Investing retirement funds

Investing retirement funds

Austin, TX · Member since 2012 · 7 posts · 1 vote

I have a client interested in investing their retirement funds from a 401k. They want me to invest their money through an LLC. I will consult a lawyer, but before committing time- maybe you guys have some advice. I do not want to be liable if someone sues, so that would be out of the question.

Here's how I think it works: I make an LLC, with just myself as a member, then my clients sign a contract with your LLC -- they don't actually become members. The contract is for each specific deal, and it specifies all the terms. Once the contract is signed, they can send the LLC the money, and then you buy the property on behalf of the LLC.

Advice? Resources I can read? Not even sure what this is normally referred to?

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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
13y

Ok, off topic, but since it was brought up, you CAN have 401k loans on a 15 year amortization and it is simple and easy to make it against your primary residence, though it does not have to be.
As far as the payback, Scott mentioned that part was not told. First off, I will argue that we called it a loan, not a gift and thus, loans must be paid back.
The good part is that you can likely borrow for 4% or less, paying yourself back (your 401k to be exact) and then invest same funds at higher returns keeping that profit legally outside the 401k.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Richie, there are many IRS rules and guidelines involving self directed retirement accounts. Many discussions are right here on BP, I can also personally assist you with that.

    As far as your client is concerned, please define what service you currently provide to your "client". Some service providers to retirement account holders are disqualified parties such as plan administrators, CPA's, etc.

    Secondly, if you want to have your clients funds placed into your own projects, that is one thing. If you want to have those funds placed in projects not belonging to you, that is another.

    If you can be more specific, I can better assist you.

    Will Barnard
    (email in signature)

  • Riverside, CA · Member since 2012 · 23 posts · 5 votes
    13y

    Hi Richie,

    Are you referring to a checkbook-IRA?

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    13y

    In addition to Will's input, you probably can't do this with a 401k at all. 401k custodians rarely allow anything except a small list of mutual funds. So, the first question is whether or not you can get this money moved into a SDIRA. You usually cannot do that if you're still employed with the company with the 401k.

    Assuming you're not a disqualified party w.r.t. the IRA, by far the easiest way to do this is with a loan. The IRA simply makes a loan to your LLC, secured by the property. Your LLC (which I assume owns the property), gives the IRA a deed of trust (or mortgage, depending on the state) and a promissory note that outlines the terms. Payments and payoff go to the IRA (not the holder of the IRA!)

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Great point Jon. If it is in fact a 401k at a current employer and it can not be transfered out, then the ONLY option is for your client to utilize the 401k borrowing provisions which allow up to $50,000 max loan amount. The loan of course must be paid back with interest, however, usually, the 401k plan can be borrowed at 4% or less, then loaned out at a higher rate, the lender keeps the spread.

    I can also teach people how to get a great tax benefit legally in this very same process.

  • Investor · North Idaho · Member since 2011 · 332 posts · 107 votes
    13y

    Will and Jon are right on track...

    Back up a second though. Where do you fit to gain from this transaction?

    If the client's 401k is sitting with a past employer OR he/she is over 59.5, the funds won't have a problem rolling into an SDIRA. Moving the funds is definitely step 1. This process alone can take between 1-4 weeks and depends primarily on the turnaround time of the 401k provider. Spend some timing learning about the logistics so that you can get ahead of the curve.

    I'm not an attorney and can't give legal advice but if you're managing an LLC for someone else, I'm pretty sure that puts you in a fiduciary role? Anyone care to comment on that?

    Depending on how your deal is structured, it might be much easier for you and the client to use an SDIRA to invest directly. Instead of involving an LLC for the SDIRA, allow the SDIRA to purchase the asset directly (or partner). Doing this would certainly alleviate liability on your part. If you needed operating cash for repairs, etc. - the SDIRA could always front you a buffer of cash to get things done.

    Hope this works out for you Richie.

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    13y

    the part they don't tell you is that 401k loan you take out is due in 5 years.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Scott W.:
    the part they don't tell you is that 401k loan you take out is due in 5 years.

    The term can be longer if you use the proceeds to buy a home. Not sure if you must use the home as your primary residence, though.

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    13y

    Jon Klaus gotta be a primary. and i ** think ** it's still 5 years but not positive.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Scott W.:
    Jon Klaus gotta be a primary. and i ** think ** it's still 5 years but not positive.

    I'm borrowing 15 years from my Solo K on my primary, blessed by Equity Trust and my CPA.

  • Investor · North Idaho · Member since 2011 · 332 posts · 107 votes
    13y

    Normally it's five years but certain things like 'home purchases' can extend beyond the first five.

    Let's not get carried away though. I doubt that Richie's clients want to borrow against their 401k to make this investment.

    Richie?

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Yeah, we are veering a bit off topic, but still in the same neighborhood.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Ok, off topic, but since it was brought up, you CAN have 401k loans on a 15 year amortization and it is simple and easy to make it against your primary residence, though it does not have to be.
    As far as the payback, Scott mentioned that part was not told. First off, I will argue that we called it a loan, not a gift and thus, loans must be paid back.
    The good part is that you can likely borrow for 4% or less, paying yourself back (your 401k to be exact) and then invest same funds at higher returns keeping that profit legally outside the 401k.

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