Creating my unfair advantage

Creating my unfair advantage

Michael E.Pro Member
New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes

Hello BP!

I just wanted to share my plan for creating an unfair advantage for myself. Another title for this post could be "From adversity to advantage"

1. Become a licensed contractor. In Michigan all I have to do is take a 3 week class, pass a test and pay some money. Class start tomorrow.

2. Use the "flood house" I have to practice my rehab skills and get real experience as a contractor. Doing the work myself is the only way to turn it into a win so this is a two for one.

3. Document everything and take lots of pictures and videos. Then post/talk about the progress to my social groups and networking circles. Showcase the kind of work I do well.

4. After it is finished, sell, re-fi or use as collateral for a personal note. Whichever option makes the most sense at the time.

If everything goes well I will have turned a terrible situation into an asset and created an unfair advantage for myself because I will be able to remodel or flip an investment property by myself. Also, making me a very attractive partner.

It's scary how fast things have moved for me and terrifying to think how fast things could move but as I heard somewhere on BP "Success always lays on the other side of fear".

"Now, go do something impossible." -Jason Drees

7 Steps to Hit an Impossible Target in 2022

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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:

I wish you luck. However, I'm not sure why you need a Contractor's license? Are you planning on being the GC for other investors? I can tell you for a fact that there is more $$ to be made in the REI game. So, why bother getting the license? Although it is so easy anyone can do it so I guess why not?

Kinda surprising that someone can build a house without any experience........wow....

 It looks so easy on cable TV though.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    My thoughts:

    1 - Why?

    2 - A two for one in cost...no gain I see here.

    3 - To what end?

    4 - These options as to being a plus are in question.  The answer is based on the actual cost to buy and rehab.  Without seeing the numbers, and don't leave anything out, I would bet on the total cost being a lot more than anything you could get in return for it. I could be wrong,...but I doubt it.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    You don’t really need an unfair advantage, just living in Michigan and willing to do your own work is advantage enough lol

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Michael E.:

    Hello BP!

    I just wanted to share my plan for creating an unfair advantage for myself. Another title for this post could be "From adversity to advantage"

    1. Become a licensed contractor. In Michigan all I have to do is take a 3 week class, pass a test and pay some money. Class start tomorrow.

    2. Use the "flood house" I have to practice my rehab skills and get real experience as a contractor. Doing the work myself is the only way to turn it into a win so this is a two for one.

    3. Document everything and take lots of pictures and videos. Then post/talk about the progress to my social groups and networking circles. Showcase the kind of work I do well.

    4. After it is finished, sell, re-fi or use as collateral for a personal note. Whichever option makes the most sense at the time.

    If everything goes well I will have turned a terrible situation into an asset and created an unfair advantage for myself because I will be able to remodel or flip an investment property by myself. Also, making me a very attractive partner.

    It's scary how fast things have moved for me and terrifying to think how fast things could move but as I heard somewhere on BP "Success always lays on the other side of fear".

    "Now, go do something impossible." -Jason Drees

    7 Steps to Hit an Impossible Target in 2022

    That is pretty much how I created my own unfair advantage here in Pennsylvania. The problem is becoming a reasonably GOOD rehab contractor, with all that entails.

    But you're in Michigan, prime territory to do this. There's an old book from 1994, Profits in Buying and Renovating Homes, by Lawrence Dworin, that will help you with a basic blueprint for doing what you're talking about.

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    I wouldn't call it 'an unfair advantage'. I would call it a 'fair advantage' or a 'smart advantage' as there's nothing preventing others from doing what you're doing. 

    The more skills you have the more success will follow. 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    I wish you luck. However, I'm not sure why you need a Contractor's license? Are you planning on being the GC for other investors? I can tell you for a fact that there is more $$ to be made in the REI game. So, why bother getting the license? Although it is so easy anyone can do it so I guess why not?

    Kinda surprising that someone can build a house without any experience........wow....

  • Member since 2021 · 217 posts · 190 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    You don’t really need an unfair advantage, just living in Michigan and willing to do your own work is advantage enough lol

     So exactly where in MI do you think these markets are that are so easy.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Karl B.:

    I wouldn't call it 'an unfair advantage'. I would call it a 'fair advantage' or a 'smart advantage' as there's nothing preventing others from doing what you're doing. 

    The more skills you have the more success will follow. 

    That really is the best way of putting it, thanks, Karl.

  • Michael E.Pro Member
    OP
    New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    My thoughts:

    1 - Why?

    2 - A two for one in cost...no gain I see here.

    3 - To what end?

    4 - These options as to being a plus are in question.  The answer is based on the actual cost to buy and rehab.  Without seeing the numbers, and don't leave anything out, I would bet on the total cost being a lot more than anything you could get in return for it. I could be wrong,...but I doubt it.

    Hi Joe, thanks for the reply.

     1. The more (real estate related) skills I have, the better. If you have little to no knowledge, or experience, or skills, or capital, it is hard to get started in real estate.

    2. I already own "the flood house". It was bought before the flood. Selling as-is, I might get 25 cents on the dollar, paying market cost for the reno, I might get 50 cents on the dollar. Doing the work myself (and using tips and trick to get high quality materials at a discount) should let me brake even. Or at least limit the loss and let me sell for 90 cents on the dollar. Selling at a loss is never a good situation but doing what I can to limit that loss make sense for me because I have the time to do it. If I had more money than time it would be a different story.

    3. Self-promotion that will hopefully attract potential partners. Doing stuff like that is a BP recommendation.

    4. The ideal here is to turn the property into usable capital. The point of fixing it up, is to get as much capital (back) as possible.

    Hope that helps to clarify things and thanks again for the reply.

  • Michael E.Pro Member
    OP
    New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes
    4y

    Hi Jim!

    Added to my book list.

    Thanks!

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Michael E.:
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    My thoughts:

    1 - Why?

    2 - A two for one in cost...no gain I see here.

    3 - To what end?

    4 - These options as to being a plus are in question.  The answer is based on the actual cost to buy and rehab.  Without seeing the numbers, and don't leave anything out, I would bet on the total cost being a lot more than anything you could get in return for it. I could be wrong,...but I doubt it.

    Hi Joe, thanks for the reply.

     1. The more (real estate related) skills I have, the better. If you have little to no knowledge, or experience, or skills, or capital, it is hard to get started in real estate.

    2. I already own "the flood house". It was bought before the flood. Selling as-is, I might get 25 cents on the dollar, paying market cost for the reno, I might get 50 cents on the dollar. Doing the work myself (and using tips and trick to get high quality materials at a discount) should let me brake even. Or at least limit the loss and let me sell for 90 cents on the dollar. Selling at a loss is never a good situation but doing what I can to limit that loss make sense for me because I have the time to do it. If I had more money than time it would be a different story.

    3. Self-promotion that will hopefully attract potential partners. Doing stuff like that is a BP recommendation.

    4. The ideal here is to turn the property into usable capital. The point of fixing it up, is to get as much capital (back) as possible.

    Hope that helps to clarify things and thanks again for the reply.

     1 - This isn't the way to learn.  Way too expensive, and too much risk (see #2).

    2 - Where did you get those numbers from?  Sounds like you're guessing.  I say that because your numbers are in percentages instead of dollars.

    3 - Based on what you would be showing, I assume you would be trying to attract money partners.  I've been on both sides of the "money partner side", and I can tell you that a money partner will ask "how much money you made".  When you tell them you didn't, they won't be interested.  Being able to do rehab isn't what they look for in a partner.  They look for how much money you made if you did the rehab on a deal.  They want to see the numbers...not the pictures.

    4 - OK. This is a huge mathematical problem that is very common among REI of different levels of experience. This goes back to our comments in #1 above. You're basing a better financial result because you are doing rehab on a property that is losing money either way. You're assuming that because you can sell it for more money, it will lose less money. Maybe, most likely not. Here's the problem. You're assuming a better loss situation that is measured with a percentage. Percentages lie. This is why I mentioned earlier that you have to base your plan on knowing the actual numbers of cost for rehab and purchase (plus a number of other misc costs), and what you think you can sell it for after the rehab is done.

    I don't know what 25(%), 50(%) or 90(%) means in dollars.  Do you?

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:

    I wish you luck. However, I'm not sure why you need a Contractor's license? Are you planning on being the GC for other investors? I can tell you for a fact that there is more $$ to be made in the REI game. So, why bother getting the license? Although it is so easy anyone can do it so I guess why not?

    Kinda surprising that someone can build a house without any experience........wow....

     It looks so easy on cable TV though.

  • Member since 2022 · 1 post · 1 vote
    4y

    Michael, 

    Would love to connect and network. I am a plumber and soon to be contractor also residing in Michigan. I am from Metro Detroit. I'd love to pick your brain on some rehab topics. 

  • Investor · MI · Member since 2015 · 227 posts · 478 votes
    4y

    It's not a bad plan, but realistically on your first full remodel with no experience it will take a ton of time, and after you buy all the tools, re-do a bunch of stuff, buy more tools, mis-cut everything, buy some more tools etc. You'll probably break even at best, if not have spent more than just hiring a GC.

    The thing you WILL have in the end is a significant amount more knowledge about construction than most other people, which will make the next project higher quality, faster, and cheaper, but it will takes 10's of years to get "good".


    If you think you can leverage this construction knowledge into something advantageous (you can), then go for it, but it will NOT be easy.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Austin F.:

    It's not a bad plan, but realistically on your first full remodel with no experience it will take a ton of time, and after you buy all the tools, re-do a bunch of stuff, buy more tools, mis-cut everything, buy some more tools etc. You'll probably break even at best, if not have spent more than just hiring a GC.

    The thing you WILL have in the end is a significant amount more knowledge about construction than most other people, which will make the next project higher quality, faster, and cheaper, but it will takes 10's of years to get "good".


    If you think you can leverage this construction knowledge into something advantageous (you can), then go for it, but it will NOT be easy.

     In the end what you should learn is why you don't do your own rehab.

  • Michael E.Pro Member
    OP
    New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes
    4y

     If you really want to know more about the situation I'm happy to give more details. The story with "the flood house" is a long and complicated one that involves family but the key point (I think) is that it was not purchased as an investment when I started. Purchase price was $28,000. I had the roof and electrical panel replaced bringing my all-in to $40,000.

    Then, one week after the roof was done, it was hit by the Sanford/Edenville dam failure (2020). I started calling people to get quotes before the water had gone down. However, with the large number of people in the area needing the same work, only 2 people ever called me back. The first person told me that people didn't care how much it was. They were telling him "you show up and I'll write the check". The second person quoted $25,000 and they wouldn't start for 3 weeks. Now I'm left with, how do I turn this situation around? The answer was, to do it myself. So I did the "flood damage mitigation" work myself. For anyone that doesn't know, all that means, is ripping out the wet stuff and letting the structure dry. At this point in the story, the thought of real estate investing had not happened yet.

    So, now I'm spending massive amounts of brain power on how to turn this negative into a positive. I came up with a 2 part plan. The first was a no-brainer, join a lawsuit. Payday on that, if any, is 10 years away. The second was again, do it myself. I then started learning everything I could about DIY home repair. After calling my local building office to talk about permits, I realized they were not going to make it easy for me unless a licensed contractor was involved. At the time, because I didn't even look into it, I thought getting licensed was not feasible, so I just put that issue on the back burner and kept learning.

    Over the phone quotes based on pictures ranged from $40,000 to $60,000 for just labor, in the Spring of 2021. I couldn't get anyone to give me a quote on materials because of the "supply chain crisis". That's what they told me anyway. I did it myself based on Home Depot prices and came up with about $40,000. That covers subfloor, finish floor, drywall, insulation, kitchen cabinets, the whole bathroom, plumbing, water heater, interior paint, exterior sheathing, siding repair, and a back deck to replace the one that floated away. That price does not include replacing the furnace or ductwork. A good comparable on the same road sold in the summer of 2021 for $95,000. The pictures looked great and the listing mentioned stone countertops, tile floors and new mechanicals. The best offer I got was from someone who sent me a "yellow letter". After talking to them they were will to give me $10,000. 25% of my cost. If the reno cost is $100,000 making my all-in $140,000 and I sold for $95,000 minus fees and commission, I would get about 60% of my cost. Yes, instead of losing $30,000 I would be losing $55,000, which is why I'm not doing that. If, by doing the work myself, I can get the reno done for around $40,000-$50,000 making my all-in $80,000-$90,000, I might just turn this into a win. At this point real estate investing still had not entered my mind. I was simply thinking, how do I not lose money on this house?

    Skipping ahead a lot because this post is already way too long, I started to see videos in the vain of "maximize your returns with these DIY projects". This led me to seeing a video with David Greene and then to Bigger Pockets. Bigger Pockets planted the seed and I watered it by diving into BP the way I did with DIY.

    Skipping ahead again, I realized that having those rehab skills and a license could make me a great partner for someone. Now if you already have 1000 doors then no, I'm not going to be of great value to you. If, on the other hand, you are someone like me, just getting started in real estate, finding someone with the skills/resources that you lack and partnering with them, can drastically change the trajectory of your investing. I'm not looking for a money partner, I'm hoping to find a business partner.

    With 11,000 post to your name, it would seem you have been in this game for awhile, so from your prospective I'm sure none of this makes sense. So, if you have a list of easy ways to get started in real estate with little to no knowledge, experience, skills, or connections, that will hopefully fit my personal situation, then I'm all ears. Tone doesn't always come through the way we think it will in text so I want to say I'm not being sarcastic. If you have a list I would really love to hear it.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Michael E.:

     If you really want to know more about the situation I'm happy to give more details. The story with "the flood house" is a long and complicated one that involves family but the key point (I think) is that it was not purchased as an investment when I started. Purchase price was $28,000. I had the roof and electrical panel replaced bringing my all-in to $40,000.

    Then, one week after the roof was done, it was hit by the Sanford/Edenville dam failure (2020). I started calling people to get quotes before the water had gone down. However, with the large number of people in the area needing the same work, only 2 people ever called me back. The first person told me that people didn't care how much it was. They were telling him "you show up and I'll write the check". The second person quoted $25,000 and they wouldn't start for 3 weeks. Now I'm left with, how do I turn this situation around? The answer was, to do it myself. So I did the "flood damage mitigation" work myself. For anyone that doesn't know, all that means, is ripping out the wet stuff and letting the structure dry. At this point in the story, the thought of real estate investing had not happened yet.

    So, now I'm spending massive amounts of brain power on how to turn this negative into a positive. I came up with a 2 part plan. The first was a no-brainer, join a lawsuit. Payday on that, if any, is 10 years away. The second was again, do it myself. I then started learning everything I could about DIY home repair. After calling my local building office to talk about permits, I realized they were not going to make it easy for me unless a licensed contractor was involved. At the time, because I didn't even look into it, I thought getting licensed was not feasible, so I just put that issue on the back burner and kept learning.

    Over the phone quotes based on pictures ranged from $40,000 to $60,000 for just labor, in the Spring of 2021. I couldn't get anyone to give me a quote on materials because of the "supply chain crisis". That's what they told me anyway. I did it myself based on Home Depot prices and came up with about $40,000. That covers subfloor, finish floor, drywall, insulation, kitchen cabinets, the whole bathroom, plumbing, water heater, interior paint, exterior sheathing, siding repair, and a back deck to replace the one that floated away. That price does not include replacing the furnace or ductwork. A good comparable on the same road sold in the summer of 2021 for $95,000. The pictures looked great and the listing mentioned stone countertops, tile floors and new mechanicals. The best offer I got was from someone who sent me a "yellow letter". After talking to them they were will to give me $10,000. 25% of my cost. If the reno cost is $100,000 making my all-in $140,000 and I sold for $95,000 minus fees and commission, I would get about 60% of my cost. Yes, instead of losing $30,000 I would be losing $55,000, which is why I'm not doing that. If, by doing the work myself, I can get the reno done for around $40,000-$50,000 making my all-in $80,000-$90,000, I might just turn this into a win. At this point real estate investing still had not entered my mind. I was simply thinking, how do I not lose money on this house?

    Skipping ahead a lot because this post is already way too long, I started to see videos in the vain of "maximize your returns with these DIY projects". This led me to seeing a video with David Greene and then to Bigger Pockets. Bigger Pockets planted the seed and I watered it by diving into BP the way I did with DIY.

    Skipping ahead again, I realized that having those rehab skills and a license could make me a great partner for someone. Now if you already have 1000 doors then no, I'm not going to be of great value to you. If, on the other hand, you are someone like me, just getting started in real estate, finding someone with the skills/resources that you lack and partnering with them, can drastically change the trajectory of your investing. I'm not looking for a money partner, I'm hoping to find a business partner.

    With 11,000 post to your name, it would seem you have been in this game for awhile, so from your prospective I'm sure none of this makes sense. So, if you have a list of easy ways to get started in real estate with little to no knowledge, experience, skills, or connections, that will hopefully fit my personal situation, then I'm all ears. Tone doesn't always come through the way we think it will in text so I want to say I'm not being sarcastic. If you have a list I would really love to hear it.

     OK.  Thanks for going thru all these details.  They do help clarify things a little better.  As I look at the numbers with $$$ in front (and ignore the ones with %%% behind) what I see is this:

    1 - At this point you are only $40k into the property, and you could sell it for $25k meaning a loss of $15k...that's it.

    2 - Any of the other options are just examples of spending more money trying to lose less money, but your analysis of each option is in the form of a percentage.  They lie.

    3 - If you do the rehab at a cost of $100k, that means you need to recover $140k,...not just $40k.

    4 - If you can only lose $15k now, doing nothing more, it would mean you would need to sell the property for at least $125k just to have the same loss as if you did nothing more.  That makes no sense at all.  Why bother?  Plus, that's more money you have to recover, and less funds remaining to use to recover that loss with.

    5 - Assuming you have the $100k to do the added rehab, or at least access to that $100k, the best choice is a combination of minimizing your cost (cash out of pocket), so that you can recover that loss quicker (smaller amount to recover and more money available ...i.e. the $100k for the major rehab...to recover the loss with).

    6 - REI is a lot like Poker...and not because they are both gambling. REI isn't gambling if done correctly. The reason they are a lot alike is because success in either one depends on the person playing/investing to have the same mindset. I'll tell you that mindset at the end.

    If you sat down to play Poker with a stack of chips, and within the first 6 hands your stack was cut in half, how much money did you lose?

    Answer:  Nothing.  Why?  Simple, you haven't lost any money...your chips (mondy) is just in a different pile on the table.  You can always get it back as long as you don't do foolish things like gambling on hands that have little or no chance of winning, and by putting more and more chips into those hands.  All that does is add to the amount of chips in different piles, add to the amount of chips you need to recover before you can start winning (making a profit), and will leave you less money (chips) to work with to recover those lost chips (cash).  A loss isn't a loss until you leave the table in Poker, or stop Investing in RE, due to lack of chips/funds.

    So, throw out percentages, and emotions from your decision making. Stop rationalizing that throwing more good money after bad will somehow buy you "fairy dust" that will fix your losses (even though the math tells you otherwise), and remember, you can always get those chips back in the next winning hands, or that lost cash in REI from the next profitable properties, as long as you focus on the new mindset you must have for both Poker and REI success...

    Just...

    ...Stay in the Game.

  • Rental Property Investor · Ithaca, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Michael E.

    That’s pretty much what I’m doing in NY. I think you’re on the right path. However, your insurance company and bank might have an issue if you don’t set yourself up correctly. I had to form two separate LLCs one for the construction and one for my real estate holdings in order for my bank and insurer to be happy. Michigan might be different but it’s something to look into. Great idea, hope you stick with it and see great results.

  • Michael E.Pro Member
    OP
    New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Nick Rutkowski:

    @Michael E.

    That’s pretty much what I’m doing in NY. I think you’re on the right path. However, your insurance company and bank might have an issue if you don’t set yourself up correctly. I had to form two separate LLCs one for the construction and one for my real estate holdings in order for my bank and insurer to be happy. Michigan might be different but it’s something to look into. Great idea, hope you stick with it and see great results.

     Hi Nick,

    Thanks for the tip! That's a good point and I've added it to my follow-up list.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    @Joe Villeneuve That is a great analogy using the poker chips as an example. It's so true that the money is never gone, it's just sitting there waiting for you to get it back. 

    There is an endless supply of money in the world....you just need to stay in the game and get it.

    Wise words, Uncle Joe......

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Joe Villeneuve That is a great analogy using the poker chips as an example. It's so true that the money is never gone, it's just sitting there waiting for you to get it back. 

    There is an endless supply of money in the world....you just need to stay in the game and get it.

    Wise words, Uncle Joe......

     The key to staying in the game, is to "know when to fold them", and to recognize that time ASAP.

    For this discussion, if it was me, I would sell immediately if not sooner, take the very limited loss, retain the money available for rehab, and use it on the next property.  It's that next property that will recover these losses, and start making the profit a that will probably never exist with this property.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    For this discussion, if it was me, I would sell immediately if not sooner, take the very limited loss, retain the money available for rehab, and use it on the next property.  It's that next property that will recover these losses, and start making the profit a that will probably never exist with this property.

    I think you're right........Given that we do not know the exact numbers we're dealing with here, I don't feel comfortable that there is a significant profit to be made in this deal.....?

  • Michael E.Pro Member
    OP
    New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    1 - At this point you are only $40k into the property, and you could sell it for $25k meaning a loss of $15k...that's it.

    2 - Any of the other options are just examples of spending more money trying to lose less money, but your analysis of each option is in the form of a percentage.  They lie.

    3 - If you do the rehab at a cost of $100k, that means you need to recover $140k,...not just $40k.

    4 - If you can only lose $15k now, doing nothing more, it would mean you would need to sell the property for at least $125k just to have the same loss as if you did nothing more.  That makes no sense at all.  Why bother?  Plus, that's more money you have to recover, and less funds remaining to use to recover that loss with.

    5 - Assuming you have the $100k to do the added rehab, or at least access to that $100k, the best choice is a combination of minimizing your cost (cash out of pocket), so that you can recover that loss quicker (smaller amount to recover and more money available ...i.e. the $100k for the major rehab...to recover the loss with).

    6 - REI is a lot like Poker...and not because they are both gambling. REI isn't gambling if done correctly. The reason they are a lot alike is because success in either one depends on the person playing/investing to have the same mindset. I'll tell you that mindset at the end.

    If you sat down to play Poker with a stack of chips, and within the first 6 hands your stack was cut in half, how much money did you lose?

    Answer:  Nothing.  Why?  Simple, you haven't lost any money...your chips (mondy) is just in a different pile on the table.  You can always get it back as long as you don't do foolish things like gambling on hands that have little or no chance of winning, and by putting more and more chips into those hands.  All that does is add to the amount of chips in different piles, add to the amount of chips you need to recover before you can start winning (making a profit), and will leave you less money (chips) to work with to recover those lost chips (cash).  A loss isn't a loss until you leave the table in Poker, or stop Investing in RE, due to lack of chips/funds.

    So, throw out percentages, and emotions from your decision making. Stop rationalizing that throwing more good money after bad will somehow buy you "fairy dust" that will fix your losses (even though the math tells you otherwise), and remember, you can always get those chips back in the next winning hands, or that lost cash in REI from the next profitable properties, as long as you focus on the new mindset you must have for both Poker and REI success...

    Just...

    ...Stay in the Game.

     Hi Joe,

    I'm enjoying this conversation, thank you for the responses. No offense, but I think you may need to take a closer look at my reply. Some of your comments seem to indicate you misunderstood my reply.

    1. The best offer I had was $10,000. Making my loss $30,000. Unless you were just using $25,000 as an example number.

    2. There were only 2 option that involved spending money. Paying someone to do it or paying for materials and doing it myself. I did the math with real numbers and only put percentages in the post to avoid using real numbers. I will not make that mistake when posting in the future.

    3. I didn't say it in that way, but that is what I said. Lose $30,000 selling as-is based on the best offer. Or lose $55,000 after paying for someone else to do the reno and selling for $85,000. 40k+100k reno = 140k. 140k-85k = 55k loss

    4 and 5. You are absolutely right! Which is why I'm doing it myself and I wouldn't be paying someone to do it even if I did have $100,000. (If I really did have $100,000 just sitting around that I could throw at this problem, I would just eat the loss, learn from it and move on.)

    6. Wouldn't selling as-is be walking away from the table? By doing the reno (spending the money whether I do it myself or not), I'm putting more chips on the table and at risk of end up in someone else's pile, in order to try and win back some chips. By doing the reno work myself, I'm putting less chips on the table but still trying to use those chips to win back more. There are still cards to be dealt, would you fold before seeing the flop? (P.S. I've already seen the river. Sorry, bad flood joke.)

    I can sit at the table all day long but I 'm not going to be dealt a hand if I don't have any chips on the table.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    For this discussion, if it was me, I would sell immediately if not sooner, take the very limited loss, retain the money available for rehab, and use it on the next property.  It's that next property that will recover these losses, and start making the profit a that will probably never exist with this property.

    I think you're right........Given that we do not know the exact numbers we're dealing with here, I don't feel comfortable that there is a significant profit to be made in this deal.....?

    At this point, it's usually emotions and/or rationalizations of some miracle save from a future event we have no control over, that tells us to stick it out.  All death wishes.  Just walk away, and live to fight (invest) another day.  A loss isn't when you lose money.  You can always recover those temporary losses, as long as you stay in the game.  A loss, is when you stop...or are forced to stop because you tricked yourself into staying where you don't belong, and can't play the game anymore.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Michael E.:
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    1 - At this point you are only $40k into the property, and you could sell it for $25k meaning a loss of $15k...that's it.

    2 - Any of the other options are just examples of spending more money trying to lose less money, but your analysis of each option is in the form of a percentage.  They lie.

    3 - If you do the rehab at a cost of $100k, that means you need to recover $140k,...not just $40k.

    4 - If you can only lose $15k now, doing nothing more, it would mean you would need to sell the property for at least $125k just to have the same loss as if you did nothing more.  That makes no sense at all.  Why bother?  Plus, that's more money you have to recover, and less funds remaining to use to recover that loss with.

    5 - Assuming you have the $100k to do the added rehab, or at least access to that $100k, the best choice is a combination of minimizing your cost (cash out of pocket), so that you can recover that loss quicker (smaller amount to recover and more money available ...i.e. the $100k for the major rehab...to recover the loss with).

    6 - REI is a lot like Poker...and not because they are both gambling. REI isn't gambling if done correctly. The reason they are a lot alike is because success in either one depends on the person playing/investing to have the same mindset. I'll tell you that mindset at the end.

    If you sat down to play Poker with a stack of chips, and within the first 6 hands your stack was cut in half, how much money did you lose?

    Answer:  Nothing.  Why?  Simple, you haven't lost any money...your chips (mondy) is just in a different pile on the table.  You can always get it back as long as you don't do foolish things like gambling on hands that have little or no chance of winning, and by putting more and more chips into those hands.  All that does is add to the amount of chips in different piles, add to the amount of chips you need to recover before you can start winning (making a profit), and will leave you less money (chips) to work with to recover those lost chips (cash).  A loss isn't a loss until you leave the table in Poker, or stop Investing in RE, due to lack of chips/funds.

    So, throw out percentages, and emotions from your decision making. Stop rationalizing that throwing more good money after bad will somehow buy you "fairy dust" that will fix your losses (even though the math tells you otherwise), and remember, you can always get those chips back in the next winning hands, or that lost cash in REI from the next profitable properties, as long as you focus on the new mindset you must have for both Poker and REI success...

    Just...

    ...Stay in the Game.

     Hi Joe,

    I'm enjoying this conversation, thank you for the responses. No offense, but I think you may need to take a closer look at my reply. Some of your comments seem to indicate you misunderstood my reply.

    1. The best offer I had was $10,000. Making my loss $30,000. Unless you were just using $25,000 as an example number.

    2. There were only 2 option that involved spending money. Paying someone to do it or paying for materials and doing it myself. I did the math with real numbers and only put percentages in the post to avoid using real numbers. I will not make that mistake when posting in the future.

    3. I didn't say it in that way, but that is what I said. Lose $30,000 selling as-is based on the best offer. Or lose $55,000 after paying for someone else to do the reno and selling for $85,000. 40k+100k reno = 140k. 140k-85k = 55k loss

    4 and 5. You are absolutely right! Which is why I'm doing it myself and I wouldn't be paying someone to do it even if I did have $100,000. (If I really did have $100,000 just sitting around that I could throw at this problem, I would just eat the loss, learn from it and move on.)

    6. Wouldn't selling as-is be walking away from the table? By doing the reno (spending the money whether I do it myself or not), I'm putting more chips on the table and at risk of end up in someone else's pile, in order to try and win back some chips. By doing the reno work myself, I'm putting less chips on the table but still trying to use those chips to win back more. There are still cards to be dealt, would you fold before seeing the flop? (P.S. I've already seen the river. Sorry, bad flood joke.)

    I can sit at the table all day long but I 'm not going to be dealt a hand if I don't have any chips on the table.

     I will respond to the last statement you just made sinc I think it answers all others.  The more money you lose, the shorter time you are going to sit at the table, and the more money you have to recover, with less funds to recover it.  If you sell now, you will walk away with whatever you walk away with.  If I'm reading this right, that would be $10k.  That's the money you continue to play the game with.  If you keep playing, pouring chips into rehab, and lose more money (cash) and time, you will have less time, money to play with, and will have more losses to recover. 

    If you fold now, you will have chips to play with.  If you don't fold now, you won't.  It's much easier to recover a smaller amount of money than a larger one...especially if you have more time and money to work with.

  • Michael E.Pro Member
    OP
    New to Real Estate · Saginaw, MI · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 115 votes
    4y

     Well, you may be right. I might end up looking back at this and agreeing with you. But if I had folded ever time life dealt me a bad hand I wouldn't be standing here today. I honestly believe that my success comes because of the difficulties have faced, not in spite of them. If I would have sold the day/week/month after the flood, I would have never joined Bigger Pockets. Or using the gambling metaphor, I never would have sat down to begin with.

    I already know how to cut and run. Now I'm going to learn how to fix a problem. As someone that has student loans, I know education can be expensive. Where you choose to get that education and what you choose to learn can make that expensive education, a blessing or a curse. An art degree from Harvard, or a cyber security degree from the state university. One of those educations costs a lot more then the other. One of those educations can be used to make a lot more money then the other. I will have to work hard to make sure that this education doesn't turn into an art degree from Harvard, but I believe it can be done.

    "Now, go do something impossible." -Jason Drees

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