Do syndicators outperform the average investor?

Do syndicators outperform the average investor?

Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes

I'm wanting to enter a more restful season of life after sprinting hard that last few years. Syndications, in theory, sound like a very attractive option to me. I get how they work, but I wanted to ask you:

1) Do average syndications with seasoned syndicators tend to outperform the average person trying to be a landlord on their own? My biggest mental hurdle is whether the fees a syndicator (rightfully) charges makes it so that passive investors only net marginal returns. Also I'm wondering if syndicators take a bunch of mediocre deals in hit markets like this just to keep their own deal flow and revenue going. 

2) any specific recommendations? I'd love to hear from those who have used syndication model long term. I realize that most of the deals in the last 8 years have all probably been great due to huge market tailwinds. 

The passiveness and quality of life aspects of syndications sound great. I guess I'm trying to quantify how delayed one's "financial freedom" target might be if they use this model as opposed to being very active by themself. 

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Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
7y

@Jason Powell

Full disclosure. I am a syndicator of both investments in performing notes and investments in commercial properties.

I have been investing in real estate and real estate related assets since 1979, so I’ve experienced both booms and busts.

The typical syndications I see use about 50% leverage to obtain 7% current cash on cash return, about 1.5 to 2% loan amortization, and rent increases at current cap rates add another 6-9% to projected returns.

In other words the future returns are based on the real estate market performing as it has since 2008.

Maybe yes, maybe not so much.

The change in tax code in 1987 literally wiped out real estate syndications at the time. So much so that syndicators umbrella association, a par of the National Association of Realtors folded, as membership decreased 90%.

The vast majority of private real estate investment funds, the grandfather of today’s syndications, either went bust or closed their doors in 2008-2009.

Real estate prices in Phoenix, Miami, and Las Vegas fell 60%. Nobody built THAT into their forecasted returns.

So if I were on the other side of the table, I would regard the assumptions made by syndicators (including myself) about sale prices of the subject property 5 years down the road very suspiciously.

I agree with almost all that was said in posts above. However some of the risks of investing in a syndicated investment vs. a property you control have not been sufficiently detailed.

What if we do hit a major real estate recession, and prices drop 20%? The syndicator won’t be able to sell new syndications, so won’t have income from acquisition fees, ongoing management fees for those syndications, and current syndications being underwater won’t have income, realized or unrealized from over ride. Will the syndicator be able, or even be willing to stay in business? If the syndicator folds, what happens to the subject property? I just had a loan request for a large apartment complex where the syndicator went out of business in 2010. Since then the investors had 4 capital calls, received no distributions, and a larger loan was taken out on the property. They are now suing the asset manager they hired in 2010 to replace the syndicator that went out of business.

Being a syndicator, I believe in the advantages of syndications as passive investments. I just don’t think investors realize all the associated risks.

Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell anyone would be happy with the 10-15% passive return if that could be “reasonably guaranteed”. Anyone who could drive to the bank would borrow as much as they could for instant arbitrage. Obviously that rate can’t be “reasonably guaranteed” . A long bull market seems to convince many people that free money opportunities exist.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Matt Millard:

    As an active landlord for over 10 years & a passive syndication investor & startup LLC owner of two businesses I would say syndication is the way to go. Active businesses are more active & enjoyable at times but things like multiple flips can be stressful & demanding especially if you have a family or don't live in a good geographic area for cash flow like DFW or are investing now at the market peak!

    I really like Paul Moore’s articles on Buffett. I am a syndication investor with Paul now & this marks my 7th syndication deal. I like focusing on things you can control like the deal itself, the operator & the type of real estate you can invest in.

    Jeremy Roll also is a great passive investor & has a great investor list & annual dinner. His videos on YouTube on identifying true cash flow passive investments are top notch.

    Also was a regular at Berkshire Hathaway & many of the private parties & enjoy reading Scott Thompson’s book called the Art & Science of Value investing & fellow author Bud Lubitan.

    Syndication investing all the way especially if you can identify returns at 15% or above in any market. Hard to beat that with the tax advantages & capital gains 1031 rollover like Paul’s income fund is set up to do!

    I would have to fight hours of traffic to invest actively where I live in Dallas’s affluent northern suburbs unlike Norman where the cashflow got me started along with timing & being going in college & learning through real life experience!

    Jeremy is the real deal.. !!! as well.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell

    Full disclosure. I am a syndicator of both investments in performing notes and investments in commercial properties.

    I have been investing in real estate and real estate related assets since 1979, so I’ve experienced both booms and busts.

    The typical syndications I see use about 50% leverage to obtain 7% current cash on cash return, about 1.5 to 2% loan amortization, and rent increases at current cap rates add another 6-9% to projected returns.

    In other words the future returns are based on the real estate market performing as it has since 2008.

    Maybe yes, maybe not so much.

    The change in tax code in 1987 literally wiped out real estate syndications at the time. So much so that syndicators umbrella association, a par of the National Association of Realtors folded, as membership decreased 90%.

    The vast majority of private real estate investment funds, the grandfather of today’s syndications, either went bust or closed their doors in 2008-2009.

    Real estate prices in Phoenix, Miami, and Las Vegas fell 60%. Nobody built THAT into their forecasted returns.

    So if I were on the other side of the table, I would regard the assumptions made by syndicators (including myself) about sale prices of the subject property 5 years down the road very suspiciously.

    I agree with almost all that was said in posts above. However some of the risks of investing in a syndicated investment vs. a property you control have not been sufficiently detailed.

    What if we do hit a major real estate recession, and prices drop 20%? The syndicator won’t be able to sell new syndications, so won’t have income from acquisition fees, ongoing management fees for those syndications, and current syndications being underwater won’t have income, realized or unrealized from over ride. Will the syndicator be able, or even be willing to stay in business? If the syndicator folds, what happens to the subject property? I just had a loan request for a large apartment complex where the syndicator went out of business in 2010. Since then the investors had 4 capital calls, received no distributions, and a larger loan was taken out on the property. They are now suing the asset manager they hired in 2010 to replace the syndicator that went out of business.

    Being a syndicator, I believe in the advantages of syndications as passive investments. I just don’t think investors realize all the associated risks.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell

    I like the syndication investment strategy, but I think private investing in smaller local projects works just as well.  As a passive investor whether it is being part of a syndication or smaller projects the returns can be equally lucrative.  I tend to build relationships with private investors and the returns are around 12% cash on cash.  It is still passive and complies with SEC guidelines as part of the 506B exemption of regulation D.  One advantage or disadvantage based on your perspective is you can invest your money in longer term investments with syndication as in 3-5 years or longer while with small private projects are 6 - 12 months at a time.  The great part of passive investing is there are so many ways to park your money and enjoy the returns.  

    As with all investing, whether it is a syndication or small private investing it relies on the reputation and execution of the syndicator or executor of the project.  I have been on both sides. You are putting your faith in the individual they will perform as outlined.

    Do your homework as an investor to place your money and you still need to analyze the investment.

    Love the post Jason.

  • Ian IppolitoBusiness Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell,

    Lots of people have answered your original question. So I will just add quickly: I invest both actively and passively, and I think both have their pluses and minuses with neither 100% superior to the other. For me, a well-balanced portfolio has both, but I also understand that's not for everyone. A lot of the fix and flip, BRRR and other activity discussed here on BP are strategies that are best for people who want a full-time job out of it, and/or are cash poor but time rich. It sounds like this doesn't describe you, in which case a passive investment seems like probably a much better fit.

    To answer your follow-up questions:

    >>Speaking of lack on control on when to sell, do you know, if one receives a check back due to sale of a property, would one be able to 1031 that back into another syndicated deal or private personal dea

    While it's true that a majority of syndications don't allow you to do a 1031 exchange, there is definitely a sizable minority that will. There are some sponsors that even specialize in it since there is a lot of demand for this type of product. A good place to start is 1031Crowdfunding.com. If you have a larger property (over $2 million) there's a conservative multi family sponsor with decades of experience and no investors losses that will do the 1031 exchange essentially "for free" (i.e. not charge any more fees than any other investor in the syndication). If you have a triple net lease that you are selling, Broadstone Net Lease (also full real-estate cycle experience) will let you do an upReit (which is a tax-deferred exchange and the equivalent of a 1031 exchange) into their fund. Etc.

    >>Also, do you all have input on what the minimum investment is typically for a seasoned syndicator with deep experience and track record? I would imagine those folks would want a higher minimum than newbies...?

    Minimums are all over the place and range from as low as $100 (for non-accredited offerings) to $1 million and more. In general, the larger the amount of money the deal has to raise,, the higher the minimum because the legal structures that syndicators use allow only a limited number of investors. (Usually 99 unless you're dealing with a REIT or a much larger syndication). In general, if you have at least $100k to invest, you should be able to get into most of them. If you have less it can be helpful to join an investment club, that can create a feeder fund at say $25k to allow you into the higher minimum fund. Otherwise you may be stuck with smaller deals and arguably some lesser quality sponsors.

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  • Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes
    7y

    @Don Konipol  Wow, fantastic and humbling perspective on risk over a long period of history. At this point in the market, I'm very focused on risk management first, as opposed to potential return. From where we are today, how do you think a passive investor should perform due diligence on deals/syndicators if protection against loss of capital were a #1 priority? I can stomach being stuck in a deal for many years with no cash flow and pathetic returns, but I can't stomach losing all my money due to optimistic underwriting.

    My current thought is to only enter deals that have longer term loans in place and would be able to hold for a long time if necessary without bank calls, do business with syndicators that rode out 2008 with stellar track records, only do deals that have some sort of value add component, and that have a "story" of how/why the deal is notably better than what an average market deal would be.

  • Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes
    7y

    @Ian Ippolito Thanks for the super thorough response! Lots of wisdom in what you're saying. 

  • John FortesPro Member
    Multi-Family Syndicator · Abington, MA · Member since 2017 · 603 posts · 347 votes
    7y

    Most syndicators are sourcing opportunities that seek the most returns for their investors. As a syndicator, your investors are your customers and keeping them happy to come back and invest in your next deal is a big deal for me and many other syndicators. 

    As an investor if the returns make sense and the opportunity is right, why wouldn't I invest in it, as long as I'm vetting the syndicator and team members thoroughly.

  • Ian IppolitoBusiness Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell,

    >>From where we are today, how do you think a passive investor should perform due diligence on deals/syndicators if protection against loss of capital were a #1 priority? I can stomach being stuck in a deal for many years with no cash flow and pathetic returns, but I can't stomach losing all my money due to optimistic underwriting.

    Every investor does it differently because they have different financial situations, goals and risk tolerances. But it sounds like you and are may be very similar. I'm a very conservative investor because I depend on my investments for income for myself and family (I don't have a day job providing income to fall back on). So I may look through a hundred deals a month, and at the end of the year only invest in 4-5. So things that are a red flag for me may be fine for someone more aggressive. Here's how I do my due diligence:

    1) Portfolio matching: (takes 30 seconds per deal)

    a) Have an educated opinion on where you think we are in the real estate cycles (financial and physical market cycles)

    b) Then only then pick the strategies, capital stack, and specialized asset subclasses that make sense for that opinion. For example, I think we are late cycle, so I lean toward the safest part of capital stack which is debt (or debt free equity). I won't go with the riskiest opportunistic strategies, and will stick to core and core plus mostly with some value-added. I won't be investing in the riskiest/most supportable asset subclasses such as hotels, and tilt my portfolio the ones that have historically been more stable such as multifamily and single-family housing. I also don't want refinancing risk, so any deals with only 3 to 5 year debt are out for me. For someone that's not as conservative, or a different view on the next recession, they might have a different opinion than me on all of this

    2) Sponsor quality check: (takes about 45 minutes per deal)

    I believe that a great sponsor can take an average looking deal and make it great, and that in mediocre sponsor can take a fantastic looking deal and make it bad (especially if there is a severe recession). So I start with the sponsor first. Again, others might disagree.

    a) Track Record: Get the entire track record for the strategy. As easy as this sounds, it's not simple and usually like pulling teeth. Many times they will claim it's wonderful and then try to hide their worst deals by only showing completed deals. Make sure to get unexited deals. Or if they are doing value-added multifamily, they will show you their hotel experience. That doesn't cut it for me. I want a specialist that's an expert, and not a jack of all trades and master of none. Also, in a mainstream asset class like value-added multifamily, I see no reason to take a risk on a sponsor that doesn't have full real estate cycle experience and didn't lose money. Again, other might feel differently here.

    b) Skin in the game: as a conservative investor, I understand that the dirty secret of industries that the waterfall compensation is in the line with me and incentivizes sponsors to take more risk. So I require skin in the game (average is 5% to 15%) to offset this. Contrary to popular belief, this is not set because I believe it will give me a higher return. I believe it tends to give me a slightly lower return, because the sponsor is going to be more careful, and if there is a severe downturn will prevent me from taking catastrophic losses. Someone that is more aggressive, may want lesser even though skin in the game. Also, if the sponsor is new, I am fine with less skin in the game as long as it is significant to their net worth. On the other hand if they are a sponsor that is experienced in stopping a skin in the game, that's a huge red flag for me.

    c) how open to scrutiny are they? I always discuss investments with others in an investor club because other people might think of things that I might miss. And even though virtually every sponsor agreement allows me to share investment information with others who might be advising me on it (especially when club members are bound by an NDA), I still ask the sponsor if I can share it, because it's a test. Most are fine with that, but a few will have problems with it and claim there are legal issues, etc.. That's a red flag for me.

    d) death by Google: I Google everything I can about the sponsor. I check the SEC, FINRA, ratings websites for inside information on the principals in the company. I also look for lawsuits and see what happened in them. Many times it's an easy red flag. Sometimes it's ambiguous, but even then, why should I bother with the company that has numerous unresolved lawsuits, versus another company that is virtually the same but has none. Again, others might feel differently here.

    3) property level due diligence: (takes seconds to weeks per deal): here is where I drill in with the low-level details.

    a) pro forma popping: I examine all the assumptions, and see if they are overoptimistic or not. I look at every single item in the pro forma and imagine that it is complete BS, and see if I can challenge it. If there's a hole, it may be a red flag.

    b) sensitivity analysis: I examine all the assumptions, and make sure I can live with the worst case scenarios.

    c) "Stall and see": if they are getting money over multiple years, and there is no penalty for investing later, I would usually wait so I get some real performance data, versus having to look at theoretical pro forma information.

    d) Recession stress test: I will not invest in anything, until I subject it to recession level stress and see if I can live with the result. And I take the worst recession I can find in the recent past. Sometimes there is only great recession data, and that recession was pretty mild on some asset classes, versus previous recessions. So I will usually 1.5x or 2.0x the stress. If the deal collapses and I would lose everything, I'm out. Others might be fine with taking risk, but least by doing this a person can get an idea of what might go wrong.

    e) Legal document analysis: it will usually take a few days to go through the legal document properly, as almost inevitably there are tons of gotchas that either have to be explained, or mitigated with a side letter.

    That is the very short summary of what I do. If you want more information, p.m. me and I can give you a lot more details.

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  • Investor / Syndicator · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 220 votes
    7y

    Many syndications can achieve double digit returns quite easily. (I mean Average Annual Returns which include the distributions of cash flow and the profit at sale averaged across the hold period). I've seen many hit in the range of 17-22%. For starters, and given the high emphasis most of us make on preservation of capital, we all agree this model trounces the risk/reward proposition offered us by Wall Street. But in terms of how it compares to direct investing? That depends entirely on how much value you place on your time. Early RE investors overlook this, but as you grow you place a higher value on your time. If by direct investing you're achieving returns marginally better than with a syndication, then you're better investing in a syndication in my view. But if you have good deal flow and can beat a syndication return by a significant margin AND you've factored in your time as a cost, then go that route. 

  • Rental Property Investor · NJ/PA · Member since 2016 · 555 posts · 149 votes
    7y

    How to find good syndicators ?  How many are there in each state ?

  • Rental Property Investor · Ramsey, NJ · Member since 2016 · 72 posts · 55 votes
    7y

    Looks like the community has covered the hell out of this topic. Just to add my $.02, I think of it more as a matter of portfolio design, which has alot to do with how much cash/assets you have. 

    If you have enough so that a 10-15% return would provide you the lifestyle you want, I would rely more on (expert) syndicators. 

    If you are not far off from financial independence but still need some growth, you'll want to leverage sweat equity with a portion of your assets to foster higer growth. But it's best to focus on where you can generate the best return, which may not be real estate. 

    If you're at the very beginning of your journey, you'd want to focus on only what gets you the best result and not sink money into distractions. 

    Also it's important to consider how late we are in the cycle, how compressed cap rates are, and how many "coaching students" there are driving up prices. Does your sponsor count on a year-4 refi to 75% ltv? What happens if we're in interest rate hell by then? Have they been through a recession without losing investor principal? Remember once you become an LP, you give up control. 

  • Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 611 votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell

    I look at syndications for personal investing alot like stocks versus mutual funds. Do you want to be in control or do you want to sit back and forget about your investment after underwriting it in the beginning. There are too many factors to say which way to go but it sounds like based on your reasoning and questioning you are leaning towards investing passively.

  • Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes
    7y

    @Ian Ippolito Wow, fantastic response on how to perform due diligence as a passive syndication investor. I feel like BP should make that into an info-graphic or something. I share just about all of the core beliefs and opinions that you outlined. The toughest part for me would be the legal doc analysis. It's nice to have controlled my own deals up unto this point so I have at least some basis for much of the other due diligence and underwriting.

    Right now, due to shared late market cycle concern, I'm gravitating towards all new investment dollars split equally between 1) Cash/MM  2) Safer Senior loans (although I hate the taxes on this one) and 3) MHP and SS syndications

  • Ian IppolitoBusiness Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Jason Powell,   Thanks Jason.

    >>Right now, due to shared late market cycle concern, I'm gravitating towards all new investment dollars split equally between 1) Cash/MM 2) Safer Senior loans (although I hate the taxes on this one) and 3) MHP and SS syndications

    Yes I am also very heavy in cash and I also like conservative (65% LTV or less, first position, nonjudicial states only) loans. However, in my portfolio loans are number #3 and #2 is no debt equity in single-family residential rentals (which I directly own in my own city). I feel like the lack of debt makes it a very strong core holding in a downturn. #4 is NNN (triple net lease) in recession resistant/Amazon resistant categories (medical, quick service restaurants, industrial) using conservative debt and #5 is very conservatively underwritten and financed multifamily. If you'd like more info, PM me directly.

    >>The toughest part for me would be the legal doc analysis. It's nice to have controlled my own deals up unto this point so I have at least some basis for much of the other due diligence and underwriting

    If you join a good investor club, you can get help on this for people with more expertise and/or experience. PM me if you want more details on this as well.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Glen Rock, NJ · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Ethan,

    You can find a ton of good syndicators on BP and through local REI clubs. As a matter of fact, we run a local REI meetup right in your backyard. You're welcome to find more info under my profile and join us.


    Originally posted by @David Smith:

    How to find good syndicators ?  How many are there in each state ?

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Almost all the responses here are pro syndication (albeit cautiously.) So let's look at the other side. *If* your current investments are in quality locations that should have good long term appreciation (metro Portland for example), then I'd consider hanging on to them. You could always consider off loading tenant management to a property manager as an alternative. The liberal political bend of Oregon, while sounding bad intrinsically, can actually become a benefit long term- rent control has a wonderful way of decreasing new housing supply, plus some tenants hog existing units (further restraining supply), so vacant units go for a premium, etc. Rents in San Francisco have escalated significantly, due in no small part to rent control. Also renovations/expansions/etc., BRRRR, can add a lot of value (but do require time and local market expertise.). Basically, you need to be in prime urban markets to maximize these benefits. Owning RE in low cost, low appreciation markets will not get you top results. Personally I've made a killing in San Francisco with these strategies, so it's very hard for me to fathom giving up direct control, at least at this time...maybe when I'm much older or my wife has to deal with all this stuff...

    A couple other ideas not mentioned are- buying NNN properties (hands off, can be stable, but you still control the asset and associated decisions.) But generally NNN will have lower returns, unless you value add, and then it's not so passive anymore.

    Lastly, for 1031 exchange purposes you could get into DST's which are basically syndications, but you can 1031 in and out of them, as you own a portion of the RE directly. There are others here with direct DST experience that can speak more to this.

    Happy investing. 

  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Amit M. Thank you for your astute comments about how rent controls primarily increase rents, rather than hold them stable. Turns out, limiting supply has the impact of increasing prices! Who knew???

    Are you still able to find decent cash flow on deals in SF? I would expect it to be priced in to the deals and then some, where all buyers are banking on appreciation (something I rather prefer to avoid)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Taylor L. sure, buildings cash flow no problem in San Francisco...as long as you can put 40% down ;). Basically you need to already have money to invest in SF. 

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