World Wide Dream Builders (WWDB) - Amway
Investor · Wichita, KS · Member since 2017 · 133 posts · 41 votes
World Wide Dream Builders (WWDB) - Amway
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China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y@Dustin Burke Amway, Herbalife and their ilk absolutely are pyramid schemes.
They make a good chunk of their money by pitching a never ending stream of newbies who have not yet figured out the scam. That's how they stay in business - not by supplying needed goods at a competitive price.
Think about it - if you're selling something these days, there are dozens, if not hundreds of places you can buy online. So unless you're selling things that you can't get somewhere else, you're selling a commodity.
Example: Let's say you're the 15th guy representing a paper clip manufacturer and you're calling on Staples, trying to win their business.
What's unique about your company's paper clips? Nothing. All 15 competitors' paper clips look, feel and function the same. They all hold your papers together. They are a commodity.
How do people selling commodities compete? Price. It's a race to the bottom to see who can sell for the lowest price.
What does Amway need to pay people several layers deep? High sales prices. That money has to come from somewhere!
See the mismatch there? Amway might have branded products, but they're not unique. You'll be selling a commodity - and, by the way, you'll be competing with Amazon too.
On top of all that, if you really plan to sell for Amway, you'll have to pitch everybody who knows your name. "Buy my stuff! Become an "Amway entrepreneur!"
You'll be the guy that everybody hates to see walking toward them. Family and friends will avoid you like you're radioactive.
Buy hey, maybe you don't want all those friends anyway!
56 Replies
- Muskego, WI · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 3 votes7y
@Rob Massopust not forcing anyone? Like the government forcing people to buy Health insurance?
Look, I don’t disagree that higher level distributors make a good portion of money off of functions, speaking engagements and tools. But nobody is forced to buy them. They are highly suggested and yes in some cases presented as the only way to be successful. Again, that is the ethics of the person presenting it, not some sort of Amway policy. People either don’t know or don’t understand the concept and difference of the company vs independent distributors and training organizations. The entire reason for training organizations is to present those materials. Don’t want to, don’t have to. The unscrupulous distributors or “upline” are those that won’t help someone without them purchasing those items. Admittedly it happens way too often. But the flip side is that most people aren’t taught to think like entrepreneurs and are not in positive situations on a daily basis in their work environment. And most won’t motivate themselves to change that.
- Muskego, WI · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 3 votes7y
@Mike Freske there is a lot of misinformation in your post.
First off, you make ZERO money for signing people up in their own business. ALL money is made off of product sales and bonuses related to the sales in your group.
Also, the books are MANY of the same motivational and business related books that are recommended on this site and by many other successful people.
The seminars are absolutely for motivational purposes. Is that any different than a large insurance company doing the same? The audio information and some materials are absolutely based on information related to that specific business, just as those that run this site offer training materials and webinars for real estate.
And the only “bottom” is comprised of those that are inactive. Any person, regardless of when they got in or who is “up line” from them can surpass those in earlier or “above” them.
- Real Estate Broker · Santa Ana CA [South Coast Metro] · Member since 2016 · 459 posts · 202 votes7y
Originally posted by @Christopher Thorin:
@Rob Massopust not forcing anyone? Like the government forcing people to buy Health insurance?
Look, I don’t disagree that higher level distributors make a good portion of money off of functions, speaking engagements and tools. But nobody is forced to buy them. They are highly suggested and yes in some cases presented as the only way to be successful. Again, that is the ethics of the person presenting it, not some sort of Amway policy. People either don’t know or don’t understand the concept and difference of the company vs independent distributors and training organizations. The entire reason for training organizations is to present those materials. Don’t want to, don’t have to. The unscrupulous distributors or “upline” are those that won’t help someone without them purchasing those items. Admittedly it happens way too often. But the flip side is that most people aren’t taught to think like entrepreneurs and are not in positive situations on a daily basis in their work environment. And most won’t motivate themselves to change that.
Ok man calm down. You are obviously committed to it so good luck with that.
- Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 46 votes7y
@Dustin Burke
I’ve been to some multiple level marketing meet ups and the atmosphere I experienced was very concerning, way too much enthusiasm and excitement. Very cult-like and I decided it was not for me. People become sheep and just follow whatever drivel is being shoveled. Just go online and google any of these types of companies, the truth comes out.
Funny how the ones who buy into these companies are the most defensive....red flag here. Don’t drink the Cool-aid. Lol
- Specialist · College Station, TX · Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 11 votes7y
@Dustin Burke
It's a pyramid scheme and a cult.
I know a few people that tried it and 2 of the three went into debt. The third caught on right away and switched to real estate.
The "training" is no better than reading the books that are always suggested across BP
- Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes7y
@Christopher Thorin just for your info, heres a $50 million settlement by Amway, and the lawsuit was filed by former "distributors", aka employees.
https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2010/11/amway_agrees_to_pay_56_million.html
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes7y
@Jason D. technically Amway is not a pyramid scheme, although the structure is multi level so people think of it as a pyramid. The reason it isn't classified as a scheme is because the higher levels make money from the sale of products, not from fees paid in by new recruits. If it is considered a scheme, then there is not products and it is fees paid by new levels.
There is lots of direct marketing businesses that have been around forever (Amway, Tupperware, Magic Chef, Mary Kay). They all have the same kind of format where you try mainly sell to friends/coworkers/relatives and then try to recruit them to sell. The reason people detest these businesses is you are sucked into a situation where you feel pressured to buy because of the relationship with the business owner. Often this leads to lost friendships and you "avoid" that person and their "parties".
The few successful people can make lots of money. They are good sales people and I would argue they would be better off in real estate or some other profession that can pay even more. Most fail and alienate people around them in the process.
In the age of the internet, most consumers are shopping online. Arguably the MLM products are all overpriced compared to other options.
There are many main stream businesses that pay higher levels on sales from lower level recruits. I could even mention a real estate company or two that operate this way. The big difference is that they don't rely on friends/family to push products and they are focused more on selling, less recruiting.
For people who want to sell products, my advice is look into selling on eBay or Amazon. Another option is affiliate marketing. These are both better options because they are e-based businesses and you sell things people want, plus you are not selling to friends/family. You are promoting products out on the internet.
Obviously anyone who works for Amway or an MLM will argue some of what I am saying, but I think my perspective represents the majority of people. If it works for you, who cares what I say.
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Mike Freske:
Madoff was a Ponzi scheme - he was using new investor money to pay old investors some "profit."
There is no question that MLM can be described as a pyramid scheme. A person makes more money on bringing people in as opposed to the selling of the actual product. If the products were so great a person would just sell those products 24/7 instead of spending so much time recruiting others under them. Many of these companies make lots of money on selling books and tapes and weekend conventions to get people riled up and motivated. The material doesn't actually teach anything, it just talks about some random "diamond" and how you too can be a diamond..
By definition, the people at the bottom of these don't make any money - that reeks of a pyramid scheme.
the seminar business for real estate and other endeavors spawned out of the Amway MLM.. the presentations are identical .. you are absolutely correct.. most people just don't realize it.. the back end support are the same companies..
- 7yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Jason D. technically Amway is not a pyramid scheme, although the structure is multi level so people think of it as a pyramid. The reason it isn't classified as a scheme is because the higher levels make money from the sale of products, not from fees paid in by new recruits. If it is considered a scheme, then there is not products and it is fees paid by new levels.
There is lots of direct marketing businesses that have been around forever (Amway, Tupperware, Magic Chef, Mary Kay). They all have the same kind of format where you try mainly sell to friends/coworkers/relatives and then try to recruit them to sell. The reason people detest these businesses is you are sucked into a situation where you feel pressured to buy because of the relationship with the business owner. Often this leads to lost friendships and you "avoid" that person and their "parties".
The few successful people can make lots of money. They are good sales people and I would argue they would be better off in real estate or some other profession that can pay even more. Most fail and alienate people around them in the process.
In the age of the internet, most consumers are shopping online. Arguably the MLM products are all overpriced compared to other options.
There are many main stream businesses that pay higher levels on sales from lower level recruits. I could even mention a real estate company or two that operate this way. The big difference is that they don't rely on friends/family to push products and they are focused more on selling, less recruiting.
For people who want to sell products, my advice is look into selling on eBay or Amazon. Another option is affiliate marketing. These are both better options because they are e-based businesses and you sell things people want, plus you are not selling to friends/family. You are promoting products out on the internet.
Obviously anyone who works for Amway or an MLM will argue some of what I am saying, but I think my perspective represents the majority of people. If it works for you, who cares what I say.
the other big MLM of the last decade was ACN and Five Links both reselling phone time.. I suspect with where phones have gone this is not much of a business these days.. top 5 to 10 make bank the others not so much
- Muskego, WI · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 3 votes7y
@Rob Massopust not committed as I stated a couple of times. I just don’t like people spreading misinformation on the internet, as most of the time it’s repeated garbage, someone with an agenda or lack of personal understanding. I have another service related business that is vulnerable to the same kind of internet attacks - anyone can say anything on the internet whether true, made up or by a competitor trying to use smear tactics.
- Rental Property Investor · MI · Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 1 vote7y
I have been an insurance broker since 1997 and seem to be a magnet for MLM salespeople. Amway is based out of Michigan and people have made a lot of money but it’s basically the more you hire the more you make selling off brand items. I have stayed away for MLM but have a few female friends who make great livings selling vitamins( her husband is a physician) , powdered drinks ( she is a trainer) and wrinkle cream.
- Rental Property Investor · MI · Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 1 vote7y
@Charlie MacPherson that’s a more honest way of saying what I posted. Grand Rapids was built on AmWay. If your willing to sell, not afraid To pick up the phone sell something that you get residuals on every year. This way you don’t start in January at 0 again.
- Real Estate Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 236 posts · 328 votes7y
Why are you even discussing this? If a casual acquaintance told you to stop buying your shampoo and laundry detergent from Costco and buy a no-name version from him that you never heard of for 4x the price, would you do it? Then why would you want to be on the other end of this stupid idea. I had an acquaintance in law school try to loop people into this to be in downline. Everyone avoided him after 2 weeks and when he gave up on this stupid idea the taint on him remains.
Do you think this is a good idea? Lets assume you can make $1000 a month doing Uber or Lyft.
According to google, the average "active" distributor makes $200 a month. That doesn't include all the people who flunk out and don't make anything. If success to you looks like alienating all your family and friends to make $200 a month until you run out of friends and family to harrass and you go to $0 a month, then go for it.
- Central, MN · Member since 2015 · 148 posts · 184 votes7y
These ideas and models aren't going away. I don't know about anyone on here's area, but Rodan and Fields is exploding in my area with the same type of structure. From what I know it is makeup and skin care in that one. It is like any other business, those who really work at it and see things others don't see have a chance to be successful. It is like how the guy across the street and the RE investor see the dilapidated house differently. The guy across the street sees and eyesore and is bothered by it. The RE investor sees opportunity... the reason they differ?? Their motivations and goals are different. There is no doubt MLM is a tough business to make money in, but so is RE if you aren't motivated, don't do your homework and don't follow through. To each his own, but I don't think it is fair to tear one business endeavor down because you favor another. And furthermore, just because there are lawsuits, doesn't mean it is fraudulent. There are plenty of great folks, no this site, who did nothing wrong, but were sued and have lost.
- Attorney · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2018 · 62 posts · 36 votes7y
@Christopher Thorin
I’m pretty confident in my facts. There is a reason most distributors are more interested in bringing others in as opposed to just selling the “fabulous” products. They are incentivized to do so. The products are an after thought, but do keep it from being an illegal true pyramid scheme..
Motivational seminars are fine. But its very similar to the RE “gurus.” Read on here thoughts on them if not familiar.
- Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes7y
@Dustin Burke
WWDB was the first business that was introduce to me to become an entrepreneur. The concept is absolutely amazing, but only if your a great recruiter. They may say that it is not, but to be successful you would need to recruit as many people as you can to get results. They want you to be your own customer that fuels your business and duplicate yourself by getting others under you to do the same thing. Amway has great products, but are very expensive. If your a great sales person or find it easy to get others to join, then it’s the right business for you.
- Real Estate Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 236 posts · 328 votes7y
Originally posted by @Mike Freske:
@Christopher Thorin
I’m pretty confident in my facts. There is a reason most distributors are more interested in bringing others in as opposed to just selling the “fabulous” products. They are incentivized to do so. The products are an after thought, but do keep it from being an illegal true pyramid scheme..
As the great Charlie Munger once said, "if you mix raisins in with turds, you're still eating turds."
- Waipahu, HI · Member since 2018 · 121 posts · 81 votes7y
I would suggest watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6MwGeOm8iI
Also Penn and Teller have a great video on MLM. After watching these I made my mind up a long time ago not to get involved.
- Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes7y
it stands to reason that if amazon Sams club Costco And Walmart put like 90% of the ma and pa stores in America out of business then it’s safe to say your not going to do much better as joe blow selling no name household products for 4X the price these big stores offer it at . This is just common sense and basic economics .
- Rental Property Investor · Hammond, WI · Member since 2017 · 139 posts · 217 votes7y
The anti-MLM on Reddit is worth its weight in gold, I see the huns are out in full force defending it to the bitter end as they always do. These types of businesses are notoriously predatory, generally people that sign up for this nonsense are ones who can't afford it in the first place and it generally gets out of hand...quickly. You're not an entrepreneur, you're sponging off of friends and family who have no choice other than to buy your overpriced crap for a while so they don't feel bad. There's a reason pretty much everyone fails, the distributors are the ones buying the product, not actual customers. In a normal sales position, the salesman aren't buying the cars, customers are. Two very large differences in those business models.
You can argue it's not all day, but if you need to try and explain to people over and over again that it's not a pyramid scheme...it's probably a pyramid scheme. Just know 90% of the population is laughing at you and wishing you would get off social media and stop bombarding them. Oh I haven't talked to you in ten years, I would love to hear your sales pitch about your crappy overpriced essential oils that are completely worthless.
anti-mlm gold right here.
- Great Falls, MT · Member since 2017 · 97 posts · 172 votes7y
@Dustin Burke
It’s a pyramid scheme. They have many fancy names for it now, but that’s what it is. Putting lipstick on a pig.
PLEASE listen to the podcast, “The Dream” before giving anyone money.
Remember that this is Amway. They changed their name for a reason....to escape a scandal. The podcast discusses it a bit.
- Great Falls, MT · Member since 2017 · 97 posts · 172 votes7y
@Peter Sanchez
And that $200 a month is usually “made” by buying the products yourself, so you can meet some sort of false “goal” or reach the next “level” or achieve “____ status”.
- Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2018 · 335 posts · 251 votes7y
This is the spreadsheet I used to compare Amway with Amazon. If you think of Amway as "Mercedes" and Amazon as "Kia", then the price difference makes sense. Otherwise, if Tide, Colgate, Downy and Red Bull are ok with you, then maybe not.
But like I said earlier, I know some amazing people who are in Amway, and their leadership development, and personal growth are phenomenal. It just didn't make sense for me to join from a purely numbers standpoint.
- Investor · Renton, WA · Member since 2016 · 21 posts · 7 votes7y
@Dustin Burke I was involved with WWDB/Amway for a period of time and can answer any questions you have. I'm both thankful for the time I spent in the business and thankful that I'm no longer involved. You can message me directly if you want, I'd be happy to help.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes7y
Of course Amway items cost more money. The extra cost isn't due to quality, it is to pay multilevel sales commissions. If you have what it takes to be successful in Amway, you could could be successful selling anything. If you have that skill set, why would you sell small dollar items and anger your friends and family? Go sell boats, cars or houses, better money and you are not competing against Costco or Amazon.
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