Do Little and Try and Make Money or Add Real Value and More Risk?

Do Little and Try and Make Money or Add Real Value and More Risk?

Flipper/Rehabber · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 35 votes

So about four months ago, my business partner has an inside track with this HUGE DEAL! It was a Spanish client of his, whose husband passed away, after a legal battle with her late spouse's family, she won the right to sell the home that they had lived in for years. She had it one the market for close to a year and no takers, so she reached out to him for help.

One Challenge! She was close to twenty thousand dollars behind in mortgage payments and the house needed a lot of work. When I say a lot, I mean a lot!

3,700 square feet, five bedroom and four bathroom, huge kitchen and living area at the end of a cul de sac on a 10,000 square foot lot and if you know anything about Las Vegas, its a big lot. The house easily has an ARV of around $440,000 and we had an opportunity to buy it for $330,000!

My partner was ecstatic! Meanwhile at the time we are pushing six projects simultaneously, but I am enamored with the project as well. So, we sit on the deal until our load lightens up, and the more I look at the project, I know that in order to get top dollar, the rehab is not going to need to be $30,000 but more like $50,000 and there is NO POOL! So now I am less enamored. The other challenge is that among our all of our projects when I run the numbers for the same money, we run three to four small deals and have about twice the upside and not all of our eggs are in one basket.

So September hits and we have to make a move, I am not to keen on the project, but my partner straight up tells me he wants to do the deal.

In the past my partner and I had always talked about the fact that we believed that the reason a lot of properties don't sell or spend more time on market than they should, is because of bad real estate agents. And when I say bad, I mean agents who definitely should not be listing houses! From my own experience in Las Vegas I cannot tell you how many non responsive, slow agents there are but we have had experiences with many. The good news is, that there are a lot of great agents out there too, and we have some really great ones working with us too.

So anyway what to do now? We have a lot going on and this is a major risk and my partner is dead set to do the deal!

Then the idea struck me. Why don't we buy the property (too late to wholesale), re-market with our aggressive real estate agents and see what happens? We would market for three weeks to a month, if nothing happened, then okay, commit to the rehab. So we closed on the purchase in September, and started marketing, I even posted it on Bigger Pockets Marketplace. Of course the clock is ticking. We did pay to haul the trash out and and all the garbage in and around the house to make it more presentable. Then just this last week, lightening struck, and we got an offer and its going into escrow, not closed yet so cross your fingers!

The bottom line! We bought it for $332,000 and now selling for $375,000. But I really believe that there are properties and projects out there that can be "flipped" with little or no work. Now I know for me it goes a little against the grain, because I want to at least add some value to the proposition. Makes me feel I earned my money. What do you think? And perhaps this also addresses the mop and glow rehab versus really producing something of value with major improvements.

This is a bigger conundrum, as a flipper or rehabber which direction do you go? Each path carries it's own inherent risks, do too little and you will never sell at the price you are looking for, or, do too much, and have people go wow, but price yourself out of the market?

What is your approach?

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J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
10y

I think you should be thrilled that you're able to make money on this deal by wholesaling it. If you're purchasing it for $330,000, it's 3700 square feet and needs a lot of work and the ARV is only $440,000, it is a very, very marginal deal. In fact, I would say it's a pretty bad deal.

Take the money and run... And consider yourself very lucky... 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y

    I think you should be thrilled that you're able to make money on this deal by wholesaling it. If you're purchasing it for $330,000, it's 3700 square feet and needs a lot of work and the ARV is only $440,000, it is a very, very marginal deal. In fact, I would say it's a pretty bad deal.

    Take the money and run... And consider yourself very lucky... 

  • REInvestor / Technical Support Engineer · McKinney, TX · Member since 2015 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    I'd have to agree with J Scott on this one. Make the sale for 375,000 and continue with your current projects. The 43,000 profit you'll make by selling now is guaranteed, vs. the uncertainty of what the market would be like after you're finally able to get to making the necessary repairs.

    Good luck with the offer going into escrow, (if you haven't closed yet). 

    -TobbyAshon

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Well everyone, just read the last two paragraphs, the story is irrelevant to the question.

    If you buy a place for 200K and that is determined to be the market value and you find some sucker to pay 250K, you're into predatory dealing waters. 

    If you buy at 200K and add 15K and sell for 265K, you're probably just fine.

    Difference being, you added value, not just 15K worth, but also the intrinsic values that may be seen by a buyer. 

    Not touching a place and selling higher has no justification for a higher price.

    Legally, you can forget about your "buying under the market value" junk, that is pure guru talk. If a property has been marketed to the public for a sufficient period of time, meets market conditions, what you paid IS the market value. 

    Buying a distressed property or from a distressed owner may not constitute a market sale, but if you flip the distressed property again for that much higher price, you're back to the gouging issues. From a distressed owner then is different, if it was an agreed price and you dealt fairly, when you buy that relieves that seller. You aren't in a distressed situation, then you have different circumstances to sell under. 

    It's rather rare that only the seller is distressed, but certainly happens. And, taking advantage of any distressed seller then carries its own predatory dealing issues. 

    So, always throw lipstick on, clean it, change light fixtures, paint something, get rid of trash and trim bushes, whatever, the more you touch it the less "liability" you have in your dealings. :)  

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    If you buy a place for 200K and that is determined to be the market value and you find some sucker to pay 250K, you're into predatory dealing waters. 

    Bill - Can you point us to some references on statutes (either Federal or State) that deal with "predatory dealing"?  I've heard the term in the context of licensed lenders, and have heard similar terms used for rules implemented for licensed real estate brokers, but I've never seen anything that deals with unlicensed buyers or sellers.

    I have to imagine that thousands (tens of thousands?) of houses are sold for more than they are purchased for each year without any work being done to them -- but I've never read about anyone being prosecuted for it.  Big developers do this with land all the time, and I've never heard about any of them being prosecuted either.

    I'm just trying to familiarize myself with the laws and risks, so any references would be appreciated!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    If you buy a place for 200K and that is determined to be the market value and you find some sucker to pay 250K, you're into predatory dealing waters. 

    Bill - Can you point us to some references on statutes (either Federal or State) that deal with "predatory dealing"?  I've heard the term in the context of licensed lenders, and have heard similar terms used for rules implemented for licensed real estate brokers, but I've never seen anything that deals with unlicensed buyers or sellers.

    I have to imagine that thousands (tens of thousands?) of houses are sold for more than they are purchased for each year without any work being done to them -- but I've never read about anyone being prosecuted for it.  Big developers do this with land all the time, and I've never heard about any of them being prosecuted either.

    I'm just trying to familiarize myself with the laws and risks, so any references would be appreciated!

    Yes, I get you, LOL, goggle predatory dealing in real estate, you'll get some hits.

    States and municipalities both are defining predatory practices, one common thread is selling at a significantly higher price than the market value.

    We can (and they can) define "market value".

    On the buy side, wait until granny's brother hears what she did and calls a lawyer, if it's something that a reasonable person would not have done, you can have issues.

    There is no statute I know of where a buyer and seller are tied to any price, nor is there any time period, any appreciation defined or maximum profit margin allowed, "they" don't go there. Where they do go is dealing fairly, reasonably, both parties being reasonably informed, neither party is dealing from an undue disadvantage, or where one party may coerce another into doing something a reasonable person would not do. Judges go there everyday. 

    In some definitions they give guidelines of greater than 10% as to quick sales where the "investor seller" finances the sale, I believe this was mentioned in Texas ordinances. 

    With developers consider when they buy and what they buy. Say unimproved acreage. Getting a property zoned for a higher and better use is a huge improvement, they may have 2k in a lot that sells for 30 or 40K.   

    You'll have to see how each State Attorney General defines and applies "gouging" buying or selling anything from the norm or taking advantage of the public......usually they are more concerned with gas prices, fire sales, going out of business sales, but they can certainly touch on real estate transactions and do (usually in larger sham transactions). Many transactions are hammered quietly too, do this or else and the accused party does that instead of getting hammered publicly.

    Ethics is not what an individual might define for themselves, it is a standard of conduct accepted in an industry that allows limited deviations from the norm. Ethics are not legislated in many cases but imposed under our legal system under concepts of common and uniform law. 

    And, these matters generally won't arise from some auditor or regulator seeing a deal that closed with unrealistic prices or terms, they generally come up after the fact by interested parties and they sue seeking relief or justice  of tortuous conduct. How bad you get to screw someone has limits.

    To stay away from such issues, investors need to justify their actions, in valuations and in charges for services performed, justifying fair and equitable dealing. This isn't the Wild West anymore. 

    I have seen other get into these issues, the outcome is never good. I almost had an issue years ago but we prevailed acting reasonably. From then on, that lesson was....When I do anything that can have any legal consequences from any angle, before I act or sign, I ask myself what a judge would say. That has kept me from having any issues and always on the right side of the path to successful dealings. Hope that helps :)

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    Yes, I get you, LOL, goggle predatory dealing in real estate, you'll get some hits.

    ....

    In some definitions they give guidelines of greater than 10% as to quick sales where the "investor seller" finances the sale, I believe this was mentioned in Texas ordinances. 

    ....

    You'll have to see how each State Attorney General defines and applies "gouging" buying or selling anything from the norm or taking advantage of the public......usually they are more concerned with gas prices, fire sales, going out of business sales, but they can certainly touch on real estate transactions and do (usually in larger sham transactions). Many transactions are hammered quietly too, do this or else and the accused party does that instead of getting hammered publicly.
    ....
    Hope that helps :)

    Not trying to be pedantic or argumentative, but that actually doesn't help...

    I did a search for "predatory dealing in real estate" before my last post...I posted because the only hits I seemed to get were about predatory lending and real estate scams -- neither of which we're discussing here:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=predatory+dealing+...

    So, I still don't know what "predatory dealing" means in any official/legal capacity.

    You mention the specific situation where the investor seller is financing the deal -- this gets into predatory lending, which is well accepted as against the law.  No debate there.

    Then you mention "gouging," which generally refers to taking advantage of a supply/demand imbalance to essentially coerce someone into paying more than what's considered fair.  But, this doesn't seem to fit the typical wholesale situation either (buyers aren't compelled to buy that one property out of some external condition).

    So, it's still not clear to me that buying at $X and selling at $Y is against the law, even for a mark-up of 10%, 20% or more.  Wholesalers in other industries do this all the time.  When a car dealer buys a car from the manufacturer and resells for 50% more, how is this different?  Both the car dealer and the real estate investor relied on their ability to acquire their commodity at below market value (or their ability to sell above market value, depending on how you want to look at it) -- how is it different?

    I go to Barnes & Noble to buy books that they've purchased at half the price they're selling those books to me for -- they've added no value to the commodity whatsoever.  Why isn't their 100% mark-up considered predatory but a 30% mark-up in a piece of real estate is? In fact, I can go on Amazon.com and generally buy the same book for 20-25% less than Barnes & Noble -- so I could argue that their selling at 20-25% above market value, even independent of their ability to purchase wholesale and in bulk.

    The car dealer and the bookseller are professionals -- are they not taking advantage of the public by buying low and selling higher, just like the real estate investor?  And if B&N is selling at 20-25% above Amazon, then does that mean that a 20-25% mark-up from one seller to another (like an investor purchasing and then reselling) isn't unreasonable?  The house the poster in this thread is talking about is only being marked-up about 20% -- using the B&N benchmark, it doesn't seem too bad.  Or does B&N get more leeway with "predatory dealing" than real estate investors?  If so, why and by how much?

    I'm not saying you're wrong -- I'm just asking for some additional information to help me understand how these situations are different in the eyes of a judge or an attorney general. 

    Do you have any case law examples of a real estate investor who bought a piece of property, sold it at a higher price without adding value and got convicted of "predatory dealing" (or whatever the statute might be)?

    Again, not saying you're wrong, but if this is true, I would think it should be easy to find the statutes or the case law.  And I can't seem to find any...

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Definitions: (Google, Dictionary dot Com) 

    Predatory = Attempts or actions that attempt to exploit or oppress others. 

    Gouging = An act of extortion or swindle 

    Neither are exclusive to unfair competition laws, or lending, or to any large scale enterprise. 

    I didn't use the term "price gouging" as that is as you described in markets.

    Here's the term predatory for you Jason :)

    http://www.hoodwinkedhouse.com/real-estate-fraud-t...

    Predatory dealing is, as I stated above, is usually caught in the area of fraud, deceptive trade practices at a micro level. 

    Another favorite site of BPer's:

     http://www.lonestarlandlaw.com/deceptive-trade-pra...

    Notice that "taking advantage of" and "predatory" have the same meaning.

    Consumer protection laws are basically, anti-predatory laws:https://www.nclc.org/images/pdf/udap/report_50_sta...

    Look to pages 6, 7 and 8, in the charts you'll see real estate listed and the findings of the effectiveness of state laws, in the opinion of the study.

    Here's GA. Is there anything in these statutes that exempts real estate operators, dealers, investors as to providing any service or product? No, there isn't. 

    http://consumer.georgia.gov/about-us/statutes-we-e...

    I will point out, these are consumer laws, dealing with persons where the product or service is for personal use. Also, many aspects won't apply, such as deceptive information about where a product was made. 

    From here, I'm not doing more research for you. You also need to look at the most popular deceptive and predatory practices that are generally discussed as "predatory lending".

    There you will find examples of predatory dealing in general, it's not all specific to lenders, you'll see that there are underlying deceptions of Realtors, construction contractors, appraisers and settlement agents that aids in the conspiracy of predatory lending practices. Don't assume that techniques used to deceive the public are only reserved for lenders.  

    There is no way that I'm going to dig up court findings that may be filed or related to "predatory" practices arising from torts. There are predatory sales tactics, predatory insurance practices, construction, real estate, student recruiting, finance, professional sports, all kinds of industries can have predatory practices, even in legal professions.

    You may not find a statute heading of "Predatory Dealing" you can find plenty of statutes that deal with predatory dealing type matters. :) 

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    There is no way that I'm going to dig up court findings that may be filed or related to "predatory" practices arising from torts. There are predatory sales tactics, predatory insurance practices, construction, real estate, student recruiting, finance, professional sports, all kinds of industries can have predatory practices, even in legal professions.

    You may not find a statute heading of "Predatory Dealing" you can find plenty of statutes that deal with predatory dealing type matters. :) 

    You started this thread with:

    You said specifically that marking up a piece of real estate by 25% would put this poster into "predatory dealing waters."  But, you've provided nothing to support that statement.

    As I pointed out earlier, wholesalers mark houses up all the time by 25% and don't get in trouble.  Car dealers mark cars up 50% and don't get in trouble.  Retailers mark product up 100% and more and don't get in trouble.

    But, you specifically said that this 25% mark up was predatory.

    That's a bold statement.  You are saying that the poster is breaking the law in this specific instance.  If you're going to accuse someone of illegal activity, it's not unreasonable that you provide even a modicum of support for it.

    You're telling me to do my own research.  I have.  I can't find anything specific.  Which leads me to believe you don't KNOW that this poster is breaking any laws, you just suspect it or have a gut feeling.

    There's nothing wrong with opinions (trust me, I have more than most)...we just need to keep them separate from the facts to avoid confusing issues...

  • Real Estate Agent · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Buying a house for 200 k and selling it for 1 million is not illegal as long you are not making false claims,it is sitting on a oil field,the city is going to buy it for 2 million As long as the person has the capacity to enter into a contract without ,mental illness, intimation etc it is perfectly legal.Poor judgment or sour grapes about a purchase can lend itself to lawsuits,but the fact is this is the way the market works . Who is to say that a $50 k profit in a week or a 5000 profit in a day is illegal.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    There is no way that I'm going to dig up court findings that may be filed or related to "predatory" practices arising from torts. There are predatory sales tactics, predatory insurance practices, construction, real estate, student recruiting, finance, professional sports, all kinds of industries can have predatory practices, even in legal professions.

    You may not find a statute heading of "Predatory Dealing" you can find plenty of statutes that deal with predatory dealing type matters. :) 

    You started this thread with:

    You said specifically that marking up a piece of real estate by 25% would put this poster into "predatory dealing waters."  But, you've provided nothing to support that statement.

    As I pointed out earlier, wholesalers mark houses up all the time by 25% and don't get in trouble.  Car dealers mark cars up 50% and don't get in trouble.  Retailers mark product up 100% and more and don't get in trouble.

    But, you specifically said that this 25% mark up was predatory.

    That's a bold statement.  You are saying that the poster is breaking the law in this specific instance.  If you're going to accuse someone of illegal activity, it's not unreasonable that you provide even a modicum of support for it.

    You're telling me to do my own research.  I have.  I can't find anything specific.  Which leads me to believe you don't KNOW that this poster is breaking any laws, you just suspect it or have a gut feeling.

    There's nothing wrong with opinions (trust me, I have more than most)...we just need to keep them separate from the facts to avoid confusing issues...

     If you are going to make a point out of what I said, then please don't omit words to make your opinion carry any weight. You left out "MARKET VALUE" 25% over market value is getting into predatory waters, and I later added that you need justifications as to a price. 

    I never said the poster IS breaking the law, you read that into my writings as you wanted to.

    My statements are to point out that selling at some significantly higher price than something is actually worth is getting into predatory practices, obviously you didn't read the links I took an hour to find for you. 

    No, you have not done enough research on your own, you tend to look for things that justify your thinking more than taking everything in consideration, giving other aspects of a topic due consideration with an open mind. 

    You want me to give you a statute that says "selling a property for more than 25% of its value is predatory dealing" That doesn't exist, I'm sure. What is mentioned in consumer law is "over pricing" "high mark up" "overvalued" "gouging" "excessive price" understand the concept of the "fair pricing" not a percentage as a trip wire that blows up your position. 

    State laws have set price increases at 10% over market, most of these kick in during declared emergencies, especially for necessary items. I provided a study that included a guy who doubled the price of generators and went to jail after a hurricane. IMO, a generator is not a necessity but a luxury, a home is a necessity or at least a place to live. Apples and oranges.

    IMO, 25% is much higher than 10%. In RE, 10% is rather acceptable.  In an auction environment you can exceed 10, 15 nor maybe 20% of a reasonable estimated market value, but that market is also different, it's not like dealing one on one.

    Predatory waters is my description for acts or attitudes that expose you to much higher risks of violating applicable laws, it's not a law itself (but can be specifically in certain aspects). I also explained or pointed out that the consequences usually arise from torts and civil cases, your "predatory actions" put you into these situations.   

    IMO, based on my widely based experience which is probably close to four times yours, predatory is certainly something a judge understands and will use in evaluating a civil case where their goal is reaching a just solution. Common sense. 

    This ain't the Wild West, the fastest draw does not win in the end anymore.

    I almost mentioned Jerry W. (lawyer for those who don't know) to address your first post Jason, knowing that you would be argumentative as you usually are with your opinions. Misquoting, embellishment of what someone says, nit picking at a number asking for proof, avoiding the bigger picture of a topic or main concerns in order to make your point. I didn't mention Jerry because I know he's busy putting bad guys in jail. 

    I've said enough here, I believe anyone reading will understand the issue and that pricing RE is not just an arbitrary number as to what someone can get out of someone else. Real estate is not a bag of coffee beans or a truck load of shoes, it is treated differently than personal property. 

    Finally Jason, you're in the construction rehab business, I know you try to get every dime you can, but I don't really think that you price your homes at 25% over market value, you're smarter than that, so I really don't understand why you'd object to the thinking that perhaps 25% wasn't reasonable, that in all fairness that would be too high. That at that point, problems could arise, appraisal issues, financing issues and that if you did unload on granny for cash, that someone wouldn't come out of the woodwork raising cane about it. Screwing someone is just screwing someone 

    About the best I'm going to do, no more time on this, you can have the last word. :)      

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y

    So, you're saying he's only breaking the law if the 25% increase is above market value.  Are you forgetting that two sentences later you stated that it WAS above market value -- here are your own words:

    I didn't take anything out of context...you stated that he necessarily paid market value, so the 25% was over market value.  

    So, back to my question about you justifying that statement...

    You're correct...I didn't address those links.  Let's do that now:

    http://www.hoodwinkedhouse.com/real-estate-fraud-t...

    This is about "predatory remodeling," where the investor commits fraud by doing a crappy remodeling job.  That's not at all what we're talking about on this thread.

    http://www.lonestarlandlaw.com/deceptive-trade-pra...

    Did you read the list of things this law covers?  Did you see ANYTHING that mentions selling above market value?  Nope.  This is all about deceptive trade practices (essentially, "lying to the buyer")...we're not talking about that on this thread.

    https://www.nclc.org/images/pdf/udap/report_50_sta...

    You clearly didn't read your own link here.  This document is all about how UDAP (Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices) is actually not properly enforced in most states.  This actually argues against your points!

    http://consumer.georgia.gov/about-us/statutes-we-e...

    This is similar to the Texas one above.  Did you read the list of things this law covers? Did you see ANYTHING that mentions selling above market value? Nope. This is all about deceptive trade practices (essentially, "lying to the buyer")...we're not talking about that on this thread.

    So, you spent an hour finding these resources, and yet none of them are applicable.  If you can't find anything applicable to the discussion with an hour of research, you should probably consider that you ARE WRONG.

    And btw, now you've just wasted my time reading this links that you clearly didn't even read yourself (especially the one that argues against you).  

    How is that relevant to this discussion?  Was there a declared emergency here?  I mentioned this earlier -- this falls under price gouging, where there is a supply/demand imbalance.  That's not what we're talking about here.
      

    And with that much experience, you can't provide even a single relevant link to something that addresses the illegality of selling real estate for more than you buy it for.

    In all your time dealing with predatory practices in real estate, I imagine you encountered plenty of examples of a judge ruling against an investor for buying a property and selling it above market value without any value add (without deceptive practices)?  

    Give us the case references. 

    If you can't do that, again, you're just spouting an opinion that you can't support.  And again, there's nothing wrong with that...but at least admit it.

    You won't find a single example of anything I've ever posted here on BP that I've claimed was fact without supplying reasonable evidence to support my assertions (except maybe that assertion itself :-).   If I can't supply the support to go with my claims, I'm happy to admit that they were just my beliefs -- I don't expect anyone to take my word for something just because I say it.  I always invite people to question my assertions of fact. 

    There's too much crap floating around about what's legal and what's not when it comes to investing...why muddy the waters even more?

  • Homeowner · VISTA, CA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 340 votes
    10y

    Not a bad strategy. But as destressed and sell as distressed. Only in LV could you pull this off nowadays. It wouldn't happen in Cali I'm sure.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    From your link:

    I don't think anyone is arguing with this -- if you get a fraudulent appraisal and present it to the seller as accurate, you've committed fraud.  If the appraisal (or you) indicates you did renovations, but you didn't, you've committed fraud.  If you indicate that you've done a large number of renovations and have only done a small number, you've committed fraud.

    As far as I can tell in this thread, the poster didn't get a fraudulent appraisal and in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY misrepresented anything to his buyer.  He didn't say he did renovations, I assume -- so clearly he didn't misrepresent those either.  It doesn't sound like he misrepresented anything to his buyer.

    So again, your link is irrelevant to this discussion and in no way supports that simply selling a property for 25% more than you bought it for represents an illegal activity -- as you seem to think.

    Feel free to try again...

  • Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes
    10y

    Back to the original poster's (@Jack R.) question:  To me, there should be no "conundrum.  You should always give your buyer value for his money.  That necessitates buying low enough to facilitate that. If you can not purchase the house at a price that allows you to give good value to your buyer and still make a good return on your investment, then you shouldn't  make the purchase.  

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @J Scott

    The way I see it, 

    if a seller had a $100K ARV house needing $10K in work,

    Listed it for $90 and failed to sell with an agent

    Then...

    A  wholesaler offered and closed the seller for 50K

    That is a legal transaction all day.  No foul.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    From your link:

    I don't think anyone is arguing with this -- if you get a fraudulent appraisal and present it to the seller as accurate, you've committed fraud.  If the appraisal (or you) indicates you did renovations, but you didn't, you've committed fraud.  If you indicate that you've done a large number of renovations and have only done a small number, you've committed fraud.

    As far as I can tell in this thread, the poster didn't get a fraudulent appraisal and in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY misrepresented anything to his buyer.  He didn't say he did renovations, I assume -- so clearly he didn't misrepresent those either.  It doesn't sound like he misrepresented anything to his buyer.

    So again, your link is irrelevant to this discussion and in no way supports that simply selling a property for 25% more than you bought it for represents an illegal activity -- as you seem to think.

    Feel free to try again...

      an you understand one sentence?

    "Property flipping becomes illegal and a fraud for profit scheme when a home is purchased and resold within a short time frame at an artificially inflated value."

    There was a freaking period at the end of that sentence, that means in freaking English, that thought or statement stands alone.  It is not connected with any other condition, doesn't just apply to yellow houses, or any appraisal, it's any freaking property that is artificially inflated!

    Trying to tie that to appraisals is pretty much irrelevant. 

    He doesn't have to misrepresent anything, the mere fact that the price is inflated stands alone. 

    If you don't get that, I feel sorry for you. 

    Jason, you'd argue with a tree till the leaves fell off and start again in the spring. I'm not a tree!  :)

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    He doesn't have to misrepresent anything, the mere fact that the price is inflated stands alone. 

    What are you talking about?

    He said in the very first post that the ARV is $440,000 and that it would take $50,000 to get the house to that value. It would be easy to argue that a fair market value is the ARV minus the cost to get the property to ARV -- which would be $390,000.

    He's selling it for $375,000.  The price isn't inflated whatsover.  For a homeowner willing to do the work, the price is actually pretty good.

    And this is the typical wholesale model in real estate.  Buy low, and sell below market value to another investor who does renovation work and sells AT market value.

    Let's go back to my question that I posed twice that you never answered:

    If a car dealer buys a car for $X at wholesale and sells it for 1.5 times more than $X, is that predatory?  Is the market value of the car $X because that's what the dealer bought it for?

    If a retailer buys a commodity for $X at wholesale and then sells it for 2 times $X, is that predatory?  Is the market value of the commodity $X because the retailer bought it for that?

    How about the fact that Barnes & Noble sells books for 20-30% more than Amazon...I assume the Amazon price is market value, so is Barnes & Noble being predatory?

    If these industries can mark up wholesale prices by 20%, 50% or 100%, why can't a real estate investor?  Why is the real estate investor being predatory and the other businesses aren't?

    Why is market value the wholesale price for real estate but the retail value is market price for other commodities?

    Are you going to duck this question again?

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y

    Bill -

    I'll send you a PM with an idea I have...

  • Real Estate Agent · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    "Property flipping becomes illegal and a fraud for profit scheme when a home is purchased and resold within a short time frame at an artificially inflated value."

    The key word is artificial which as the next sentence says The flip typically involves a fraudulent appraisal

    There is nothing wrong with buying a property and selling it for $50k or $100k profit if there is no scheme to create an artificial value. False claims,acting in cahoots with other parties,appraiser realtors etc.

    there's a multiple number of reasons why someone would pay a large increase on property that have nothing to do with schemes or artificial plots to escalate a price 

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    "Property flipping becomes illegal and a fraud for profit scheme when a home is purchased and resold within a short time frame at an artificially inflated value."

    The key word is artificial which as the next sentence says The flip typically involves a fraudulent appraisal

    There is nothing wrong with buying a property and selling it for $50k or $100k profit if there is no scheme to create an artificial value. False claims,acting in cahoots with other parties,appraiser realtors etc.

    there's a multiple number of reasons why someone would pay a large increase on property that have nothing to do with schemes or artificial plots to escalate a price 

     So, Steve, you think a property must be appraised by an honest appraisal to constitute or prove a property value is artificially inflated? 

    If I grossly inflate a price and talk someone into buying it, they get a loan from family, the property never gets appraised, did they get messed over?

    I know, that's the dream of most here, you do not have to be in cahoots with anyone else to misrepresent a price. 

    We aren't talking about a wise buyer who understands value and pays more because they can afford to because of other intrinsic values to them, we're talking about Joe Public who is led to believe the price is reasonable when in fact it is not.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free enterprise, open markets, but there is a line not to cross in dealing fairly with Joe Public, especially in real estate. 

    The same thing can happen on the buy side, buying from an unknowing uniformed owner who might be led to believe the property is worth much less than it is. (That seems to be the goal of some investors). You make your money in real estate on the buy side, then sell at market value, but you can be unethical or fraudulent in buying as well. And you can do that all by yourself, you don't need to be in cahoots with others. 

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^FOR STEVEN^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Everyone;

    Newbies and seasoned investors and operators, there are four underlying factors of real property. Most can't name them, they are usually in Chapter One in a formal real estate educational setting. They are; Demographics, Interest Rates, Economic Conditions and Government. I'm not going through these factors, just touching on Demographics.

    Valuations begin with demographics, the population of a geographical area, the social make up, the expectations of that society and their demands. 

    From there we get Economic Concepts, Demand, Utility, Scarcity and Transferability 

    Then we have Legal Concepts of real property. Won't go into that here either.

    Then we have Social Concepts of real property. 

    Real estate is a necessity for society, it is not a luxury item, (can be) but in fills a basic human needs. 

    In our economy and in our laws social needs and expectations are the foundation of concepts. 

    This is why real estate, which is scarce, is treated differently than personal property, it is not like a car or boat or your RV. It is the social requirements that make real estate unique.

    Your dealings in real estate are not like a car dealer, who is not under the economic, social and legal restrictions of real property. 

    Investors or operators with the mind set of doing business in real property as if it were personal property are misinformed and incorrect in their approach to the industry. 

    Understand it or not, social factors effect your marketing, pricing, demand, desires for your properties or services, demographics and your market. Without Chapter One or the Introduction of social influences you can't really advance into any of these other areas. 

    So, what everyone here is most interested in, where's the money in knowing this stuff?

    Chances are, you already apply social factors without realizing it, your mind isn't digging that deep when you look at a property, you make a snap decision on marketability, social acceptance, demographics in your initial analysis. A better understanding will help you in identifying a good deal, that's money.  

    One of the most profitable things to do is to recognize a higher and best use and change the zoning. If you don't understand the social aspects, demographics and governmental influences you won'tn get far in making some quicker money legally.

    Another area is revitalization and rehabilitation of property, that is what flippers are doing. They are playing in the social aspects of the market, adding acceptable value to a property. 

    As a Landlord, would you paint a small bedroom light pink with white trim? You might if your target market were college girls, at a nearby girls school! Social aspects again.

    Property owners have social responsibilities, most slumlords ignore them, but those who recognize social responsibilities generally enjoy better appreciation of their property. Values are higher. 

    There was a podcast on BP about an apartment buyer, they were saying he was very successful, he said the first thing to look at was demographics, that is the social side again that is the basis for forced appreciation. 

    So, to bring this full circle, real estate is not a personal property widget, real estate valuation is different, there is a social requirement, that is usually underscored by government regulations and laws. 

    Look to our Constitution, rights of property ownership is sacred, that's why it's protected and regulated as it is. 

    In law, a seller is favored over a buyer, that is based in our ownership rights and the equity held is the same to an owner as money in his bank account. Misleading an owner as to value is pretty much the same as stealing money from his ban account. Misleading a buyer is the same thing. 

    In real estate we usually have a margin between a fair price to a seller and the price to a buyer at market value. We can make more when we add value to the property. And, BTW, your services do not add value to real property unless it's labor in connection with the physical improvement made.  

    Hopefully, the take away here is to understand that dealing in real property is not like dealing in personal property. The social, economic and legal aspects are much different because of the nature of real property. Property valuations are anchored in these aspects, once we understand how these aspects interact we can then look to what we can do to profit from a property, taking all three aspects into account. 

    Acting legally, ethically and professionally simply requires a basic knowledge of real estate, the roots of the industry. :) 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 35 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Back to the original poster's (@Jack R.) question:  To me, there should be no "conundrum.  You should always give your buyer value for his money.  That necessitates buying low enough to facilitate that. If you can not purchase the house at a price that allows you to give good value to your buyer and still make a good return on your investment, then you shouldn't  make the purchase.  

     I have a tendency to agree with Art, if you add value, then you are earning your money. At the same time, if you can buy it right, you can always sell it right! The bottom line, is that you always have to be able to live with the consequences of your actions, assuming that you have a conscience. The seller we purchased the house from wanted out. The home as was an expensive albatross around her neck, she barley could afford to pay the power bill!!

    Yes, I am going to take the offer, because hopefully if we close, what we know with a fair degree of certainty what we make. And Yes the margins on this deal are slim, but they can be on all deals. If it was easy then everybody would be doing it. Oh wait everyone is?

    Sorry just a dig at the TV Shows and get rich quick guys.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    If I grossly inflate a price and talk someone into buying it, they get a loan from family, the property never gets appraised, did they get messed over?

    Again, you're making up story-lines here...

    Who said anything about "talk someone into buying it?"  The poster marketed the property, found a willing buyer at the price, and agreed to sell the property at that price.  By most definitions, that price is now market value -- there was no coercion, no fraud committed, no "talking someone into" anything.


  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    If I grossly inflate a price and talk someone into buying it, they get a loan from family, the property never gets appraised, did they get messed over?

    Again, you're making up story-lines here...

    Who said anything about "talk someone into buying it?"  The poster marketed the property, found a willing buyer at the price, and agreed to sell the property at that price.  By most definitions, that price is now market value -- there was no coercion, no fraud committed, no "talking someone into" anything.

    Out of context, I was addressing Steve's point.

    When you took your real estate examine years ago, you were exposed to the accepted social aspects of real estate. Why real estate is different in law and in society than personal property, such as cars or bean futures. I believe you either didn't accept the importance of real property to the economy and our society or you have forgotten about it. Real estate is not a widget, nor does it trade in a widget like market nor is it comparable to non-essential items, like a car or boat. A widget marketing mentality is out of place in real estate. 

    You are also aware that the definition of market value in real estate is more complex than that you just mentioned as applicable to the sale of a widget. That's just playing games.

    Jason, we've been over this before in past years, we both know, or at least I believe, your opinions as to markets, prices and dealings goes to the root of your social and political views of very limited government, no interference and every man for himself. Reality isn't like that and frankly, it's not going to be. If anything, our world will become more regulated. I'd like to see less regulation in many areas, but I really doubt I'll be appointed King, so we need to deal with what we can deal with. 

    Your opinion requires that we simply do away with a fundamental aspect of real estate, being social, economic and the legal aspects. All three go hand in hand, you can't simply select one or two aspects and play the game without being called out by authorities.  

    Look at it as a rule, artificially inflating the price of a property over its estimated or reasonable market value is not an acceptable business practice, at least for honest and ethical dealers. I didn't make this stuff up Jason, I'm a messenger from experience.  :) 

    PS. Thought you had an idea that you were going to PM me with.......

    Maybe in time your attitude will come around, maybe not, but mine sure isn't going where yours seems to be. Think we can stop this now :)

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
    When you took your real estate examine years ago, you were exposed to the accepted social aspects of real estate. Why real estate is different in law and in society than personal property, such as cars or bean futures. I believe you either didn't accept the importance of real property to the economy and our society or you have forgotten about it. Real estate is not a widget, nor does it trade in a widget like market nor is it comparable to non-essential items, like a car or boat. A widget marketing mentality is out of place in real estate. 

    Again, you're providing fluff without any support for what you claim is a legal basis.  Lots of words...no substance...

    Let's make this easy...

    Point me to ONE legal case where a wholesaler was penalized specifically for buying a property for cash and turning around and reselling it at a higher price to another investor (without committing any other violations, like fraud or brokering without a license).

    If you can't provide even a single example, I think it's safe to say -- STATISTICALLY, not just my opinion -- that this doesn't need to be a serious concern for wholesalers.

    Until then, it's just opinion without any substantiation...

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