Is the American Dream Dead?

Is the American Dream Dead?

Shafiq HiraniPro Member
Real Estate Consultant · Washington, DC · Member since 2026 · 16 posts · 10 votes

America is becoming a renter nation. Here's what the data says, and what it means for apartment owners.

I want to lay out a demand story that I think every apartment building owner should understand, because the numbers have moved past "interesting" into "structural." This is not a take or an opinion. It is what the data is showing.

The affordability wall:

- 77% of U.S. households cannot afford the median price of a new single-family home

- Three out of four homes on the market are out of reach for anyone earning the median income

- The average worker earns about $64,000/year, but affording the average home requires nearly $120,000

- Home values surged more than 45% between 2020 and 2025, roughly 11 years of normal appreciation compressed into five

- Mortgage rates sit near 6.5%, and more than half of all outstanding mortgages are locked below 4%

That last point is the one that keeps the cycle locked. Existing homeowners are not selling because they would be giving up a rate they will never see again. That keeps inventory off the market, which keeps prices elevated, which keeps would-be buyers renting. It feeds itself.

The result: nearly half of all U.S. renters are now cost-burdened (spending 30% or more of their income on housing). Three-quarters of Americans still believe homeownership is part of the American dream. But for a growing share of households, the math to get there simply does not work.

Why is this not a normal cycle:

This is the part that changes the conversation. If this were cyclical, you would expect it to self-correct in a year or two as rates ease and inventory loosens. But the underlying forces are structural:

- The country is short an estimated 4 to 5 million housing units

- New apartment construction has dropped to its lowest level since 2011 (down 73% from the 2022 peak)

- Single-family construction is constrained by the same high costs

- Wages have not kept pace with home prices over the past two decades

- The mortgage lock-in effect keeps existing inventory frozen

What this amounts to is a growing population of long-term renters who are not renting by choice but by math. Renting is no longer a temporary stop on the way to ownership for millions of Americans. It has become their housing solution for the foreseeable future.

What it means for apartment owners:

I want to be clear: this is not something to celebrate. The affordability crisis is real, and it is affecting families and communities. But as owners, understanding the forces shaping demand for your building is not optional.

The demand floor under apartment buildings is not temporary. It is structural. The tenants in your units are not leaving for homeownership anytime soon, not at current rates, not at current prices, and not with inventory this tight. Occupancy is measured in years, not months.

That changes the strategic question. It is no longer "will my tenants stay?" It is "is my building positioned to capture the value that comes with sustained demand?" Specifically: are rents at market, are operating expenses optimized, are utility costs being recovered, are vendor contracts current, and does the NOI reflect the building's actual performance?

Because when demand is structurally locked in, every dollar of income left on the table is a missed opportunity that compounds over time. The owners who recognize this and tighten their operations now are the ones best positioned when it comes time to refinance or sell.

Genuinely curious how this group reads it:

- Are you seeing longer tenant stays in your portfolio, and do you attribute that to the affordability wall?

- Has the homeownership crisis changed how you think about rent increases or renewal strategy?

- For those in markets where new construction was heavy, are you starting to see the supply pressure ease while demand holds firm?

9Reply
1,873 views

Most Popular Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2mo

No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.

See this reply in the discussion

116 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2mo

    No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

    1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

    2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

    3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

    So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

    I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

    Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

    In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.

    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.

      Shiloh is right, the dream can be alive... The path he describes is what used to be normal.
      And yes, I suspect that the numbers are  pretty much correct, and there is a larger gap between earning and housing costs. But that just means that the work is going to be harder and you have to be more creative about where that path leads.

      Whenever this conversation comes up about 'affordable housing', it always skips over the part about living exactly where you want to live. This has become a luxury. In today's 'Age of Entitlement' everyone wants to live at the beach/lake/downtown/where they work/etc.

      This is not how it works anymore, and really never was. Like Shiloh said, there are 15 million houses across the US that are vacant and could be bought and fixed up/rented. Are they all in prime areas? No, of course not....but like Shiloh said, buy something, anything...fix it up, add value, sell and keep climbing the ladder.

      It's not easy, but it is doable for anybody in this country. Here's an example from this forum happening right now.....this new investor bought a real serious fixer and is taking a beating, but living the dream... https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1279515-my-fi...
    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


       Pshaw - I've seen that pool, that's small time stuff! 🤣

      In all seriousness Shiloh has it right. Like Michael Franti said, everyone wants to live like a king but nobody wants to plow the fields. 

      Skyline Properties
      View Page
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.

      Shiloh is right, the dream can be alive... The path he describes is what used to be normal.
      And yes, I suspect that the numbers are  pretty much correct, and there is a larger gap between earning and housing costs. But that just means that the work is going to be harder and you have to be more creative about where that path leads.

      Whenever this conversation comes up about 'affordable housing', it always skips over the part about living exactly where you want to live. This has become a luxury. In today's 'Age of Entitlement' everyone wants to live at the beach/lake/downtown/where they work/etc.

      This is not how it works anymore, and really never was. Like Shiloh said, there are 15 million houses across the US that are vacant and could be bought and fixed up/rented. Are they all in prime areas? No, of course not....but like Shiloh said, buy something, anything...fix it up, add value, sell and keep climbing the ladder.

      It's not easy, but it is doable for anybody in this country. Here's an example from this forum happening right now.....this new investor bought a real serious fixer and is taking a beating, but living the dream... https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1279515-my-fi...

       If you're a 34 year old with a wife, and two young kids. Ask yourself do you want to get the best job available?

      If so where is that?

      It's not in those deserted housing places. Add the fact the Jones's got the job in one of those towns and are moving, and your marriage is on thin ice if you don't step up and produce similar or better outcome

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.


      I get your point however look at Median price points in cities all cities have the same basic job availability  IE  schools  government  health care legal along with many mid western towns that have manufacturing.  High priced markets these days have very little actual manufacturing other than tech from what I see.  So both things can be true.. Jobs and where do I want to live.

      I have a high school friend that became a surgeon and moved to the mid west.. he shows me a picture of his house at our high school reunion.  Its a friggin mansion for 500k were I was living in 900 sq ft 3 and 1 in palo alto that cost me double that. 
    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.

      Shiloh is right, the dream can be alive... The path he describes is what used to be normal.
      And yes, I suspect that the numbers are  pretty much correct, and there is a larger gap between earning and housing costs. But that just means that the work is going to be harder and you have to be more creative about where that path leads.

      Whenever this conversation comes up about 'affordable housing', it always skips over the part about living exactly where you want to live. This has become a luxury. In today's 'Age of Entitlement' everyone wants to live at the beach/lake/downtown/where they work/etc.

      This is not how it works anymore, and really never was. Like Shiloh said, there are 15 million houses across the US that are vacant and could be bought and fixed up/rented. Are they all in prime areas? No, of course not....but like Shiloh said, buy something, anything...fix it up, add value, sell and keep climbing the ladder.

      It's not easy, but it is doable for anybody in this country. Here's an example from this forum happening right now.....this new investor bought a real serious fixer and is taking a beating, but living the dream... https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1279515-my-fi...

       If you're a 34 year old with a wife, and two young kids. Ask yourself do you want to get the best job available?

      If so where is that?

      It's not in those deserted housing places. Add the fact the Jones's got the job in one of those towns and are moving, and your marriage is on thin ice if you don't step up and produce similar or better outcome

      This 34 yr old needs to think outside the box. Work overtime, work 2 jobs, start a business, create a job, wife works too, work from home, move to a city where wages outpace housing, build a small home, go live off-grid.......

      I. Don't. Care. Figure it out dude. This is your problem, not ours....

      There are so many more options today than we had....my first house was a fixer in a sketchy neighborhood, purchased with an 18.5% loan and a balloon payment for the down due in 3 years....

      As @Shiloh Lundahl said, stop whining and go do something.....

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.

      Shiloh is right, the dream can be alive... The path he describes is what used to be normal.
      And yes, I suspect that the numbers are  pretty much correct, and there is a larger gap between earning and housing costs. But that just means that the work is going to be harder and you have to be more creative about where that path leads.

      Whenever this conversation comes up about 'affordable housing', it always skips over the part about living exactly where you want to live. This has become a luxury. In today's 'Age of Entitlement' everyone wants to live at the beach/lake/downtown/where they work/etc.

      This is not how it works anymore, and really never was. Like Shiloh said, there are 15 million houses across the US that are vacant and could be bought and fixed up/rented. Are they all in prime areas? No, of course not....but like Shiloh said, buy something, anything...fix it up, add value, sell and keep climbing the ladder.

      It's not easy, but it is doable for anybody in this country. Here's an example from this forum happening right now.....this new investor bought a real serious fixer and is taking a beating, but living the dream... https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1279515-my-fi...

       If you're a 34 year old with a wife, and two young kids. Ask yourself do you want to get the best job available?

      If so where is that?

      It's not in those deserted housing places. Add the fact the Jones's got the job in one of those towns and are moving, and your marriage is on thin ice if you don't step up and produce similar or better outcome

      This 34 yr old needs to think outside the box. Work overtime, work 2 jobs, start a business, create a job, wife works too, work from home, move to a city where wages outpace housing, build a small home, go live off-grid.......

      I. Don't. Care. Figure it out dude. This is your problem, not ours....

      There are so many more options today than we had....my first house was a fixer in a sketchy neighborhood, purchased with an 18.5% loan and a balloon payment for the down due in 3 years....

      As @Shiloh Lundahl said, stop whining and go do something.....


      Outside the box? Those are things everyone's talked about already.

       None of those apply to today's world. Work 2 jobs? They can't even find one. Work overtime? Again their wages aren't sufficient enough to get a discernable output in these cities. Work from home? Rto mandates. Wife works? Already happening. Move to a city where wages outpace housing? Find one that has a job that offers any term to it? Go live off grid? Okay, come on. Create a job? With what funding, concurrent personal debt, and no mean?

      Again, all these points are just yelling at the clouds with zero understanding of reality. The barrier of entry has gotten very high, and the dollar has gotten destroyed and concentrated.

      Not caring and telling them to figure it out is apart of the reason the dream is gone. And that's my point. It's dead.

      Posts like these show me far removed are from others. Total lack of awareness.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.


      I get your point however look at Median price points in cities all cities have the same basic job availability  IE  schools  government  health care legal along with many mid western towns that have manufacturing.  High priced markets these days have very little actual manufacturing other than tech from what I see.  So both things can be true.. Jobs and where do I want to live.

      I have a high school friend that became a surgeon and moved to the mid west.. he shows me a picture of his house at our high school reunion.  Its a friggin mansion for 500k were I was living in 900 sq ft 3 and 1 in palo alto that cost me double that. 

       A surgeon in the midw. You're telling me the outlier and using that as what? Base case?

      Again, dollar has been destroyed plus jobs have been concentrated. This will destroy any notion of similarities. But no law saying things need to be similar, just equal.

      The dream is dead. Issue I have is telling folks to keep chasing it. 

      If you're not producing incredibly valuable enterprise to this country, better wish you're a nepo baby or learn how to geographically arbritrage. Success isn't only in America, you're welcome to find it elsewhere. But over, good luck.

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.


      I get your point however look at Median price points in cities all cities have the same basic job availability  IE  schools  government  health care legal along with many mid western towns that have manufacturing.  High priced markets these days have very little actual manufacturing other than tech from what I see.  So both things can be true.. Jobs and where do I want to live.

      I have a high school friend that became a surgeon and moved to the mid west.. he shows me a picture of his house at our high school reunion.  Its a friggin mansion for 500k were I was living in 900 sq ft 3 and 1 in palo alto that cost me double that. 

       A surgeon in the midw. You're telling me the outlier and using that as what? Base case?

      Again, dollar has been destroyed plus jobs have been concentrated. This will destroy any notion of similarities. But no law saying things need to be similar, just equal.

      The dream is dead. Issue I have is telling folks to keep chasing it. 

      If you're not producing incredibly valuable enterprise to this country, better wish you're a nepo baby or learn how to geographically arbritrage. Success isn't only in America, you're welcome to find it elsewhere. But over, good luck.


      this whole idea that real estate is out of reach has been going on for decades nothing has changed.. when I wanted to buy my first house in 77 I could not afford Cupertino average price 100k  I had to buy in Milpitas for 75k and Milpitas in those days sucked stunk from the dumps by the bay.. nothing has changed 
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.


      I get your point however look at Median price points in cities all cities have the same basic job availability  IE  schools  government  health care legal along with many mid western towns that have manufacturing.  High priced markets these days have very little actual manufacturing other than tech from what I see.  So both things can be true.. Jobs and where do I want to live.

      I have a high school friend that became a surgeon and moved to the mid west.. he shows me a picture of his house at our high school reunion.  Its a friggin mansion for 500k were I was living in 900 sq ft 3 and 1 in palo alto that cost me double that. 

       A surgeon in the midw. You're telling me the outlier and using that as what? Base case?

      Again, dollar has been destroyed plus jobs have been concentrated. This will destroy any notion of similarities. But no law saying things need to be similar, just equal.

      The dream is dead. Issue I have is telling folks to keep chasing it. 

      If you're not producing incredibly valuable enterprise to this country, better wish you're a nepo baby or learn how to geographically arbritrage. Success isn't only in America, you're welcome to find it elsewhere. But over, good luck.


      this whole idea that real estate is out of reach has been going on for decades nothing has changed.. when I wanted to buy my first house in 77 I could not afford Cupertino average price 100k  I had to buy in Milpitas for 75k and Milpitas in those days sucked stunk from the dumps by the bay.. nothing has changed 

       I agree with that. My point is now everything has become out of reach, so it's shining a light on real estate. Housing, and any (physical) asset, is always out of reach at time of purchase or in consideration. But the reality is everything has been stretched. It's been gradually then suddenly. 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.


      I get your point however look at Median price points in cities all cities have the same basic job availability  IE  schools  government  health care legal along with many mid western towns that have manufacturing.  High priced markets these days have very little actual manufacturing other than tech from what I see.  So both things can be true.. Jobs and where do I want to live.

      I have a high school friend that became a surgeon and moved to the mid west.. he shows me a picture of his house at our high school reunion.  Its a friggin mansion for 500k were I was living in 900 sq ft 3 and 1 in palo alto that cost me double that. 

       A surgeon in the midw. You're telling me the outlier and using that as what? Base case?

      Again, dollar has been destroyed plus jobs have been concentrated. This will destroy any notion of similarities. But no law saying things need to be similar, just equal.

      The dream is dead. Issue I have is telling folks to keep chasing it. 

      If you're not producing incredibly valuable enterprise to this country, better wish you're a nepo baby or learn how to geographically arbritrage. Success isn't only in America, you're welcome to find it elsewhere. But over, good luck.


      this whole idea that real estate is out of reach has been going on for decades nothing has changed.. when I wanted to buy my first house in 77 I could not afford Cupertino average price 100k  I had to buy in Milpitas for 75k and Milpitas in those days sucked stunk from the dumps by the bay.. nothing has changed 

       I agree with that. My point is now everything has become out of reach, so it's shining a light on real estate. Housing, and any (physical) asset, is always out of reach at time of purchase or in consideration. But the reality is everything has been stretched. It's been gradually then suddenly. 


      One last thought V.G. I think you also have the instant gratification in our society now.. back in the day when I was buying my first place we had to save money for a few years or even a decade until we could enter the market.. Now folks want to buy a house without the sacrifice of saving for it.   I find that easy financing on autos  boats and RV's also hamper folks trying to buy their first place.
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      No, the American dream is not dead. But people have to have realistic expectations. Here are the expectations they should have to still be able to have the American dream.

      1. Take full accountability, and responsibility for yourself and your circumstances. There's a saying that used to be popular which was "if it's to be, it's up to me." The saying, didn't say "if it's to be, a government program will make it be."

      2. Take full accountability of your emotions and stop blaming other people for hurting your feelings. It's hard to have the American dream when you jump from job to job because you don't feel like you're being treated good enough.

      3. Start from the bottom. Don't whine that you can't have and get everything that people who have been in the workforce have built up to over time. This includes living in a house that you want in an area that you want. Houses in areas that people like to live in are more expensive because there's a higher demand so sellers can demand a higher price. You may need to start out with a small house in a less desirable area and then build an equity and then trade up over time. This is the biggest issue that I have with people saying that they can't achieve the American dream. The American dream wasn't that as soon as I graduated college, I was able to buy whatever I wanted and live wherever I wanted. The American dream was if I work hard, I can build the life over time where I can have ownership of things.

      So if you want the American dream, be willing to start at the bottom. Build your skills and be smart about how you spend your money. I have tried to teach people close to me about how to buy houses in such a way where you don't have to have a big down payment yet you can create a lot of equity. But that means that they may need to buy a house that is less desirable to them at first. Because they don't like the idea of living in a home that they don't prefer, they would rather whine and complain that the American dream isn't possible.

      I could probably come up with 100 cities where they could buy a home and live in those cities for 3 to 5 years and build up enough money to then buy another home that is closer to what they would prefer to live in, and then they stay there for another 3 to 5 years until they have built up enough equity and skills in order to trade up into a home that they prefer.  

      Currently I live in a 4600 square-foot home in an ideal location, and I have a pool and landscaping the cost about $400,000. I didn't start out here. I started out in a two bedroom, one bathroom condo that cost $130,000 over 20 years ago. And then I traded up to a four bedroom home when we were a family of four. Then I moved into a four bedroom home in a nicer area after five years. Then I moved to an expensive area and rented a three bedroom home for a year. Then I purchased a two bedroom home with a guest house in the back. We were a family of seven living in a two bedroom home and we rented out the guest house to help pay for the home. Then, at age 39, I purchased the home that we live in now. I purchased it at a discount because I know how to buy properties as a real estate investor so I was able to purchase it for $638,000. We've put money into the yard and the pool and renovated one bathroom and the basement. The home is now valued at about $1.7 million. I didn't start out in this home and I didn't cry and whine about living in a two bedroom home as a family of seven. I was strategic in all of my moves where I was able to build equity in all of the homes that we purchased, and I was able to rent out space in different homes that we owned, and I was able to buy properties under market value which helped build equity quicker.

      In other words, the American dream is absolutely alive. You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work.


      Exactly its not an affordability issue its a WHERE DO I THINK I DESERVE to live issue.

      not everyone can live in NYC  or Miami beach or Malibu or Palo Alto or any of the other high priced markets.. I toil in the mid west funding flippers and BRRR investors everyday we are funding and selling fully rehab and ready to go homes for 160k to 250k.. If someone cant afford that then they are renters until they save some money. 


      It is an affordability issue. It's not where I deserve to live, it's where are the jobs?

      I can find a job in coastal oregon right now for minimum wage in 5 spots within a one horse town.  I can go north about 2 hours and see layoffs bigger than that's town population.

      Everything is becoming concentrated, too concentrated. I promise you if an industry came to North Darkota, and established a healthy foundation people would move there too.

      It is simply corporate driven. Almost everything in the market is, especially housing. Having an excess of 1 million units in random Ohio have zero bearing on the demand of where the employers are.


      I get your point however look at Median price points in cities all cities have the same basic job availability  IE  schools  government  health care legal along with many mid western towns that have manufacturing.  High priced markets these days have very little actual manufacturing other than tech from what I see.  So both things can be true.. Jobs and where do I want to live.

      I have a high school friend that became a surgeon and moved to the mid west.. he shows me a picture of his house at our high school reunion.  Its a friggin mansion for 500k were I was living in 900 sq ft 3 and 1 in palo alto that cost me double that. 

       A surgeon in the midw. You're telling me the outlier and using that as what? Base case?

      Again, dollar has been destroyed plus jobs have been concentrated. This will destroy any notion of similarities. But no law saying things need to be similar, just equal.

      The dream is dead. Issue I have is telling folks to keep chasing it. 

      If you're not producing incredibly valuable enterprise to this country, better wish you're a nepo baby or learn how to geographically arbritrage. Success isn't only in America, you're welcome to find it elsewhere. But over, good luck.


      this whole idea that real estate is out of reach has been going on for decades nothing has changed.. when I wanted to buy my first house in 77 I could not afford Cupertino average price 100k  I had to buy in Milpitas for 75k and Milpitas in those days sucked stunk from the dumps by the bay.. nothing has changed 

       I agree with that. My point is now everything has become out of reach, so it's shining a light on real estate. Housing, and any (physical) asset, is always out of reach at time of purchase or in consideration. But the reality is everything has been stretched. It's been gradually then suddenly. 


      One last thought V.G. I think you also have the instant gratification in our society now.. back in the day when I was buying my first place we had to save money for a few years or even a decade until we could enter the market.. Now folks want to buy a house without the sacrifice of saving for it.   I find that easy financing on autos  boats and RV's also hamper folks trying to buy their first place.

       Instant gratification is absolutely a culprit. But it's a symptom of technology. We had instant gratification too back in the day on things we could get. We didn't have the tech(reach) for all what we have now.

      Today's first time home buyers are 40. 30 years ago they were 28. That tells you a lot, too. This is just housing, take into account marriage, first kid, it's all gotten exponentially harder.

      Saying the dream is still there is misleading.

    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      2mo

      @V.G Jason how would you compare the work ethic of today to the work ethic 30 years ago?

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      @V.G Jason how would you compare the work ethic of today to the work ethic 30 years ago?


       I can answer that once I know the incentive.

      That's the change. People aren't going to work anymore or any harder without the right incentives.

      Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it that's definitely a product of Gen Z.

      I'd say easily the top 5-7% of talent today is far superior than previous generations. The 8-20% slightly better, the middle 60% on par or slightly worse, and bottom 20% far dumber.

  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2mo

    OP

    Agree with build your wealth and housing comments above.

    6.5% is a good rate to buy a house.

    Sub 4% houses locked in rates.  How many houses paid off or nearly paid off?  How many people will die?  How many people must move with their job?  How many baby boomers will move to retirement communities or assisted living?  I’m 65.   Within 10 years we will down size.  How many people moving from high priced markets with mortgages that can buy two houses in lower price markets with no mortgage.  

    Neighbor son graduated two years ago.  Hvac job around $45,000 starting. No college debt. Bought house with fix up in small town around 300 people.  25 minutes to 1.2mm metro city with lots of jobs.  

    USDA loan.  If you qualify.  0% down.  Low interest rate.  Within 25 miles of 1.2 mm metro area.  

    Join the military. Once you reach E5 you can live off base and buy housing. Or do civil service overseas. Use Base Housing Allowance $20,000 to $50,000. Tax free. Instead of renting, buy. By the time you retired if you do normal REI strategies at say 42 you will be a millionaire.

    Drop 20mm illegal immigrants on a market.  It reduces a specific segment of housing and drives rental and thus housing prices up.  Especially starter homes or lower priced.  Just Micro Macro economic results.

    Building lots in small town $25,000.  Utilities, roads, internet all ready in place.  No zoning.  Only state electric inspection.  20 minutes to 1.2 mm metro area with jobs.  

    While you’re young.  Live cheap.  Don’t buy the new car.  Lower your standard of living.  Save money..  Don’t go on expensive vacations.  Buy a house at 30.  Get married with dual income. 

    • Henry ClarkPro Member
      Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      OP

      Agree with build your wealth and housing comments above.

      6.5% is a good rate to buy a house.

      Sub 4% houses locked in rates.  How many houses paid off or nearly paid off?  How many people will die?  How many people must move with their job?  How many baby boomers will move to retirement communities or assisted living?  I’m 65.   Within 10 years we will down size.  How many people moving from high priced markets with mortgages that can buy two houses in lower price markets with no mortgage.  

      Neighbor son graduated two years ago.  Hvac job around $45,000 starting. No college debt. Bought house with fix up in small town around 300 people.  25 minutes to 1.2mm metro city with lots of jobs.  

      USDA loan.  If you qualify.  0% down.  Low interest rate.  Within 25 miles of 1.2 mm metro area.  

      Join the military. Once you reach E5 you can live off base and buy housing. Or do civil service overseas. Use Base Housing Allowance $20,000 to $50,000. Tax free. Instead of renting, buy. By the time you retired if you do normal REI strategies at say 42 you will be a millionaire.

      Drop 20mm illegal immigrants on a market.  It reduces a specific segment of housing and drives rental and thus housing prices up.  Especially starter homes or lower priced.  Just Micro Macro economic results.

      Building lots in small town $25,000.  Utilities, roads, internet all ready in place.  No zoning.  Only state electric inspection.  20 minutes to 1.2 mm metro area with jobs.  

      While you’re young.  Live cheap.  Don’t buy the new car.  Lower your standard of living.  Save money..  Don’t go on expensive vacations.  Buy a house at 30.  Get married with dual income. 

      @V.G Jason

      As far as some ways to make the Dream listed above.

      I’m also negative on the current outlook for beginners.  $39T debt, $140T unfunded commitments, 20mm illegal aliens, 2mm welfare immigrants, Fed Interest rate refinancing to higher rates, stock market at record level P/E ratios, wage versus hard asset growth disparity, Federal Reserve who are not elected or governmentally managed create Longterm inflation and are for Big Banks, governmental Overspending, allowed manufacturing to be forced overseas- bridge to the American dream lost, college dream and debt not achievable in their curriculum and repayable, 

      With that said and on July 5th now and the 250th anniversary.  The U.S. is the greatest nation on earth.  Not only our governmental laws and structure.   But physically.  We are almost surrounded by water access- including the Great Lake system.  We have more food capacity than we will ever need.  Energy sources and natural resources beyond imagine.  Capitalism- not the Federal Reserve.  The ability to take $300 and become a millionaire.  Without nepotism, Kabul’s, bribery, socialist oligarchy, religious oligarchy, caste systems, etc.  

      I believe the U.S. is in for a rough ride over the next 20 years, but it will be better here than anywhere else in the world. 

      But that Blue US passport and citizenship with all the negative thoughts is still the most sought after “Economic” tool in the world.  

      I haven’t visited tons of overseas locations, but South Korea, Italy, France, Croatia, Mexico, Canada, Malta, Greece, Belize.  If the U.S. offered immediate citizenship to these countries I’m sure 1/2 of those people would immediately move to the U.S.


      It’s beautiful in Belize today.  But at $2.50 U.S. per hour with higher gas, electric and water costs it’s hard to make money and then go to the U.S.  

      So yes the American Dream is harder at the moment but tons of people with $300 would gladly move here.  And I would rather be poor in the U.S. than any other country in the world. 

      It’s your money, you’re always right, even if you’re wrong.  

      Now do I want grilled lobster, lobster kebabs, coconut curry lobster, lobster etouffe, lobster fritters, lobster tacos?  If Forrest or Bubba was here they could tell me.  
       

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Henry Clark:
      Quote from @Henry Clark:

      OP

      Agree with build your wealth and housing comments above.

      6.5% is a good rate to buy a house.

      Sub 4% houses locked in rates.  How many houses paid off or nearly paid off?  How many people will die?  How many people must move with their job?  How many baby boomers will move to retirement communities or assisted living?  I’m 65.   Within 10 years we will down size.  How many people moving from high priced markets with mortgages that can buy two houses in lower price markets with no mortgage.  

      Neighbor son graduated two years ago.  Hvac job around $45,000 starting. No college debt. Bought house with fix up in small town around 300 people.  25 minutes to 1.2mm metro city with lots of jobs.  

      USDA loan.  If you qualify.  0% down.  Low interest rate.  Within 25 miles of 1.2 mm metro area.  

      Join the military. Once you reach E5 you can live off base and buy housing. Or do civil service overseas. Use Base Housing Allowance $20,000 to $50,000. Tax free. Instead of renting, buy. By the time you retired if you do normal REI strategies at say 42 you will be a millionaire.

      Drop 20mm illegal immigrants on a market.  It reduces a specific segment of housing and drives rental and thus housing prices up.  Especially starter homes or lower priced.  Just Micro Macro economic results.

      Building lots in small town $25,000.  Utilities, roads, internet all ready in place.  No zoning.  Only state electric inspection.  20 minutes to 1.2 mm metro area with jobs.  

      While you’re young.  Live cheap.  Don’t buy the new car.  Lower your standard of living.  Save money..  Don’t go on expensive vacations.  Buy a house at 30.  Get married with dual income. 

      @V.G Jason

      As far as some ways to make the Dream listed above.

      I’m also negative on the current outlook for beginners.  $39T debt, $140T unfunded commitments, 20mm illegal aliens, 2mm welfare immigrants, Fed Interest rate refinancing to higher rates, stock market at record level P/E ratios, wage versus hard asset growth disparity, Federal Reserve who are not elected or governmentally managed create Longterm inflation and are for Big Banks, governmental Overspending, allowed manufacturing to be forced overseas- bridge to the American dream lost, college dream and debt not achievable in their curriculum and repayable, 

      With that said and on July 5th now and the 250th anniversary.  The U.S. is the greatest nation on earth.  Not only our governmental laws and structure.   But physically.  We are almost surrounded by water access- including the Great Lake system.  We have more food capacity than we will ever need.  Energy sources and natural resources beyond imagine.  Capitalism- not the Federal Reserve.  The ability to take $300 and become a millionaire.  Without nepotism, Kabul’s, bribery, socialist oligarchy, religious oligarchy, caste systems, etc.  

      I believe the U.S. is in for a rough ride over the next 20 years, but it will be better here than anywhere else in the world. 

      But that Blue US passport and citizenship with all the negative thoughts is still the most sought after “Economic” tool in the world.  

      I haven’t visited tons of overseas locations, but South Korea, Italy, France, Croatia, Mexico, Canada, Malta, Greece, Belize.  If the U.S. offered immediate citizenship to these countries I’m sure 1/2 of those people would immediately move to the U.S.


      It’s beautiful in Belize today.  But at $2.50 U.S. per hour with higher gas, electric and water costs it’s hard to make money and then go to the U.S.  

      So yes the American Dream is harder at the moment but tons of people with $300 would gladly move here.  And I would rather be poor in the U.S. than any other country in the world. 

      It’s your money, you’re always right, even if you’re wrong.  

      Now do I want grilled lobster, lobster kebabs, coconut curry lobster, lobster etouffe, lobster fritters, lobster tacos?  If Forrest or Bubba was here they could tell me.  
       


       US is #1, I agree. But for all those reasons you stated, and I did, it's just significantly harder. 

      But make no mistake about it, it's #1. 

      Geographic arbritrage is meant as a tool to make your money elsewhere, live here type.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    2mo

    I came from the same background as many described above...mowing grass, bagging groceries, assembly line, working two jobs, fixer uppers, leveling up, etc.  That being said, the K-shaped economy is for real - asset owners are fine and non asset owners are angry.  High government spending and inflation is leading to populism, socialism, and unrest.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Mike Dymski:

      I came from the same background as many described above...mowing grass, bagging groceries, assembly line, working two jobs, fixer uppers, leveling up, etc.  That being said, the K-shaped economy is for real - asset owners are fine and non asset owners are angry.  High government spending and inflation is leading to populism, socialism, and unrest.

      As tech(and AI) integrate more it's  an I shaped economy...not K. At least not anymore.
  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    2mo

    I find housing expensive today.  Stats in my market show financed housing purchase is the most expensive since the 1980s.

    My issue was I was hearing the same affordability complaints prior to the rate increases that of 2022.  Stats showed financed housing in my market at that time was less expensive than the majority of the last 50 years.  

    For some reason the younger generation thought it was easy for the previous generations.   We did not pay for cable (there was no streaming services).   We took cheap vacations (camping trips often to free camp areas).  I was 39 years old the first time I had AC in a home.   I was 44 the first time I purchased a new car.

    I see few of the younger generation being willing to make significant sacrifices.  They and many politicians believe they should be able to live where they desire.

    I counter this with housing today really is expensive to rent and especially to purchase.   Their complaining, which was largely invalid prior to 2022, is no longer invalid.  The rate increases have significantly increased the cost of home acquisition.

    I believe as the lack of affordability of the 1980s passed, so will this extreme unaffordable housing period.  What I am clueless to is how it will happen but every option seems not very likely (large rate reduction, huge price decline, huge population decline, extreme socialism, etc) so it may take a while.

    Until something happens, it likely will take most young people to make significant sacrifices (multiple jobs, no vacations, no luxurious purchases (streaming, expensive mobile plans, eating out, costly entertainment (attend free concerts rather than go to fifa game or swift concert), etc) to purchase a home.    As indicated, mostly I am not seeing the young people willing to make these sacrifices.

    Good luck

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2mo

    It's dead because the school doesn't teach you properly about finances, capitalism incentives zero sum outcomes, properly family structure is misaligned with any real values and you're rewarded in society to appear better than you really are.

    • Theresa HarrisPro Member
      Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:

      It's dead because the school doesn't teach you properly about finances, capitalism incentives zero sum outcomes, properly family structure is misaligned with any real values and you're rewarded in society to appear better than you really are.


       Schools don't, but too many parents also don't teach it to their kids and probably because many of them have no idea.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    2mo

    Yes house prices have gone up, but so have salaries as well as expectations of what people need (many are wants).  There is also a growing number of people who don't want the responsibility of owning homes and would rather rent (which depending on their income when they retire, may cause a lot of problems).  You can't have everything and you aren't going to start with a home that your parents worked 25+ years to get. Choices have consequences-want a new car every 3-5 years, a vacation to a tropical destination, dinner/lunch out 3x a week, etc....then those are your choices and it will be really hard to get ahead and save the down payment for a home.

    Rates of 6.5% are pretty much the norm.  The low rates from 5-15 years ago were NOT normal (nor were the high rates in the late 1980s). You hear the same story in other countries.

    Shiloh summed it up beautifully. "You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work."

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Theresa Harris:

      Yes house prices have gone up, but so have salaries as well as expectations of what people need (many are wants).  There is also a growing number of people who don't want the responsibility of owning homes and would rather rent (which depending on their income when they retire, may cause a lot of problems).  You can't have everything and you aren't going to start with a home that your parents worked 25+ years to get. Choices have consequences-want a new car every 3-5 years, a vacation to a tropical destination, dinner/lunch out 3x a week, etc....then those are your choices and it will be really hard to get ahead and save the down payment for a home.

      Rates of 6.5% are pretty much the norm.  The low rates from 5-15 years ago were NOT normal (nor were the high rates in the late 1980s). You hear the same story in other countries.

      Shiloh summed it up beautifully. "You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work."

      When rates were 6.5% back in 90s, the ratio was about 3.75x for housing and median income. It's now 5.2x.  That's just housing. 

      College? 7% then now 15%
      Utilities? 5% now 7%
      Groceries are surprisingly equal.

      Wages grew 13% over 30Y. Housing 70%, cars 40%, Tuition 110%. And we're saying it's the same chase.

      I've already provided tons of info on how to navigate into the future. But anyone saying it's still alive & well, stop complaining is tone deaf.
    • Theresa HarrisPro Member
      Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Theresa Harris:

      Yes house prices have gone up, but so have salaries as well as expectations of what people need (many are wants).  There is also a growing number of people who don't want the responsibility of owning homes and would rather rent (which depending on their income when they retire, may cause a lot of problems).  You can't have everything and you aren't going to start with a home that your parents worked 25+ years to get. Choices have consequences-want a new car every 3-5 years, a vacation to a tropical destination, dinner/lunch out 3x a week, etc....then those are your choices and it will be really hard to get ahead and save the down payment for a home.

      Rates of 6.5% are pretty much the norm.  The low rates from 5-15 years ago were NOT normal (nor were the high rates in the late 1980s). You hear the same story in other countries.

      Shiloh summed it up beautifully. "You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work."

      When rates were 6.5% back in 90s, the ratio was about 3.75x for housing and median income. It's now 5.2x.  That's just housing. 

      College? 7% then now 15%
      Utilities? 5% now 7%
      Groceries are surprisingly equal.

      Wages grew 13% over 30Y. Housing 70%, cars 40%, Tuition 110%. And we're saying it's the same chase.

      I've already provided tons of info on how to navigate into the future. But anyone saying it's still alive & well, stop complaining is tone deaf.

       Mortgage rates in the late 1980s were double digit.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Theresa Harris:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Theresa Harris:

      Yes house prices have gone up, but so have salaries as well as expectations of what people need (many are wants).  There is also a growing number of people who don't want the responsibility of owning homes and would rather rent (which depending on their income when they retire, may cause a lot of problems).  You can't have everything and you aren't going to start with a home that your parents worked 25+ years to get. Choices have consequences-want a new car every 3-5 years, a vacation to a tropical destination, dinner/lunch out 3x a week, etc....then those are your choices and it will be really hard to get ahead and save the down payment for a home.

      Rates of 6.5% are pretty much the norm.  The low rates from 5-15 years ago were NOT normal (nor were the high rates in the late 1980s). You hear the same story in other countries.

      Shiloh summed it up beautifully. "You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work."

      When rates were 6.5% back in 90s, the ratio was about 3.75x for housing and median income. It's now 5.2x.  That's just housing. 

      College? 7% then now 15%
      Utilities? 5% now 7%
      Groceries are surprisingly equal.

      Wages grew 13% over 30Y. Housing 70%, cars 40%, Tuition 110%. And we're saying it's the same chase.

      I've already provided tons of info on how to navigate into the future. But anyone saying it's still alive & well, stop complaining is tone deaf.

       Mortgage rates in the late 1980s were double digit.


      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.
    • Glen OlsonPro Member
      Member since 2022 · 7 posts · 16 votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.
      This quote rather undermines your position.  A house purchased for $61,000 at 14% interest rate would have a monthly payment of $723.  A person making $20,000 per year would be making $1667 per month therefore the mortgage would have been 43% of their income in 1980.  A $420,000 home purchased at 6.5% interest would have a monthly payment of $2655.  A person making $80,000 per year would be making $6667 per month therefore the house today would only cost 40% of total monthly income.

      It would seem that home ownership is more accessible now based on your example.
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Glen Olson:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.
      This quote rather undermines your position.  A house purchased for $61,000 at 14% interest rate would have a monthly payment of $723.  A person making $20,000 per year would be making $1667 per month therefore the mortgage would have been 43% of their income in 1980.  A $420,000 home purchased at 6.5% interest would have a monthly payment of $2655.  A person making $80,000 per year would be making $6667 per month therefore the house today would only cost 40% of total monthly income.

      It would seem that home ownership is more accessible now based on your example.


      Are you guys this dense? Read this part again:

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages. Your (cherry picked) point is p&I is 35% versus 32% of income today. Therefore, more accessible. My point is the down payment is $84k vs $12k. $12k is 60% of gross annual salary back then, $84k is about 100% of the gross annual salary needed now.
      Plus, the rise of the absolute mortgage (as in opex too), and general ownership (capex) is costlier. Just like everything else is relative to wages. The fact I have to explain this out is embarrassing. Look at prices folks, affordability is tough as heck for the new generation.
    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Glen Olson:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.
      This quote rather undermines your position.  A house purchased for $61,000 at 14% interest rate would have a monthly payment of $723.  A person making $20,000 per year would be making $1667 per month therefore the mortgage would have been 43% of their income in 1980.  A $420,000 home purchased at 6.5% interest would have a monthly payment of $2655.  A person making $80,000 per year would be making $6667 per month therefore the house today would only cost 40% of total monthly income.

      It would seem that home ownership is more accessible now based on your example.


      Are you guys this dense? Read this part again:

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages. Your (cherry picked) point is p&I is 35% versus 32% of income today. Therefore, more accessible. My point is the down payment is $84k vs $12k. $12k is 60% of gross annual salary back then, $84k is about 100% of the gross annual salary needed now.
      Plus, the rise of the absolute mortgage (as in opex too), and general ownership (capex) is costlier. Just like everything else is relative to wages. The fact I have to explain this out is embarrassing. Look at prices folks, affordability is tough as heck for the new generation.

      Conventional OO is now up to 95% LTV. FHA for many years has been up to 96.5% LTV. I suspect when most of us purchased our first OO, conventional max LTV was 90%.

      Using your numbers again: 61k is $6.1k of $20k or 30.5% of income

      $408k is $20.4k or 25.5% of income

      Your numbers continuously show opposite the case you are trying to make when the numbers are analyzed.

      was the American dream dead in the 1980s?  I say no, but it was more challenging than today.   The numbers show this.

      Today’s young think there struggles are extreme, but they really have poor financial understanding.

      I am looking at my son's (23yo) path and I expect him to create his own wealth. He shares an apartment with 3 other people. He does handyman tasks and manages his handyman team (handful of contract employees) and at his rate would make over $100k if he worked it full time. His financial literacy is what distinguishes him from his peers. This is the 2nd handyman business he has built. He has a good understanding of a wide range of investment opportunities. He has enough money saved to put 10% on the average San Diego home (~$1m) but due to his sources of income may be challenged to get decent financing without going to a lower LTV. so he may need 20% down. I suspect he will have it before the age of 25.

      He is an example that the American dream is not dead.   Even though he has a degree from a top university (ucsb) he is going the entrepreneur route.  It better matches his personality.  This implies university degree is not necessary for the American dream even in one of the more costly home markets in the US.

      You can keep your pessimistic thoughts and think my thoughts are Pollyanna but I see young people without defeatist attitudes doing great (my son’s best friend is in vet school and does internships and works for my son as a handy person (UCSC graduate).   My son’s girlfriend teaches, book keeps, and handy person (UCSB graduate).  Her sister same roles (Oregon graduate).  These people are working multiple jobs and on their way to the American dream.   By the way son’s girlfriend and her twin sister come from broken home and were homeless.  When I met her, her dad was homeless and her mom was in jail.  Her dad died homeless. Her mom looks to be getting life in order and only recently no longer had to wear a monitor.  they both graduated from good universities.  If anyone could justify having victim mindset it would be them.  But if they had that mindset, they would not have achieved their impressive accomplishments.

      I feel sorry for those with victim mindsets as it is very limiting.   Would you rather see no opportunity or opportunity everywhere?   I see challenging opportunity.  Opportunity that may not be handed to you, but has to be worked to achieve.

      Good luck



       

       



    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Glen Olson:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.
      This quote rather undermines your position.  A house purchased for $61,000 at 14% interest rate would have a monthly payment of $723.  A person making $20,000 per year would be making $1667 per month therefore the mortgage would have been 43% of their income in 1980.  A $420,000 home purchased at 6.5% interest would have a monthly payment of $2655.  A person making $80,000 per year would be making $6667 per month therefore the house today would only cost 40% of total monthly income.

      It would seem that home ownership is more accessible now based on your example.


      Are you guys this dense? Read this part again:

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages. Your (cherry picked) point is p&I is 35% versus 32% of income today. Therefore, more accessible. My point is the down payment is $84k vs $12k. $12k is 60% of gross annual salary back then, $84k is about 100% of the gross annual salary needed now.
      Plus, the rise of the absolute mortgage (as in opex too), and general ownership (capex) is costlier. Just like everything else is relative to wages. The fact I have to explain this out is embarrassing. Look at prices folks, affordability is tough as heck for the new generation.

      Conventional OO is now up to 95% LTV. FHA for many years has been up to 96.5% LTV. I suspect when most of us purchased our first OO, conventional max LTV was 90%.

      Using your numbers again: 61k is $6.1k of $20k or 30.5% of income

      $408k is $20.4k or 25.5% of income

      Your numbers continuously show opposite the case you are trying to make when the numbers are analyzed.

      was the American dream dead in the 1980s?  I say no, but it was more challenging than today.   The numbers show this.

      Today’s young think there struggles are extreme, but they really have poor financial understanding.

      I am looking at my son's (23yo) path and I expect him to create his own wealth. He shares an apartment with 3 other people. He does handyman tasks and manages his handyman team (handful of contract employees) and at his rate would make over $100k if he worked it full time. His financial literacy is what distinguishes him from his peers. This is the 2nd handyman business he has built. He has a good understanding of a wide range of investment opportunities. He has enough money saved to put 10% on the average San Diego home (~$1m) but due to his sources of income may be challenged to get decent financing without going to a lower LTV. so he may need 20% down. I suspect he will have it before the age of 25.

      He is an example that the American dream is not dead.   Even though he has a degree from a top university (ucsb) he is going the entrepreneur route.  It better matches his personality.  This implies university degree is not necessary for the American dream even in one of the more costly home markets in the US.

      You can keep your pessimistic thoughts and think my thoughts are Pollyanna but I see young people without defeatist attitudes doing great (my son’s best friend is in vet school and does internships and works for my son as a handy person (UCSC graduate).   My son’s girlfriend teaches, book keeps, and handy person (UCSB graduate).  Her sister same roles (Oregon graduate).  These people are working multiple jobs and on their way to the American dream.   By the way son’s girlfriend and her twin sister come from broken home and were homeless.  When I met her, her dad was homeless and her mom was in jail.  Her dad died homeless. Her mom looks to be getting life in order and only recently no longer had to wear a monitor.  they both graduated from good universities.  If anyone could justify having victim mindset it would be them.  But if they had that mindset, they would not have achieved their impressive accomplishments.

      I feel sorry for those with victim mindsets as it is very limiting.   Would you rather see no opportunity or opportunity everywhere?   I see challenging opportunity.  Opportunity that may not be handed to you, but has to be worked to achieve.

      Good luck



       

       



      You need to read a bit more and type less. 

      I've said I'm not for the woe is me mentality, I said the game is changed and the dream is on its last leg. 

      And you guys are telling me let me compare today to the other times of extreme historic economic difficulties and show you how great it is. Again, how dense you must be.

      And WTF are you doing with the numbers here?  5% for today, 10% down for 1980? I used 424k too so that'd make gross income to p&I awfully close to the worst time in history! Before other costs.

      Do you not factor in absolute value, are you ignoring the cost of other expenses as I've mentioned several times? 

      Let’s look at the actual math you just proposed:

      If a modern buyer puts 5% down on a $420k home, their mortgage balance jumps to $399,000. At 6.5%, their P&I alone jumps to $2,522 a month. They'd get a higher rate due to low DP, but I'll be generous & stick to 6.5%.

      On an $80k gross salary ($6,666/month), that single line item eats up 38% of their gross income before you even touch property taxes, home insurance, utilities, or mandatory PMI. You're like greg who cherrypicks one line item while ignoring the fact I said look at the cost of everything!

      A 38% DTI before a car note & student loans. Versus 1980s with way less of other debt burdens. Again, apples to oranges.

      Read more,type less. This has to be one of the stupidest retorts I've ever read. If there's one thing you're going to read in this post.

      Don't defends today's lack of affordability by comparing it to the worst of it's time, using one single line item of expense(p&I) and saying see, the dream is still alive. Bring the entire picture of costs into context.

      I've had this conversation with you before and you go on about your son. Good for him, finding outliers doesn't strengthen the argument. Just deters from it. 

      Don't start any rebuttal without the full context of today's cost relative to the yesteryears.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Glen Olson:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.
      This quote rather undermines your position.  A house purchased for $61,000 at 14% interest rate would have a monthly payment of $723.  A person making $20,000 per year would be making $1667 per month therefore the mortgage would have been 43% of their income in 1980.  A $420,000 home purchased at 6.5% interest would have a monthly payment of $2655.  A person making $80,000 per year would be making $6667 per month therefore the house today would only cost 40% of total monthly income.

      It would seem that home ownership is more accessible now based on your example.


      Are you guys this dense? Read this part again:

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages. Your (cherry picked) point is p&I is 35% versus 32% of income today. Therefore, more accessible. My point is the down payment is $84k vs $12k. $12k is 60% of gross annual salary back then, $84k is about 100% of the gross annual salary needed now.
      Plus, the rise of the absolute mortgage (as in opex too), and general ownership (capex) is costlier. Just like everything else is relative to wages. The fact I have to explain this out is embarrassing. Look at prices folks, affordability is tough as heck for the new generation.

      Conventional OO is now up to 95% LTV. FHA for many years has been up to 96.5% LTV. I suspect when most of us purchased our first OO, conventional max LTV was 90%.

      Using your numbers again: 61k is $6.1k of $20k or 30.5% of income

      $408k is $20.4k or 25.5% of income

      Your numbers continuously show opposite the case you are trying to make when the numbers are analyzed.

      was the American dream dead in the 1980s?  I say no, but it was more challenging than today.   The numbers show this.

      Today’s young think there struggles are extreme, but they really have poor financial understanding.

      I am looking at my son's (23yo) path and I expect him to create his own wealth. He shares an apartment with 3 other people. He does handyman tasks and manages his handyman team (handful of contract employees) and at his rate would make over $100k if he worked it full time. His financial literacy is what distinguishes him from his peers. This is the 2nd handyman business he has built. He has a good understanding of a wide range of investment opportunities. He has enough money saved to put 10% on the average San Diego home (~$1m) but due to his sources of income may be challenged to get decent financing without going to a lower LTV. so he may need 20% down. I suspect he will have it before the age of 25.

      He is an example that the American dream is not dead.   Even though he has a degree from a top university (ucsb) he is going the entrepreneur route.  It better matches his personality.  This implies university degree is not necessary for the American dream even in one of the more costly home markets in the US.

      You can keep your pessimistic thoughts and think my thoughts are Pollyanna but I see young people without defeatist attitudes doing great (my son’s best friend is in vet school and does internships and works for my son as a handy person (UCSC graduate).   My son’s girlfriend teaches, book keeps, and handy person (UCSB graduate).  Her sister same roles (Oregon graduate).  These people are working multiple jobs and on their way to the American dream.   By the way son’s girlfriend and her twin sister come from broken home and were homeless.  When I met her, her dad was homeless and her mom was in jail.  Her dad died homeless. Her mom looks to be getting life in order and only recently no longer had to wear a monitor.  they both graduated from good universities.  If anyone could justify having victim mindset it would be them.  But if they had that mindset, they would not have achieved their impressive accomplishments.

      I feel sorry for those with victim mindsets as it is very limiting.   Would you rather see no opportunity or opportunity everywhere?   I see challenging opportunity.  Opportunity that may not be handed to you, but has to be worked to achieve.

      Good luck



       

       



      You need to read a bit more and type less. 

      I've said I'm not for the woe is me mentality, I said the game is changed and the dream is on its last leg. 

      And you guys are telling me let me compare today to the other times of extreme historic economic difficulties and show you how great it is. Again, how dense you must be.

      And WTF are you doing with the numbers here?  5% for today, 10% down for 1980? I used 424k too so that'd make gross income to p&I awfully close to the worst time in history! Before other costs.

      Do you not factor in absolute value, are you ignoring the cost of other expenses as I've mentioned several times? 

      Let’s look at the actual math you just proposed:

      If a modern buyer puts 5% down on a $420k home, their mortgage balance jumps to $399,000. At 6.5%, their P&I alone jumps to $2,522 a month. They'd get a higher rate due to low DP, but I'll be generous & stick to 6.5%.

      On an $80k gross salary ($6,666/month), that single line item eats up 38% of their gross income before you even touch property taxes, home insurance, utilities, or mandatory PMI. You're like greg who cherrypicks one line item while ignoring the fact I said look at the cost of everything!

      A 38% DTI before a car note & student loans. Versus 1980s with way less of other debt burdens. Again, apples to oranges.

      Read more,type less. This has to be one of the stupidest retorts I've ever read. If there's one thing you're going to read in this post.

      Don't defends today's lack of affordability by comparing it to the worst of it's time, using one single line item of expense(p&I) and saying see, the dream is still alive. Bring the entire picture of costs into context.

      I've had this conversation with you before and you go on about your son. Good for him, finding outliers doesn't strengthen the argument. Just deters from it. 

      Don't start any rebuttal without the full context of today's cost relative to the yesteryears.


      >I've said I'm not for the woe is me mentality, I said the game is changed and the dream is on its last leg.

      you cannot have it both ways.  Either it is woe for me, I live in an unaffordable time and the American dream is on respirators or not.   I see opportunity everywhere.   

       >And WTF are you doing with the numbers here? 5% for today, 10% down for 1980

      That is the reality. 1980 did not have conventional loans at 95% LTV, today does. You remarked how difficult it was to come up with the down and I responded mathematically showing that it is not that difficult today with conventional financing. The 95% conventional LTV is only a few years old. Since its introduction, the down is a lower percentage of house hold income maybe ever, but certainly less than for most of the years since there have been conventional financing. My 23 year old son who is solely a entrepreneur has accumulated enough to easily make the down on a conventional loan anywhere (qualifying for the loan could be a different story because of his unconventional ways to make money). Everyone knows the less you put down the higher your payments. I was addressing you comment on the down being hard as I had already addressed the payment being far from all time highest at 90% LTV.

      >Your own math shows a 47% income-to-mortgage burden today versus 39% in the 1980s

      There was an error in that calculation that I correct fast, but not fast enough.    The corrected number was 35.83%.    Note the 39% from the 1980s was using your interest rate and not the high point interest rate which resulted in 51% of household incomes me going to home purchase.

      >This has to be one of the stupidest retorts I've ever read.

      From the responses in this thread, it seems like on this thread your view is very much in the minority.   Maybe you think my response is stupid because I showed mathematically your statement comparing housing cost was incorrect with your numbers and way incorrect when using the actual 1980 interest rate.

      I recognize that this forum is full of high net worth individuals.  People who have found a way to make a lot of money.   I suspect few have victim mentality which explains why so many disagree with your post.  I see opportunity all over the place, more opportunity than I have time to execute on.   You see what you see.

      >Don't defends today's lack of affordability by comparing it to the worst of it's time, using one single line item of expense(p&I) and saying see, the dream is still alive. 

      Many of the younger generation believe this to be the least affordable time to purchase a home ever and many of them cried about the home purchase cost in 2014 to 2021 not realizing that period was cheaper financed home purchase than most of the previous 50 years.   I do agree since the rate hikes starting q2 2022 that home purchases are expensive and having to go back 40+ years for more expensive homesshows this, but they are not at the all time most costly.

      I think a victim mentality is a self fulfilling prophecy and harms those that have that belief.  My son’s girlfriend and her sister have more reason to have victim mentality than virtually everyone but they mostly do not.   Today my son’s girlfriend and her twin sister taught summer school in the morning at an Indian reservation (with a long commute that they carpooled) then went to a job site to work.  I would not be surprised if my son’s girlfriend did some bookkeeping work this evening. 

      Those that have victim mentality have little reason to overcome the challenges.  Those without victim mentality can work toward financial success and believe they have control of their destiny.  Which would you rather be?   Which do you think is more beneficial to the individual?

      Good luck

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2mo

    Every so often people say this when some type of economic cycle takes a downturn. And every time people think this will continue forever. Amazing how people never learn from the past. They say history doesn't repeat itself. Human nature does.

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2mo

    "One often hears the young men of this generation say they do not have the chances that their fathers and grandfathers had."

    John D. Rockefeller, 1909

    Sounds familiar.

  • Investor · Bridgeville, PA · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 15 votes
    2mo

    @V.G Jason 

    Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

    People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

    Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.


    • Real Estate Investor · West Linn, OR · Member since 2017 · 134 posts · 62 votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.

    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.

       There's no simple answer to any of these things because a lot of things can be true at the same time. Since we're talking about the US, I'll stick to that.

      1. The poor today live better than any poor have lived in the history of the world. I see homeless people walking around with Iphones. It is the rare poor person that doesn't have, at a minimum, electricity, running water & some type of sewer system, and internet access. Where I live I would add central AC to that as even the cheapest housing around here has central hvac. Most poor people have access to reasonable transportation, whether that's public transit, taking an Uber, or owning a cheap car. Beyond those things even the poorest slobs have dishwashers, flat screen TVs, smart phones. 

      2. That doesn't mean that overall costs are tough for people today. Societies become victims of their own success. People are happy relative to other people. So someone who has all the stuff I mentioned above but little money left over feels poor.

      3. My own experience is that people don't want opportunities - they want success and they want it now. Before I retired a few years ago the worst part of my job had become having to hire. These were jobs that were good opportunities - pension system, full health insurance, paid vacation, etc. Starting pay for a young guy, say 19 or 20, no experience no training no education was a couple of bucks beyond your average low-pay starting job (Walmart, fast food, etc) but the opportunity to advance in pay and responsibility was great. You couldn't hardly give these jobs away because as soon as guys heard they might have to work outside in the rain or come in to fix a broken water line at 2 AM, making time and a half, they completely lost interest. There are opportunities everywhere and people see what they want to see. A large percentage of people I talk to/deal with don't even want to work a regular job - they only want to work a hustle economy because they don't want to be tied down M-F. So they'll work part time at one place, do Uber one day or DoorDash, go to yard sales and find stuff to sell on Ebay or Fbook Marketplace. That's fine if that's how you want to live but then don't cry about not having enough money. People today (I'm not limiting this to just young people) want a paycheck and all their free time. I know people who are way poorer than I am that simply refuse to cut their own lawn; they'd rather pay a guy $1000 for the season than spend 30 minutes once a week for 30 weeks cutting their own grass. By my quick calcs that's 15 hours of time/$1000 = $66/hr or extrapolate to $137k/annual if it was a job. My cell phone plan for example costs $18/month and that covers 2 lines and 2 gig of data, unlimited text/phone calls. I have a code that I can send to people for a referral, and they would get a free month and then that same deal. So people tell me that their cell phone plan has gone up to $100 per month and I send them the referral code. How many people have redeemed their code? ZERO. That right there is $1000/year. So we're not talking about dumb stuff like skipping your dollar coffee, but it just boils down to getting opportunities and then taking advantage of them. 

      4. Student loans - there is zero reason you have to even end up with student loans in most of the states these days. Plenty of them have funded programs, for example through the state lottery, where the first two years of community college is free, so you only have to come up with two years of 2 year university tuition. And if you stick to a state university, and even better one that is local to you, most of these kids can live at home and get their degree. There's nothing exceptional about my grandson, yet he's about to graduate with a BS in some type of biological medical sciences with no student loans. I didn't give him 50 cents to go to college, other than his meager birthday and holiday gifts whatever he did with the cash. When he graduated HS I gave him a car ($4000). But what I gave him was a constant drumbeat of "Do not take out any student loans without talking to me". Instead he worked PT at various jobs to just make enough money to cover his tuition (which he paid for all 4 years since he didn't go to community college but lived at home and went to state) and books. He worked at Home Depot. He worked for "College hunks hauling junk". He worked some landscaping. All menial, unskilled labor. He's planning on continuing his Master for something to do with medical body parts (replacement knees, etc). I don't understand a lot of it but he's got the most important thing he needs - a good work ethic. His brother has more natural smarts but is far lazier and thus has gone nowhere in comparison; good kid, just no ambition so opportunities just stop at the next door. 

      I don't disagree with a lot of premises in here. We should still have economic opportunities for people who just want to pick up the trash or fix the car, because we need those people and they shouldn't have to work 2 jobs to make a go of it. There's definitely too much wealth concentrated at the top (worldwide) and that is detrimental to all of society. Housing in some areas is unhinged from affordability. But the "American Dream" dead? Tell that to all the people trying like hell to get into this country. I personally know naturalized citizens that own their own businesses, rental properties, put their kids through great schools, etc and there was nothing exceptional about them except their willingness to bust *** and get it done. I know a guy that left Iran just after the Revolution, came here with nothing. Lived with a bunch of other people, pooled money and started a pizza joint on a shoestring. Eventually saved enough money to buy the building, which was just barely over $100k then. It's worth about a million today. The business is still there (he still owns it) and no telling what it's worth. All he ever did was get out and bust it out every day. I have a friend who's from Mexico that owns a string of successful restaurants here. 20 years ago he barely spoke English and was a waiter in his older brother's restaurant, then had to figure it out when that restaurant closed. Nothing exceptional about him except his work ethic.  

      If someone wanted to do nothing else but just show up and be told what to do, a guy could join the military at 18, do 20 years, and retire at 38 with (today's dollars) a pension of about $35k annually, with lifetime medical & dental for you and your dependents. Hell, you could just do the minimum enlistment and get access to VA loans, free education dollars, VA healthcare, etc.

      You get out of life what you're willing to put in. Things may be easier or harder over time but on balance in this country at least you make your own way. 

      Skyline Properties
      View Page
    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....

    • Real Estate Investor · West Linn, OR · Member since 2017 · 134 posts · 62 votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

    • Real Estate Investor · West Linn, OR · Member since 2017 · 134 posts · 62 votes
      1mo
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.

       There's no simple answer to any of these things because a lot of things can be true at the same time. Since we're talking about the US, I'll stick to that.

      1. The poor today live better than any poor have lived in the history of the world. I see homeless people walking around with Iphones. It is the rare poor person that doesn't have, at a minimum, electricity, running water & some type of sewer system, and internet access. Where I live I would add central AC to that as even the cheapest housing around here has central hvac. Most poor people have access to reasonable transportation, whether that's public transit, taking an Uber, or owning a cheap car. Beyond those things even the poorest slobs have dishwashers, flat screen TVs, smart phones. 

      2. That doesn't mean that overall costs are tough for people today. Societies become victims of their own success. People are happy relative to other people. So someone who has all the stuff I mentioned above but little money left over feels poor.

      3. My own experience is that people don't want opportunities - they want success and they want it now. Before I retired a few years ago the worst part of my job had become having to hire. These were jobs that were good opportunities - pension system, full health insurance, paid vacation, etc. Starting pay for a young guy, say 19 or 20, no experience no training no education was a couple of bucks beyond your average low-pay starting job (Walmart, fast food, etc) but the opportunity to advance in pay and responsibility was great. You couldn't hardly give these jobs away because as soon as guys heard they might have to work outside in the rain or come in to fix a broken water line at 2 AM, making time and a half, they completely lost interest. There are opportunities everywhere and people see what they want to see. A large percentage of people I talk to/deal with don't even want to work a regular job - they only want to work a hustle economy because they don't want to be tied down M-F. So they'll work part time at one place, do Uber one day or DoorDash, go to yard sales and find stuff to sell on Ebay or Fbook Marketplace. That's fine if that's how you want to live but then don't cry about not having enough money. People today (I'm not limiting this to just young people) want a paycheck and all their free time. I know people who are way poorer than I am that simply refuse to cut their own lawn; they'd rather pay a guy $1000 for the season than spend 30 minutes once a week for 30 weeks cutting their own grass. By my quick calcs that's 15 hours of time/$1000 = $66/hr or extrapolate to $137k/annual if it was a job. My cell phone plan for example costs $18/month and that covers 2 lines and 2 gig of data, unlimited text/phone calls. I have a code that I can send to people for a referral, and they would get a free month and then that same deal. So people tell me that their cell phone plan has gone up to $100 per month and I send them the referral code. How many people have redeemed their code? ZERO. That right there is $1000/year. So we're not talking about dumb stuff like skipping your dollar coffee, but it just boils down to getting opportunities and then taking advantage of them. 

      4. Student loans - there is zero reason you have to even end up with student loans in most of the states these days. Plenty of them have funded programs, for example through the state lottery, where the first two years of community college is free, so you only have to come up with two years of 2 year university tuition. And if you stick to a state university, and even better one that is local to you, most of these kids can live at home and get their degree. There's nothing exceptional about my grandson, yet he's about to graduate with a BS in some type of biological medical sciences with no student loans. I didn't give him 50 cents to go to college, other than his meager birthday and holiday gifts whatever he did with the cash. When he graduated HS I gave him a car ($4000). But what I gave him was a constant drumbeat of "Do not take out any student loans without talking to me". Instead he worked PT at various jobs to just make enough money to cover his tuition (which he paid for all 4 years since he didn't go to community college but lived at home and went to state) and books. He worked at Home Depot. He worked for "College hunks hauling junk". He worked some landscaping. All menial, unskilled labor. He's planning on continuing his Master for something to do with medical body parts (replacement knees, etc). I don't understand a lot of it but he's got the most important thing he needs - a good work ethic. His brother has more natural smarts but is far lazier and thus has gone nowhere in comparison; good kid, just no ambition so opportunities just stop at the next door. 

      I don't disagree with a lot of premises in here. We should still have economic opportunities for people who just want to pick up the trash or fix the car, because we need those people and they shouldn't have to work 2 jobs to make a go of it. There's definitely too much wealth concentrated at the top (worldwide) and that is detrimental to all of society. Housing in some areas is unhinged from affordability. But the "American Dream" dead? Tell that to all the people trying like hell to get into this country. I personally know naturalized citizens that own their own businesses, rental properties, put their kids through great schools, etc and there was nothing exceptional about them except their willingness to bust *** and get it done. I know a guy that left Iran just after the Revolution, came here with nothing. Lived with a bunch of other people, pooled money and started a pizza joint on a shoestring. Eventually saved enough money to buy the building, which was just barely over $100k then. It's worth about a million today. The business is still there (he still owns it) and no telling what it's worth. All he ever did was get out and bust it out every day. I have a friend who's from Mexico that owns a string of successful restaurants here. 20 years ago he barely spoke English and was a waiter in his older brother's restaurant, then had to figure it out when that restaurant closed. Nothing exceptional about him except his work ethic.  

      If someone wanted to do nothing else but just show up and be told what to do, a guy could join the military at 18, do 20 years, and retire at 38 with (today's dollars) a pension of about $35k annually, with lifetime medical & dental for you and your dependents. Hell, you could just do the minimum enlistment and get access to VA loans, free education dollars, VA healthcare, etc.

      You get out of life what you're willing to put in. Things may be easier or harder over time but on balance in this country at least you make your own way. 


      I hear ya man and I did some combination of all your recommendations, I personally would beg my kids not to join the military and that is the route I went and got free education out of it. There are definitely low iq, low work ethic young people but if I had to guess I would bet it pretty closely mirrors the ratios of every other generation in history. Our national goal should always be for it to get easier for each successive generation, not harder, in my opinion. That is leaving something better then you found it rather then worse.

    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.

    • Real Estate Investor · West Linn, OR · Member since 2017 · 134 posts · 62 votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

      With all due respect, I don't agree that our kids don't have it easier....first we would have to define easier, I guess... :-)

      Their lives are insanely easy in most ways. Now if we're talking only about buying property? Then yeah, maybe, but there are so many more ways to make money today...large amounts of money. 

      Just my $.02
    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.

       There's no simple answer to any of these things because a lot of things can be true at the same time. Since we're talking about the US, I'll stick to that.

      1. The poor today live better than any poor have lived in the history of the world. I see homeless people walking around with Iphones. It is the rare poor person that doesn't have, at a minimum, electricity, running water & some type of sewer system, and internet access. Where I live I would add central AC to that as even the cheapest housing around here has central hvac. Most poor people have access to reasonable transportation, whether that's public transit, taking an Uber, or owning a cheap car. Beyond those things even the poorest slobs have dishwashers, flat screen TVs, smart phones. 

      2. That doesn't mean that overall costs are tough for people today. Societies become victims of their own success. People are happy relative to other people. So someone who has all the stuff I mentioned above but little money left over feels poor.

      3. My own experience is that people don't want opportunities - they want success and they want it now. Before I retired a few years ago the worst part of my job had become having to hire. These were jobs that were good opportunities - pension system, full health insurance, paid vacation, etc. Starting pay for a young guy, say 19 or 20, no experience no training no education was a couple of bucks beyond your average low-pay starting job (Walmart, fast food, etc) but the opportunity to advance in pay and responsibility was great. You couldn't hardly give these jobs away because as soon as guys heard they might have to work outside in the rain or come in to fix a broken water line at 2 AM, making time and a half, they completely lost interest. There are opportunities everywhere and people see what they want to see. A large percentage of people I talk to/deal with don't even want to work a regular job - they only want to work a hustle economy because they don't want to be tied down M-F. So they'll work part time at one place, do Uber one day or DoorDash, go to yard sales and find stuff to sell on Ebay or Fbook Marketplace. That's fine if that's how you want to live but then don't cry about not having enough money. People today (I'm not limiting this to just young people) want a paycheck and all their free time. I know people who are way poorer than I am that simply refuse to cut their own lawn; they'd rather pay a guy $1000 for the season than spend 30 minutes once a week for 30 weeks cutting their own grass. By my quick calcs that's 15 hours of time/$1000 = $66/hr or extrapolate to $137k/annual if it was a job. My cell phone plan for example costs $18/month and that covers 2 lines and 2 gig of data, unlimited text/phone calls. I have a code that I can send to people for a referral, and they would get a free month and then that same deal. So people tell me that their cell phone plan has gone up to $100 per month and I send them the referral code. How many people have redeemed their code? ZERO. That right there is $1000/year. So we're not talking about dumb stuff like skipping your dollar coffee, but it just boils down to getting opportunities and then taking advantage of them. 

      4. Student loans - there is zero reason you have to even end up with student loans in most of the states these days. Plenty of them have funded programs, for example through the state lottery, where the first two years of community college is free, so you only have to come up with two years of 2 year university tuition. And if you stick to a state university, and even better one that is local to you, most of these kids can live at home and get their degree. There's nothing exceptional about my grandson, yet he's about to graduate with a BS in some type of biological medical sciences with no student loans. I didn't give him 50 cents to go to college, other than his meager birthday and holiday gifts whatever he did with the cash. When he graduated HS I gave him a car ($4000). But what I gave him was a constant drumbeat of "Do not take out any student loans without talking to me". Instead he worked PT at various jobs to just make enough money to cover his tuition (which he paid for all 4 years since he didn't go to community college but lived at home and went to state) and books. He worked at Home Depot. He worked for "College hunks hauling junk". He worked some landscaping. All menial, unskilled labor. He's planning on continuing his Master for something to do with medical body parts (replacement knees, etc). I don't understand a lot of it but he's got the most important thing he needs - a good work ethic. His brother has more natural smarts but is far lazier and thus has gone nowhere in comparison; good kid, just no ambition so opportunities just stop at the next door. 

      I don't disagree with a lot of premises in here. We should still have economic opportunities for people who just want to pick up the trash or fix the car, because we need those people and they shouldn't have to work 2 jobs to make a go of it. There's definitely too much wealth concentrated at the top (worldwide) and that is detrimental to all of society. Housing in some areas is unhinged from affordability. But the "American Dream" dead? Tell that to all the people trying like hell to get into this country. I personally know naturalized citizens that own their own businesses, rental properties, put their kids through great schools, etc and there was nothing exceptional about them except their willingness to bust *** and get it done. I know a guy that left Iran just after the Revolution, came here with nothing. Lived with a bunch of other people, pooled money and started a pizza joint on a shoestring. Eventually saved enough money to buy the building, which was just barely over $100k then. It's worth about a million today. The business is still there (he still owns it) and no telling what it's worth. All he ever did was get out and bust it out every day. I have a friend who's from Mexico that owns a string of successful restaurants here. 20 years ago he barely spoke English and was a waiter in his older brother's restaurant, then had to figure it out when that restaurant closed. Nothing exceptional about him except his work ethic.  

      If someone wanted to do nothing else but just show up and be told what to do, a guy could join the military at 18, do 20 years, and retire at 38 with (today's dollars) a pension of about $35k annually, with lifetime medical & dental for you and your dependents. Hell, you could just do the minimum enlistment and get access to VA loans, free education dollars, VA healthcare, etc.

      You get out of life what you're willing to put in. Things may be easier or harder over time but on balance in this country at least you make your own way. 


      I hear ya man and I did some combination of all your recommendations, I personally would beg my kids not to join the military and that is the route I went and got free education out of it. There are definitely low iq, low work ethic young people but if I had to guess I would bet it pretty closely mirrors the ratios of every other generation in history. Our national goal should always be for it to get easier for each successive generation, not harder, in my opinion. That is leaving something better then you found it rather then worse.


       I'm not so sure that our national goal should be to make life easier for each successive generation. The logical conclusion of such a strategy is people sitting around with every need met without effort. I don't think we are equipped for that type of scenario emotionally or mentally, beyond the obvious physical degeneration. That type of strategy diminishes the value of work, and I think work is a big part of what makes us human. Not necessarily work slinging burgers or greeting shoppers (neither of which I devalue here) but the idea that you put forth effort and inspiration into action and see reward, which may not necessarily be money but can be money. 

      Most of what I'm proud of in my life is a direct result of my efforts. I also went the military route, mostly because I didn't know what else to do with myself, and even though I spent a lot of time fighting it (I am anti-authoritarian by nature) I got a ton out of it - discipline, confidence, exposure to other people and societies. I saw and went places where I saw obscene poverty, with virtually no opportunities for the people there. If you are born or brought to this country the available opportunities are limitless, and while I don't deny we have our problems mostly what I hear is a lot of belly-aching by people who have had it so good for so long that they cannot fathom being subjected to any type of discomfort. 

      Skyline Properties
      View Page
    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      I absolutely believe the work ethic is diminished, because life has become so much easier in general. It would be irrational for people to work harder than necessary. My generation didn't have to work as hard as my grandparents generation, and in general didn't have an equal work ethic. If you compare our work ethic here to much of the world it's a joke, regardless of generation.

      That said, working hard without a plan is just a recipe for a broken back. One of the things that made the US unmatchable was a strong work ethic combined with innovation, inspiration and suitable resource allocation. Compare what we are doing to China. I can take someone to a section of Interstate near me that has been under construction to add a couple of lanes for 20 miles for over 20 years. China can build an entire city from scratch in a year. Look at their infrastructure and look at ours. We look like the 3rd world country. 
      Skyline Properties
      View Page
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.

       There's no simple answer to any of these things because a lot of things can be true at the same time. Since we're talking about the US, I'll stick to that.

      1. The poor today live better than any poor have lived in the history of the world. I see homeless people walking around with Iphones. It is the rare poor person that doesn't have, at a minimum, electricity, running water & some type of sewer system, and internet access. Where I live I would add central AC to that as even the cheapest housing around here has central hvac. Most poor people have access to reasonable transportation, whether that's public transit, taking an Uber, or owning a cheap car. Beyond those things even the poorest slobs have dishwashers, flat screen TVs, smart phones. 

      2. That doesn't mean that overall costs are tough for people today. Societies become victims of their own success. People are happy relative to other people. So someone who has all the stuff I mentioned above but little money left over feels poor.

      3. My own experience is that people don't want opportunities - they want success and they want it now. Before I retired a few years ago the worst part of my job had become having to hire. These were jobs that were good opportunities - pension system, full health insurance, paid vacation, etc. Starting pay for a young guy, say 19 or 20, no experience no training no education was a couple of bucks beyond your average low-pay starting job (Walmart, fast food, etc) but the opportunity to advance in pay and responsibility was great. You couldn't hardly give these jobs away because as soon as guys heard they might have to work outside in the rain or come in to fix a broken water line at 2 AM, making time and a half, they completely lost interest. There are opportunities everywhere and people see what they want to see. A large percentage of people I talk to/deal with don't even want to work a regular job - they only want to work a hustle economy because they don't want to be tied down M-F. So they'll work part time at one place, do Uber one day or DoorDash, go to yard sales and find stuff to sell on Ebay or Fbook Marketplace. That's fine if that's how you want to live but then don't cry about not having enough money. People today (I'm not limiting this to just young people) want a paycheck and all their free time. I know people who are way poorer than I am that simply refuse to cut their own lawn; they'd rather pay a guy $1000 for the season than spend 30 minutes once a week for 30 weeks cutting their own grass. By my quick calcs that's 15 hours of time/$1000 = $66/hr or extrapolate to $137k/annual if it was a job. My cell phone plan for example costs $18/month and that covers 2 lines and 2 gig of data, unlimited text/phone calls. I have a code that I can send to people for a referral, and they would get a free month and then that same deal. So people tell me that their cell phone plan has gone up to $100 per month and I send them the referral code. How many people have redeemed their code? ZERO. That right there is $1000/year. So we're not talking about dumb stuff like skipping your dollar coffee, but it just boils down to getting opportunities and then taking advantage of them. 

      4. Student loans - there is zero reason you have to even end up with student loans in most of the states these days. Plenty of them have funded programs, for example through the state lottery, where the first two years of community college is free, so you only have to come up with two years of 2 year university tuition. And if you stick to a state university, and even better one that is local to you, most of these kids can live at home and get their degree. There's nothing exceptional about my grandson, yet he's about to graduate with a BS in some type of biological medical sciences with no student loans. I didn't give him 50 cents to go to college, other than his meager birthday and holiday gifts whatever he did with the cash. When he graduated HS I gave him a car ($4000). But what I gave him was a constant drumbeat of "Do not take out any student loans without talking to me". Instead he worked PT at various jobs to just make enough money to cover his tuition (which he paid for all 4 years since he didn't go to community college but lived at home and went to state) and books. He worked at Home Depot. He worked for "College hunks hauling junk". He worked some landscaping. All menial, unskilled labor. He's planning on continuing his Master for something to do with medical body parts (replacement knees, etc). I don't understand a lot of it but he's got the most important thing he needs - a good work ethic. His brother has more natural smarts but is far lazier and thus has gone nowhere in comparison; good kid, just no ambition so opportunities just stop at the next door. 

      I don't disagree with a lot of premises in here. We should still have economic opportunities for people who just want to pick up the trash or fix the car, because we need those people and they shouldn't have to work 2 jobs to make a go of it. There's definitely too much wealth concentrated at the top (worldwide) and that is detrimental to all of society. Housing in some areas is unhinged from affordability. But the "American Dream" dead? Tell that to all the people trying like hell to get into this country. I personally know naturalized citizens that own their own businesses, rental properties, put their kids through great schools, etc and there was nothing exceptional about them except their willingness to bust *** and get it done. I know a guy that left Iran just after the Revolution, came here with nothing. Lived with a bunch of other people, pooled money and started a pizza joint on a shoestring. Eventually saved enough money to buy the building, which was just barely over $100k then. It's worth about a million today. The business is still there (he still owns it) and no telling what it's worth. All he ever did was get out and bust it out every day. I have a friend who's from Mexico that owns a string of successful restaurants here. 20 years ago he barely spoke English and was a waiter in his older brother's restaurant, then had to figure it out when that restaurant closed. Nothing exceptional about him except his work ethic.  

      If someone wanted to do nothing else but just show up and be told what to do, a guy could join the military at 18, do 20 years, and retire at 38 with (today's dollars) a pension of about $35k annually, with lifetime medical & dental for you and your dependents. Hell, you could just do the minimum enlistment and get access to VA loans, free education dollars, VA healthcare, etc.

      You get out of life what you're willing to put in. Things may be easier or harder over time but on balance in this country at least you make your own way. 


      I hear ya man and I did some combination of all your recommendations, I personally would beg my kids not to join the military and that is the route I went and got free education out of it. There are definitely low iq, low work ethic young people but if I had to guess I would bet it pretty closely mirrors the ratios of every other generation in history. Our national goal should always be for it to get easier for each successive generation, not harder, in my opinion. That is leaving something better then you found it rather then worse.


       I'm not so sure that our national goal should be to make life easier for each successive generation. 

       It should be simpler, not easier. Instead, it's heavily congested at the median level of survival. That's not easier or simpler.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @JD Martin:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      I absolutely believe the work ethic is diminished, because life has become so much easier in general. It would be irrational for people to work harder than necessary. My generation didn't have to work as hard as my grandparents generation, and in general didn't have an equal work ethic. If you compare our work ethic here to much of the world it's a joke, regardless of generation.

      That said, working hard without a plan is just a recipe for a broken back. One of the things that made the US unmatchable was a strong work ethic combined with innovation, inspiration and suitable resource allocation. Compare what we are doing to China. I can take someone to a section of Interstate near me that has been under construction to add a couple of lanes for 20 miles for over 20 years. China can build an entire city from scratch in a year. Look at their infrastructure and look at ours. We look like the 3rd world country. 

       Work ethic has not diminished. Transparency of incentives have been exposed.

      Read my post about the distrust in the system earlier in this thread. Saying work ethic has been diminished is missing the forest for the trees; restructure the incentive and watch the "work ethic". 

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

      With all due respect, I don't agree that our kids don't have it easier....first we would have to define easier, I guess... :-)

      Their lives are insanely easy in most ways. Now if we're talking only about buying property? Then yeah, maybe, but there are so many more ways to make money today...large amounts of money. 

      Just my $.02

       Here we go again.

      This is the same person who, when pressed for tangible examples of these vast new opportunities, literally suggested being a waiter in Scottsdale. Go figure.

      I think you're relying too much on generational rhetoric and echo chambers rather than actually observing what’s happening across different age groups in the real economy today.

      If your point is that the ceiling in America is higher than ever, I completely agre. There is massive wealth creation at the top. 

      But the baseline floor has been raised so high that the gap between the top performers and the median worker is wider than ever. And young kids start at the floor, unless you're a nepo baby.

      Being in the top 10% was never supposed to be the entry requirement for a stable life. For the middle 60% of society, navigating the baseline cost of survival today is harder than at almost any point in modern American history. I think only the Great Recession & Depression were harder.

    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

      With all due respect, I don't agree that our kids don't have it easier....first we would have to define easier, I guess... :-)

      Their lives are insanely easy in most ways. Now if we're talking only about buying property? Then yeah, maybe, but there are so many more ways to make money today...large amounts of money. 

      Just my $.02

       Here we go again.

      This is the same person who, when pressed for tangible examples of these vast new opportunities, literally suggested being a waiter in Scottsdale. Go figure.

      I think you're relying too much on generational rhetoric and echo chambers rather than actually observing what’s happening across different age groups in the real economy today.

      If your point is that the ceiling in America is higher than ever, I completely agre. There is massive wealth creation at the top. 

      But the baseline floor has been raised so high that the gap between the top performers and the median worker is wider than ever. And young kids start at the floor, unless you're a nepo baby.

      Being in the top 10% was never supposed to be the entry requirement for a stable life. For the middle 60% of society, navigating the baseline cost of survival today is harder than at almost any point in modern American history. I think only the Great Recession & Depression were harder.

      It must be tough being wrong and almost everything you say.....
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....

      Says who or what? 

      Facts: for the first time in modern economic history, recent college graduates have a higher unemployment rate than the general public during a period of economic growth.

      source: fed reserve (ny to be specific) and epi.
      Underemployment is 2 in every 5 for the youngsters.
      Underemployment mean an economic situation where a worker's job does not fully utilize their skills or education. 

      The biggest problem we have in society today is folks like this who are completely clueless to what's actually happening on the ground. It's almost as wide of a gap as the politicians and your normal civilian in life. 

      Totally ignorant.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

      With all due respect, I don't agree that our kids don't have it easier....first we would have to define easier, I guess... :-)

      Their lives are insanely easy in most ways. Now if we're talking only about buying property? Then yeah, maybe, but there are so many more ways to make money today...large amounts of money. 

      Just my $.02

       Here we go again.

      This is the same person who, when pressed for tangible examples of these vast new opportunities, literally suggested being a waiter in Scottsdale. Go figure.

      I think you're relying too much on generational rhetoric and echo chambers rather than actually observing what’s happening across different age groups in the real economy today.

      If your point is that the ceiling in America is higher than ever, I completely agre. There is massive wealth creation at the top. 

      But the baseline floor has been raised so high that the gap between the top performers and the median worker is wider than ever. And young kids start at the floor, unless you're a nepo baby.

      Being in the top 10% was never supposed to be the entry requirement for a stable life. For the middle 60% of society, navigating the baseline cost of survival today is harder than at almost any point in modern American history. I think only the Great Recession & Depression were harder.

      It must be tough being wrong and almost everything you say.....

       So wrong, yet nothing you can refute.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

       I have answered this question previously in this thread.

      The young people at MTR summit (many are Jesse Vasquez followers who have paid for his coaching/mentoring) are using STR/mtr arbitrage. I personally think it is removing the likely best source of return, but I met multiple young people who started this way that are crushing it. I see less young people at BPCon, but those there are on a likely path to crushing it (my son may attend this year).

      My son has started, for the 2nd time (first he had a dozen people he was providing work for and he gave this business to his best friend when my son was 17 yo), a handyman business. He has graduated from UCSB.  He has 5 or 6 regularly working handymen that he provides work.  He has another 4 or 5 occasional people he gives work to.  He has more work than he can handle.   He has enough money saved that he could buy in San Diego and is looking for a good flip or value add house hack.

      My first protege (not current, but worth telling) I met shortly after he reached bottom.  As he tells it he was passed out in some random drug house and thought what the f*** was he doing.  He made the decision for change.  It was not easy.   He had no employment history that was useful.   He started as the janitor/maintenance person at a church as the church was the only place that would give him a chance (he says he had already used up every other chance).   I met him after he had been clean awhile.  I hired him as a part time handyman.   Best handyman I ever had.  He purchased properties, did value adds, extracted investment, repeat (brrrrr).  He is top 10% wealth today.

      My son’s girlfriend and her twin when I met them (when they were 18 or 19 yo) their dad was homeless and their mom in prison.   The girls had experienced homelessness.  Since then the dad died homeless but mom is out of prison and no longer monitored. They were motivated and not victims.   They both graduated from good universities.    They both work multiple jobs (including for my son).   They live in a high B area in San Diego (pt Loma) with my son.   They both believe in the American dream and I suspect they will both achieve it.

      Another one of my protégés (23 yo) is in vet school.   He wants his own vet practice.  I think he will achieve it.

      An ex-protege (22 yo) went to naval nuclear school.  I have not much contact with him (last time he wanted to buy one of my cars but I had already promised that one to my son).  I think he will achieve the American dream.

      These are just some of the young people I encounter of the path to achieving the American dream.  The young people I encounter that do not appear on this path typically lack motivation.   One of my son’s occasional workers worked at various restaurants hoping to get promoted to server.  He recently reached that goal.   Good for him, but should that even be a goal if you goal is the American dream.    This goal is holding him back from other potential opportunities but he does not at this time have the vision to notice this.

      Another ex-protege is a software engineer.  He current works on autonomous drone technology.   He has 4 units (2 in expensive San Diego and 2 in Virginia Beach).  He recently got married and they just started to try to have a child.  Assuming they succeed at having a child, he will achieve the American dream.  I think he is mid 30s.. Last time I met with him, he paid for my lunch.   It was his way of saying he has made it and to say thanks.

      lots of young people are crushing it.   There are also lots who are not.   In general, those not crushing it are not people looking for ways to crush it.   In my examples, I included people who were at the bottom.   My initial protege, homeless in drug house to top 10% er.   

      I found the MTR summit to have too much selling of the program, but if you want to see young people hustling, and some crushing it, there are likely few places that would do better.

      The fact that I see so many young people who are crushing it makes clear that there is a path to the American dream.   The fact that many young people do not see the path or are not motivated enough to execute on such a path does not imply it is on life support.  It would be on life support if I w not to a conference like MTR summit and did not meet young people on the path to crushing it.

      You can let those with victim mentality convince you that the American dream is on life support.  I chose to let the young people that are crushing it enforce the American dream is thriving.   

      Good luck

    • Henry ClarkPro Member
      Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.


       Forget that waiter job.  They should start a truck garden and bagging groceries for tips.  That worked for me.

       It doesn’t matter where you start.   It’s about how hungry you are.  I believe in people being poor and wanting.  I don’t want every generation “across” the board having it better.  The rich family now will be the poor family in 3 generations.  

      Yes it is harder now for the median family.  No it is not harder now to get rich, it is easier.  

      1.  After coming off the gold standard printing money as the Fiat currency opened the gates.  Steady inflation.  Which is fine if you have hard assets.

      2.  Global economy.  Took most of the U.S. manufacturing jobs overseas.  Which are the backbone jobs of the middle income.  Even farmers who own huge assets which have grown with inflation are getting killed due to globalization.  They are cash poor.  I’m in the Midwest. 

      3.  15mm illegal immigrants caused the bottom housing to skyrocket.  Starter homes or starter units.  No impact to the middle or higher income housing.  

      How to get there?

      1.  Our kids are starting at a better spots than us.  They do run into a brick wall.  But luckily there is a huge vacuum as the baby boomers exit the job market that pulls the ranks up.  Plus the baby boomer wealth will roll over in the next 20 years.

      2.  Ask 15mm illegal immigrants how they are making it plus sending money home.  Second largest revenue stream for Mexico is cash sent back from the U.S.

      3.  Get your GED because your head wasn’t in straight after your dad just died.  Get a hvac job and be running your own truck in 2 years and buy a house in two years.  

      4.  Get a USDA loan for 0% down and low interest rate.

      5.  Buy a trailer lot near me for $25,000.  Live in a trailer and rent one room out.  In a 1mm metro job market.

      6. Buy 2 months of food for $300.

      7.  Buy your clothes at a Thrift store.  New or slightly used Jeans for $6 versus $50.

      8.  Join the military.  Earn E5 so you can stay off base.  Use your tax free BAH to pay down a trailer or house.  Even if you sell at the purchase price you make $40k to $50k in 2 to 4 years.  Keep going up in size.  You will be, not maybe, a millionaire by 42 or 43.

      9.  Don’t want to join the military.  Go civil service overseas.  You then get tax free BAH.

      10.  If you join the military join in Texas after one year.  Then your kids get free tuition at a Texas state school.  

      11.  Get into nursing.  After 2 years start working for a hospital part time and they will pay your next 2 years.  Buy a house and get 3 other nurses to share and help pay. 

      12.   Etc etc.  the question is are you hungry?  Then there is a way.  Yes it is harder if you don’t have a path.  Wages and housing have split dramatically.  Federal tax laws are meant for housing to have advantages that renters don’t enjoy.  But unless you plan to save the masses, I wouldn’t worry about their investments because they never will invest.  If you’re worried about them, make a separate post on food and I will show you how to eat for less.

      5,000 square foot house. In the middle of a great lively town of 30,000.  His funeral is today.  My friends father.  Youngest of 8 kids from a poor family.  He had 6 kids I went to school with.  All of them got a college degree he did not.  Military retiree and pipe fitter.  All kids are middle income and have houses.  How hungry are you???  Yes this happened in an earlier economy, but not “easy” for them.  How hungry are you???!

      The group on BP are probably the wrong group to get them to say the world is tougher now.  Because even if they start with $0 and the world is 10 times tougher.  They are going to say so what.  They are Hungry.  

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo

       The scenario I suggested was in a better spot than the average grad. 3.2 GPA, $500 cash & $28k in student debt. You're just graduated now what. To your points 

      1. That's a fallacy, the boomers retiring aren't bringing Gen Z up the ranks. It's select millennials and gen Z are gapped due to this underemployment.A 60 year old retiring isn't bringing the 22 year old in, that's long gone due to tech and AI.

      In my specific example of this fresh grad, this isn't a solution. They are on the outside looking in.

      2. Well, those immigrants aren't sitting with $28k debt that grows so doesn't help. These will be solutions to different problems.

      3. So after graduating with $28k in debt, go into trade school? Possible, but now you're more in debt. You got to fight the current here-- that's student debt and you're advantage is time. But you're using it terribly inefficiently by going to college then now trade school?

      Again, no solution here.

      4. Ok, you have no job, $28k in debt, and you're getting a loan you can't afford to pay for closing costs. What's the end game here?

      5. They only have $500, no job, $28k in student loans. How are they buying a trailer now? The goal is to find these incredible opportunities. This isn't it.

      6. Ok, I think we're missing the point.

      7. Same here.

      8. Definitely a viable solution, but this isn't on par with "incredible" opportunity.

      9. Possible, but missing incredible opportunity again.

      10. We're talking kids now? The kid is a kid. 22 year old fresh grad, he's not thinking that. How does this show them all these incredible opportunities.

      11. Now go get nursing degree? Possible, like trade school. But void of this "incredible" opportunity everyone speaks of.

      12. It's not about hunger. It's about understanding optionality, risks, and being intentional. I'll explain in my next post.

      But none of these are incredible opportunities for my 22 year old, fresh grad with a 3.2 gpa, $500 in the bank, $28k in student loans. These are survival tactics not growth ones.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

       I have answered this question previously in this thread.

      The young people at MTR summit (many are Jesse Vasquez followers who have paid for his coaching/mentoring) are using STR/mtr arbitrage. I personally think it is removing the likely best source of return, but I met multiple young people who started this way that are crushing it. I see less young people at BPCon, but those there are on a likely path to crushing it (my son may attend this year).

      My son has started, for the 2nd time (first he had a dozen people he was providing work for and he gave this business to his best friend when my son was 17 yo), a handyman business. He has graduated from UCSB.  He has 5 or 6 regularly working handymen that he provides work.  He has another 4 or 5 occasional people he gives work to.  He has more work than he can handle.   He has enough money saved that he could buy in San Diego and is looking for a good flip or value add house hack.

      My first protege (not current, but worth telling) I met shortly after he reached bottom.  As he tells it he was passed out in some random drug house and thought what the f*** was he doing.  He made the decision for change.  It was not easy.   He had no employment history that was useful.   He started as the janitor/maintenance person at a church as the church was the only place that would give him a chance (he says he had already used up every other chance).   I met him after he had been clean awhile.  I hired him as a part time handyman.   Best handyman I ever had.  He purchased properties, did value adds, extracted investment, repeat (brrrrr).  He is top 10% wealth today.

      My son’s girlfriend and her twin when I met them (when they were 18 or 19 yo) their dad was homeless and their mom in prison.   The girls had experienced homelessness.  Since then the dad died homeless but mom is out of prison and no longer monitored. They were motivated and not victims.   They both graduated from good universities.    They both work multiple jobs (including for my son).   They live in a high B area in San Diego (pt Loma) with my son.   They both believe in the American dream and I suspect they will both achieve it.

      Another one of my protégés (23 yo) is in vet school.   He wants his own vet practice.  I think he will achieve it.

      An ex-protege (22 yo) went to naval nuclear school.  I have not much contact with him (last time he wanted to buy one of my cars but I had already promised that one to my son).  I think he will achieve the American dream.

      These are just some of the young people I encounter of the path to achieving the American dream.  The young people I encounter that do not appear on this path typically lack motivation.   One of my son’s occasional workers worked at various restaurants hoping to get promoted to server.  He recently reached that goal.   Good for him, but should that even be a goal if you goal is the American dream.    This goal is holding him back from other potential opportunities but he does not at this time have the vision to notice this.

      Another ex-protege is a software engineer.  He current works on autonomous drone technology.   He has 4 units (2 in expensive San Diego and 2 in Virginia Beach).  He recently got married and they just started to try to have a child.  Assuming they succeed at having a child, he will achieve the American dream.  I think he is mid 30s.. Last time I met with him, he paid for my lunch.   It was his way of saying he has made it and to say thanks.

      lots of young people are crushing it.   There are also lots who are not.   In general, those not crushing it are not people looking for ways to crush it.   In my examples, I included people who were at the bottom.   My initial protege, homeless in drug house to top 10% er.   

      I found the MTR summit to have too much selling of the program, but if you want to see young people hustling, and some crushing it, there are likely few places that would do better.

      The fact that I see so many young people who are crushing it makes clear that there is a path to the American dream.   The fact that many young people do not see the path or are not motivated enough to execute on such a path does not imply it is on life support.  It would be on life support if I w not to a conference like MTR summit and did not meet young people on the path to crushing it.

      You can let those with victim mentality convince you that the American dream is on life support.  I chose to let the young people that are crushing it enforce the American dream is thriving.   

      Good luck


       For the 100th time, quit using personal examples and look at the mean and median for Gen Z ers.  You keep repeating the same **** .

      Your anecdotal example isn't the mean or median.

      Look at unemployment rates for Gen Z and underemployment. Couple that with student loans and the baseline costs. Without those, your arguments is null. You'll wake up and smell the coffee some rather than cherrypick.

      Don't reply until you specifically state what the unemployment and underemployment is for Gen Z, what their income/rent ratio is, what their average student debt is. This will go nowhere until you understand the macro and stop focusing on the micro.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Henry Clark:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:

       Ok, hunger is absolutely essential to get to the top. My argument is getting in the top 10% isn't normal. America is still where you should be if you're the lion of the jungle.

      My point is the 20%-80% have gotten absolutely decimated America.

      It's not necessarily hunger, or work ethic, or victim mentality. It's options paradox.

      Listen the biggest gripe with these youngsters is just that-- the options paradox.

      They want everything, without sacrificing anything. And then end up with nothing.

      Afraid to get married, afraid to commit to college now, don't trust their doctors, value their therapists and come from divorced families. It's almost a complete 180 from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Why?

      They look around and see what all those previous commitments got them. Their mom is divorced, struggling to retire with health issues.Their Dad is withdrawing from their 401k to pay gambling debt. Their millennial brother has $80k student debt and nearing divorce after being married for 7 years. Their cousin is pill popper after being prescribed anti depressants 20 years ago.

      There's a distrust in the system. Rightfully so. So they're evaluating their options differently; and don't realize without being decisive you can get left in the dust. That's the cost.

      So you see some thrive, most unable to survive, and some collapse. It's a completely different playground than a 90, 00, 10 graduate. 

      What's happened is the baseline of costs have absolutely sky rocketed. If you're not marked to hard assets, and you're not at 22, you are getting eroded away financially. Meanwhile their debt out of the gate has skyrocketed too. 

      So high debt, high cost of living, no assets.

      Back in my day, you paid for college while working, cost of living was basic, no assets. So no debt, basic cost of living, no assets. Tell me how this is the same as the former.

      They are in the hole before they even start, I started just with nothing. Huge difference.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

       I have answered this question previously in this thread.

      The young people at MTR summit (many are Jesse Vasquez followers who have paid for his coaching/mentoring) are using STR/mtr arbitrage. I personally think it is removing the likely best source of return, but I met multiple young people who started this way that are crushing it. I see less young people at BPCon, but those there are on a likely path to crushing it (my son may attend this year).

      My son has started, for the 2nd time (first he had a dozen people he was providing work for and he gave this business to his best friend when my son was 17 yo), a handyman business. He has graduated from UCSB.  He has 5 or 6 regularly working handymen that he provides work.  He has another 4 or 5 occasional people he gives work to.  He has more work than he can handle.   He has enough money saved that he could buy in San Diego and is looking for a good flip or value add house hack.

      My first protege (not current, but worth telling) I met shortly after he reached bottom.  As he tells it he was passed out in some random drug house and thought what the f*** was he doing.  He made the decision for change.  It was not easy.   He had no employment history that was useful.   He started as the janitor/maintenance person at a church as the church was the only place that would give him a chance (he says he had already used up every other chance).   I met him after he had been clean awhile.  I hired him as a part time handyman.   Best handyman I ever had.  He purchased properties, did value adds, extracted investment, repeat (brrrrr).  He is top 10% wealth today.

      My son’s girlfriend and her twin when I met them (when they were 18 or 19 yo) their dad was homeless and their mom in prison.   The girls had experienced homelessness.  Since then the dad died homeless but mom is out of prison and no longer monitored. They were motivated and not victims.   They both graduated from good universities.    They both work multiple jobs (including for my son).   They live in a high B area in San Diego (pt Loma) with my son.   They both believe in the American dream and I suspect they will both achieve it.

      Another one of my protégés (23 yo) is in vet school.   He wants his own vet practice.  I think he will achieve it.

      An ex-protege (22 yo) went to naval nuclear school.  I have not much contact with him (last time he wanted to buy one of my cars but I had already promised that one to my son).  I think he will achieve the American dream.

      These are just some of the young people I encounter of the path to achieving the American dream.  The young people I encounter that do not appear on this path typically lack motivation.   One of my son’s occasional workers worked at various restaurants hoping to get promoted to server.  He recently reached that goal.   Good for him, but should that even be a goal if you goal is the American dream.    This goal is holding him back from other potential opportunities but he does not at this time have the vision to notice this.

      Another ex-protege is a software engineer.  He current works on autonomous drone technology.   He has 4 units (2 in expensive San Diego and 2 in Virginia Beach).  He recently got married and they just started to try to have a child.  Assuming they succeed at having a child, he will achieve the American dream.  I think he is mid 30s.. Last time I met with him, he paid for my lunch.   It was his way of saying he has made it and to say thanks.

      lots of young people are crushing it.   There are also lots who are not.   In general, those not crushing it are not people looking for ways to crush it.   In my examples, I included people who were at the bottom.   My initial protege, homeless in drug house to top 10% er.   

      I found the MTR summit to have too much selling of the program, but if you want to see young people hustling, and some crushing it, there are likely few places that would do better.

      The fact that I see so many young people who are crushing it makes clear that there is a path to the American dream.   The fact that many young people do not see the path or are not motivated enough to execute on such a path does not imply it is on life support.  It would be on life support if I w not to a conference like MTR summit and did not meet young people on the path to crushing it.

      You can let those with victim mentality convince you that the American dream is on life support.  I chose to let the young people that are crushing it enforce the American dream is thriving.   

      Good luck


       For the 100th time, quit using personal examples and look at the mean and median for Gen Z ers.  You keep repeating the same **** .

      Your anecdotal example isn't the mean or median.

      Look at unemployment rates for Gen Z and underemployment. Couple that with student loans and the baseline costs. Without those, your arguments is null. You'll wake up and smell the coffee some rather than cherrypick.

      Don't reply until you specifically state what the unemployment and underemployment is for Gen Z, what their income/rent ratio is, what their average student debt is. This will go nowhere until you understand the macro and stop focusing on the micro.


       >quit using personal examples and look at the mean and median for Gen Z ers. You keep repeating the same

      I keep repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself.  One more time, I do not define the American dream being alive by if the mean or median obtains it.   What defines it to me is that it is obtainable by someone as beaten down as they come.   if a homeless drug addict can reach the American dream then it is far from on life support.  

      If 2 sisters that come from about as broken family (I will add the mom was in prison for something related to these 2 girls when they were very young) as ever existed can be on the path to the American dream then it is far from life support.

      The fact many people do not find the path for various reasons, including the victim mentality that you pontificate, does not indicate that the American dream, as I define it, is dead or on life support.

      So my number of examples demonstrate that my view of the American dream is strong. It only takes a single counter example to disprove a theory (theory being the American dream is dead).  One example of someone very low (such as sleeping in a drug house with only the clothing he was wearing) to achieve financial comfort (he has achieved a lot more than that) disproves the theory.

      If your view of the American dream is different than that it is possible to go from rags (homeless) to financial comfort then I can see how these examples might not help show your definition of the American dream.

      If you want the masses (mean, median, everyone), when so many have victim mentality, poor work ethics, no drive/motivation, to achieve financial comfort then you need to realize you propose someone else lift these people up in spite of themselves.   Socialism, communism, etc has not shown to be very successful.   This is because we need people to want to succeed and if there is little/no reward for success then there is less reason to put forth the effort or take the risks to be successful.

      I think we define American dream being dead (or on life support) differently.   The young people I socialize with will have a very high probability to achieve financial comfort and some of them came from “rags” (homeless).

      I do not plan to respond to another post where your definition of the American dream is that the masses (many with victim mentality) actually achieve it.  If you want to try to state the path to financial comfort does not exist, I already shown it does exist.

      I think the victim mentality you pontificate is detrimental.  It is unmotivating and depressing.    

      Good luck

    • Henry ClarkPro Member
      Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:

       The scenario I suggested was in a better spot than the average grad. 3.2 GPA, $500 cash & $28k in student debt. You're just graduated now what. To your points 

      1. That's a fallacy, the boomers retiring aren't bringing Gen Z up the ranks. It's select millennials and gen Z are gapped due to this underemployment.A 60 year old retiring isn't bringing the 22 year old in, that's long gone due to tech and AI.

      In my specific example of this fresh grad, this isn't a solution. They are on the outside looking in.

      2. Well, those immigrants aren't sitting with $28k debt that grows so doesn't help. These will be solutions to different problems.

      3. So after graduating with $28k in debt, go into trade school? Possible, but now you're more in debt. You got to fight the current here-- that's student debt and you're advantage is time. But you're using it terribly inefficiently by going to college then now trade school?

      Again, no solution here.

      4. Ok, you have no job, $28k in debt, and you're getting a loan you can't afford to pay for closing costs. What's the end game here?

      5. They only have $500, no job, $28k in student loans. How are they buying a trailer now? The goal is to find these incredible opportunities. This isn't it.

      6. Ok, I think we're missing the point.

      7. Same here.

      8. Definitely a viable solution, but this isn't on par with "incredible" opportunity.

      9. Possible, but missing incredible opportunity again.

      10. We're talking kids now? The kid is a kid. 22 year old fresh grad, he's not thinking that. How does this show them all these incredible opportunities.

      11. Now go get nursing degree? Possible, like trade school. But void of this "incredible" opportunity everyone speaks of.

      12. It's not about hunger. It's about understanding optionality, risks, and being intentional. I'll explain in my next post.

      But none of these are incredible opportunities for my 22 year old, fresh grad with a 3.2 gpa, $500 in the bank, $28k in student loans. These are survival tactics not growth ones.


      I’ll approach this several ways.

      1.  There are 8 billion people in the world.  We have 350mm.  If there is enough transport I can get 4 billion here next month.  The American Dream lives.

      2.  Might get this wrong.
      Scenario A. above 22 YO $28k debt $500 in his pocket, 3.2 gpa.  
      Scenario B- 4 year academic scholarship, no debt, Phi Beta Kappa top 1.?% graduating in the U.S., MBA, CPA, largest CPA firm in the world, second largest office in the world. 

      If I was worried about wealth I would pick Scenario A if I knew and was related to someone who knew the “Secret Sauce”.  That’s you right?  The American Dream lives.  I would rather have a medium gpa than a high gpa which sends you down the corporate road and being handcuffed by a high salary.

      3. When I talk with my brother he will say something. Then I will agree with him. He will keep telling me why I'm wrong. Then I will stop him and say hey, I agree with you. VG the world is harder. See my 3 points above. I agree with you. My problem is I believe all obstacles can be overcome no matter how hard. Otherwise I wouldn't do REI. And I believe all people can do the same if they want. Whether that is correct or not. See my first post above. The American Dream lives even if it is 100 times harder. Why??? Rule of law. Property rights. The power of our one vote. Three legs of government and power transition. Bill of rights. Geography- virtually surrounded by water access, unlimited food, unlimited power, only Canada and Mexico bordering,

      4. I believe you are totally out of REI? If so you have made the Risk/Reward decision to do so. All young people and new investors have far more REI tools available than seasoned investors. If they want to overcome the hardships I have mentioned REI is the best path. The American Dream lives especially for young investors. Even kids with GEDs.

      I can have your sons debt paid off in 1 month.  With his degree he might even get a bonus.  He can be a millionaire by 42 doing nothing special.  The American Dream lives.


      It’s your money, you’re right, even if you’re wrong.  I always believe people should make their own financial decisions even if it turns out wrong.  Then learn.  

    • Rental Property Investor · Henrico, VA · Member since 2019 · 265 posts · 155 votes
      1mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

       I've read through this thread and found it initially to be very entertaining and engaging. But then less so as I continued through the pages, with the unnecessary deragotory comments thrown instead of sticking with debating the ideas.

      I didn't see where you, V.G. provided your definition of the American dream, and as a result I think - as one commenter mentioned- people are speaking about two different visions and meanings.  There is the rags to riches, and there is the middle class family with two kids, a stable job, a house and white picket fence. I think many others are speaking about the former, and you V.G. the latter. And, as a result, are speaking past each other.

      On the latter, there are some fundamental issues that stick out for a large percentage of the population, heres one that sticks with me:

      " ...more than half of American workers (55%) cannot cover an unexpected $500 expense from savings. The lack of emergency savings is contributing to significant financial strain with 41% of workers skipping a necessary expense including medical care, food or car repairs during the past six months because they lacked sufficient savings. The findings highlight how vulnerable households remain to financial emergencies."https://finance.yahoo.com/economy/articles/more-half-workers.... That is a huge number and speaks to instability and probably not achieving other basic goals.

      Another point that stuck out to me in reading through this thread was the Affordability index that Calculated Risk produces.  It factors in median income, house prices, mortgage rates, and other factors over time..  

      .

      If the American dream is the ability for a Teacher and another working spouse to have the ability to buy a house, have 2 kids, and feel stable in the middle class, it should be framed that way in my opinion. I actually think, historically anyway, the size and stability of a middle class is what makes the US somewhat unique. Other developing countries can have very wealthy people, they also can have a lot of very poor people, the middle class can be largely missing though. And I think a lot of people, including in the US and abroad that would like to come here, want that, what the middle class

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Alex Forest:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

       I've read through this thread and found it initially to be very entertaining and engaging. But then less so as I continued through the pages, with the unnecessary deragotory comments thrown instead of sticking with debating the ideas.

      I didn't see where you, V.G. provided your definition of the American dream, and as a result I think - as one commenter mentioned- people are speaking about two different visions and meanings.  There is the rags to riches, and there is the middle class family with two kids, a stable job, a house and white picket fence. I think many others are speaking about the former, and you V.G. the latter. And, as a result, are speaking past each other.

      On the latter, there are some fundamental issues that stick out for a large percentage of the population, heres one that sticks with me:

      " ...more than half of American workers (55%) cannot cover an unexpected $500 expense from savings. The lack of emergency savings is contributing to significant financial strain with 41% of workers skipping a necessary expense including medical care, food or car repairs during the past six months because they lacked sufficient savings. The findings highlight how vulnerable households remain to financial emergencies."https://finance.yahoo.com/economy/articles/more-half-workers.... That is a huge number and speaks to instability and probably not achieving other basic goals.

      Another point that stuck out to me in reading through this thread was the Affordability index that Calculated Risk produces.  It factors in median income, house prices, mortgage rates, and other factors over time..  

      .

      If the American dream is the ability for a Teacher and another working spouse to have the ability to buy a house, have 2 kids, and feel stable in the middle class, it should be framed that way in my opinion. I actually think, historically anyway, the size and stability of a middle class is what makes the US somewhat unique. Other developing countries can have very wealthy people, they also can have a lot of very poor people, the middle class can be largely missing though. And I think a lot of people, including in the US and abroad that would like to come here, want that, what the middle class


      The American Dream isn't just about luxury, it’s about efficiency and baseline growth at all levels.

      When a system allows the average person to turn standard labor into real security, the dream is alive.

      When the baseline cost of survival becomes so congested that normal effort no longer yields normal stability, that same dream becomes a statistical anomaly reserved for the top percentage. Everything in America operates on a hyper-scale. A rags to riches story here looks completely different than it does in a country like India, but it definitely exists. But the true benchmark of the American Dream is the median point: the baseline promise that each generation should be slightly better off than the last, not decisively worse. Immigrants flock here because our economic ceiling is completely unrivaled. If you opened the doors to billions around the world, they’d flood in tomorrow. But pointing to an attractive ceiling isn't proof that the system is healthy, it just proves people are fleeing far worse floors. When the baseline floor of normal, everyday life in America becomes insufferable for the average person, saying people still want to move here doesn't mean the dream is thriving, it just means the floor elsewhere is worse. But relatively speaking to previous times, our floor is worse too.
    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Henry Clark:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:

       The scenario I suggested was in a better spot than the average grad. 3.2 GPA, $500 cash & $28k in student debt. You're just graduated now what. To your points 

      1. That's a fallacy, the boomers retiring aren't bringing Gen Z up the ranks. It's select millennials and gen Z are gapped due to this underemployment.A 60 year old retiring isn't bringing the 22 year old in, that's long gone due to tech and AI.

      In my specific example of this fresh grad, this isn't a solution. They are on the outside looking in.

      2. Well, those immigrants aren't sitting with $28k debt that grows so doesn't help. These will be solutions to different problems.

      3. So after graduating with $28k in debt, go into trade school? Possible, but now you're more in debt. You got to fight the current here-- that's student debt and you're advantage is time. But you're using it terribly inefficiently by going to college then now trade school?

      Again, no solution here.

      4. Ok, you have no job, $28k in debt, and you're getting a loan you can't afford to pay for closing costs. What's the end game here?

      5. They only have $500, no job, $28k in student loans. How are they buying a trailer now? The goal is to find these incredible opportunities. This isn't it.

      6. Ok, I think we're missing the point.

      7. Same here.

      8. Definitely a viable solution, but this isn't on par with "incredible" opportunity.

      9. Possible, but missing incredible opportunity again.

      10. We're talking kids now? The kid is a kid. 22 year old fresh grad, he's not thinking that. How does this show them all these incredible opportunities.

      11. Now go get nursing degree? Possible, like trade school. But void of this "incredible" opportunity everyone speaks of.

      12. It's not about hunger. It's about understanding optionality, risks, and being intentional. I'll explain in my next post.

      But none of these are incredible opportunities for my 22 year old, fresh grad with a 3.2 gpa, $500 in the bank, $28k in student loans. These are survival tactics not growth ones.


      I’ll approach this several ways.

      1.  There are 8 billion people in the world.  We have 350mm.  If there is enough transport I can get 4 billion here next month.  The American Dream lives.

      2.  Might get this wrong.
      Scenario A. above 22 YO $28k debt $500 in his pocket, 3.2 gpa.  
      Scenario B- 4 year academic scholarship, no debt, Phi Beta Kappa top 1.?% graduating in the U.S., MBA, CPA, largest CPA firm in the world, second largest office in the world. 

      If I was worried about wealth I would pick Scenario A if I knew and was related to someone who knew the “Secret Sauce”.  That’s you right?  The American Dream lives.  I would rather have a medium gpa than a high gpa which sends you down the corporate road and being handcuffed by a high salary.

      3. When I talk with my brother he will say something. Then I will agree with him. He will keep telling me why I'm wrong. Then I will stop him and say hey, I agree with you. VG the world is harder. See my 3 points above. I agree with you. My problem is I believe all obstacles can be overcome no matter how hard. Otherwise I wouldn't do REI. And I believe all people can do the same if they want. Whether that is correct or not. See my first post above. The American Dream lives even if it is 100 times harder. Why??? Rule of law. Property rights. The power of our one vote. Three legs of government and power transition. Bill of rights. Geography- virtually surrounded by water access, unlimited food, unlimited power, only Canada and Mexico bordering,

      4. I believe you are totally out of REI? If so you have made the Risk/Reward decision to do so. All young people and new investors have far more REI tools available than seasoned investors. If they want to overcome the hardships I have mentioned REI is the best path. The American Dream lives especially for young investors. Even kids with GEDs.

      I can have your sons debt paid off in 1 month.  With his degree he might even get a bonus.  He can be a millionaire by 42 doing nothing special.  The American Dream lives.


      It’s your money, you’re right, even if you’re wrong.  I always believe people should make their own financial decisions even if it turns out wrong.  Then learn.  


       It's not my son, it's just a generic example & hypothetical. And I still have not found a viable solution on how his starting off point is superior to previous generations, and it's particularly sad to hear that his situation is better than most of this generation. Put those together, and you'll see how the "dream" is dying.

      Just because everyone in the world wants to be here doesn't mean the dream isn't getting harder, worse, or not dying. It just means their environments are still (comparably) worse, and we'd all agree on that.

      America is the best. America today versus America prior though, that's the argument, and it's definitively harder. We both agree on that.

      My whole point is the dream is dying, and it's on it's last leg. Clearly, you agree it's harder-- you may not agree it's on it's last leg or dying, but you do agree it's harder. Pretty much in agreement with me. 

      To understand my point though, and can circle back to the top. 

      1)How is this hypothetical guy's situation superior than generation's past? 

      I don't see his situation as "better" or more "promising". I would say it's definitely worst. The fact that our youth come out stuck in a hole shows me the dream is dying. It doesn't mean every one of them cannot succeed, it just means the floor has been raised. That's due to a variety of reasons-- dollar going down, more debt instruments being leveraged, international competition, etc. 

      2) How is the median individual in America's situation better than generation's past?

      I don't see how it is. If we want to take it an extreme and say if you're going to tell me 30 years ago the homeless didn't have cell phones & a dog, now they do. Sure, you're right. 

      But a guy making $100k 30 years ago could support a family of 4 with their own house, now they've got student debt instead of a house, no family, and are living paycheck to paycheck.

      Where is this dream going, it's strictly going to the top. The top 1% live better than ever before. Before, they'd buy 1st class now they fly private. Before they would be in a neighborhood with other successful folks zoned to the best public school, now they're in a neighborhood with other billionaires and off-shore private schools or a hired team to teach their kids.

      We're seeing bifurcation, less K now more I. Money goes up. If you aren't hard-asset backed, or inherited it, or nepo, you're literally drowning. 

      If you make it out, you're the outlier. The outlier in previous generations use to be the norm. The dream is on it's last leg.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      1mo
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Scott Bowles:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @David Graham:

      @V.G Jason 

      Two things can be true: 1) The dream is not dead, but further away 2) People, especially younger generations, don't have the work ethic or discipline to save enough for down payments.

      People prefer to buy the $80,000 truck with a $1K monthly car payment and go on expensive vacations rather than save for a down payment. Eating out with friends and buying stuff they don't need provides instant gratification, rather than saving. Student loans are a problem, but they should never be forgiven. Everyone took them knowing they are a loan, but what should be fixed are the predatory interest rates that the banks are charging on those loans.

      Do I agree that prices have outpaced income? Absolutely! But people have to look in the mirror and work for something instead of holding out their hands and hoping someone will simply give them what they want.

      The dream is absolutely on its last leg.

      It's not a work ethic issue, it's a realization issue.

      When they've been pressured to go to college, and walk out with $50k student loan debt that recycles and can actually increase. It's a distrust in the system.

      When they've been told to get married cause its the normal thing to do, but divorce rates are 2 in every 3. Then lose half their stuff. And the one lone couple the divorce is becoming imminent. It's a distrust in the system.

      When an omelette at a hotel costs $35, you distrust the system.

      When you jump into SWE because it's what you've been told by the Mark Cubans, and other billionaires of society, only to graduate into roles where AI has replaced them. You distrust the system.

      Kids now are far more understanding. You want me to work more, for more dollars while you get the equity. And while my dollar is dying. Why would I work more? That negligible difference gets me a vacation, barely. Definitely not a house.

      The spending looks bad on paper, and logic questionable but relatable; an $80k down payment is mathematically out of reach, so they maximize the $7k they actually have on a vacation. It’s an exercise in alternative gratification, and yes instant. It’s a fast solution to a slow, structural problem, and it's something older generations completely fail to grasp. Even myself fully.

      But I sympathize it isn't that young people prefer a $7k vacation over a house; it’s that a $7k vacation is achievable, while an $80k down payment is mathematically impossible. They are rationally opting for the highest accessible utility.



       Thanks for a fresh take, I feel like if you don't see decreasing opportunity for our kids you fail to understand basic math. Old people complaining about kids not having a work ethic is a cliche for a reason I suppose.


      There is not any 'decreasing opportunity', C'mon man, wake up. There is not a better place on this planet to become whatever you want to be. There is so much more opportunity than when I was growing up ('70s and 80s). You can literally do anything now....

      People have gotten entitled and lazy. That's the problem, plain and simple....


       Median family wage 1975: $13,179 

      Median home 1975: $38,500

      Median family income 2026: $89,000

      Median home 2026: $410,700 

      So it took 2.92 years of the median salary to equal the cost of a house in 1975, in 2026 it takes 4.61 years and the trend line is getting worse. I am doing fine but if, and its a big if, you can do basic math you can recognize that mathematically opportunity is decreasing. Recognizing that does not mean no one will be successful or work ethic is not important. I can understand why a 20 year old would not be pumped for a low wage job now though and that's before we get into AI and entry level professional work. Again I think its pretty tired out complaining about the kids and how this generation just does not have the same work ethic. Of course implicit in this complaint is the aggrandizement of ones own unmatchable work ethic, which is also hilarious lol. 

      Everyone parades out that statistic. It is only one way to look at it. Just because it takes X amount more salary to buy a house means nothing...it's such a weak argument you guys use.

      Think about it a little....are there no other factors involved in that? Meaning the premise that because it takes more salary to buy a house, that the American Dream is Dead.

      It does nothing to address the OP's question ('Is the American Dream Dead'). Just because it takes more X to buy X means nothing. It could take 10X more and the Dream could still be thriving.

      But I will agree that it is too easy for some of us to just keep saying that today's younger generations are entitled, lazy, etc.....that dismisses the real problems too easily.


       The American Dream is a nebulous concept so no I would not necessarily say it is dead. I would say opportunity is decreasing and I think not at least recognizing that you and me had it easier then our kids will is kind of willfully ignorant at best and not a great trajectory for our country to be going.

       You're talking to folks that function in life as if their experiences and views is everyone's. 

      And if I did it, I know why you can't do it as good as me, but you should be able to do some of it.

      Lots of people like Bruce, Dan, and JD just haven't operated in society beyond their scope. They use their own examples as a basis. Should tell you everything. 

      If anything, my experiences in life should be in a state of extreme arrogance over this generation. 

      But if anything, my success has given me a reason to reflect.

      They need to see the folks in other generations in the mean & median ranges. Not isolated examples, not their examples of when they were that age.

      We can argue all we want on this until some of these ignorant folks give me a tangible example on creating upside it's all grade D ********.

      Bruce stepped it when pressed. That should've sealed it, instead he keeps trekking with **** on his boots. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but again beneficiary of his generation. Would be a huge flop in today's society.


       I think we have different definition of the American dream.   My definition is rags to riches is still possible.

      My definition has little to do with what the masses do.   All your data is what success (or lack of success) means he masses have.

      But I meet people all the time that have gone from rag to riches.  True miracles, but show rags to riches is possible.

      My initial protege went from drug house to 10%.   My son’s girlfriend and her twin sister (23 years old) went from homeless to a good life and still working hard to obtain the great life.

      I meet various young people at various conferences (MTR summit was perhaps the best example but the founder has a following similar to pace Moresby’s) that are motivated and on their way to obtain great wealth.  

      When I had a w2, I met young people on their way to great financial success.

      These young people I encounter prove to me that the American dream is still going strong.

      If you do not encounter similar young people it may leave you to decide the American dream is dead due to a large number of young people who are financially struggling.   I know there are opportunities for these young people as I see young people finding and executing on these opportunities.

      Rags to riches is still available albeit significantly harder. We'll get to that later. The mean/median lifestyle has been destroyed. Both things can be true.

      I don't care what specific people you met. I'm specifically talking median and means of this next generation; they're worse off and it's not really a debate. 

      Still waiting to hear the solution on getting to the riches and all this incredible opportunity available from the starting point I gave. I got sideways commentary and being a waiter in Scottsdale. Waiting for you, JD, and anyone who disagrees to show me how you get there.

       I have answered this question previously in this thread.

      The young people at MTR summit (many are Jesse Vasquez followers who have paid for his coaching/mentoring) are using STR/mtr arbitrage. I personally think it is removing the likely best source of return, but I met multiple young people who started this way that are crushing it. I see less young people at BPCon, but those there are on a likely path to crushing it (my son may attend this year).

      My son has started, for the 2nd time (first he had a dozen people he was providing work for and he gave this business to his best friend when my son was 17 yo), a handyman business. He has graduated from UCSB.  He has 5 or 6 regularly working handymen that he provides work.  He has another 4 or 5 occasional people he gives work to.  He has more work than he can handle.   He has enough money saved that he could buy in San Diego and is looking for a good flip or value add house hack.

      My first protege (not current, but worth telling) I met shortly after he reached bottom.  As he tells it he was passed out in some random drug house and thought what the f*** was he doing.  He made the decision for change.  It was not easy.   He had no employment history that was useful.   He started as the janitor/maintenance person at a church as the church was the only place that would give him a chance (he says he had already used up every other chance).   I met him after he had been clean awhile.  I hired him as a part time handyman.   Best handyman I ever had.  He purchased properties, did value adds, extracted investment, repeat (brrrrr).  He is top 10% wealth today.

      My son’s girlfriend and her twin when I met them (when they were 18 or 19 yo) their dad was homeless and their mom in prison.   The girls had experienced homelessness.  Since then the dad died homeless but mom is out of prison and no longer monitored. They were motivated and not victims.   They both graduated from good universities.    They both work multiple jobs (including for my son).   They live in a high B area in San Diego (pt Loma) with my son.   They both believe in the American dream and I suspect they will both achieve it.

      Another one of my protégés (23 yo) is in vet school.   He wants his own vet practice.  I think he will achieve it.

      An ex-protege (22 yo) went to naval nuclear school.  I have not much contact with him (last time he wanted to buy one of my cars but I had already promised that one to my son).  I think he will achieve the American dream.

      These are just some of the young people I encounter of the path to achieving the American dream.  The young people I encounter that do not appear on this path typically lack motivation.   One of my son’s occasional workers worked at various restaurants hoping to get promoted to server.  He recently reached that goal.   Good for him, but should that even be a goal if you goal is the American dream.    This goal is holding him back from other potential opportunities but he does not at this time have the vision to notice this.

      Another ex-protege is a software engineer.  He current works on autonomous drone technology.   He has 4 units (2 in expensive San Diego and 2 in Virginia Beach).  He recently got married and they just started to try to have a child.  Assuming they succeed at having a child, he will achieve the American dream.  I think he is mid 30s.. Last time I met with him, he paid for my lunch.   It was his way of saying he has made it and to say thanks.

      lots of young people are crushing it.   There are also lots who are not.   In general, those not crushing it are not people looking for ways to crush it.   In my examples, I included people who were at the bottom.   My initial protege, homeless in drug house to top 10% er.   

      I found the MTR summit to have too much selling of the program, but if you want to see young people hustling, and some crushing it, there are likely few places that would do better.

      The fact that I see so many young people who are crushing it makes clear that there is a path to the American dream.   The fact that many young people do not see the path or are not motivated enough to execute on such a path does not imply it is on life support.  It would be on life support if I w not to a conference like MTR summit and did not meet young people on the path to crushing it.

      You can let those with victim mentality convince you that the American dream is on life support.  I chose to let the young people that are crushing it enforce the American dream is thriving.   

      Good luck


       For the 100th time, quit using personal examples and look at the mean and median for Gen Z ers.  You keep repeating the same **** .

      Your anecdotal example isn't the mean or median.

      Look at unemployment rates for Gen Z and underemployment. Couple that with student loans and the baseline costs. Without those, your arguments is null. You'll wake up and smell the coffee some rather than cherrypick.

      Don't reply until you specifically state what the unemployment and underemployment is for Gen Z, what their income/rent ratio is, what their average student debt is. This will go nowhere until you understand the macro and stop focusing on the micro.


       >quit using personal examples and look at the mean and median for Gen Z ers. You keep repeating the same

      I keep repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself.  One more time, I do not define the American dream being alive by if the mean or median obtains it.   What defines it to me is that it is obtainable by someone as beaten down as they come.   if a homeless drug addict can reach the American dream then it is far from on life support.  

      If 2 sisters that come from about as broken family (I will add the mom was in prison for something related to these 2 girls when they were very young) as ever existed can be on the path to the American dream then it is far from life support.

      The fact many people do not find the path for various reasons, including the victim mentality that you pontificate, does not indicate that the American dream, as I define it, is dead or on life support.

      So my number of examples demonstrate that my view of the American dream is strong. It only takes a single counter example to disprove a theory (theory being the American dream is dead).  One example of someone very low (such as sleeping in a drug house with only the clothing he was wearing) to achieve financial comfort (he has achieved a lot more than that) disproves the theory.

      If your view of the American dream is different than that it is possible to go from rags (homeless) to financial comfort then I can see how these examples might not help show your definition of the American dream.

      If you want the masses (mean, median, everyone), when so many have victim mentality, poor work ethics, no drive/motivation, to achieve financial comfort then you need to realize you propose someone else lift these people up in spite of themselves.   Socialism, communism, etc has not shown to be very successful.   This is because we need people to want to succeed and if there is little/no reward for success then there is less reason to put forth the effort or take the risks to be successful.

      I think we define American dream being dead (or on life support) differently.   The young people I socialize with will have a very high probability to achieve financial comfort and some of them came from “rags” (homeless).

      I do not plan to respond to another post where your definition of the American dream is that the masses (many with victim mentality) actually achieve it.  If you want to try to state the path to financial comfort does not exist, I already shown it does exist.

      I think the victim mentality you pontificate is detrimental.  It is unmotivating and depressing.    

      Good luck


      The cream of the crop will rise in any environment--capitalist, feudalist, or otherwise.

      That’s why they’re the cream of the crop. Pointing to a single outlier who made it out of a drug house doesn't prove the system is healthy; it just proves human resilience exists. 

      Under your very same logic, if one person escapes North Korea--then the system there must be thriving.

      Second, let's clear up the strawman; pointing out economic realities isn't socialism or victim mentality-- it's just math.

      What made America uniquely great wasn't just a high ceiling; it was that our floor used to be other countries' ceilings.

      In the past: Go to college, land a stable job, get married, and buy a 3-4 bedroom house on a single or median income. You had low/no debt, a low baseline cost of living, and an accessible path to hard assets. And a white picket fence!

      Now:  Go to college, face record high underemployment, keep the non-dischargeable debt, delay marriage, and share a 2-bedroom apartment or live with your parents until 30. High debt, insufferable cost of living, no assets.

        The ceiling in America has vaulted higher than ever, but the median floor has been completely hollowed out.

        If your definition of a successful society requires someone to perform a statistical miracle just to achieve what used to be a standard middle-class life, you aren't defending the American Dream--you're defining outliers and if anything proving my point.

        Right now, the success stories you're pointing to would have landed someone in the top 3–5% in years past. Today, that same Herculean effort barely gets them into the top 20–30%. That is how far the baseline has collapsed.

        Show me the mean and the median, and I’ll show you where the system is failing.

    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      2mo

      To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

      But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

      But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

      Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

        To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

        But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

        But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

        Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

         Ok, show me it then.


        You're 22, graduated from UA, $28k in student debt, $500 cash in the bank, 3.2 GPA. You can pick the major. Live in Phoenix.

        You're not a nepo baby. How do you move?

        All your previous attempts were not worthy.

        Show me this insane opportunity. You're talking like Bezos, telling folks what they want to hear. In his case, he's saying that while fully monopolizing.

        There's insane opportunity for folks like me. Even though I'm "retired". But for that 22 year old, show me it.

      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

        To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

        But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

        But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

        Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

         Ok, show me it then.


        You're 22, graduated from UA, $28k in student debt, $500 cash in the bank, 3.2 GPA. You can pick the major. Live in Phoenix.

        You're not a nepo baby. How do you move?

        All your previous attempts were not worthy.

        Show me this insane opportunity. You're talking like Bezos, telling folks what they want to hear. In his case, he's saying that while fully monopolizing.

        There's insane opportunity for folks like me. Even though I'm "retired". But for that 22 year old, show me it.

        Man, you are a downer......
        Okay I'll bite....22-year-old buys a used truck and some tools or equipment. Goes to work as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, pool cleaner, you name it. 
        Lives on the outskirts of Phoenix maybe just west of Surprise for $1, 200 to1500 a month. Socks away $50,000 in 2 years, down payment on a duplex. Game over. 

        are comes up with $10,000 and opens a small retail space... that's enough to start a lease and get some inventory. Maybe a good barbecue place? 

        Or get into the emerging AI field at the bottom.

        Or Chips, start low and become a stockholding manager in a few years. 

        Waiter at a high-end Scottsdale restaurant...

        Or.......
      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

        To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

        But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

        But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

        Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

         Ok, show me it then.


        You're 22, graduated from UA, $28k in student debt, $500 cash in the bank, 3.2 GPA. You can pick the major. Live in Phoenix.

        You're not a nepo baby. How do you move?

        All your previous attempts were not worthy.

        Show me this insane opportunity. You're talking like Bezos, telling folks what they want to hear. In his case, he's saying that while fully monopolizing.

        There's insane opportunity for folks like me. Even though I'm "retired". But for that 22 year old, show me it.

        Man, you are a downer......
        Okay I'll bite....22-year-old buys a used truck and some tools or equipment. Goes to work as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, pool cleaner, you name it. 
        Lives on the outskirts of Phoenix maybe just west of Surprise for $1, 200 to1500 a month. Socks away $50,000 in 2 years, down payment on a duplex. Game over. 

        are comes up with $10,000 and opens a small retail space... that's enough to start a lease and get some inventory. Maybe a good barbecue place? 

        Or get into the emerging AI field at the bottom.

        Or Chips, start low and become a stockholding manager in a few years. 

        Waiter at a high-end Scottsdale restaurant...

        Or.......

         Ok, what part of this is an insane opportunity?

        This is tone deaf at it's peak.

        First year salary $50k. Rent $15k, Student Loans $4k, Taxes $14k. Before groceries, gas, insurance and utilities we're looking at $17k left. 

        Yet he's supposed to pocket $25k annually in pure savings for that duplex.

        I love the well come up with $10k idea. Brother, these guys can't even find $500 of cash after basic living expenses on a monthly basis. $10k is jackpot money.

        A waiter in Scottsdale-- higher variable income and higher fixed costs? Seems like the spread trade you need to avoid when starting out.

        Get into emerging AI field when nobody is hiring? Are you looking around, whose hiring entry level in AI-specific fields I am talking LMs, compute, chips, etc.

        This is a grueling survival plan not an insane opportunity.

        Touch some grass, these kids coming out have had things absolutely squeezed.

      • Investor · Bridgeville, PA · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 15 votes
        2mo

         I've lived this. I'm in my low 30s and started with a $45K per year salary in Pittsburgh in 2018. Shared a higher end two bedroom apartment, paying ~$900 per month for my half of the rent. I drove a paid off 2012 Chevrolet with 130K+ miles.

        I wasn't able to save much, but was able to buy a $225K house in 2021 with 20% down after saving everything I could over those few years. I split my housing expense with a roommate and have since acquired multiple additional properties. 

        I also worked my *** off to get from the base level to a management position in my company during that time. So yes, it's very doable.

        And to @Bruce Woodruff point, blue collar jobs are in very high demand will likely produce countless millionaires for those willing to put in the work to replace the baby boomers that are nearing retirement. Gen Z just refuses to take those positions because of the optics of being a plumber or an electrician. 

      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

        To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

        But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

        But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

        Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

         Ok, show me it then.


        You're 22, graduated from UA, $28k in student debt, $500 cash in the bank, 3.2 GPA. You can pick the major. Live in Phoenix.

        You're not a nepo baby. How do you move?

        All your previous attempts were not worthy.

        Show me this insane opportunity. You're talking like Bezos, telling folks what they want to hear. In his case, he's saying that while fully monopolizing.

        There's insane opportunity for folks like me. Even though I'm "retired". But for that 22 year old, show me it.

        Man, you are a downer......
        Okay I'll bite....22-year-old buys a used truck and some tools or equipment. Goes to work as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, pool cleaner, you name it. 
        Lives on the outskirts of Phoenix maybe just west of Surprise for $1, 200 to1500 a month. Socks away $50,000 in 2 years, down payment on a duplex. Game over. 

        are comes up with $10,000 and opens a small retail space... that's enough to start a lease and get some inventory. Maybe a good barbecue place? 

        Or get into the emerging AI field at the bottom.

        Or Chips, start low and become a stockholding manager in a few years. 

        Waiter at a high-end Scottsdale restaurant...

        Or.......

         Ok, what part of this is an insane opportunity?

        This is tone deaf at it's peak.

        First year salary $50k. Rent $15k, Student Loans $4k, Taxes $14k. Before groceries, gas, insurance and utilities we're looking at $17k left. 

        Yet he's supposed to pocket $25k annually in pure savings for that duplex.

        I love the well come up with $10k idea. Brother, these guys can't even find $500 of cash after basic living expenses on a monthly basis. $10k is jackpot money.

        A waiter in Scottsdale-- higher variable income and higher fixed costs? Seems like the spread trade you need to avoid when starting out.

        Get into emerging AI field when nobody is hiring? Are you looking around, whose hiring entry level in AI-specific fields I am talking LMs, compute, chips, etc.

        This is a grueling survival plan not an insane opportunity.

        Touch some grass, these kids coming out have had things absolutely squeezed.

        Those are all solid ways to make a decent living and eventually purchase a house in a decent area of Phoenix. And in most areas of the country. 

        If you choose to look at this issue through your obviously negative filters, then of course nothing is going to work. I mean I think you are just screwing with us for fun right? Nobody could see zero opportunities the way you do....

        At least I'm trying to offer possibilities and positive outcomes. But you do you.



      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

        To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

        But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

        But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

        Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

         Ok, show me it then.


        You're 22, graduated from UA, $28k in student debt, $500 cash in the bank, 3.2 GPA. You can pick the major. Live in Phoenix.

        You're not a nepo baby. How do you move?

        All your previous attempts were not worthy.

        Show me this insane opportunity. You're talking like Bezos, telling folks what they want to hear. In his case, he's saying that while fully monopolizing.

        There's insane opportunity for folks like me. Even though I'm "retired". But for that 22 year old, show me it.

        Man, you are a downer......
        Okay I'll bite....22-year-old buys a used truck and some tools or equipment. Goes to work as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, pool cleaner, you name it. 
        Lives on the outskirts of Phoenix maybe just west of Surprise for $1, 200 to1500 a month. Socks away $50,000 in 2 years, down payment on a duplex. Game over. 

        are comes up with $10,000 and opens a small retail space... that's enough to start a lease and get some inventory. Maybe a good barbecue place? 

        Or get into the emerging AI field at the bottom.

        Or Chips, start low and become a stockholding manager in a few years. 

        Waiter at a high-end Scottsdale restaurant...

        Or.......

         Ok, what part of this is an insane opportunity?

        This is tone deaf at it's peak.

        First year salary $50k. Rent $15k, Student Loans $4k, Taxes $14k. Before groceries, gas, insurance and utilities we're looking at $17k left. 

        Yet he's supposed to pocket $25k annually in pure savings for that duplex.

        I love the well come up with $10k idea. Brother, these guys can't even find $500 of cash after basic living expenses on a monthly basis. $10k is jackpot money.

        A waiter in Scottsdale-- higher variable income and higher fixed costs? Seems like the spread trade you need to avoid when starting out.

        Get into emerging AI field when nobody is hiring? Are you looking around, whose hiring entry level in AI-specific fields I am talking LMs, compute, chips, etc.

        This is a grueling survival plan not an insane opportunity.

        Touch some grass, these kids coming out have had things absolutely squeezed.

        Those are all solid ways to make a decent living and eventually purchase a house in a decent area of Phoenix. And in most areas of the country. 

        If you choose to look at this issue through your obviously negative filters, then of course nothing is going to work. I mean I think you are just screwing with us for fun right? Nobody could see zero opportunities the way you do....

        At least I'm trying to offer possibilities and positive outcomes. But you do you.



        Again, let's not confuse negativity with realistic. And please, none of your examples proved your point. If anything, it enforced mine.

        I never said zero opportunities -- I said on its last leg. I've mentioned international opportunities, as in not the American dream.

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @David Graham:

         I've lived this. I'm in my low 30s and started with a $45K per year salary in Pittsburgh in 2018. Shared a higher end two bedroom apartment, paying ~$900 per month for my half of the rent. I drove a paid off 2012 Chevrolet with 130K+ miles.

        I wasn't able to save much, but was able to buy a $225K house in 2021 with 20% down after saving everything I could over those few years. I split my housing expense with a roommate and have since acquired multiple additional properties. 

        I also worked my *** off to get from the base level to a management position in my company during that time. So yes, it's very doable.

        And to @Bruce Woodruff point, blue collar jobs are in very high demand will likely produce countless millionaires for those willing to put in the work to replace the baby boomers that are nearing retirement. Gen Z just refuses to take those positions because of the optics of being a plumber or an electrician. 


         First, good for you. I won't take away from it but let's talk about some realities.

        That $225k house is worth what now? That $45k salary is paying what now?

      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

        To say that 'the dream is dead' is a lousy way to look at today's reality. I will agree that things have changed (obviously), so one might truthfully say that 'the old dream is dead'.

        But - there is always a new dream. And ways to pull a work-around on the current situation.....

        But...there is still an insane amount of opportunity here in the USA.

        Just as the 'old dream' has changed it's rules, so must today's younger people change their outlook and strategies.

         Ok, show me it then.


        You're 22, graduated from UA, $28k in student debt, $500 cash in the bank, 3.2 GPA. You can pick the major. Live in Phoenix.

        You're not a nepo baby. How do you move?

        All your previous attempts were not worthy.

        Show me this insane opportunity. You're talking like Bezos, telling folks what they want to hear. In his case, he's saying that while fully monopolizing.

        There's insane opportunity for folks like me. Even though I'm "retired". But for that 22 year old, show me it.

        Man, you are a downer......
        Okay I'll bite....22-year-old buys a used truck and some tools or equipment. Goes to work as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, pool cleaner, you name it. 
        Lives on the outskirts of Phoenix maybe just west of Surprise for $1, 200 to1500 a month. Socks away $50,000 in 2 years, down payment on a duplex. Game over. 

        are comes up with $10,000 and opens a small retail space... that's enough to start a lease and get some inventory. Maybe a good barbecue place? 

        Or get into the emerging AI field at the bottom.

        Or Chips, start low and become a stockholding manager in a few years. 

        Waiter at a high-end Scottsdale restaurant...

        Or.......

         Ok, what part of this is an insane opportunity?

        This is tone deaf at it's peak.

        First year salary $50k. Rent $15k, Student Loans $4k, Taxes $14k. Before groceries, gas, insurance and utilities we're looking at $17k left. 

        Yet he's supposed to pocket $25k annually in pure savings for that duplex.

        I love the well come up with $10k idea. Brother, these guys can't even find $500 of cash after basic living expenses on a monthly basis. $10k is jackpot money.

        A waiter in Scottsdale-- higher variable income and higher fixed costs? Seems like the spread trade you need to avoid when starting out.

        Get into emerging AI field when nobody is hiring? Are you looking around, whose hiring entry level in AI-specific fields I am talking LMs, compute, chips, etc.

        This is a grueling survival plan not an insane opportunity.

        Touch some grass, these kids coming out have had things absolutely squeezed.

        Those are all solid ways to make a decent living and eventually purchase a house in a decent area of Phoenix. And in most areas of the country. 

        If you choose to look at this issue through your obviously negative filters, then of course nothing is going to work. I mean I think you are just screwing with us for fun right? Nobody could see zero opportunities the way you do....

        At least I'm trying to offer possibilities and positive outcomes. But you do you.



        Again, let's not confuse negativity with realistic. And please, none of your examples proved your point. If anything, it enforced mine.

        I never said zero opportunities -- I said on its last leg. I've mentioned international opportunities, as in not the American dream.

        Well, we'll have to do that old 'agree to disagree' thing then....
    • Garrett CrosbyPro Member
      Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, United States · Member since 2021 · 392 posts · 162 votes
      2mo

      I'm a real estate agent in LA, so I live this conversation daily. The dream isn't dead - but it's been seriously repriced, and that shift is permanent for a lot of people.

      What I see on the ground: clients who did everything "right" - saved, got good jobs, built credit - and still can't make the math work to buy in the market they live in. That's new. For most of my career, hard work eventually got you to homeownership in most U.S. cities. That's no longer true in a growing number of places.

      The structural points in this post are real. The rate lock-in effect alone has created a frozen inventory problem that doesn't go away even if rates drop. If rates go to 5.5%, you'll see some homeowners move. But the people locked in at 2.75% and 3%? They're not selling for a very long time. That supply isn't coming back.

      From an investor standpoint: I think this is one of the clearest long-term arguments for owning rental properties I've seen in my career. Demand for quality rentals isn't softening - the renter pool is growing with people who would have bought 10 years ago. That's a fundamental shift.

      The dream isn't dead. It's just moved - out of state, into different asset classes, into different strategies. The people I see building real wealth right now are the ones who adapted, not the ones waiting for 2019 to come back.

    • John MorganPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
      2mo

      We're in the perfect storm to become and remain a renter nation for at least the next decade or two. I have 39 SFR and target C to C+ class neighborhoods and rentals. These working class people will most likely never be able to afford or qualify to buy a home. So I rarely ever have turnovers which saves me a lot of money. Turnovers within 3 or 4 years crush profits with make readies, then a 1 or 2 month vacancy. So that's why I target the working class and focus on cheaper more affordable housing. I want my tenants to stay for a decade or two. I tell them all they can stay forever. lol. My homes seem to appreciate better too due to a much lower supply of starter homes. Builders haven't been building affordable starter homes for the last 20 years for obvious reasons. So my rentals are in very high demand, and I keep my rent below market rent so my tenants won't move to a cheaper place. There aren't many cheaper places and I treat them well. I'm lenient on late payments and work with them during hard times. This all helps keep my turnovers low which saves me a lot of $. And demand for rentals will remain very strong due to lack of building permits and the nation already 4-5 million homes short. This is why I'm bullish on buy n holds.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      2mo
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Theresa Harris:
      Quote from @V.G Jason:
      Quote from @Theresa Harris:

      Yes house prices have gone up, but so have salaries as well as expectations of what people need (many are wants).  There is also a growing number of people who don't want the responsibility of owning homes and would rather rent (which depending on their income when they retire, may cause a lot of problems).  You can't have everything and you aren't going to start with a home that your parents worked 25+ years to get. Choices have consequences-want a new car every 3-5 years, a vacation to a tropical destination, dinner/lunch out 3x a week, etc....then those are your choices and it will be really hard to get ahead and save the down payment for a home.

      Rates of 6.5% are pretty much the norm.  The low rates from 5-15 years ago were NOT normal (nor were the high rates in the late 1980s). You hear the same story in other countries.

      Shiloh summed it up beautifully. "You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work."

      When rates were 6.5% back in 90s, the ratio was about 3.75x for housing and median income. It's now 5.2x.  That's just housing. 

      College? 7% then now 15%
      Utilities? 5% now 7%
      Groceries are surprisingly equal.

      Wages grew 13% over 30Y. Housing 70%, cars 40%, Tuition 110%. And we're saying it's the same chase.

      I've already provided tons of info on how to navigate into the future. But anyone saying it's still alive & well, stop complaining is tone deaf.

       Mortgage rates in the late 1980s were double digit.


      When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

      Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

      My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.

       I have seen the data that show he 1980s had less affordable home purchases nationally than today by quite a margin.  So where the disconnect.

      I started by internet search of worse interest rates in the 1980s and it returned 18.63% in Oct 1981.  That is significantly more than 14%.

      Median home price in 1980 was $64,600.  Today $408,800.   So your numbers were close to my internet results.

      Today’s median income $83,730, 1980 provided a range in the response that your $20k number was in the upper part of the range.

      Then I placed your numbers into my mortgage calculator.

      1980s: $650/month at 90% LTV. 39% of households income

      Today: $2389/month at 90% LTV.. 35.83%.

      39% is more than 36%.  So using your numbers your statement is wrong.

      Now use 18.63% is $856/month at 90% LTV. 51.36% of household income. Needless to say 51% of household income is substantially greater than 36%.

      As for these jobs that you say it is hard to find one job.  The gig economy has jobs for virtually anyone who is reliable.   I know lots of young people who are not in this “my opportunity’s suck” mentality that have multiple jobs.   My son’s girlfriend teaches at an Indian reservation (about the toughest teaching there is) and on the side does bookkeeping and handy person tasks.   

      As I indicated I believe current house purchases are expensive.   If you have to go back 40+ years for a statistically more affordable period, the home purchase is expensive.  My issue is I was hearing the same BS (at the time) complaints about home purchase costs in 2015 to 2021 (because they were not as cheap as 2010) when house purchases were more affordable than most/virtually all of the previous 50 years.   I suspect all of us active in RE in that time period heard the same complaints about the cost to purchase then    Purchases in 2015 to 2021 almost universally look cheap today.

      Just as the 1980 unaffordable situation did not last forever, neither will this unaffordable situation, but it may take a while.

      I see a lot of young people with new mobile phones, new vehicles, multiple streaming services, going to expensive sporting events and concerts while complaining about the cost of housing,   There is a generational mindset difference between sacrifices and entitlement between the generations.   Note I am not implying it is universal, but in general.  I deal with many very motivated young people who seldom get victim mentality.

      Good luck

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Theresa Harris:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Theresa Harris:

        Yes house prices have gone up, but so have salaries as well as expectations of what people need (many are wants).  There is also a growing number of people who don't want the responsibility of owning homes and would rather rent (which depending on their income when they retire, may cause a lot of problems).  You can't have everything and you aren't going to start with a home that your parents worked 25+ years to get. Choices have consequences-want a new car every 3-5 years, a vacation to a tropical destination, dinner/lunch out 3x a week, etc....then those are your choices and it will be really hard to get ahead and save the down payment for a home.

        Rates of 6.5% are pretty much the norm.  The low rates from 5-15 years ago were NOT normal (nor were the high rates in the late 1980s). You hear the same story in other countries.

        Shiloh summed it up beautifully. "You just need to stop whining and saying it's not alive. You just need to ask the question "how can I get the American dream" and then get off your butt and go do the work."

        When rates were 6.5% back in 90s, the ratio was about 3.75x for housing and median income. It's now 5.2x.  That's just housing. 

        College? 7% then now 15%
        Utilities? 5% now 7%
        Groceries are surprisingly equal.

        Wages grew 13% over 30Y. Housing 70%, cars 40%, Tuition 110%. And we're saying it's the same chase.

        I've already provided tons of info on how to navigate into the future. But anyone saying it's still alive & well, stop complaining is tone deaf.

         Mortgage rates in the late 1980s were double digit.


        When rates averaged 14% in the early 80s, housing average was $61k and income was about $20k. So little over 3x.

        Thats substantially easier than 6.5% on $420k at $80k salary knowing the cost of everything else has vastly overtaken wages.

        My point isn't saying woe is me for the youngsters or next generation. It's simply stating the American dream is on its last leg. Quit telling folks to quit bitching and figure it out, tell them to play a new game. The international arbritrage is simply incredible now. Choose that path.

         I have seen the data that show he 1980s had less affordable home purchases nationally than today by quite a margin.  So where the disconnect.

        I started by internet search of worse interest rates in the 1980s and it returned 18.63% in Oct 1981.  That is significantly more than 14%.

        Median home price in 1980 was $64,600.  Today $408,800.   So your numbers were close to my internet results.

        Today’s median income $83,730, 1980 provided a range in the response that your $20k number was in the upper part of the range.

        Then I placed your numbers into my mortgage calculator.

        1980s: $650/month at 90% LTV. 39% of households income

        Today: $3191/month at 90% LTV.. 47%.

        Now use 18.63% is $1122/month at 90% LTV. 67.32% of household income. Needless to say 67.32% of household income is substantially greater than 47%.

        As for these jobs that you say it is hard to find one job.  The gig economy has jobs for virtually anyone who is reliable.   I know lots of young people who are not in this my opportunity’s suck mentality that have multiple jobs.   My son’s girlfriend teaches at an Indian reservation (about the toughest teaching there is) and on the side does bookkeeping and handy person tasks.   

        As I indicated I believe current house purchases are expensive.   If you have to go back 40+ years for a statistically more affordable period, the home purchase is expensive.  My issue is I was hearing the same BS (at the time) complaints about home purchade costs in 2015 to 2021 (because they were not as cheap as 2010) when house purchases were more affordable than most of the previous 50 years.   I suspect all of us active in RE in that time period heard the same complaints about the cost to purchase then    Purchases in 2015 to 2021 almost universally look cheap today.

        Just as the 1980 unaffordable situation did not last forever, neither will this unaffordable situation, but it may take a while.

        I see a lot of young people with new mobile phones, new vehicles, multiple streaming services, going to expensive sporting events and concerts while complaining about the cost of housing,   There is a generational mindset difference between sacrifices and entitlement between the generations.   Note I am not implying it is universal, but in general.  I deal with many very motivated young people who seldom get victim mentality.

        Good luck

        You are comparing a multi-year structural shift today against a single, historic one-week spike in October 1981 to try and make today's numbers look reasonable.

        That 18.63% peak lasted for a literal flash in the pan before dropping. Today’s structural unaffordability has been a multi-year, grinding baseline.

        But let's look at your own calculator results using the actual averages:

        Your own math shows a 47% income-to-mortgage burden today versus 39% in the 1980s.


        You literally just proved my point that today is statistically harder. This is before the cost of all other aspects of life.

        And telling a 22-year-old to work three "gig economy" side-hustles just to afford a basic starter home isn't proof of an abundant 'American Dream.' It is the literal definition of a grueling survival plan.

        No one is asking for a victim mentality. I'm telling us cloud yellers to stop pretending that working 80 hours a week to clear a 133% down-payment-to-income ratio is "accessible."

        It’s a broken set up, no matter how many streaming services you try to blame it on. And it's only going to get worse.

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo

      The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

      Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

      If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

      1) Psychology

      2) Multiple languages 

      3) Finance and business structure..

      For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

      It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

      Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 

      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?

      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  This may require intelligent decisions, hard work, financial knowledge, etc.   I see young people all around me achieving the American dream.    Those that I deal with regularly that are not on that path typically either have the victim mentality or for some other reason are not heavily motivated.

        i see two sisters (One is my son’s girlfriend) from a broken home on their way to the American dream.   Both taught at an Indian reservation this morning.  One of them was working for my son this afternoon (yesterday they both worked for my son after teaching all morning and a long commute).   I am giving her the opportunity to manage the next tenant flip (technically started yesterday) even though I know she is teaching summer school for half the day and has over 1 hour commute each way.  She will do a great job and she wants the opportunity.

        i see a person who decided he needed to straighten his life out when waking up in a crack house.   he became a janitor and did handyman stuff for me on the side (the best handyman I ever had).   Today, He is a 10% and I believe will be a 1% soon.  He successfully pulled off a $0.5m sophisticated value add (he partnered with his sister (no HML) so only made half - I wish he had chose to partner with me).

        I see my son’s best friend in vet school, doing internships, and working for my son.  There is virtually zero chance he does not achieve the American dream.

        i see my son who for the 2nd time is starting his handyman business (he burnt out on it shortly before going off to college and gave it to his friend).  He has more work than he can handle.  He has accumulated over 6 figures of savings.   He has placed offers on properties but has yet to close.   He will flip or do a live in brrrr.  He will use his crew and contacts to make a solid return.  My view is he is not quite to the American dream but I suspect he will reach it this year.

        I see a person who is about to start a family that is looking for his 5th unit that purchased his first property about 4 years ago (he was a protege, but ignored a lot of my teachings but was motivated and intelligent so he had what was required to succeed).   I suspect his net worth is over $1m with virtually all of it acquired since 2021.  He treated me to lunch yesterday which he knows somewhat my worth (he knows I am 1%).   I modestly tried to decline but not too hard as I figured it was his way of saying he has made it and to indicate he appreciates my role in that success.  He has achieved the American dream, more so after they have their first child.

        You know what all these people have in common?   None have a victim mentality.  None believe the American dream is on life support.   They each have an understanding of finances that likely exceeds virtually everyone with a victim mentality.   I will add they are all great people who know how to succeed and have fun.

        you can choose to believe the American dream is on life support.   I see otherwise.

        take care. 
      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        I view the American dream about opportunity to obtain financial comfort. But f people have victim mentality, things will be unaffordable. As more people believe they are victims, more people find things unaffordable.

        but as long as there is viable path to financial comfort for young people, the American dream lives. Seeing virtually every young person I know and encounter are crushing it, then there must be viable paths to financial comfort. I listed many examples of young people I interact with regularly who are crushing it (I try to mentor them to help them achieve success). If you want to see it first hand, go to MTR summit (I have been) or SquadUp Summit (I have not been but i have seen Pace’s motivated young followers).  These people do not have victim mentality and therefore are motivated and either have achieved the American dream or are on their way to achieve the American dream.

        see the glass half empty if that is what you desire.  I proudly see the glass half full.
      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        "You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth."

        Putting all of the numbers and stats aside - regardless of the discrepancy in costs v growth (or any other numbers), there will always be opportunity....especially in the good ole US of A.

        Of course this depends on location and the particular character of the individual....
        But you will notice that regardless of what is going on with the world, there are always plenty of people that still rise to the top.

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        "You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth."

        Putting all of the numbers and stats aside - regardless of the discrepancy in costs v growth (or any other numbers), there will always be opportunity....especially in the good ole US of A.

        Of course this depends on location and the particular character of the individual....
        But you will notice that regardless of what is going on with the world, there are always plenty of people that still rise to the top.


         Yes, there's always opportunities. You're right about that

        But you are focusing on extreme outliers, whereas I am talking about the systemic norm.

        The unique promise of the American Dream was never that a few exceptional people could scrape their way to the top. Thats been true under every economic system in human history.

        The promise was that an average person working an average job could reliably achieve a middle-class life.

        Forty years ago, that dream was an accessible baseline. Today, achieving that exact same baseline requires a statistical outlier event.

        When a country's basic standard of living requires you to be an anomaly just to afford it, the dream isn't alive.

        It is on its last leg.

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        I view the American dream about opportunity to obtain financial comfort. But f people have victim mentality, things will be unaffordable. As more people believe they are victims, more people find things unaffordable.

        but as long as there is viable path to financial comfort for young people, the American dream lives. Seeing virtually every young person I know and encounter are crushing it, then there must be viable paths to financial comfort. I listed many examples of young people I interact with regularly who are crushing it (I try to mentor them to help them achieve success). If you want to see it first hand, go to MTR summit (I have been) or SquadUp Summit (I have not been but i have seen Pace’s motivated young followers).  These people do not have victim mentality and therefore are motivated and either have achieved the American dream or are on their way to achieve the American dream.

        see the glass half empty if that is what you desire.  I proudly see the glass half full.

        Young people you interact with is just cherrypicking. I can do the same.

        I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        Theres a guy at the delta lounge I see monthly for the last 2 years. He graduated in peak Covid times from Cal Poly, and works at the lounge. He's set to move overseas by April 2027 and live the dream there. Because he's realized to get out of $180k debt, $2k/mo rent which is cheap, and being laid off from 2 funds in 2 years(23&24) with no familial support this is hard.

        Forget isolated examples & stop using those, look at the systemic norms. Look at the cost vs wage gap, do the math. The dream is on its last leg.
      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        "You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth."

        Putting all of the numbers and stats aside - regardless of the discrepancy in costs v growth (or any other numbers), there will always be opportunity....especially in the good ole US of A.

        Of course this depends on location and the particular character of the individual....
        But you will notice that regardless of what is going on with the world, there are always plenty of people that still rise to the top.


         Yes, there's always opportunities. You're right about that

        But you are focusing on extreme outliers, whereas I am talking about the systemic norm.

        The unique promise of the American Dream was never that a few exceptional people could scrape their way to the top. Thats been true under every economic system in human history.

        The promise was that an average person working an average job could reliably achieve a middle-class life.

        Forty years ago, that dream was an accessible baseline. Today, achieving that exact same baseline requires a statistical outlier event.

        When a country's basic standard of living requires you to be an anomaly just to afford it, the dream isn't alive.

        It is on its last leg.

        It's not an anomaly, except in California and Seattle and New York etc. Their socialist policies are to blame for much of the problem. And I'm sure you can also cherry pick stats to back you up, but I'm just not seeing it, hearing it or believing it. 

        Let it go....
      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        "You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth."

        Putting all of the numbers and stats aside - regardless of the discrepancy in costs v growth (or any other numbers), there will always be opportunity....especially in the good ole US of A.

        Of course this depends on location and the particular character of the individual....
        But you will notice that regardless of what is going on with the world, there are always plenty of people that still rise to the top.


         Yes, there's always opportunities. You're right about that

        But you are focusing on extreme outliers, whereas I am talking about the systemic norm.

        The unique promise of the American Dream was never that a few exceptional people could scrape their way to the top. Thats been true under every economic system in human history.

        The promise was that an average person working an average job could reliably achieve a middle-class life.

        Forty years ago, that dream was an accessible baseline. Today, achieving that exact same baseline requires a statistical outlier event.

        When a country's basic standard of living requires you to be an anomaly just to afford it, the dream isn't alive.

        It is on its last leg.

        It's not an anomaly, except in California and Seattle and New York etc. Their socialist policies are to blame for much of the problem. And I'm sure you can also cherry pick stats to back you up, but I'm just not seeing it, hearing it or believing it. 

        Let it go....

        The more input you provide on this topic the more I realize how grateful you should be for the time you grew up in. I hope you do, too.

        You're exactly the type to have had your success because moreso the era, not purely merit. You haven't disproved the math, the national statistics, or the hypothetical scenario. "Insane" opportunity and then suggest being a waiter in Scottsdale. Doing yourself no favors... then this?

        Blaming three areas for a national structural issue is factually incorrect. If anything, those major economic hubs are exactly where the highest-paying, outlier career opportunities are concentrated.

        Honestly, may be a dumber point than the aforementioned waiter one when asked for "insane" opportunity.  Goes back to how dense some of y'all are.

        Do yourself a favor and step out until you're ready to provide some facts cause again I'm dealing with your opinion when I've shown the stats & logic, and I actually operate in society. Granted, nowhere near from what I was doing 10 years ago but still very much out there.



      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        I view the American dream about opportunity to obtain financial comfort. But f people have victim mentality, things will be unaffordable. As more people believe they are victims, more people find things unaffordable.

        but as long as there is viable path to financial comfort for young people, the American dream lives. Seeing virtually every young person I know and encounter are crushing it, then there must be viable paths to financial comfort. I listed many examples of young people I interact with regularly who are crushing it (I try to mentor them to help them achieve success). If you want to see it first hand, go to MTR summit (I have been) or SquadUp Summit (I have not been but i have seen Pace’s motivated young followers).  These people do not have victim mentality and therefore are motivated and either have achieved the American dream or are on their way to achieve the American dream.

        see the glass half empty if that is what you desire.  I proudly see the glass half full.

        Young people you interact with is just cherrypicking. I can do the same.

        I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        Theres a guy at the delta lounge I see monthly for the last 2 years. He graduated in peak Covid times from Cal Poly, and works at the lounge. He's set to move overseas by April 2027 and live the dream there. Because he's realized to get out of $180k debt, $2k/mo rent which is cheap, and being laid off from 2 funds in 2 years(23&24) with no familial support this is hard.

        Forget isolated examples & stop using those, look at the systemic norms. Look at the cost vs wage gap, do the math. The dream is on its last leg.
        I deal with a lot of young people that are crushing it.  I go to conferences and see a lot of people crushing it.  You state the American Dream is on life support.   If many young people are crushing it then I argue the American  dream is not on life support even if many people are not crushing it.  The Americans dream as a path is possible.   It is far from guaranteed.  

        >I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        I suspect they have a decent chance because they do not have victim mindset.  However, there current path of being a barista is far from optimal.   The upward mobility in that role is quite constrained.   Is that working smart.   Do you believe a barista in the 1990s ha a good path for the American dream?


         you pointing out people not crushing it does not imply the American dream is dead.  The fact there are a large number of young people crushing it (some from as low starting point as you can imagine such as a deciding to make changes when waking up in a crack house or twin sisters raised by a sister sometimes homeless) shows the American dream still exists.  

        If you’re trying to say not everyone can achieve the American dream, that has always been the case.   If you are stating a larger number of young will not achieve the American dream, I think you are likely correct (it does not help if they have victim attitude).   If you are saying there is not a lot of opportunity for young people to succeed this is where we differ and I am seeing lots of young people find ways to financial success.   The sheer numbers I see demonstrate paths do exist.   Do you go to conferences like MTR summit?   So many young people hustling and either crushing or working to crush it.   

        As I stated logic rules states you can disprove a hypothesis via a counter example.   Seeing I see so many young people crushing it, I have disproved your hypothesis via counter example.

        You keep your defeatist view.  I will continue to mentor young to crush it.   Today my 23 year old that is running a tenant turn over for the first time is ordering new flooring (measuring was yesterday) and coordinating the install.   She will crush this effort because she is a rockstar.  I will bet she achieves the American dream.  Wife invited her to Strive higher, but fortunately the 23 year old had a late conflict.   Meeting many successful women could have catapulted her progress, but it will still happen.  

        Clearly we will never agree.  I think you do not associate with young people who are crushing it which leads to your view.  I see and deal with young people crushing it, so I know the American dream still exists.  

        I am out on this thread.

      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        "You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth."

        Putting all of the numbers and stats aside - regardless of the discrepancy in costs v growth (or any other numbers), there will always be opportunity....especially in the good ole US of A.

        Of course this depends on location and the particular character of the individual....
        But you will notice that regardless of what is going on with the world, there are always plenty of people that still rise to the top.


         Yes, there's always opportunities. You're right about that

        But you are focusing on extreme outliers, whereas I am talking about the systemic norm.

        The unique promise of the American Dream was never that a few exceptional people could scrape their way to the top. Thats been true under every economic system in human history.

        The promise was that an average person working an average job could reliably achieve a middle-class life.

        Forty years ago, that dream was an accessible baseline. Today, achieving that exact same baseline requires a statistical outlier event.

        When a country's basic standard of living requires you to be an anomaly just to afford it, the dream isn't alive.

        It is on its last leg.

        It's not an anomaly, except in California and Seattle and New York etc. Their socialist policies are to blame for much of the problem. And I'm sure you can also cherry pick stats to back you up, but I'm just not seeing it, hearing it or believing it. 

        Let it go....

        The more input you provide on this topic the more I realize how grateful you should be for the time you grew up in. I hope you do, too.

        You're exactly the type to have had your success because moreso the era, not purely merit. You haven't disproved the math, the national statistics, or the hypothetical scenario. "Insane" opportunity and then suggest being a waiter in Scottsdale. Doing yourself no favors... then this?

        Blaming three areas for a national structural issue is factually incorrect. If anything, those major economic hubs are exactly where the highest-paying, outlier career opportunities are concentrated.

        Honestly, may be a dumber point than the aforementioned waiter one when asked for "insane" opportunity.  Goes back to how dense some of y'all are.

        Do yourself a favor and step out until you're ready to provide some facts cause again I'm dealing with your opinion when I've shown the stats & logic, and I actually operate in society. Granted, nowhere near from what I was doing 10 years ago but still very much out there.



        Well of course you're right again, you always are. Must be nice I'm even if it is extremely boring and annoying to everyone around you, lol have a great 4th, adios.....
      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        I view the American dream about opportunity to obtain financial comfort. But f people have victim mentality, things will be unaffordable. As more people believe they are victims, more people find things unaffordable.

        but as long as there is viable path to financial comfort for young people, the American dream lives. Seeing virtually every young person I know and encounter are crushing it, then there must be viable paths to financial comfort. I listed many examples of young people I interact with regularly who are crushing it (I try to mentor them to help them achieve success). If you want to see it first hand, go to MTR summit (I have been) or SquadUp Summit (I have not been but i have seen Pace’s motivated young followers).  These people do not have victim mentality and therefore are motivated and either have achieved the American dream or are on their way to achieve the American dream.

        see the glass half empty if that is what you desire.  I proudly see the glass half full.

        Young people you interact with is just cherrypicking. I can do the same.

        I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        Theres a guy at the delta lounge I see monthly for the last 2 years. He graduated in peak Covid times from Cal Poly, and works at the lounge. He's set to move overseas by April 2027 and live the dream there. Because he's realized to get out of $180k debt, $2k/mo rent which is cheap, and being laid off from 2 funds in 2 years(23&24) with no familial support this is hard.

        Forget isolated examples & stop using those, look at the systemic norms. Look at the cost vs wage gap, do the math. The dream is on its last leg.
        I deal with a lot of young people that are crushing it.  I go to conferences and see a lot of people crushing it.  You state the American Dream is on life support.   If many young people are crushing it then I argue the American  dream is not on life support even if many people are not crushing it.  The Americans dream as a path is possible.   It is far from guaranteed.  

        >I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        I suspect they have a decent chance because they do not have victim mindset.  However, there current path of being a barista is far from optimal.   The upward mobility in that role is quite constrained.   Is that working smart.   Do you believe a barista in the 1990s ha a good path for the American dream?


         you pointing out people not crushing it does not imply the American dream is dead.  The fact there are a large number of young people crushing it (some from as low starting point as you can imagine such as a deciding to make changes when waking up in a crack house or twin sisters raised by a sister sometimes homeless) shows the American dream still exists.  

        If you’re trying to say not everyone can achieve the American dream, that has always been the case.   If you are stating a larger number of young will not achieve the American dream, I think you are likely correct (it does not help if they have victim attitude).   If you are saying there is not a lot of opportunity for young people to succeed this is where we differ and I am seeing lots of young people find ways to financial success.   The sheer numbers I see demonstrate paths do exist.   Do you go to conferences like MTR summit?   So many young people hustling and either crushing or working to crush it.   

        As I stated logic rules states you can disprove a hypothesis via a counter example.   Seeing I see so many young people crushing it, I have disproved your hypothesis via counter example.

        You keep your defeatist view.  I will continue to mentor young to crush it.   Today my 23 year old that is running a tenant turn over for the first time is ordering new flooring (measuring was yesterday) and coordinating the install.   She will crush this effort because she is a rockstar.  I will bet she achieves the American dream.  Wife invited her to Strive higher, but fortunately the 23 year old had a late conflict.   Meeting many successful women could have catapulted her progress, but it will still happen.  

        Clearly we will never agree.  I think you do not associate with young people who are crushing it which leads to your view.  I see and deal with young people crushing it, so I know the American dream still exists.  

        I am out on this thread.

         I am giving those examples of young people just to show you cherrypicking is irrelevant. 

        Look at systemic norms via the stats.

        If I look at my own family of youngsters, they're all killing it. Do you see me using my narrow, biased sample size as the norm? 

        No way. 

        I am using the norms, not the outliers. 

        I could brag all day about my nieces and nephews as my own are too young to do that. My nieces and nephews are the .1% of their age group. Not 1%, but .1%.

        It would be tone deaf. My argument is about the American dream. Last leg & practically dead.

        As time goes on the 90% will go to 97% of what money can buy(directly correlated to affordability), and technology will separate any interaction from the top 5-10% & the rest of society.  You even agree with the former part, at least, yet still say it's normal. It's not normal. Being top 10% isn't normal.

      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Dan H.:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        The American dream is on its last leg, due to affordability. There's still opportunities out there to thrive, but it requires a global view. Both those things can be true at the same time. @Dan H.

        Of course, my view is in the minority. You have folks saying there's insane opportunity out here and are oblivious to the discrepancy in costs versus wage growth. My views are pitted against folks clearly who haven't gotten a reality check.

        If you want to dominate today's economy understand:

        1) Psychology

        2) Multiple languages 

        3) Finance and business structure..

        For point 3, be very niche. You can absolutely arbritrage US wealth in other global spots. Then come back to America and buy your white picket fence house. But ground up here-- nepo baby, top 5% of your class/group, dumb luck. 

        It's no longer a meat and potato playbook. 

        Bottom line: The bottom 90% of performers can no longer achieve a similar lifestyle as any generation prior with the same inputs. The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment. 


         I see more opportunities in my CA markets than I have desire to execute on.  

        I somehow suck at foreign languages even though my dad and son are exceptional and my mom was the best with languages that I have ever seen.   I did come slightly close to a minor in psychology (it would have added no financial value to the degree I earned), but do not think my knowledge in that subject is noticeably beyond most educated people.   I believe my advantage is understanding of likely financial impacts (actuary skills applied to determine sophisticated value adds, but no formal education as an actuary).

        >The top 10% deviation is so strong. The future is bottom 92, then 95 then 97. Hence, last leg comment.

        I largely agree with this statement but believe the victim mentality contributes to this issue.  I believe those with good intelligence and work ethic can succeed.   Not only do I believe, but I see it.   The young people I deal with most regularly (mostly my son’s maintenance team including those no longer part of his maintenance team) are on their way to that top 10%.   My first protege was a cleaned up drug addict that was doing janitorial and maintenance work at a church.   Today he getting close to a 1%.   A while back he pulled off a short term $500k sophisticated value adds.  I have made more on long term sophisticated value adds, but never one that was close to this short in duration.   I had lunch on Wednesday with a more recent protege (younger, just starting to try having a child).   He has 4 units (2 in San Diego, 2 in Virginia Beach) and is looking for his next.  I believe he has crossed $1m net worth.

        I go to conventions and I see motivated young people everywhere.  The most extreme was the MTR summit, but the organizer has a following that I would compare slightly to Pace Moreby that I believe the mentor is probably benefitting more from his protégés (in aggregate) than the protégés are likely to benefit from the mentor.   I will say both Pace and Jesse have passionate, hustling, motivated followers.

        You say the American dream is on life support, but where I look I see young people accomplishing the American dream.   The American dream is definitely still possible.  It is one reason I spend much of each day mentoring those young people around me.

        Victim mentality people are likely to continue to struggle.  They have no reason to have motivation.  Motivation drives continuing education and work ethic.  It is unlikely that many of these people will achieve great success.

        Those that believe there is opportunity can be enthusiastic, energetic, motivated.   I see these people achieve the American dream.  Because I see people accomplishing it, I know the American dream can still be achieved.

        Maybe you need to spend time mentoring those young people who have not given up on the American dream.  This mentoring can help these young people achieve the American dream.

        Good luck


         In 1985, 40% of Americans could afford 90% of the median house price, plus 2 cars, student loans, 2 kids, 2 vacations a year. 

        In 1995, 35% of Americans.

        In 2005, 30% of Americans.

        In 2015, 25% of Americans.

        In 2025, 12% of Americans.

        How is the American dream not on its last leg?


        I do not know the source of your data but here is my admittedly made up data on victim mentality:

        1995: 10%

        2005: 30%

        2015: 25%

        2025: 50%+

        Introduction to logic has a rule that you cannot prove something via example, but you can disprove something by counter example.

        The fact that virtually every young person I interact with is on their way to the American dream implies there is a path for the American dream with the right mindset, intelligence, work ethic, etc.   my son will almost certainly purchase his first home in San Diego at a younger age than I accomplished.  He has already made offers and is 23 YO.  The median home price in our market is ~$1m.

        You state the American Dream is on life support and that mindset makes it so.  I state the American dream is still attainable because I see young people having great success.   What is the difference?  I claim mindset is one of the bigger differences.  Your defeatist mindset leads to defeat.

        Your see glass half full, you see glass half empty.   That is fine, but the victim attitude is itself limiting those that have it.

        Good luck


         These aren't opinions. These are hard facts. Look at the OP.

        If you're telling me lack of affordability isn't real, I am not sure what to say. 

        I do not view the American dream mostly dictated by affordability.  To me the American dream is you can achieve financial comfort.  
        This is a paradox.

        Affordability and financial comfort are the same side of the coin.

        I view the American dream about opportunity to obtain financial comfort. But f people have victim mentality, things will be unaffordable. As more people believe they are victims, more people find things unaffordable.

        but as long as there is viable path to financial comfort for young people, the American dream lives. Seeing virtually every young person I know and encounter are crushing it, then there must be viable paths to financial comfort. I listed many examples of young people I interact with regularly who are crushing it (I try to mentor them to help them achieve success). If you want to see it first hand, go to MTR summit (I have been) or SquadUp Summit (I have not been but i have seen Pace’s motivated young followers).  These people do not have victim mentality and therefore are motivated and either have achieved the American dream or are on their way to achieve the American dream.

        see the glass half empty if that is what you desire.  I proudly see the glass half full.

        Young people you interact with is just cherrypicking. I can do the same.

        I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        Theres a guy at the delta lounge I see monthly for the last 2 years. He graduated in peak Covid times from Cal Poly, and works at the lounge. He's set to move overseas by April 2027 and live the dream there. Because he's realized to get out of $180k debt, $2k/mo rent which is cheap, and being laid off from 2 funds in 2 years(23&24) with no familial support this is hard.

        Forget isolated examples & stop using those, look at the systemic norms. Look at the cost vs wage gap, do the math. The dream is on its last leg.
        I deal with a lot of young people that are crushing it.  I go to conferences and see a lot of people crushing it.  You state the American Dream is on life support.   If many young people are crushing it then I argue the American  dream is not on life support even if many people are not crushing it.  The Americans dream as a path is possible.   It is far from guaranteed.  

        >I deal with 2-3 different baristas a week in my vacation spot up in the Pac NW this summer. Each have over $100k in student loan debt, live together and are fully optimistic they'll get out of it with the market. Quite optimistic, and I hope they do.

        I suspect they have a decent chance because they do not have victim mindset.  However, there current path of being a barista is far from optimal.   The upward mobility in that role is quite constrained.   Is that working smart.   Do you believe a barista in the 1990s ha a good path for the American dream?


         you pointing out people not crushing it does not imply the American dream is dead.  The fact there are a large number of young people crushing it (some from as low starting point as you can imagine such as a deciding to make changes when waking up in a crack house or twin sisters raised by a sister sometimes homeless) shows the American dream still exists.  

        If you’re trying to say not everyone can achieve the American dream, that has always been the case.   If you are stating a larger number of young will not achieve the American dream, I think you are likely correct (it does not help if they have victim attitude).   If you are saying there is not a lot of opportunity for young people to succeed this is where we differ and I am seeing lots of young people find ways to financial success.   The sheer numbers I see demonstrate paths do exist.   Do you go to conferences like MTR summit?   So many young people hustling and either crushing or working to crush it.   

        As I stated logic rules states you can disprove a hypothesis via a counter example.   Seeing I see so many young people crushing it, I have disproved your hypothesis via counter example.

        You keep your defeatist view.  I will continue to mentor young to crush it.   Today my 23 year old that is running a tenant turn over for the first time is ordering new flooring (measuring was yesterday) and coordinating the install.   She will crush this effort because she is a rockstar.  I will bet she achieves the American dream.  Wife invited her to Strive higher, but fortunately the 23 year old had a late conflict.   Meeting many successful women could have catapulted her progress, but it will still happen.  

        Clearly we will never agree.  I think you do not associate with young people who are crushing it which leads to your view.  I see and deal with young people crushing it, so I know the American dream still exists.  

        I am out on this thread.

         I am giving those examples of young people just to show you cherrypicking is irrelevant. 

        Look at systemic norms via the stats.

        If I look at my own family of youngsters, they're all killing it. Do you see me using my narrow, biased sample size as the norm? 

        No way. 

        I am using the norms, not the outliers. 

        I could brag all day about my nieces and nephews as my own are too young to do that. My nieces and nephews are the .1% of their age group. Not 1%, but .1%.

        It would be tone deaf. My argument is about the American dream. Last leg & practically dead.

        As time goes on the 90% will go to 97% of what money can buy(directly correlated to affordability), and technology will separate any interaction from the top 5-10% & the rest of society.  You even agree with the former part, at least, yet still say it's normal. It's not normal. Being top 10% isn't normal.

        Your interpretation of the American dream being on life support is different than mine if you believe it is on life support with large numbers of young people achieving it.  

        why are your nieces and nephews crushing it and others are not?   I suspect your young  family members do not have victim mentality.

        to me it is not necessarily about the norm achieving financial comfort especially if the norm has victim mentality.  The American dream is can a motivated and hardworking person achieve financial comfort?   Not only is financial comfort achievable, but financial wealth is achievable. I see more opportunity than when I was young.  

        I know a young man that has an engineer degree but he started an internet wristwatch club where on a periodic basis you get a watch exchange.  It did not seem like a great idea to me (I am happy with my Apple Watch until it no longer meets my needs), but he is crushing it enough that he is not working as an engineer.   Just another example of the opportunities available.

        i discuss sophisticated value adds to my protégés.   There are so many sophisticated value adds at this time.  

        if your definition of American dream on life support is that unmotivated young people are unlikely to achieve financial comfort (which is not my definition) then I understand your view.

        if you want to help young people with their pursuit of the American dream, provide guidance that can assist their pursuit.   Bonus if you contribute to their further education to help with their student debt.

        best wishes

      • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
        Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
        2mo

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.

      • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
        Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.


        just from my point of view being fluent in spanish is a absolute advantage for anyone in our space IE RE rehab construction etc.  At least for a wide swath of the country.. 

        Like I said before people have been talking about how bad things are in each decade for me starting in RE in the mid 70s the economy was crap.. came back a little then Carter years were rates when to 18% or more  RE crashed again.. then we had the saving and loan debacles and all those bail outs.. And for regional the SF bay area suffered mightily from 90 to 97 ish values in some areas dropped almost 50% I know I had loans on properties in SF in great area ( Green st and Lombard) were the value went down 50%.. My brother in law bought a house in Los altos hills in 91 for 1.2 that had sold in 87 for 2.5.. we have short memories.. But time cures a lot of this and we are not even talking about the dot com bubble or the GFC  Many folks on this site are just too young to realize what we are all talking about has happened before and will happen again. 
      • Member since 2025 · 2 posts · 1 vote
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.

         “Model language” - do you mean LLM model language or something else? 

        Separately - I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making. 

        34% of high school grads enrolled in a 4 year in the early 70s. Now the rate is 50% higher- around half enroll in a 4 year. 

        I think the tide on that thinking is turning after the experiences of the last 20 years but a ways to go. 

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Greg Carlson:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.


         “Model language” - do you mean LLM model language or something else? 


         Yes, slm really is where I was trying to go with in regards to niche based.

      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.


        just from my point of view being fluent in spanish is a absolute advantage for anyone in our space IE RE rehab construction etc.  At least for a wide swath of the country.. 

        Like I said before people have been talking about how bad things are in each decade for me starting in RE in the mid 70s the economy was crap.. came back a little then Carter years were rates when to 18% or more  RE crashed again.. then we had the saving and loan debacles and all those bail outs.. And for regional the SF bay area suffered mightily from 90 to 97 ish values in some areas dropped almost 50% I know I had loans on properties in SF in great area ( Green st and Lombard) were the value went down 50%.. My brother in law bought a house in Los altos hills in 91 for 1.2 that had sold in 87 for 2.5.. we have short memories.. But time cures a lot of this and we are not even talking about the dot com bubble or the GFC  Many folks on this site are just too young to realize what we are all talking about has happened before and will happen again. 

         Everyone has short memories, it's all cyclical.

        Dare I bring up real estate that depreciates in a short term period though on this forum.

        Buy on the down turn only what you can afford to weather. RE is physical so more hair on it, need to think deeper pockets which should be absolutely correlated with the reward for the risk.

      • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
        Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.


        just from my point of view being fluent in spanish is a absolute advantage for anyone in our space IE RE rehab construction etc.  At least for a wide swath of the country.. 

        Like I said before people have been talking about how bad things are in each decade for me starting in RE in the mid 70s the economy was crap.. came back a little then Carter years were rates when to 18% or more  RE crashed again.. then we had the saving and loan debacles and all those bail outs.. And for regional the SF bay area suffered mightily from 90 to 97 ish values in some areas dropped almost 50% I know I had loans on properties in SF in great area ( Green st and Lombard) were the value went down 50%.. My brother in law bought a house in Los altos hills in 91 for 1.2 that had sold in 87 for 2.5.. we have short memories.. But time cures a lot of this and we are not even talking about the dot com bubble or the GFC  Many folks on this site are just too young to realize what we are all talking about has happened before and will happen again. 

         Everyone has short memories, it's all cyclical.

        Dare I bring up real estate that depreciates in a short term period though on this forum.

        Buy on the down turn only what you can afford to weather. RE is physical so more hair on it, need to think deeper pockets which should be absolutely correlated with the reward for the risk.


        No question virtually anyone who bought in the last 3 to 5 years is at best break even and some are upside down if you factor in sales costs and depreciation recapture. 
      • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
        Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Greg Carlson:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.

         “Model language” - do you mean LLM model language or something else? 

        Separately - I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making. 

        34% of high school grads enrolled in a 4 year in the early 70s. Now the rate is 50% higher- around half enroll in a 4 year. 

        I think the tide on that thinking is turning after the experiences of the last 20 years but a ways to go. 

        "I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making."

        This ^^^^^
        If you took all of the $$ spent in the US by wanna-be college goers and invested it......Wow!
      • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
        Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @Greg Carlson:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.

         “Model language” - do you mean LLM model language or something else? 

        Separately - I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making. 

        34% of high school grads enrolled in a 4 year in the early 70s. Now the rate is 50% higher- around half enroll in a 4 year. 

        I think the tide on that thinking is turning after the experiences of the last 20 years but a ways to go. 

        "I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making."

        This ^^^^^
        If you took all of the $$ spent in the US by wanna-be college goers and invested it......Wow!

        in the deep south so many of the young ladies go to collage to find a husband and get married . I had a client who had a dress shop in Oxford MS and it was wild what those young ladies would spend on cotillion dress's etc etc.. at least this is what she told me.
      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @Greg Carlson:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.

         “Model language” - do you mean LLM model language or something else? 

        Separately - I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making. 

        34% of high school grads enrolled in a 4 year in the early 70s. Now the rate is 50% higher- around half enroll in a 4 year. 

        I think the tide on that thinking is turning after the experiences of the last 20 years but a ways to go. 

        "I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making."

        This ^^^^^
        If you took all of the $$ spent in the US by wanna-be college goers and invested it......Wow!

        in the deep south so many of the young ladies go to collage to find a husband and get married . I had a client who had a dress shop in Oxford MS and it was wild what those young ladies would spend on cotillion dress's etc etc.. at least this is what she told me.

        Thats how it use to work. You go to college to find your mate. 

        Now these folks go on apps and it becomes a checklist. It just incentives concentration in choices. The top have the buffet and the others get nothing. Technology is incredibly useful but dangerous. 
      • V.G JasonPro Member
        Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
        Quote from @Greg Carlson:
        Quote from @V.G Jason:
        Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

        @V.G Jason so you're saying that I've been successful because I speak both English and Spanish fluently, I'm a licensed therapist, and have a specific niche in Real Estate which is lease options? I've never attributed a lot of my success to those specific things. Interesting. 

        I'm saying in a forward view. If you want to dominate today's economic landscape and you're just jumping in/out of college-- language, psychology, finance structure. I should add foreign language is fine, but model language is superior.

        The latter is most important, former will open huge areas 

        I am not talking about past success. Ofc, when I give such advice everyone looks inward instead of understanding.

        That level of vanity has definitely hurt the future generations.Imagine as a parent you're thinking of yourself always.

         “Model language” - do you mean LLM model language or something else? 

        Separately - I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making. 

        34% of high school grads enrolled in a 4 year in the early 70s. Now the rate is 50% higher- around half enroll in a 4 year. 

        I think the tide on that thinking is turning after the experiences of the last 20 years but a ways to go. 

        "I think we have too many high school grads going to 4 year college who don’t need it vs community or trades. No one is forcing them, it’s poorly informed family decision making."

        This ^^^^^
        If you took all of the $$ spent in the US by wanna-be college goers and invested it......Wow!

         Yes & no. This view suffers from massive recency bias--people look at where the money is right now instead of where it's going.

        15 years ago, everyone screamed that coding was the best path to wealth. If you got a SWE job, you were right for seven years. But the last eight have been a disastrous slide down. 

        In 2021 and early 2022, tech hiring was fast and furious. Then OpenAI dropped at the end of 2022, and the entire corporate world froze.

        Now, big tech and media are heavily promoting the trades. If everyone blindly follows that advice, you will completely oversupply the market and crash trade wages.

        It’s the Wayne Gretzky rule: go where the puck is going, not where it’s been.

        If I am 20 years old today, I’m not blindly entering a trade just because it's the current trend. I am mastering model language (LLMs and SLMs) and using that leverage to absolutely disrupt whatever industry I am obsessed with.

        And it's rarely a "poor family decision." Kids do what they want to do because families are fractured. Another aspect of the American dream that's suffered.

    • Member since 2020 · 351 posts · 329 votes
      2mo

      Part of the problem is you both have different definitions of the American dream. Two things are simultaneously true. There have never been more opportunities for entrepreneurship. The middle and working class is getting squeezed because costs are rising faster than wages. 

      If the American dream is being able to be middle class, own a home on a 40-45 hour a week job, that is on its last legs as V.G. has said. If the American dream is being able to make it by setting up your own business while working your day job that is alive more than ever.

      We see it in the elections. Mandami won in NYC because he carried the 20 something folks with college and graduate degrees bigly. Maga is the conservative version of Mandami. The youth aren't buying what you're selling because a lot of people's degree didn't lead them to a path of a good job and now they don't trust the system.

    • Real Estate Professional · Mansfield, MA · Member since 2012 · 74 posts · 28 votes
      2mo

      The American Dream is NOT Dead, but to many, especially in the AI world we are all in today, the American Dream is about having it NOW! That doesn't necessarily exist for many of us. You can have the American Dream, but it takes work and sacrifice. You can't always go out to eat and get Doordash (a waste of money). You can't always get the latest IPhone. If you want something bad enough, you need to go after it and it takes sacrifice, patience and time. This was no different years ago, and is no different today. Just my thoughts. 

    • V.G JasonPro Member
      Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      2mo

      It's on its last leg. Wake up & smell the coffee. 

      Politics aside, JD's comments on Rogan underscoring affordability in housing touches exactly on what I'm saying.

      Vance recalled a Thanksgiving conversation with friends that underscored the problem, where an engineer revealed he couldn't afford a home in a safe area. Another friend said his childhood San Diego neighborhood that was once filled with military families is now out of reach even for Marine officers.

      San Diego will always be an outlier. But yes, an engineer likely cannot afford a home in a good area these days in major metros. Definitely not on a single income. How and why we got here are a myriad of reasons but it's absolutely a gut punch to the American dream that an outstanding field to get into can barely, if even, get you by. 

      • Dan H.Pro Member
        Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
        2mo
        Quote from @V.G Jason:

        It's on its last leg. Wake up & smell the coffee. 

        Politics aside, JD's comments on Rogan underscoring affordability in housing touches exactly on what I'm saying.

        Vance recalled a Thanksgiving conversation with friends that underscored the problem, where an engineer revealed he couldn't afford a home in a safe area. Another friend said his childhood San Diego neighborhood that was once filled with military families is now out of reach even for Marine officers.

        San Diego will always be an outlier. But yes, an engineer likely cannot afford a home in a good area these days in major metros. Definitely not on a single income. How and why we got here are a myriad of reasons but it's absolutely a gut punch to the American dream that an outstanding field to get into can barely, if even, get you by. 


         Engineer salaries have a big range.   There is a large difference in salary of an entry level engineer salary versus a fighter jet architect salary.     Based on my last offer, that I turned down, I could afford to purchase a home in San Diego on a single income fairly fast if I was starting with no net worth except my education/resume.

        For the young engineers they will need to live below their means, save, work on career growth before purchasing in expensive housing markets.

        What I see instead is young people, including my son, who do not want to start with entry level housing, that like to have fun, like to take a lot of vacations (my son is on a 1 month vacation when he took an over 3 week vacation in the spring), like to eat good food, go to expensive entertainment (crazy what some sporting tickets or concert tickets go for), purchase new phone every couple years (my son’s phone is 4 generations newer than my mobile phone), etc.  then they complain about the cost of living (my son does not complain about the cost of living, but has other traits with those that do).

        I found a good starter house hack for my son.   Lowest priced duplex with that configuration  in that market in a long while (by the way non commercial MF are not selling in San Diego).  Maybe class b- area (nicer old part of Escondido).    He indicated he did not want to live in Escondido.   He wants to purchase near his current place in pt Loma (class b+, median price $1.45m, ~$1k psf).   I would have loved to have been able to purchase my first home in pt Loma but it was not a possibility for me.  It may be possible for my son as he has financial opportunities that were unavailable when I was his age.

        The American dream is not on life support.   What may be minimal is those that are willing to make the sacrifices that can obtain the American dream.


        As long as there is a viable path for the American dream, it is not on life support.  It does not qualify as being on life support if people choose not to pursue the American dream.   They set their own goals and priorities.   If they do not want to make the sacrifices necessary to achieve the American dream, that is their choice.


        best wishes

    • Henry ClarkPro Member
      Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1mo

      OP. Won't disagree with any of your data. Some of the mathematical statements don't apply to new homeowners. System and REI specifically are built for the Wealthy to get Wealthier day to day world, but even more so inflation from 1970 thru today. Off Gold Standard, Congress/voter spending, Federal Reserve helping Treasury make money, Corporate Bail outs, Wages can't keep up.

      With that said, is the American Dream still alive???

      Wanted:  Who wants to be a Millionaire in 20 years????

      1.  Eskimo, missing left foot, blind in one eye, GED gpa equivalent 2.5, pick some US town that only has 10 people living in it, you can have $20 in your pocket, no car, age 21, no parents ever, but you will need a cell phone with internet access.

      2.  18 year old, HS gpa 2.5, no drugs or police record, not a go getter but can wake up and show up, do an "adequate" job, male 5' 7", 130 pounds or Female 5' 5" 110 pounds, red hair, big floppy ears, etc etc,  no parents- came from Foster home, anything else that can be bad or detrimental????  etc etc.  Live in Bill, Wyoming (no one lives there).  Can hitchhike 120 miles and get to a bus station.  $20 in your pocket.  

      3.  Family of 5.  Adults 35, kids 6/10/12, $300 in your pocket, 5 sacks of clothes, can't speak English, no training or college degree, just got off the "Boat", and all 5 of you are now Multi-Millionaires.

      The American Dream is alive and kicking.  There has never been a better country, place or time than today.  Travel overseas.  US has tons of problems.  But, that Blue passport is coveted by virtually all of the world.  Even the ones who hate it.

    • Member since 2025 · 68 posts · 28 votes
      1mo

      I think homeownership has become harder in many markets, but demand for housing hasn’t disappeared, it’s shifted. If more households rent for longer because affordability has changed, then understanding local demographics, job growth, and housing supply becomes even more important than simply betting on appreciation.

    • Candice CoatesPro Member
      New to Real Estate · DMV · Member since 2022 · 53 posts · 45 votes
      1mo

      This is an interesting conversation. I wonder if families should think of how things are set up in a generational aspect. Parents, grandparents, and young adult kids contribute to the mortgage. It would be a pretty large house, and you would have to love your family, lol, but is that the path to homeownership and equity, depending on the state of our economy?

      I'm just attaining my first rental, and the renewal strategy is something I am interested in seeing in the comments.

    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1mo

      Seeing there seem to be varying definitions of the American dream i decided to look up its source and the term American dream.

      what the American dream is. It is the following per the author that coined the term back in the 1930s:

      Everyone has the same basic rights to try and do well. Success comes from effort and personal drive rather than family title. A promise of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (from the declaration of independence)

      That's it. Nothing about many, the majority, everyone achieving financial comfort.

      A person that goes from homeless and living in drug houses with zero assets except what he is wearing to multi millionaire depicts that despite their financial/social standing great wealth can be attained.  This demonstrates that the American dream is alive and healthy.

      Conversely the fact that many people may be struggling financially has no bearing on the health of the American dream and does not imply it is dead or on life support.  It simply is not necessary for people to achieve any level of financial security for the American dream.  What is necessary is despite the financial/social standing it can be attained.   

      Again I invite anyone to verify the history/definition of the American dream that I provided in this post.

      The American dream is alive and flourishing.

      Those who want to advocate a victim mindset are resulting in greater impedance to financial security more than the current financial/social standing.

      Best wishes

    Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.