Millennial's growing poorer

Millennial's growing poorer

Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Listening to people beat up on the young folks for having their student loans paid off. Look at this people born between 81 and 96 are getting poorer while the rest of us are getting richer. What this is really saying is people who own assets like real estate are getting wealthier and people with no assets are finding less and less opportunity.  I imagine any group whether it be blacks, hispanic, whatever that had a disproportionately lower share of assets is getting disproportionatley poorer.  Yes, buy real estate and cash-flowing assets, but next time you are complaining about a kid having their stupid transgender studies loan paid off be considerate of the fact this kid does not have the opportunities of the generations before him.  And as mighty and righteous as you are maybe don't lecture these millennials quite as much about how hard you had it and all the jobs you had when you were 12 years old, they didn't invent helicopter parenting they are the victims of it. 

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Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
4y

I believe that this data is about 8 years out of date. Millennial wealth has been skyrocketing, especially in the last few years. And, I believe Millennials are in great position to benefit from the economic realities that are ahead of us (in a relative sense). 

Millennials are benefitting disproportionately from the great resignation. Millenial's net worth has doubled since the start of the pandemic.

Lower asset values mean that higher millennial paychecks buy a greater share of GDP per capita. 

Fed policy of easy money ballooned asset values for the older generations over the past 10 years. That's coming to an end and was the real insidious evil that kept millennials down and ballooned inequality. Jerome Powell will inflict pain on everyone, but millennials will be hurt the least as they are entering their prime earnings years, finally getting out of debt, and will be able to buy assets in a period of higher interest rates and lower real asset values - an economy that is more "sane" than the one we just experienced for the last 5-7 years.

 Older generations, particularly boomers, are exiting their prime earnings years. They must spend that wealth at some point. And the providers of those goods and services will be millennials. 

None of this really addresses your point, which seems to be to sympathize with student loan forgiveness. I think that's a tricky issue. I think it's great for the folks who receive the forgiveness, and a bit unfair to taxpayers who repaid similar loans or who did not receive a college education. I don't think people will ever agree on this one. 

One thing that I do think will be a benefit from the student loan debate, is that it seems that both sides can clearly agree that student loans are inflicting terrible damage on millions of individuals and society at large. 

We need to stop giving them out. And significantly reform them. If we care about this problem enough to spend $300B to forgive debts for current borrowers, surely we care enough about the next generation to prevent them from taking on unreasonable student loan debt the next time around?

My vote:

1) End all federal student loan programs, privatizing the student loan market 

2) Establish usury protections for borrowers (can't allow a 17/18 year old to get completely swindled as a "welcome to adulthood...") 

3) Allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy. Eliminate that exemption. 

Within a few years, or perhaps overnight, the 80/20 of the absurdities in higher education would be eliminated. Tuition would plummet, worthless degrees would cease to exist (because no sane lender is giving an 18 year old $100K to study "fashion design" if that student can declare bankruptcy), colleges would eliminate the focus on "experience" classes would be harder, tens or hundreds of thousands of administrative positions at colleges would be eliminated, and ROI would be carefully considered by students, parents, lenders, and colleges.

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  • Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 769 votes
    4y

     And also, I think it’s wrong to be telling people of color that they’re not gonna be successful without going to college due to the color of their skin. 

    I don't tell them that but the statistics are certainly at the forefront of my mind when I consider the importance of what I need to with these young people. 

    I'm not putting them down for the color of their skin, although I am saying something about the state of things in Mississippi where they live. They only got rid of the Confederate Stars and Bars in their state flag after the George Floyd protests. During the recent floods in Jackson, the Governor gave a press conference where he didn't bother to invite the black mayor or Bennie Thompson. The State Legislature made Jackson ineligible for Build Back Better monies because they demanded matching funds from a city that had none ensuring the monies went to white suburbs instead. A black person who commits even a misdemeanor can lose their right to vote permanently. 


  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
     And the argument that Stalin was done expanding communism is inaccurate and the true purpose is setting up to apologize for one of the two greatest mass murders in history.  If Stalin didn't want to expand Communism then America was the aggressor correct?  




    Uh, no. No one ever asked the Eastern Europeans whether they wanted to be buffer states to the Soviet Union. And why would I consider America the 'aggressor' since we never invaded Russia (well, we did in 1917 but that was short-lived.) Sorry, but the fact that Stalin was an homicidal maniac doesn't mean he was out to conquer the world. Not does my stating this make me an apologist for Stalin or communism. 

    And by the way "Woke" is a term I've only heard on the lips of the alt-right. Progressives don't use it. Also, I don't know of any majors in Transgender Studies which again, the alt-right seems to want to want to focus on. At most there are some courses and concentrations in that field, but no majors.

    You really come across extremely militant and humorless.  The Transgender Studies thing is obviously a joke it is absurdity but it is becoming less fringe as I am sure you are aware.  You argue the same points that an Anti-anti communist would.  People like me (as I am sure you know) say that is the argument of not a perpetuator but an enabler.  Sorry I have to go, I have Alt Right meeting I have to get to!  LOL

  • Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 769 votes
    4y

    Unfortunately it is a meme which comes up again and again with people who have no problem with young people having to rack up a ton of debt it order to get an education. If the last few years have taught us nothing else it is that if you repeat a lie often enough people come to believe it. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

     Indeed 

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Derek Gleue:

    My issue with this student loan forgiveness is that it is only going to make the problem of offer priced schooling worse.

    It is as the government has increased it's involvement in student loans that the price of college tuition has risen. The colleges know they can get more money, because students pay just as much as they always have, while the college takes advantage of the added government money.

    Now that student loans will be forgiven, tuition will just continue to rise even faster.

    We have an over credentialing problem right now. We teach kids the only way to be successful is to get a degree. I can't make a single person who has ever said "yeah, my schooling was really useful for my career" beyond medical professionals. On the job training is far more useful for most industries. And yet most places are requiring a degree because just because reasons.

    My other issue is the fact that I worked my way through college and took 5.5 years to finish my degree so I could work through school and graduate debt free. I feel like a real sucker when 4 years later, I could have just had it all for free. Forgiving student loans is going to increase inflation, and increase the tax burden. So now I get to pay for someone else's college on top of already paying my own.


     Dudes like you get screwed no doubt.  I would say that this payoff your peers loans thing is the least of the ways you are being screwed though.  

    Important to remember though you can't control all the nonsense but you can control your life and you can will yourself to success, with a little luck.  Whats the old saying "the harder I work the luckier I get.'''  How about, "The more positive you get your head the better the things are that will happen in your life."

    Good luck to you,

  • Member since 2018 · 15 posts · 5 votes
    4y

    I cant agree enough with the OP. The salary rate here hasnt really kept up with the increase in housing costs. Its def harder for us millennials to get in. On top of that the land scarcity too depending on the area you are from. They just dont seem to build as much SFH like before in the 80's or 90's.

    Yes a dollar back then was worth a lot but that same dollar you worked hard for was enough to get you a home at a reasonable price. Now its 10x that amount. But has our salary 10x over the past 10-20 years? I doubt that.

  • Investor · Fort Walton Beach. FL · Member since 2020 · 87 posts · 42 votes
    4y

    @Eric Bilderback

    Who made them go to college and get into thousands of dollars in debt? It’s not the only path and it is not required. They need real education (financial) not getting mistakes they made paid off. You don’t get your money back from a bad deal if you make a mistake…neither should anyone else. This is how people learn.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:

    @Susan Maneck

    Is that Chopsky's take?  I agree we should not debate this on the platform but I think they were more ambitious the killing just the over 20 million or so people in Russia and Eastern Europe.  I will leave it at that but many historians, etc vehemently disagree with that.


     I am a historian. 


     That thing about Soviet expansion ; If I remember correctly it comes from Karl Marx himself who said for communism to survive, it has to spread. Kinda like religion.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

    So what do you do? Make the age of consent 21? Or 25? 

    These kids are legally adults and they expect/demand all of the other privileges that come with adulthood. So if they can legally get a loan, why shouldn't they legally be required to pay it back? At some point we have to say that some, actually lots of these kids/adults are just not very smart at analyzing risk/reward. 

    Totally agree and that's exactly why our personal choice for our family is not to have 'unnecessary' loans for college.

    Another consideration I found interesting in US is it's pretty much easy to find $125K-$140k jobs, it's so easy that the employer doesn't really check your school background. It's so easy to get jobs here. Even if you have career that's moving very fast, I notice it's never about school but more about how business-savvy you are , way of thinking and especially communication.

    One can spend $1 or $100k to gain the same $125k job. If I can spend zero why pay more hahaha they read all the same book anyway

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    @Carlos Ptriawan So true. A lot of the younger folks I've known that make the most $$ are - guess what? Yep.....plumber. electrician, utility lineman....

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:

    Ya think?

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:

     And also, I think it’s wrong to be telling people of color that they’re not gonna be successful without going to college due to the color of their skin. 

    I don't tell them that but the statistics are certainly at the forefront of my mind when I consider the importance of what I need to with these young people. 

    I don't want to use skin color, but in other countries that are more rational, poor people always get education subsidies from the government.

    I don't know why there's no almost-free tuition in America for the poor, instead of having the same loan for everyone.  Or maybe I don't know.

    I found it's so weird that the household that is making 500k and the kid can get 90% scholarship because he can play hockey LOL 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

     Haha, yeah......it's because the kid cam make the school money from the NCAA.

  • Rental Property Investor · Lehigh Valley, PA · Member since 2017 · 200 posts · 191 votes
    4y

    If only "wah" could be digitized into a crypto currency then we could all be equal

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y

    I am a bit confused @Eric Bilderback, or actually a lot confused.......

    The statement/argument I hear is each successive generation is falling more and more into servitude of debt. Many words being used in this but that seems to be the underlying foundation statement "servitude of debt", right? 

    And next, how it's a failure. That confuses me, greatly. It's anything BUT a failure, it's a crowning achievement! It is, very literally, the victory of a conquest spanning decades upon decades. The saddest and funniest part, it's public, right out in the open, not hidden 1-bit just like every great conqueror before they have been broadcasting the intent and the masses simply ignore it all. 

    Davos 2022, not only did they say it, not only was it cheered, it was the freakin center piece of the entire thing! The filmed a commercial to it! My God what more do people need, seriously, do they gotta put it on your Happy Meals to get anyone to acknowledge it? 

    It is not by any mistake that the U.S. education system does not have any kind of elaboration of financial or entrepreneurial knowledge. it is NOT an oversight. Welcome to reality, the masses are trained and groomed to be good, docile employees and consumers. That is the reality of things. 

    And before anyone want's to cry "conspiracy" let me stop you right here and stop that whole pity party for what it is, a giant excuse! It is not a conspiracy, it's called SMART. And "common sense". What else do you expect the top 2% to do? Job #1 for the elite wealthy is to STAY ELITE AND WEALTY, is that a conspiracy or common sense? What would you do if you were born into billions? Yes, you'd love it, and not want to lose it, right. 

    And again, fact of reality is, most people on this big blue marble don't want to do more, they want to have more but they don't want to do the "more", the "more" that is the difference between a nurse and a brain surgeon, the "more" that separates an attorney who is public defender vs the rock-star litigator, the "more" that separates ALL. My data, it's called LIFE. Most want more but few will pay the requirement to become the "more". 

    Our society is ran by the elite, we all know this. We never speak it, it's the unsaid truth but we all know it, it's obvious common sense, and the construct makes sense. Yet, we have 0 shortage of the whining as to why doesn't the elite focus on empowering everyone to be millionaires. Because, for every millionaire there must be millions of CONSUMERS. Happy, plebians. That is reality. 

    Some politicians made ludicrous statements to pander for votes and now countless sheeple have eaten it up with shovels and are demanding why the entire universe can't bend over backwards to praise there every breath. It is an extension and continuation of the PC Generation where nobody looses, ever, and all are "equal". 

    One thing and ONLY 1 thing in existence is "equal"; DEATH!

    Short of death, there is 0 equality in existence. 

    Any argument of changing such, to make all wealthy, lol, well you might as well start with working on the sun providing "equal opportunity" of summer and winter upon the earth first as that is the easier place to start. 

    The student loan payout is just yet another bribe for votes, we all know this. If there was actually any focus of equality in it, it would be across the board right, what does income have to do with it, if it is to assist those who put effort forth to education. It's income based, punishing those who put the work to better effective use and rewarding those who did not. Not sure how that defines equal. And if it were to correct any issue in education system, well something, ANYTHING, would be done to actually effect change and improvement in education system. no, it's a shower of $, for the exact demographic one is seeking votes from. 

    Poverty is a choice. Success is a result. ACTION, what a person DOES, how ever much or little, is the catalyst for which reality one will create & experience. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @James Hamling

    I think we are in agreement for the most part here, although you sound more determinist.  I believe that all people are capable of great things,


    Deep bondage in a nation produces great faith.

    Great faith produces great courage.
    Great courage
    produces great freedom.
    Great freedom
    produces great abundance.
    Great abundance
    produces great apathy.
    Great apathy
    produces great dependence.
    Great dependence produces great bondage.

    Deep stuff!  LOL  Have a great day,

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    @Susan Maneck while I hear your story I am not coming from that place. I am first generation college, what I did not go into in my post is that three of seven of my sibs paid for our own college, our own textbooks, really working weekends and summers all through high school and college. The rest followed other paths, all to productive adulthood. Much fewer kids today work even a little. I left college with about what would be in today's dollars average student debt. I got a degree in nursing. Yeah my GPA suffered from working, and I was studying with little kids running around because I was living home and driving 45 minutes to classes but I graduated passed my licensing exam worked and got two more degrees. Universities want them on campus for 4 years paying, doing sports and social programs, its a bill of goods. 

     I disagree with you, You should not be able to get a degree that costs more then you will earn in a couple years.  So if you want to go to BU or your historically black college and live in the dorm for 4 years you should not be able to get a loan for that unless your degree will pay for it.  BU or your college should be giving out scholarships if they want to. And the government should cap loans, that will weed out colleges.  Junk degrees are out there, I don't think STEM degrees are the only ones that matter but we should not be encouraging kids to get educated just to get educated with some vague liberal arts credential and honestly some of the kids college is a disservice to them. They would be better off with something that aligns with strengths that will one day earn them a living, and that is not always college. I was taught to believe that I could not afford not to support myself.   People get dealt way harder decks and I am by no means whining but I am tired of hearing oh, you don't understand how hard some people have it. I think sometimes we make it worse for young people selling them college educations. There is financial aid for lower income people so why did we up these loans and now do something like blanket student loan forgiveness.   And yes I taught for a while at a public university and some kids it was tougher then others but when the kids in my field walked out the door with some way to support themselves.  And colleges do a lousy job of getting graduates into the workforce too. You got your degree go on now so we can collect someone else's tuition.  I would say we need less college education. Pour that into k-5 when it will make a difference. 

     As for other countries making college available to those who qualify we have to decide if we want to qualify kids for college or a trade with no option to turn around at about 8th grade. I am not for that because I have taught some very talented adult learners. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kristopher Kelly:

    @Eric Bilderback

    Who made them go to college and get into thousands of dollars in debt? It’s not the only path and it is not required. They need real education (financial) not getting mistakes they made paid off. You don’t get your money back from a bad deal if you make a mistake…neither should anyone else. This is how people learn.

    Nobody made them go.  I was making a nuanced point here.  
    College debt can be both irresponsibly encouraged to young impressionable folks and It can not be my fault so I shouldn’t have to pay at the same time.  
  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:

    @Susan Maneck

    Is that Chopsky's take?  I agree we should not debate this on the platform but I think they were more ambitious the killing just the over 20 million or so people in Russia and Eastern Europe.  I will leave it at that but many historians, etc vehemently disagree with that.


     I am a historian. 


     That thing about Soviet expansion ; If I remember correctly it comes from Karl Marx himself who said for communism to survive, it has to spread. Kinda like religion.

    Communism is the anti religion.  It killed way more people then any religion could ever dream of killing.  If there is no Universal right or wrong aka god then everything is permissible and you will never be judged.  


  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:

    @Susan Maneck

    Is that Chopsky's take?  I agree we should not debate this on the platform but I think they were more ambitious the killing just the over 20 million or so people in Russia and Eastern Europe.  I will leave it at that but many historians, etc vehemently disagree with that.


     I am a historian. 


     That thing about Soviet expansion ; If I remember correctly it comes from Karl Marx himself who said for communism to survive, it has to spread. Kinda like religion.

    Communism is the anti religion.  It killed way more people then any religion could ever dream of killing.  If there is no Universal right or wrong aka god then everything is permissible and you will never be judged.  



     Of course. One interesting thing that I noticed from your discussion with Susan was......during 1945-1990 cold war era it seems US is doing a lot of thing in the right direction and "models for the free world", but after the Soviet falls; especially after the liberalization era of early 2000, it seems Wall St is taking over everything.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
    Quote from @Eric Bilderback:

    @Susan Maneck

    Is that Chopsky's take?  I agree we should not debate this on the platform but I think they were more ambitious the killing just the over 20 million or so people in Russia and Eastern Europe.  I will leave it at that but many historians, etc vehemently disagree with that.


     I am a historian. 


     That thing about Soviet expansion ; If I remember correctly it comes from Karl Marx himself who said for communism to survive, it has to spread. Kinda like religion.

    Communism is the anti religion.  It killed way more people then any religion could ever dream of killing.  If there is no Universal right or wrong aka god then everything is permissible and you will never be judged.  



     Of course. One interesting thing that I noticed from your discussion with Susan was......during 1945-1990 cold war era it seems US is doing a lot of thing in the right direction and "models for the free world", but after the Soviet falls; especially after the liberalization era of early 2000, it seems Wall St is taking over everything.

     100% BlackRock, that loser Ray Dalio these guys are willing to get into bed with China make money off of the Uygers push products and policies they no harm people.  The only consideration they have is money.  America will have a reckoning for letting these people control our pension funds, outsource our production, and steal our wealth we should have been passing down.  There is no doubt in my mind that this will not be allowed to continue.  

  • Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 769 votes
    4y
    Karl Marx also said that it would need to begin in fully industrialized nations. Not what happened. If Lenin and Mao had been listened to Karl Marx they never would have started communist revolutions in feudal and agrarian countries. Also, Karl Marx did not believe there would be a communist revolution in America because land was so plentiful the working classes always had another option besides working in factories. 
  • Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 769 votes
    4y

     Of course. One interesting thing that I noticed from your discussion with Susan was......during 1945-1990 cold war era it seems US is doing a lot of thing in the right direction and "models for the free world", but after the Soviet falls; especially after the liberalization era of early 2000, it seems Wall St is taking over everything.

    Somewhat. We followed the development theory. The US perceived rightly that contrary to what Karl Marx believed would happen, that it was poor, agrarian countries that were attracted to communism, not ones with industrial economies. Therefore, if we helped the "Third World" develop they would not fall prey to communism. Of course we did few bad things too like have the CIA intervene in Iran and Chile. One thing that should be recognized, though, is that the reason Industrialized nations did survive without communist revolutions is because eventually governments bridled capitalism, allowing unions to form, enfranchising the working class, cutting back on abuses, enacting Social Security (Bismarck did that first.) In other words the became mixed economies. Indeed, the communist countries which have survived like China and Vietnam essentially did the same. 
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
    Karl Marx also said that it would need to begin in fully industrialized nations. Not what happened. If Lenin and Mao had been listened to Karl Marx they never would have started communist revolutions in feudal and agrarian countries. Also, Karl Marx did not believe there would be a communist revolution in America because land was so plentiful the working classes always had another option besides working in factories. 

     Yeah, so it seems Karl Marx itself is not a great history predictor. He thought the revolution would start with the advanced economy.

    What really happened, in reality, is that, Bolshevikism happened as a rebellion against aristocracy ruling. While in China's case (and other Asian nations too), the communism is one of two alternatives direct anti-thesis of colonialism. The other alternative is nationalism. The nationalists and communists used to cooperate when their country is under foreign power but fought each other after they kicked out the colonialist.  Hence what happened in Asia is typically a civil war between communism and nationalism. 

    This war between communism and nationalism is impacting everyone for 3 to 4 generations and actually, it's one of the reasons why my (and many others) ancestors keep acquiring land and real estate, as the communist will seize every land if they're in power. 

    Biggerpocket is nothing new and perhaps it's the reason why the land in America is so affordable before.

    What's sad about the developed world is that post-communist era, it seems the trajectory in the western world is gone wild where wall st takes too much influence.
    Kids nowadays don't experience the actual fighting with the commies, facing double-digit inflation, currency devaluation \...they think there's always "loan" for that, low-interest rate forever, a wall st banker to bail out them,etc,etc..

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:

     Of course. One interesting thing that I noticed from your discussion with Susan was......during 1945-1990 cold war era it seems US is doing a lot of thing in the right direction and "models for the free world", but after the Soviet falls; especially after the liberalization era of early 2000, it seems Wall St is taking over everything.

    Somewhat. We followed the development theory. The US perceived rightly that contrary to what Karl Marx believed would happen, that it was poor, agrarian countries that were attracted to communism, not ones with industrial economies. Therefore, if we helped the "Third World" develop they would not fall prey to communism. Of course we did few bad things too like have the CIA intervene in Iran and Chile. One thing that should be recognized, though, is that the reason Industrialized nations did survive without communist revolutions is because eventually governments bridled capitalism, allowing unions to form, enfranchising the working class, cutting back on abuses, enacting Social Security (Bismarck did that first.) In other words the became mixed economies. Indeed, the communist countries which have survived like China and Vietnam essentially did the same. 

     Yea, the west was able to survive because it mixed capitalism with some concept that was borrowed from the socialism model even until today,starting from the 1950s. While the Communists (China) today able to survive by introducing limited-controlled capitalism and able to produce goods and service to the world.

    But at the end of the day what's funny between west experience and China's experience, both capitalism/survives still maintains by the same the elite ruling class. While US is indirectly ruled  by Wall St , China still maintain its elite Party Commusariat as the one that decides the fate of the market.

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