mis-understanding, but I was wondering if you could clarify a couple things...

    In 1), you say that we're nearing all-time real wage highs (adjusted for inflation), but in 6) you say that the real federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows   ...Isn't that contradictory? How do you square the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet the federal minimum wage is nearing historical lows? ...I suppose that theoretically, the median wage could be near an all time high while the minimum wage is near an all time low, but it seems contradictory...

    Also, I'd be interested to hear how you reconcile the idea that we're at all time wage highs, yet (as others have pointed out), for the average American, it seems much more difficult to make ends meet compared to a generation or two ago... As was mentioned, a generation or two ago, Americans could afford to buy a nice house, have two cars, support multiple children, have minimal or no debt, and adequate reserves for a comfortable retirement--all with nothing more than a high school diploma...today, we have folks with advanced degrees, no kids, no house, tons of debt, who live paycheck to paycheck.  ...this dynamic seems to support the idea that costs of living have far outpaced Americans' earnings over the last couple generations.... I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...

    Thanks!

     1) Great question! 

    Imagine that there were no minimum wage at all. In today's economy, how much would McDonald's be hiring entry level employees at? It's tempting to think "$1.00 an hour", but that would not be the case. I drive by a local McDonalds that is advertising $18 per hour for entry level positions. 

    That's because no one is willing to work for minimum wage. This is true in many places around the US. For the minimum wage to have any impact on what McDonald's pays it's workers, it would have to be $18.50 per hour. 

    Effectively, we don't really have a meaningful minimum wage right now - because there are so few people who are willing to work for $7.25 an hour, even entry level positions, like flipping burgers at McDonalds have to pay much, much more than that. Now, there are people who argue whether there should be a minimum wage or not, but the current economic climate appears to be a vote in favor of eliminating the minimum wage or keeping it at it's current level. Most who want a job are able to get one, and at least where I live and drive to, it appears, that they can do so at double the current Federal Minimum wage, easily.

    I predict that one impact of this will be that a lot more high schoolers and teenagers are employed in coming years - as they are the ones who are likely to be hired at or near the minimum wage. This could be very good for our economy long-term.

    So, with the current minimum wage is nearing an all time low - the effect is similar to not having a minimum wage at all. And we are able to see that the minimum wage, when it is very low or nonexistent, may be disconnected with median wages - they are going up, even as the minimum wage does not change. 

    2) Personally, I am a little skeptical of this claim that life was better a generation ago. That's how people feel, but the data doesn't seem to back that up. Here's a great study that in my opinion debunks the claim that the 1980s were better than today. It's not ALL better today, but I think that the data make an overwhelmingly strong case that it is much, much better to be alive and American in 2022 than it was in the 1980s across a broad range of important quantifiable items.

    I think that it always seems like the old days were better. Houses are much bigger today. Cars much more reliable, get better gas mileage. We have things like the internet, personal computers, smartphones. Healthy food is easier to come by and more Americans are eating it. The same goods you bought in 1980, with the notable exceptions of tuition and healthcare, are cheaper today, adjusted for inflation and wages. Housing costs have essentially not changed - per the study I sent above. Relatively speaking, travel is much easier and more affordable (as evidenced that more people travel now).

    I think that things are more unequal (although inequality is at the very beginning stages of starting to correct in this past 6 month period) today than they were a generation ago. Perhaps this is why so many people feel that the old days were better.

    A great book on this topic is "Factfulness" - most people think that the world is getting worse and worse with each passing year and through the generations. The reverse is true. People are generally richer, living longer, there are fewer deaths for children, and there are fewer disasters. The media, however, is more centralized, and more efficient than ever at finding the problems in society, highlighting them, and doing so in a way that drives engagement. People click on disaster, so the news reports it. 

    Case in point, Violent crime has dropped by nearly 50% on a per capita basis over the last 35 years and it bounces around at this new, historical low, up and down slightly each year. It's hard to find a time when you have been safer as an American than over the past 5 years. Yet, if you get your news from mainstream media like Fox, CNN, the NY Times, or the WSJ, you'd think we are falling off a cliff! That gets headlines, but the real story is one of prosperity, improving quality of life, and falling crime rates. 

    No, this is not true for everyone. No this doesn't mean that we don't have our problems we have to fix. But, the story is that the economy continues to improve for the median American.

    Thanks @Scott Trench for this substantive response--I appreciate the thought and level of detail you provided, and this does help clarify the topic for me.  I'll check out the book you mentioned!  

    Steven Pinker (a well known and highly respected cognitive psychologist) talks and writes about how--by many objective measures--life is much better for most people today than in previous generations. Dr. Pinker's message definitely aligns with what you described regarding the "then vs. now" debate...as Billy Joel sang: "the good old days weren't always good!"   :)

    Cheers!

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    @Scott Trench When you refer to the quality of life generally being better now than then, there are always a few factors that we can't put a price or number on......how people feel, how happy the are, how well balanced the society is, etc...

    It is not just about the money. You look like you are in your mid thirties (?) so you understandably would have no point of reference to gauge how far down we have slipped in a few decades.....

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