Millennial's growing poorer

Millennial's growing poorer

Real Estate Agent 路 Sisters, OR 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes

Listening to people beat up on the young folks for having their student loans paid off. Look at this people born between 81 and 96 are getting poorer while the rest of us are getting richer. What this is really saying is people who own assets like real estate are getting wealthier and people with no assets are finding less and less opportunity.  I imagine any group whether it be blacks, hispanic, whatever that had a disproportionately lower share of assets is getting disproportionatley poorer.  Yes, buy real estate and cash-flowing assets, but next time you are complaining about a kid having their stupid transgender studies loan paid off be considerate of the fact this kid does not have the opportunities of the generations before him.  And as mighty and righteous as you are maybe don't lecture these millennials quite as much about how hard you had it and all the jobs you had when you were 12 years old, they didn't invent helicopter parenting they are the victims of it. 

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Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor 路 Denver, CO 路 Member since 2014 路 2k+ posts 路 6k+ votes
4y

I believe that this data is about 8 years out of date. Millennial wealth has been skyrocketing, especially in the last few years. And, I believe Millennials are in great position to benefit from the economic realities that are ahead of us (in a relative sense). 

Millennials are benefitting disproportionately from the great resignation. Millenial's net worth has doubled since the start of the pandemic.

Lower asset values mean that higher millennial paychecks buy a greater share of GDP per capita. 

Fed policy of easy money ballooned asset values for the older generations over the past 10 years. That's coming to an end and was the real insidious evil that kept millennials down and ballooned inequality. Jerome Powell will inflict pain on everyone, but millennials will be hurt the least as they are entering their prime earnings years, finally getting out of debt, and will be able to buy assets in a period of higher interest rates and lower real asset values - an economy that is more "sane" than the one we just experienced for the last 5-7 years.

 Older generations, particularly boomers, are exiting their prime earnings years. They must spend that wealth at some point. And the providers of those goods and services will be millennials. 

None of this really addresses your point, which seems to be to sympathize with student loan forgiveness. I think that's a tricky issue. I think it's great for the folks who receive the forgiveness, and a bit unfair to taxpayers who repaid similar loans or who did not receive a college education. I don't think people will ever agree on this one. 

One thing that I do think will be a benefit from the student loan debate, is that it seems that both sides can clearly agree that student loans are inflicting terrible damage on millions of individuals and society at large. 

We need to stop giving them out. And significantly reform them. If we care about this problem enough to spend $300B to forgive debts for current borrowers, surely we care enough about the next generation to prevent them from taking on unreasonable student loan debt the next time around?

My vote:

1) End all federal student loan programs, privatizing the student loan market 

2) Establish usury protections for borrowers (can't allow a 17/18 year old to get completely swindled as a "welcome to adulthood...") 

3) Allow student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy. Eliminate that exemption. 

Within a few years, or perhaps overnight, the 80/20 of the absurdities in higher education would be eliminated. Tuition would plummet, worthless degrees would cease to exist (because no sane lender is giving an 18 year old $100K to study "fashion design" if that student can declare bankruptcy), colleges would eliminate the focus on "experience" classes would be harder, tens or hundreds of thousands of administrative positions at colleges would be eliminated, and ROI would be carefully considered by students, parents, lenders, and colleges.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor 路 Jackson, MS 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 769 votes
    4y

     The nationalists and communists used to cooperate when their country is under foreign power but fought each other after they kicked out the colonialist.  Hence what happened in Asia is typically a civil war between communism and nationalism. 

    While rabid nationalism appears to have raised its ugly head wherever communism has fallen, I would hasten to point out that both Stalin and Ho Chi Minh were ultimately nationalists. 

  • Dan DiFilippoBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker 路 Fayetteville, NC 路 Member since 2020 路 251 posts 路 244 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:

    I would hasten to point out that both Stalin and Ho Chi Minh were ultimately nationalists. 

    Stalin?  A nationalist?  Are you posting in bad faith?

    Brookdale Property Management
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant 路 San Diego / Phoenix 路 Member since 2021 路 12k+ posts 路 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Dan DiFilippo:
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:

    I would hasten to point out that both Stalin and Ho Chi Minh were ultimately nationalists. 

    Stalin?  A nationalist?   Are you posting in bad faith?

     Yer killin' me man..... 馃ぃ

    I was gonna say the same, but it was getting old.....

  • Investor 路 Jackson, MS 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 769 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Dan DiFilippo:
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:

    I would hasten to point out that both Stalin and Ho Chi Minh were ultimately nationalists. 

    Stalin?  A nationalist?   Are you posting in bad faith?

     I have a PhD in history and taught in higher education for thirty years. What's your credentials? 

    The split between Trotsky and Stalin only makes sense if you understand Stalin's nationalism. 

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire 路 Northeast, TN 路 Member since 2015 路 10k+ posts 路 16k+ votes
    4y

    Remember, no politics or insulting other members :) . We can debate if Stalin or HCM were nationalists (former no way, latter could be argued) but it's probably not pertinent to this thread anyway....

    Skyline Properties
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  • Investor 路 Dallas, TX 路 Member since 2016 路 887 posts 路 1k+ votes
    4y

    Not really sure the purpose of this post... are you trying to provoke a heated discussion? 

    Several flaws with your post... " people born between 81 and 96 are getting poorer while the rest of us are getting richer". There are plenty of older folks who are flat broke - much of my family (great people) fall in this category. Likewise, many millennials (particularly the older part of the generation) are filling a significant amount of senior manager, director, vice president, and c-level positions.  

    For the older folk that are doing good for themselves, well duh. Many of them have spent their whole lives building wealth. Of course they are going to be doing better than a dummy 28 year old who spent 200k on an art degree from New York University. They are at different stages in life. Where was that wealthy 70 year old 40 years ago? I'm sure many of them were broke and working minimum wadge jobs. 

    I don't understand the comment about race. Are you making the argument that white folks have significant advantages over non-white folks? If so, I'd like for you to explain in detail and with data, how white people have more advantages in real estate investing. Last time I checked all minorities are welcome to join the military, get the VA loan, use the GI bill for free education, etc.

    And lastly, if you want to pay for blue and pink hair kids to get gender studies degrees, be my guest, but don't try to force that on the rest of us. 

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire 路 Northeast, TN 路 Member since 2015 路 10k+ posts 路 16k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Martin LaBelle:

    There are a lot of angles to this, and I can see sound arguments and narratives flowing in good faith from both sides. Here is my two cents, its a small issue, but it is solvable, puts a dent in the problem, and makes good sense to me.

    The G.I. Bill should not have a time limit. A military service member should be able to use their educational entitlement at any point in their life. It's not a loan, it's a benefit they earned. Many veterans never use their educational bill because they have to grind and provide immediately after leaving the military. Many GI bill entitlements expire after 10-15 years, right when most service members with a family would be able to use it.

    The military is a great option for people needing to jump start their financial life, it's how I became an investor.

    The great wealth of the western world is guarded and made possible by humans who raise their hand and sign a blank check (which could mean their life). They should not receive a dated check in return.


     I'll add another wrinkle on that. When I was in the military, in the 80's, you literally had 10 minutes while you were in boot camp to decide whether or not you wanted the GI bill. They herded us into this room and a company commander stood up there and yelled and screamed at us "stupid maggots" on how we were fools if we signed up for this and weren't 100% sure we were going to college afterwards, and how could a bunch of dumb recruits like us think we were going to college anyway? Then they gave you this piece of paper with a "yes" or "no" place to check off, some disclaimer language, and a place to sign your name. Back then, the GI bill required you to pay in $100/month for 12 months, then if you went to college you got another $9k or so for $10k in total benefits. BUT: as you mentioned, you had a time limit to use the benefits (I think it was 10 years back then), and if you didn't use them you lost your $1200. 

    So here I am, an 18 year old kid in a boot camp barracks with a guy screaming at me, and my pay back then was less than $400 per month, and I was being asked if I wanted to give 25% of that back into a fund that I might lose? Well, of course I selected "No". 

    I still find this a source of constant amusement in that I ended up with almost 10 years of post-secondary education and a doctorate. The E-1 recruit who was never going to school 馃ぃ

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  • Investor 路 Jackson, MS 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 769 votes
    4y

    My father's generation didn't have to make that choice. If you served in the military you got the GI-Bill, no questions asked and no CO trying to intimidate you and trying to talk you out of it. I find it disgusting that they would do this. 

  • Investor 路 Jackson, MS 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 769 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Greg R.:

    Not really sure the purpose of this post... are you trying to provoke a heated discussion? 

    Several flaws with your post... " people born between 81 and 96 are getting poorer while the rest of us are getting richer". There are plenty of older folks who are flat broke - much of my family (great people) fall in this category. Likewise, many millennials (particularly the older part of the generation) are filling a significant amount of senior manager, director, vice president, and c-level positions.  

    For the older folk that are doing good for themselves, well duh. Many of them have spent their whole lives building wealth. Of course they are going to be doing better than a dummy 28 year old who spent 200k on an art degree from New York University. They are at different stages in life. Where was that wealthy 70 year old 40 years ago? I'm sure many of them were broke and working minimum wadge jobs. 

    I don't understand the comment about race. Are you making the argument that white folks have significant advantages over non-white folks? If so, I'd like for you to explain in detail and with data, how white people have more advantages in real estate investing. Last time I checked all minorities are welcome to join the military, get the VA loan, use the GI bill for free education, etc.

    And lastly, if you want to pay for blue and pink hair kids to get gender studies degrees, be my guest, but don't try to force that on the rest of us. 


     Oh boy, here come the art and gender studies degrees again. How many people do you know who got a degree in gender studies? I know one and he is gainfully employed in Academia, but in a history department not gender studies. 

  • Dan DiFilippoBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker 路 Fayetteville, NC 路 Member since 2020 路 251 posts 路 244 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:
    Quote from @Dan DiFilippo:
    Quote from @Susan Maneck:

    I would hasten to point out that both Stalin and Ho Chi Minh were ultimately nationalists. 

    Stalin?  A nationalist?   Are you posting in bad faith?

     I have a PhD in history and taught in higher education for thirty years. What's your credentials? 

    The split between Trotsky and Stalin only makes sense if you understand Stalin's nationalism. 

    As mentioned a bit farther up, history is upended at the idea that Stalin was a nationalist.  You can't know what nationalism is if you believe that.

    Regarding something like people being employed in academia.  Yeah.  For a lot of academia, that's the point of academia.  Not to teach anyone anything useful, but to employ the previously graduated class of people they pushed through it.  Because if they can keep employing them, they can do better to guarantee future attendance.  It's like the most genius pyramid scheme ever because people outside of the organization are the ones who pay for it.

    Brookdale Property Management
  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor 路 Grand Prairie, TX 路 Member since 2018 路 2k+ posts 路 2k+ votes
    4y

    I love how this thread goes back n forth between Stalin and nationalism, to blue and pink haired kids going to college taking out 200k loans to get worthless art history and gender study degrees. I feel for the kids getting worthless degrees and have all that debt they need to pay off and now working at Starbucks for the same pay as uneducated people. And I feel for the rest of us who have to pay off these loans for them causing more inflation. And more clueless youngsters heading to college to take out monster loans for worthless degrees thinking the tax payers will keep paying for college loans. Either way, these people with worthless degrees and a pile of student loan debt won鈥檛 ever be able to get ahead in life if they don鈥檛 look at their return on investment with their career earnings with their degree beforehand. And props to those making good money with good degrees and having the rest of us pay off 20k of your debt! The stars definitely aligned for you and you鈥檙e vote is now expected for this administration and a certain party. We鈥檒l see how this political move all plays out. Lol 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant 路 San Diego / Phoenix 路 Member since 2021 路 12k+ posts 路 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @John Morgan:

    Either way, these people with worthless degrees and a pile of student loan debt won鈥檛 ever be able to get ahead in life if they don鈥檛 look at their return on investment with their career earnings with their degree beforehand. 

    Exactly! These 'kids' must/should learn to look at college as the investment that it is, not just 4-5 years of fun and games and beer. It's a good exercise in business for the young 'uns. Although most people just go Corporate or Government where they don't have to ever make a true business decision.....


  • Investor 路 Dallas, TX 路 Member since 2016 路 887 posts 路 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @John Morgan:

    Either way, these people with worthless degrees and a pile of student loan debt won鈥檛 ever be able to get ahead in life if they don鈥檛 look at their return on investment with their career earnings with their degree beforehand. 

    Exactly! These 'kids' must/should learn to look at college as the investment that it is, not just 4-5 years of fun and games and beer. It's a good exercise in business for the young 'uns. Although most people just go Corporate or Government where they don't have to ever make a true business decision..... 

    Great points. Many kids see college as something that they have to do. I try to explain that it is an investment, a rather large investment. No good investor would put 100-200k into something that wouldn't yield a good return. Neither should these kids. The education system is failing them into thinking that they should strive for some prestigious school and get a degree in something they "like", or are interested in. I know several people who were tricked into this and got a degree in psychology, because it's so interesting. These people have no path toward a career in that field and wasted 4 years plus a ton of money. 
    Truth is, so many kids would be much better off if they went to a trade school and learned plumbing, pipe fitting, framing, electrical, etc. Plus, they'd have little to no debt. 
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant 路 San Diego / Phoenix 路 Member since 2021 路 12k+ posts 路 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Greg R.:
    These people have no path toward a career in that field and wasted 4 years plus a ton of money. 


    And that is something that rarely gets discussed. The years lost. And the average student today takes longer than 4 years.

    One of my favorite (and true) sayings is: 'Money is a renewable resource - time is not'

    The kid who goes into a career as an electrician making even $60k per year would be ahead by $240,000, not even counting the other costs of college.

  • Investor 路 Jackson, MS 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 769 votes
    4y

    Regarding something like people being employed in academia.  Yeah.  For a lot of academia, that's the point of academia.  Not to teach anyone anything useful, but to employ the previously graduated class of people they pushed through it.  Because if they can keep employing them, they can do better to guarantee future attendance.  It's like the most genius pyramid scheme ever because people outside of the organization are the ones who pay for it.

    You can't have read what Stalin said during WWII and think he was not a nationalist. 

    Your statement academia is absolutely ridiculous. Only a very few people get hired in academia. In American history it is one out of 200 applicants; the opposite of a pyramid scheme. If we didn't teach something useful, valuable or interesting, students would not take our courses. 


  • Rental Property Investor 路 Pensacola, FL 路 Member since 2017 路 37 posts 路 18 votes
    4y

    @Eric Bilderback

    I鈥檓 soon to be 26 and have 3 properties, started a family, and am active duty military. It鈥檚 all In the drive of the individual.

    Many of the young people I know who are not looking at buying real estate, are scared from the 2008 crash and think it鈥檚 going to happen again. Also, growing up very few people talk to you about making investments and how things can compound. Simple financial principles should be taught in high school but they aren鈥檛.

  • Member since 2019 路 7k+ posts 路 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @John Morgan:

    Either way, these people with worthless degrees and a pile of student loan debt won鈥檛 ever be able to get ahead in life if they don鈥檛 look at their return on investment with their career earnings with their degree beforehand. 

    Exactly! These 'kids' must/should learn to look at college as the investment that it is, not just 4-5 years of fun and games and beer. It's a good exercise in business for the young 'uns. Although most people just go Corporate or Government where they don't have to ever make a true business decision.....


    I guess in America (this is what makes American way of think and lifestyle is so different than Asia) there's this strong tenet of 'individualism' ; where individual choice must be respected. When a kid becomes an adult the kid think they can do anything, can become anything (including blue hair), and there's always a loan for that. It's kinda the American version of 'pursuit of happiness. Although that individual choice could make them the slave of wall street, they literally don't care....

    Asian tend to think education is investment. There's risk and reward.
    It's not even about STEM or not.
    It's actually "STEM or die"  LOL

  • Real Estate Agent 路 Sisters, OR 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Christopher Hall:

    @Eric Bilderback

    I鈥檓 soon to be 26 and have 3 properties, started a family, and am active duty military. It鈥檚 all In the drive of the individual.

    Many of the young people I know who are not looking at buying real estate, are scared from the 2008 crash and think it鈥檚 going to happen again. Also, growing up very few people talk to you about making investments and how things can compound. Simple financial principles should be taught in high school but they aren鈥檛.


     You sound like a total stud, plus I agree with everything you said.  I want more guys like you and less guys hanging out in their Moms basement.  LOL. 

  • Rental Property Investor 路 Sanford, NC 路 Member since 2017 路 39 posts 路 35 votes
    4y
    Quote from @JD Martin:
    Quote from @Martin LaBelle:

    There are a lot of angles to this, and I can see sound arguments and narratives flowing in good faith from both sides. Here is my two cents, its a small issue, but it is solvable, puts a dent in the problem, and makes good sense to me.

    The G.I. Bill should not have a time limit. A military service member should be able to use their educational entitlement at any point in their life. It's not a loan, it's a benefit they earned. Many veterans never use their educational bill because they have to grind and provide immediately after leaving the military. Many GI bill entitlements expire after 10-15 years, right when most service members with a family would be able to use it.

    The military is a great option for people needing to jump start their financial life, it's how I became an investor.

    The great wealth of the western world is guarded and made possible by humans who raise their hand and sign a blank check (which could mean their life). They should not receive a dated check in return.


     I'll add another wrinkle on that. When I was in the military, in the 80's, you literally had 10 minutes while you were in boot camp to decide whether or not you wanted the GI bill. They herded us into this room and a company commander stood up there and yelled and screamed at us "stupid maggots" on how we were fools if we signed up for this and weren't 100% sure we were going to college afterwards, and how could a bunch of dumb recruits like us think we were going to college anyway? Then they gave you this piece of paper with a "yes" or "no" place to check off, some disclaimer language, and a place to sign your name. Back then, the GI bill required you to pay in $100/month for 12 months, then if you went to college you got another $9k or so for $10k in total benefits. BUT: as you mentioned, you had a time limit to use the benefits (I think it was 10 years back then), and if you didn't use them you lost your $1200. 

    So here I am, an 18 year old kid in a boot camp barracks with a guy screaming at me, and my pay back then was less than $400 per month, and I was being asked if I wanted to give 25% of that back into a fund that I might lose? Well, of course I selected "No". 

    I still find this a source of constant amusement in that I ended up with almost 10 years of post-secondary education and a doctorate. The E-1 recruit who was never going to school 馃ぃ


     It's funny how things turn out. I don't expect to use my GI Bill, as I'm right up against the window. However as I look at my current situation (I'm doing well in Real Estate) I find myself more and more wanting to help younger soldiers to look past their service time and set themselves up. I feel that the military is poorly equipped to teach financial literacy or wealth development, and I feel a certain inner glow at the thought of helping to fill that gap.

  • Rental Property Investor 路 Sanford, NC 路 Member since 2017 路 39 posts 路 35 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Christopher Hall:

    @Eric Bilderback

    I鈥檓 soon to be 26 and have 3 properties, started a family, and am active duty military. It鈥檚 all In the drive of the individual.

    Many of the young people I know who are not looking at buying real estate, are scared from the 2008 crash and think it鈥檚 going to happen again. Also, growing up very few people talk to you about making investments and how things can compound. Simple financial principles should be taught in high school but they aren鈥檛.


     Hey Christopher, good for you! PM me sometime. I'd love to hear a bit about the thought process you went through timing your investments in your military career. I'm trying to help educate some of my local Active Duty crowd (I'm at Fort Bragg). I'm also spending some cash developing off-market deals so if you're interested in the Fort Bragg market, let me know. I'm not a dedicated wholesaler but we have made some assignments when our lead generation out-paces our acquisition.

  • Member since 2021 路 26 posts 路 3 votes
    3y

    Work harder than everyone make money and win 

  • Member since 2019 路 7k+ posts 路 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jesse Hopcus:

    Work harder than everyone make money and win 


    I think OP means is the general market trajectory. I bet this is the reason also where Gen Z living would be much different than their predecessor especially Baby Boomers. This is also why generational wealth is even more important. 

    Some of us is also part of sandwich generation LOL

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