HELOC as alternative to conventional fixed mtg...

HELOC as alternative to conventional fixed mtg...

Investor · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 18 votes

This is a bit long so.... I am wondering if any of the BP members have heard anything about using a HELOC to replace a fixed or traditional mortgage??

I recently came across a u tube video of a fellow in Hawaii whose name is Santos Kidd.  He apparently has some kind of financial consulting company there.  He is also affiliated with the"Rinatus" organization....  Rinatus appears to be a  RE coaching organization...   There is another guy who is marketing what seems like a similar concept who has a nice video, I can't find his site at the moment....

The essence of the "program" as I understand it is to acquire a HELOC loan to replace an existing conventional fixed rate mortgage. The net effect of such a program is a drastic reduction in the term of the conventional loan due to many thousands of dollars otherwise paid in interest are saved as a result of the rapid pay down of principle. With several assumptions, such as, a positive personal income monthly, a property that is appreciating, and diligent adherence to the program an end result is a paid off mortgage is perhaps seven years vs. thirty years.

It seems that the primary benefit is derived by utilizing the floating or variable "average daily balance" which is used for computing minimum payments with an open ended HELOC product..... This allows one to avoid much of the front loaded interest on a conventional loan. The illustrations are very detailed, but I don't pretend to understand it fully, and the proverbial, "If it seems too good to be true it probably is." comes to mind....

Also considered are lower cost to create a HELOC, lower appraisal, escrow, origination fees, other fees, and no PMI.....

I talked with a friend who has been in the mortgage industry for twenty years and is an accountant as well....  He is highly skeptical....  

I appreciate any sage advice from my fellow BP luminaries.......  Knowledge gratefully accepted.

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Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2012 · 506 posts · 331 votes
10y

@Nick Moriwaki PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check out the other thread that people referred you to.  

You seem to be talking about 2 different things here:

1) Having a HELOC as your 1st lien

2) Using a HELOC to save money by using it to pay down your fixed rate mortgage

The threads you've been referred to thoroughly address #2.  #1 is for you to decide if the flexibility is worth it and/or if a bank will lend on something like that.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2015 · 106 posts · 50 votes
    10y

    @Mike Landry, you're exactly right, the benefit is the guaranteed return on investment of interest savings with the ability to liquidate it at any given time. I don't doubt you could easily get higher returns elsewhere, but I would ask if the returns are guaranteed and easily liquidated. Also, the money you save is what I like to call hidden income since money you save is the same as money you earn, but you don't have to pay taxes on it. I think these factors are pretty strong in favor of the HELOC if we're looking at it from an ROI perspective.

    Sorry shouldn't have mentioned that for the purposes of this discussion. Here in Hawaii we have great promo rates so moving the entire balance into a HELOC frees up a lot of extra money to put towards the HELOC and you can do a lot of damage to the balance in the promo period. Most people in Hawaii will attest that if you have a mortgage here you don't have very much extra to feed to the mortgage if you aren't able to liquidate it easily. If I had a choice, I would finance through a HELOC initially.

    The point of the scenario was to demonstrate that you could save X number of interest payments prior to actually using the money.  Heck, in 5 years when you need to dip into your emergency fund not only will you have your income from the past 5 years, you'll also have 5 years of interest payments you didn't have to pay on top of that.  If that's not enough, then you wouldn't have had enough running it your way either.  Then wouldn't you be stuck trying to pull out money at 6% - 15% as well?

  • Realtor/Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 73 votes
    10y

    It works! For 5,000.00 I will tell you the secret lol... j/k... It only Forces discipline and prepayment! Other than that the savings is minimal and your property should be on a long term note if possible at today's rates. Don't pay off your note, this is not wise for many reasons. Instead buy rental property producing more income.  This method only works if you use it in conjunction with timing of bills and credit cards.  Lots of hassle for 20$ a year but my trip to hawaii every 3 years from the credit card bonus points maybe worth it. Much safer and wiser to keep a savings account in case they call the note and ask the 2008 folks how that went. best of luck

  • Stephen RenehanPro Member
    Providence, RI · Member since 2016 · 73 posts · 36 votes
    10y

    Given the length of this thread, I may have missed an earlier remark. While interest rates have been stagnant for a significant number of years, a conventional mortgage would give you a fixed rate over a 15, or 30 year term. A HELOC generally has an adjustable rate so if there was an increase in interest rates, this may not provide the projected savings. If you obtained a conventional loan, but made additional monthly principal payments, wouldn't this also pay down the balance sooner, but without the risk of interest rate changes?

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2015 · 106 posts · 50 votes
    10y

    @Stephen Renehan

    The basis for the HELOC strategy is that you pay it fundamentally different than a mortgage. Because it is a revolving line, you can easily put all your money towards it and then take out what you need when you need it. This lowers the daily balance by which the monthly interest is calculated and this effect over time will drastically reduce the total interest paid.

    Paying extra to your principal will achieve similar results, but as an investor I would think this is the worst way to go because you are tying up your money and need to refinance in order to get access to it.  

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2012 · 506 posts · 331 votes
    10y

    @Nick Moriwaki PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check out the other thread that people referred you to.  

    You seem to be talking about 2 different things here:

    1) Having a HELOC as your 1st lien

    2) Using a HELOC to save money by using it to pay down your fixed rate mortgage

    The threads you've been referred to thoroughly address #2.  #1 is for you to decide if the flexibility is worth it and/or if a bank will lend on something like that.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Jeff Goddard the video misrepresents information and incorrectly implies that the HELOC is the secret sauce in their method. It is the extra principal payments that makes the difference. The fact that you pay it in one lump and then pay back the HELOC gives you no advantage assuming the interest rates are the same. You are just transferring debt.

    Part of the deception in the video is the idea that when you pay a chunk, you "skip" a bunch of payments and "skip" all that interest. It is deceptive because you do NOT skip the payments. You avoid interest on the principal you paid down. But that is only a fraction of what those monthly payments would have been. You only skip part of the interest, so the video speaker is either knowingly lying or is financially illiterate. Pick which you feel is worse! 

    Another lie from the video is the statement that interest is front end loaded on an fixed-rate mortgage. Interest is evenly loaded based on the interest rate and outstanding balance. That is no different than a HELOC. The only difference is a mortgage has a fixed payment versus a HELOC that generally allows you to pay interest only and set your own principal payment. When you prepay principal on your mortgage, the payment stays the same, but the amount going towards principal increases. That is because as the principal decreases, the interest decreases.

    As @Chris May stated, we had a spirited debate over this in another thread and several people mathematically modeled it. It is better to pay an extra monthly principal payment directly to your first mortgage than it is to apply a lump sum from your HELOC and make payments to the HELOC - assuming the HELOC interest rate is the same or higher than your primary mortgage.

    No magic here. Just pay extra principal payments when you can. Having a HELOC to use as a revolving account is more likely to get you further into debt.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2015 · 106 posts · 50 votes
    10y

    @Sean Cole

    I am talking about two different things, mainly because I am more a proponent of #1.  But the question refers to #2, which is why I address it in responses to @Jeff Goddard and @Stephen Renehan. Can you explain what you mean by "if the flexibility is worth it"? By using a HELOC and paying your entire income to it you pay less interest overall and gain financial flexibility to tap into all the money you are paying. What benefits are you gaining by sticking with a conventional mortgage besides a fixed payment? Please refer to my example earlier in this thread regarding a $100K mortgage with $100K in savings and swapping this for $0 debt, $0 savings, and a HELOC to provide funds as needed.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2012 · 506 posts · 331 votes
    10y

    @Nick Moriwaki, all of your questions are answered in the thread you've been directed to. 

    In short, however, you're talking about saving a few dollars a month using your example. Personally, I don't care to pay down debt in the current interest rate environment and would rather have the fixed rate mortgages that are available in the same interest range as a HELOC. I believe 30-year rates are averaging 3.41% or so right now and HELOCs in my neck of the woods are running at P+25bps or more making a HELOC more expensive than a fixed rate mortgage. THAT'S what I'm talking about when I mention "if the flexibility is worth it."

    If you can't get better returns in other investments than the 2.50% or so after-tax interest rate on your HELOC or fixed rate mortgage, then go ahead and pay down.  Too many people look at their financial lives as a bunch of silos when they aren't.  They're all related and you ought to take a holistic view when evaluating whether these schemes are actually worth the trouble.  

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