So I have this "friend"...
A buddy had invited me to an invitation only meeting. It was a very motivational gathering that left me wanting more. I like to consider myself a receptive type person but ------- this doesn't smell right.
Anyone have experience with this group? World Wide Dream Builders (WWDB)
@Dustin Burke seeing that the website link doesnt work and I cant seem to open the second link, I'm sceptical. Amway is a MLM pyramid scheme, take that for what it's worth. Some people have success with those, some do not
@Jason D. The first link worked yesterday. The second one opens up for me. It is a web based PDF that talks about WWDB.
I am under the same impression as you are as to it sounds like some people may have made it work.
I am trying to find someone that has been successful using this "scheme".
Let me clarify that although I do have a "oh look squire" type personality, I am not losing focus on RE investing. I am interested in learning more about this because I am interested in supporting my budding in his efforts toward financial freedom. But if this is nonsense, I'd also like to respectfully give him my opinion.
Multi Level Marketing works for some people. Anyway is on top of the heap. They’ve been around for over 50 years. Not a pyramid scheme. The dream builders are a subgroup organization of their distributors that has done very well. Some of my family was involved with them 20 years ago. Just keep a few things in mind. It’s a sales business. You get paid commission on downline sales. You move up in the chain by getting more distributors below you that either consume products or sell products. Don’t know what their current commission structure is but let’s say you get 15% of everything sold below you.
If your organization of distributors and customers consumes/buys $10,000 per month then you get $1500 per month, etc. not easy to get huge sales numbers. May be lucky to get some customers who buy $50-100 per month from you, if that.
These are hard to build. Easy if you can convince all your family and friends to buy all their monthly consumables through the company. Soaps, detergents, everything.
Like everything it’s a networking business. Do you want to talk to everyone you know? Most will turn you down. Then you have to cold call/contact and do what the door to door salespeople do, asking people you know for referrals. But the people who take it seriously and stick with it can do well I think. But it’s not easy sales. Think Tupperware parties mixed with trying to find people who will treat it as a business and want more than just consume the products, who want to expand and make money with it. The problem is that these organizations are so slow to build that by the time you get some people interested in doing this as a business the previous people who were on that track are fizzling and moving on to other things because the big bucks they were hoping for didn’t come quick enough and it is real work to get there.
I would personally want my contacts to know about my real estate business and want to invest with me rather than burn all those up with trying to sell them soap and detergents, etc. Good luck.
@Christian Becker Thanks Christian for your thoughts. So far I am of the same opinion.
I watched a close friend and my older brother spend thousands of dollars and countless amount of time in WWDB. After years of listening to the hype and wasting there time and money they ended up with nothing but strained relationships and empty pockets. They push and push to get people involved and end up pushing friends and family away.
The only people to make it in the programmer the ones who got in early. The multiple level marketing model is more like a religion or cult then a business.
I say run!!
Thanks @Ryan Knudtson for your thoughts on the topic.
I have done a bit more research on the topic and although don't think it is the right vehicle for me personal to generate passive cash flow, it does appear that the program may hold value to the right person. WWDB has been around for a long time. If it was complete garbage, odds are it wouldn't still be doing business as successfully as they are.
WWDB, from what I have learned in my short research, has a great personal development program that could help a person that doesn't necessarily have the skills to think like an entrepreneur to gain some knowledge and courage to be able to take a step toward getting out of the "rat race".
This is definitely not a get rich quick program and I think this is where a lot of the frustration comes from. It appears like most things in life, you will get out of it what you put into it. And looks like it does take a lot of dedication and patience.
The program suggests that it is a safer way to build passive income then Real Estate. I am NOT sold on that in the slightest, but I may be a bit biased.
Although I am not officially joining this program, I have decided to follow thru with the few weeks of "training" they offer. I am always looking for opportunity for self improvement and WWDB appears to have a killer training program that I think will benefit me in general. I do hear however that WWDB takes this first few weeks of training to persuade you into signing up with them, so I will definitely be aware of that and will be proceeding with caution.
If anyone else has experience with this, either past or present - good or bad, please let me know you thoughts. Thanks!
@Dustin Burke Thank you for your original post and to all the responders on this thread. I've just recently gone to the first meeting with WWDB and, like you Dustin, I'm entrigued by the leadership/self development training. I defintely understand that their model works and if fully commited to, I think would bear fruit. Like @Christian Becker said, I wouldn't want to burn my Real Estate contacts for my budding RE business though, so with that I'm kind of skeptical. Any updates that you can share Dustin?
@George Van Dyke - nothing to speak of. I am still going thru the training. The books they recommend are of the same type I would otherwise read anyway so nothing new there. The audios are mainly inspirational. They are full of people that have "went Diamond" speaking of how they got there and how it has changed their lives.
What has struck me the most is the quality of people that I have had the pleasure to interact with thru this group. I'm sure other groups have a different feel, but the group I am involved with are highly motivated, top notch people.
I will finish their "training" because I told my buddy I would and then give an update.
@Dustin Burke Amway, Herbalife and their ilk absolutely are pyramid schemes.
They make a good chunk of their money by pitching a never ending stream of newbies who have not yet figured out the scam. That's how they stay in business - not by supplying needed goods at a competitive price.
Think about it - if you're selling something these days, there are dozens, if not hundreds of places you can buy online. So unless you're selling things that you can't get somewhere else, you're selling a commodity.
Example: Let's say you're the 15th guy representing a paper clip manufacturer and you're calling on Staples, trying to win their business.
What's unique about your company's paper clips? Nothing. All 15 competitors' paper clips look, feel and function the same. They all hold your papers together. They are a commodity.
How do people selling commodities compete? Price. It's a race to the bottom to see who can sell for the lowest price.
What does Amway need to pay people several layers deep? High sales prices. That money has to come from somewhere!
See the mismatch there? Amway might have branded products, but they're not unique. You'll be selling a commodity - and, by the way, you'll be competing with Amazon too.
On top of all that, if you really plan to sell for Amway, you'll have to pitch everybody who knows your name. "Buy my stuff! Become an "Amway entrepreneur!"
You'll be the guy that everybody hates to see walking toward them. Family and friends will avoid you like you're radioactive.
Buy hey, maybe you don't want all those friends anyway!
"You'll be the guy that everybody hates to see walking toward them. Family and friends will avoid you like you're radioactive."
@Charlie MacPherson , YES! Had a friend and co-worker who did this thing called Melaleuca in the mid-90's...very similar to Amway and he shopped and pushed and worked it into every conversation so much that we pretty much ran him out of the dealership after a few months. He went to another store and didn't last long. Never made back his initial "Investment" in the products (Household and laundry crap I believe) and dropped from contact.
I look at these things like religions...if it makes you happy and gives you direction and peace then have at it, but please stop trying to convert me to your faith after I say no thank you the first time.
I actually was looking into this for a little while myself too. The leadership training and self-improvement aspects are awesome. The downside was that the products you are asked to sell are not name brand and cost about 4x what something similar would cost at Amazon or Walmart. I actually mapped out a spreadsheet of about 20 items I would consider buying for myself (shampoo, laundry detergent, etc). The cost, even after the kickback, came out to 3-4x the cost of name brand products I could buy off Amazon. I couldn't in good conscious pitch the products to my friends and family after that.
Any updates on how this went?
@Charlie MacPherson (and other negative commenters): explain how most business isn't a 'pyramid'. Those at the top, those that sell the most, those that recruit the best people are those that are the most successful. You may not agree with the business, or it's model, but that doesn't make it something illegal or detrimental. And your opinion of that company's products do not detract from their uniqueness, benefit or value. Your pricing estimates indicate you are not always comparing apples to apples. Do you drive a Mercedes (for example)? Why? it's a car that's no different than a Kia...right?
As for annoying people, there are those in EVERY type of industry. Why is it that people in this country are so quick to judge a company or industry based on someone's personality (or lack thereof) when it comes to MLM companies? Many dread the approaching salesperson at a car dealership or aggressive clothing store as well. Do you do the same with other Real Estate Investors? There are plenty of scammers and jerks in Real Estate as well. In fact, I can turn my TV on almost any late night of the week and find the next "great real estate system" that will make me rich, after I'm lured in by a "free" information seminar only to have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on their magical system. How is that different? This site does the same thing, offering a trade of knowledge and system for money - though here they do it the RIGHT way and don't force you into buying thousands of dollars worth of a system in order to learn the secrets. You spend and learn what you choose to. Welcome to capitalism. Stop being so judgmental just because you don't like a certain industry or person associated with it.
And full disclosure: yes, I am familiar and was associated with WWDB and no I have not taken the initiative to do anything with that, as like others, I determined it wasn't something for me at the time. I've also had another 'traditional' business that I didn't do what I should have and didn't have success. Is that my fault or the industry's fault? I can only speak for WWDB, but that organization does have many good people and smart businessmen. Its a nice, positive atmosphere to be around. Its not for everyone, but they offer some good training, reading recommendations, etc. And yes, they make money off of offering some of those tools (*gasp*).
Amway offers some very good products (price isn't everything and all that you buy on Amazon is not always authentic). For example, if you compare a hair salon product pricing vs Amway, you'll see there isn't a significant cost difference. If that same product is available on Amazon for much less, its very likely not a legitimate product. Apples to apples. You choose what you feel is comparable in value - not cost. Welcome to the Free Market System. Stop trying to denigrate and take others down who don't think like you do. We should be ENCOURAGING individualism & capitalistic entrepreneur-ism in this country of all (legal) kinds, not criticizing or repeating misinformation about them.
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@Christopher Thorin Amway has been around for decades, it's a pyramid scheme.
They're products are made mostly in China using cheap materials.
@Jason D. You have a right to your misinformed opinion
@Christopher Thorin I dont have misinformed opinions. My opinions are based on facts and data. The fact and data say that if I recruit 2 people, and make a commission on their sales, the each of those 2 recruit 2 each and I make a commission off of my recruits recruits, and so on and so forth, that's a pyramid scheme.
This reminds me of an episode of the office where Michael scott is trying to explain how his "calling card" business isnt a pyramid scheme, as Jim is building a Pyramid behind him....
Some people make good money in MLM, but most do not.
@Jason D. A pyramid scheme is illegal and is where the people on top pay new recruits with the next recruits money (see Bernie Madoff) and those in the lower tiers have no chance of making the upper tiers - essentially you are being paid for doing nothing other than convincing others to give you money with no product or service provided.
With MLM, while it is true you can gain from ‘downline’, it comes through sales, not recruiting fees. No different than any other corporation in the US that pays the CEO more than the production worker, and financially rewards the companies who sell the most.
I cannot speak for all MLM companies, but Amway allows those who get in at any time to make whatever income and surpass those that may have been “above” them from the beginning (how often does that happen based solely on effort in corporate America?). It is misinformation that you can only make money if you ‘get in early’. The FTC ruled that Amway is NOT a pyramid scheme - so yes, you are misinformed. Just as you are on your statement about all of their products being cheap and made in China.
Not sure what your issue is with the company, or a certain person that irritated you or whatever, but spreading lies and misinformation doesn’t support your case as “fact”, no matter how you want to spin it or place it in a semi-humorous pop culture context.
@Christopher Thorin look at the company's history, it is filled with class action lawsuits, payoffs, and federal trade commission fines. What you're describing as a pyramid scheme, is a ponzi scheme. A pyramid scheme is where you make money off of "downstream" revenue, not your sales.
What I have against it is they take uneducated, usually poor people, and take advantage of them.
Studies of independent consumer watchdog agencies have shown that between 990 and 999 of 1000 participants in MLMs that use Amway-type pay plans in fact lose money. According to The Skeptic's Dictionary, "In the United States, the Federal Trade Commission requires Amway to label its products with the message that 54% of Amway recruits make nothing and the rest earn on average $65 a month.
@Christopher Thorin if it's something that you're into, great. And if you've been successful, even better. But if that's the case, you are in the VAST minority.
Something I pride myself on is giving people realistic expectations and honest advice, and the realistic expectation of joining Amway, or any MLM scheme, is that you will lose money, because that is what the facts say.
Madoff was a Ponzi scheme - he was using new investor money to pay old investors some "profit."
There is no question that MLM can be described as a pyramid scheme. A person makes more money on bringing people in as opposed to the selling of the actual product. If the products were so great a person would just sell those products 24/7 instead of spending so much time recruiting others under them. Many of these companies make lots of money on selling books and tapes and weekend conventions to get people riled up and motivated. The material doesn't actually teach anything, it just talks about some random "diamond" and how you too can be a diamond..
By definition, the people at the bottom of these don't make any money - that reeks of a pyramid scheme.
@Jason D. So if I own a “traditional” company where I make money off downstream sales (see also: my sales force), and when i increase the numbers of that sales force and make more money, that makes my business a pyramid scheme?
You are correct that Madoff was an example of ponzi vs pyramid. However, the only difference between the two is that in a Ponzi scheme people think they are making money from their “investment”. There is no product or service provided in either scheme. Not the same in any form as Amway.
Lawsuits filed are more of an indication than an actual ruling?? You can file a lawsuit for anything these days. You realize that many of the lawsuits were filed by competitors (proctor gamble). Hmmm, wonder why? And most of them were against individuals - but you include Amway because they’ve got the deeper pockets.
If I have a real estate mentor and don’t make money because I’m doing nothing actively I should sue the mentor? Should I sue BiggerPockets if I don’t become a millionaire in real estate investing even though I didn’t do what was required to be one?
You claim to be against it because it takes advantage of people - so does the lottery, insurance industry, attorneys and the government. The difference is that a company like Amway gives you the opportunity to change that financial position, just as real estate does. Nobody said it was easy.
We agree on the “average” person’s income in MLM, and i agree there are too many INDIVIDUALS that misrepresent what is needed in skills and effort to succeed. But that’s not on the company.
It’s not for everyone (actually a small minority, as you said). I admitted it’s not right for me (at least up to this point), but I’m tired of reading the endless misinformation and bashing of a legitimate company that does good things. I appreciate the civil dialogue, but I’m a strong believer in supporting capitalism in whatever form. Especially in today’s political climate where we seem to be moving ever closer to losing that freedom
My Step Dad did Amway back in the 80's and of course got me as a kid to buy into the hype. Its cringe worthy when I think of it today. it did get me thinking like an entrepreneur and such but the bottom line is you are selling decent retail products to above retail pricing. So hard to make any sense of it and it gets people's hopes up way too high. Big Pass on my end. Find something where you are actually helping someone or solving problems not convincing or forcing people to deal with your products.
Oh and they make almost more money on selling you "the independent business owner" the essential brochures and pamphlets, books and tapes and other such "drivel". I am too surprised on how they can continually dupe so many people. Just look up DeVos and you will find the founder and some dimwitted broad that is secretary of education in Michigan or somewhere.
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