Safe and stable investment: Do I buy rental properties or keep money in a HYSA?

Safe and stable investment: Do I buy rental properties or keep money in a HYSA?

Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes

Hello all,

I would really appreciate your insights here.

I live in CA and have a family with 2 kids - we're not moving anywhere. Have about 50k I would invest (access to more), with excellent credit and good income too, from my full time job. I'm the sole breadwinner. 

I tend to overanalyze things, often leading to inaction, mainly because I have a somewhat pessimistic outlook on the economy and I'm trying to avoid getting overexposed. 

Realistically, BRRR or wholesaling or other ideas that require a bigger time investment are not good for me - I run my business so I don't have much time left.

With that in mind, my first idea was to buy a condo or a house in my local area (Palm Springs, CA) and use it as a long term rental. 

The issue there is the current prices and CA laws - for the past year I've been struggling to find a property that's somewhat turnkey and that would at least break even... And CA is extremely tenant friendly so it's not a great place for a rental. 

That's why I started looking out of state. I found a good turnkey property company out in Memphis. Everything about them seems to check out, and their properties (which they sell already tenanted, and they manage) seem to break even with 25% down. They claim a small cash flow, and while that looks too optimistic, I believe that they can at least break even, so the tenants would be paying it off which is great. 

Another cool thing about that is that most their properties are in the low 100s, which means that I can buy 2 of them, and then buy another every time I can gather 25k more. It's scalable. And they sell lots of them.

My issue with them is that from a quick look it looks like they're selling everything at a 20-30% premium (which I understand and respect). At the same time, I can't help but think that if I could get connected with a great agent and property manager, then I could do the same and save a great deal of money. 

Then again this would also mean that I'd need to build a small team, and I'd need everyone to perform whereas they're bringing it all in one.

Another big thing here is the risk - as I said above I have a fairly pessimistic view about the economy in the next couple of years.. If I own a property with a 1k mortgage per month and it stays empty (or I'm trying to evict) for a couple of months then I'll be ok. But if the mortgage is 2k or 3k then I'll be in a tough spot. 

I would love to make a move before the end of the year and so I keep trying to decide which of the following is best for me:

1) Buy 1 more expensive CA property near here, and thus a better tenant (less likely to cause issues), but lose a little bit of money every month due to the current numbers, while hoping for future appreciation? 

2) Buy a few out of state properties over the next few years, through a well vetted turnkey provider like the one I mentioned above, which should more or less break even or give me a little bit of cash flow, and since I'd end up with a few doors my risk would be a little more spread out? 

3) Buy a few out of state properties directly through an agent and work with a property manager to manage them? 

4) Keep my money in a guaranteed savings account making 4.5%, until rates drop more or something changes, and the numbers are better to make a move?

Thank you in advance to everyone who read this, and moreso to those who respond with their thoughts. 

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
1y

I recommend you read "Long-Distance Real Estate Investing" by David Greene. He spells out how to invest in other markets from a distance.

I do think you are over-complicating it. Part of the problem is that we have so much information available that we don't know what is right and what is wrong, which path to choose, etc.

Slow down. Look at how people invested 20, 40, or 60 years ago. They saved up money. They found a community they believed in and a lovely house that could pay for itself with the rent income. They bought it and held it, come hell or high water. If you want more, you buy more at a pace that is comfortable for you. Once you have the number of homes you want, you pour your cash flow and extra income into the smallest mortgage until it is paid off, then you move to the next and create a snowball effect. You end up with X homes fully paid for and some crazy cash flow to live out the remainder of your days, donate to charity, or whatever your heart desires.

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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Rafael Ro:

    Hello all,

    I would really appreciate your insights here.

    I live in CA and have a family with 2 kids - we're not moving anywhere. Have about 50k I would invest (access to more), with excellent credit and good income too, from my full time job. I'm the sole breadwinner. 

    I tend to overanalyze things, often leading to inaction, mainly because I have a somewhat pessimistic outlook on the economy and I'm trying to avoid getting overexposed. 

    Realistically, BRRR or wholesaling or other ideas that require a bigger time investment are not good for me - I run my business so I don't have much time left.

    With that in mind, my first idea was to buy a condo or a house in my local area (Palm Springs, CA) and use it as a long term rental. 

    The issue there is the current prices and CA laws - for the past year I've been struggling to find a property that's somewhat turnkey and that would at least break even... And CA is extremely tenant friendly so it's not a great place for a rental. 

    That's why I started looking out of state. I found a good turnkey property company out in Memphis. Everything about them seems to check out, and their properties (which they sell already tenanted, and they manage) seem to break even with 25% down. They claim a small cash flow, and while that looks too optimistic, I believe that they can at least break even, so the tenants would be paying it off which is great. 

    Another cool thing about that is that most their properties are in the low 100s, which means that I can buy 2 of them, and then buy another every time I can gather 25k more. It's scalable. And they sell lots of them.

    My issue with them is that from a quick look it looks like they're selling everything at a 20-30% premium (which I understand and respect). At the same time, I can't help but think that if I could get connected with a great agent and property manager, then I could do the same and save a great deal of money. 

    Then again this would also mean that I'd need to build a small team, and I'd need everyone to perform whereas they're bringing it all in one.

    Another big thing here is the risk - as I said above I have a fairly pessimistic view about the economy in the next couple of years.. If I own a property with a 1k mortgage per month and it stays empty (or I'm trying to evict) for a couple of months then I'll be ok. But if the mortgage is 2k or 3k then I'll be in a tough spot. 

    I would love to make a move before the end of the year and so I keep trying to decide which of the following is best for me:

    1) Buy 1 more expensive CA property near here, and thus a better tenant (less likely to cause issues), but lose a little bit of money every month due to the current numbers, while hoping for future appreciation? 

    2) Buy a few out of state properties over the next few years, through a well vetted turnkey provider like the one I mentioned above, which should more or less break even or give me a little bit of cash flow, and since I'd end up with a few doors my risk would be a little more spread out? 

    3) Buy a few out of state properties directly through an agent and work with a property manager to manage them? 

    4) Keep my money in a guaranteed savings account making 4.5%, until rates drop more or something changes, and the numbers are better to make a move?

    Thank you in advance to everyone who read this, and moreso to those who respond with their thoughts. 


     #5: Invest the money you'd be spending on rental properties into the business you already own, creating greater profits than any of the previous 4 scenarios.

    I don't know what kind of business you have, but *in general* money invested in a profitable business is going to beat anything on "passive" real estate. RE rentals is more where you park spare money when you don't have any better opportunity for the money. I'm not saying you can't make a decent return on rentals - I and many others here have done great with it - but if you have a well-functioning, profitable business that you know, why would you gamble money into Memphis *******es, to put it bluntly? 

    It is almost always best to invest in markets you know. California is tough because it's expensive and tenant friendly but the right areas can make some killer appreciation. Houses in Memphis will barely be worth more than they are now 20 years from now, so you have to hope to have a good solid cash flow to make it make sense.

    So I would say really take a look at your business and see what opportunities there you'd be foregoing by investing in RE. 

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    1y

    I recommend you read "Long-Distance Real Estate Investing" by David Greene. He spells out how to invest in other markets from a distance.

    I do think you are over-complicating it. Part of the problem is that we have so much information available that we don't know what is right and what is wrong, which path to choose, etc.

    Slow down. Look at how people invested 20, 40, or 60 years ago. They saved up money. They found a community they believed in and a lovely house that could pay for itself with the rent income. They bought it and held it, come hell or high water. If you want more, you buy more at a pace that is comfortable for you. Once you have the number of homes you want, you pour your cash flow and extra income into the smallest mortgage until it is paid off, then you move to the next and create a snowball effect. You end up with X homes fully paid for and some crazy cash flow to live out the remainder of your days, donate to charity, or whatever your heart desires.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    OP I would follow 

    @JD Martin

    Advice on investing in your business, investing in your businesses building and third invest in your personal residence.  

    Since you’re in CA go for appreciation vs Cashflow .  If you have significant equity in your house sell it.  $250,000 capital gain per spouse is not taxable.  If you have lived there two years.  Check with your accountant for CAL specific tax laws. Take that plus your $50,000.  Pick the worst house in a great neighborhood and upgrade it.  Live there 2 years or more and do again.  

  • Tim DelaneyPro Member
    Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 790 posts · 530 votes
    1y

    A lot going on in your question. As someone that over analyzes things as well, I’d suggest you step back and think about what your goals are in order to help determine what path to take.

    I like JD’s suggestion about reinvesting in your business. Can $25k in more marketing or equipment or staff increase your profitability even more? Or free up more of your time depending on your goals? Or can you acquire another business in an adjacent field that increases profitability?

    I also noticed you left out an option to park that money in index funds and let it grow. I’m guessing that is because of your pessimistic view on the economy right now, but even if the markets dip temporarily, based on history, they will rebound to even higher points (I know just cause it’s happened before doesn’t guarantee it will happen again).

    Personally I have a successful business, but opted to diversify into real estate because my industry is heavily regulated and one change of a law could make me MUCH less profitable. However, I got into real estate mostly relying on OPM - private lenders, seller financing, and business lines of credit.

    I also don’t like the idea of buying turnkey properties at a premium. I don’t know the Memphis market, but I’m guessing there is not crazy appreciation. So if you are not cash flowing and there isn’t appreciation then the only advantage you are getting is debt pay down. If you are going into a moderate appreciation area I’d be looking for great cash flow.

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @JD Martin:
    Quote from @Rafael Ro:

    Hello all,

    I would really appreciate your insights here.

    I live in CA and have a family with 2 kids - we're not moving anywhere. Have about 50k I would invest (access to more), with excellent credit and good income too, from my full time job. I'm the sole breadwinner. 

    I tend to overanalyze things, often leading to inaction, mainly because I have a somewhat pessimistic outlook on the economy and I'm trying to avoid getting overexposed. 

    Realistically, BRRR or wholesaling or other ideas that require a bigger time investment are not good for me - I run my business so I don't have much time left.

    With that in mind, my first idea was to buy a condo or a house in my local area (Palm Springs, CA) and use it as a long term rental. 

    The issue there is the current prices and CA laws - for the past year I've been struggling to find a property that's somewhat turnkey and that would at least break even... And CA is extremely tenant friendly so it's not a great place for a rental. 

    That's why I started looking out of state. I found a good turnkey property company out in Memphis. Everything about them seems to check out, and their properties (which they sell already tenanted, and they manage) seem to break even with 25% down. They claim a small cash flow, and while that looks too optimistic, I believe that they can at least break even, so the tenants would be paying it off which is great. 

    Another cool thing about that is that most their properties are in the low 100s, which means that I can buy 2 of them, and then buy another every time I can gather 25k more. It's scalable. And they sell lots of them.

    My issue with them is that from a quick look it looks like they're selling everything at a 20-30% premium (which I understand and respect). At the same time, I can't help but think that if I could get connected with a great agent and property manager, then I could do the same and save a great deal of money. 

    Then again this would also mean that I'd need to build a small team, and I'd need everyone to perform whereas they're bringing it all in one.

    Another big thing here is the risk - as I said above I have a fairly pessimistic view about the economy in the next couple of years.. If I own a property with a 1k mortgage per month and it stays empty (or I'm trying to evict) for a couple of months then I'll be ok. But if the mortgage is 2k or 3k then I'll be in a tough spot. 

    I would love to make a move before the end of the year and so I keep trying to decide which of the following is best for me:

    1) Buy 1 more expensive CA property near here, and thus a better tenant (less likely to cause issues), but lose a little bit of money every month due to the current numbers, while hoping for future appreciation? 

    2) Buy a few out of state properties over the next few years, through a well vetted turnkey provider like the one I mentioned above, which should more or less break even or give me a little bit of cash flow, and since I'd end up with a few doors my risk would be a little more spread out? 

    3) Buy a few out of state properties directly through an agent and work with a property manager to manage them? 

    4) Keep my money in a guaranteed savings account making 4.5%, until rates drop more or something changes, and the numbers are better to make a move?

    Thank you in advance to everyone who read this, and moreso to those who respond with their thoughts. 


     #5: Invest the money you'd be spending on rental properties into the business you already own, creating greater profits than any of the previous 4 scenarios.

    I don't know what kind of business you have, but *in general* money invested in a profitable business is going to beat anything on "passive" real estate. RE rentals is more where you park spare money when you don't have any better opportunity for the money. I'm not saying you can't make a decent return on rentals - I and many others here have done great with it - but if you have a well-functioning, profitable business that you know, why would you gamble money into Memphis *******es, to put it bluntly? 

    It is almost always best to invest in markets you know. California is tough because it's expensive and tenant friendly but the right areas can make some killer appreciation. Houses in Memphis will barely be worth more than they are now 20 years from now, so you have to hope to have a good solid cash flow to make it make sense.

    So I would say really take a look at your business and see what opportunities there you'd be foregoing by investing in RE. 


    You and a few others I've spoken to make the same very good argument - investing in my business. 

    It's an agency, and I could invest in ads to drive more business.. in theory the return there would blow the return of rentals out of the park. 

    In practice, my business works mainly on referrals and organic leads, and I haven't managed to make ads successful... They're expensive.. I could keep trying and realistically it would eventually perform and help me make more money, but if I'm being honest it just doesn't sound as exciting.

    This does make me think though.. am I looking at real estate just because it sounds interesting? Not because it has the best return for me? Maybe.. 

    But then again the idea that I can buy something by putting down 25% of it's value and that I get to benefit from the appreciation of 100% of it.. while a tenant is paying down my principal... It just sounds like a great way to build wealth. 

    I also love the scalability of it. The idea that every time I gather up X amount of money, I can add to my portfolio.. and I can make that money go to work. 

    In a way it sounds easier to me than investing in my business, because I've struggled scaling my business with paid ads (which is the main investment I could make on it) and because with real estate as long as I don't try to play smart (by buying a foreclosure or a fixer or something inherently risky) and if I keep it long enough, then chances are that it would make money in the long run.. don't you think?

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

    I recommend you read "Long-Distance Real Estate Investing" by David Greene. He spells out how to invest in other markets from a distance.

    I do think you are over-complicating it. Part of the problem is that we have so much information available that we don't know what is right and what is wrong, which path to choose, etc.

    Slow down. Look at how people invested 20, 40, or 60 years ago. They saved up money. They found a community they believed in and a lovely house that could pay for itself with the rent income. They bought it and held it, come hell or high water. If you want more, you buy more at a pace that is comfortable for you. Once you have the number of homes you want, you pour your cash flow and extra income into the smallest mortgage until it is paid off, then you move to the next and create a snowball effect. You end up with X homes fully paid for and some crazy cash flow to live out the remainder of your days, donate to charity, or whatever your heart desires.

    I hear you, and that's what I want to do too. The question is where.. In my local area, the lowest of all lows would be a small condo at 200k+ which would have a pretty high HOA too, and would rent for about 20% less than the cost of the mortgage/insurance/tax. Add some maintenance and maybe some vacancy and the numbers look pretty bad. Plus my target market would be the people looking for the cheapest option - likely not the best tenants. I'd only be banking on appreciation. 

    That's why I'm thinking out of state... 
  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Henry Clark:

    OP I would follow 

    @JD Martin

    Advice on investing in your business, investing in your businesses building and third invest in your personal residence.  

    Since you’re in CA go for appreciation vs Cashflow .  If you have significant equity in your house sell it.  $250,000 capital gain per spouse is not taxable.  If you have lived there two years.  Check with your accountant for CAL specific tax laws. Take that plus your $50,000.  Pick the worst house in a great neighborhood and upgrade it.  Live there 2 years or more and do again.  

    This would make perfect sense, and we do have great equity in our house. However, with 2 young kids, schools, and the community we've built, it would be too big of a risk to do that. The upside would have to be major and I don't think the current market is the time to do that. 

    I did consider it for a minute - to sell our house and buy something maybe in Texas, so we can get a comparable home but pocket some money.. but my wife shut it down, and I understand why. If I was a bachelor I would 100% do that.

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Tim Delaney:

    A lot going on in your question. As someone that over analyzes things as well, I’d suggest you step back and think about what your goals are in order to help determine what path to take.

    I like JD’s suggestion about reinvesting in your business. Can $25k in more marketing or equipment or staff increase your profitability even more? Or free up more of your time depending on your goals? Or can you acquire another business in an adjacent field that increases profitability?

    I also noticed you left out an option to park that money in index funds and let it grow. I’m guessing that is because of your pessimistic view on the economy right now, but even if the markets dip temporarily, based on history, they will rebound to even higher points (I know just cause it’s happened before doesn’t guarantee it will happen again).

    Personally I have a successful business, but opted to diversify into real estate because my industry is heavily regulated and one change of a law could make me MUCH less profitable. However, I got into real estate mostly relying on OPM - private lenders, seller financing, and business lines of credit.

    I also don’t like the idea of buying turnkey properties at a premium. I don’t know the Memphis market, but I’m guessing there is not crazy appreciation. So if you are not cash flowing and there isn’t appreciation then the only advantage you are getting is debt pay down. If you are going into a moderate appreciation area I’d be looking for great cash flow.

    That makes sense and it is sort of what I was leaning towards. 

    I was thinking that if Memphis (and the sort) have cash flow but no appreciation... And if CA and such has negative cash flow but good appreciation.. then maybe I can find a place that has a balance of both. 

    Memphis can totally cash flow - I just don't think the turnkey properties would, due to the premium.. They would offer a more hands free approach, but eat up the profit in return. But if I bought their 120k property for 95k by buying it direct, then the numbers seem to pencil out. 

    Through some research I started looking at Greenville or San Antonio... I'm completely open.. I think it's more about the people honestly - if I decide that I'm going that route than I'd narrow it down to 4 or 5 cities and I'd try to meet some agents and property management companies from there. 

    And if I find a reliable agent and reliable property management company in one of those cities, then I'd start there. Obviously I'll never know if they're reliable until I actually work with them, but I'd do my best to vet them thoroughly.. 

    Do you think that sounds like a good plan?
  • Investor · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2017 · 394 posts · 178 votes
    1y

    @Rafael Ro have you thought about passive investing in syndications?  Sounds like you have a lot on your plate my friend!

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Colby Fryar:

    @Rafael Ro have you thought about passive investing in syndications?  Sounds like you have a lot on your plate my friend!

    I actually have not looked into that. Do you mean like a REIT or something else?
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

    I recommend you read "Long-Distance Real Estate Investing" by David Greene. He spells out how to invest in other markets from a distance.

    I do think you are over-complicating it. Part of the problem is that we have so much information available that we don't know what is right and what is wrong, which path to choose, etc.

    Slow down. Look at how people invested 20, 40, or 60 years ago. They saved up money. They found a community they believed in and a lovely house that could pay for itself with the rent income. They bought it and held it, come hell or high water. If you want more, you buy more at a pace that is comfortable for you. Once you have the number of homes you want, you pour your cash flow and extra income into the smallest mortgage until it is paid off, then you move to the next and create a snowball effect. You end up with X homes fully paid for and some crazy cash flow to live out the remainder of your days, donate to charity, or whatever your heart desires.


     This. Read it and employ it.

    The only thing I'd really hammer home is understand and study the market you want to get into-- meaning visit it multiple times, know the streets, get a healthy understanding. Budget to visit every 6-9 months that you're actively interested in investing.

    I know it appears costly and timing consuming, but not doing your diligence will cost you more. Can bet on that. 

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    @Rafael Ro

    one thing to consider - most folks in your position who are in California and buy in a supposedly low cost market - Memphis, Kansas City, Baltimore, Cleveland - don't have the right expectations.  they look at those numbers on paper, and they want that $150 per month cash flow starting in month 1, and then every month forever.  and it doesn't work like that, especially with prices and interest rates high. 

    -properties in the low 100s are going to be in more challenging neighborhoods.  you need a a really strong property manager.  and you need to be ready for rough turnovers - potentially spending a couple thousand dollars every time a tenant leaves.  most PMs charge a month's rent to place a tenant.  so even if tenants leave a place immaculate - that's a month's rent every time a new tenant moves in.  and there's cleaning, carpet, painting, patching.

    -you really won't 'cash flow' anything meaningful for 10+ years.  think about a down payment plus closing costs.  and having to replace appliances.  and a furnace.  and then a roof.  and a lot of that painting and patching i mentioned.  is RE a great long-term investment?  yep.  long-term.

    so if you have the patience for that - great!  but if you don't, don't buy a random property in a place you've never been from people you don't know.

    Baltimore - a path to never-ending pain

    Overleveraging, net worth, cash flow and headache factor

    Purchased my first Turnkey rental in Memphis, TN

    the market is in a strange place right now and so i don't have a great answer for you.  i like staying closer to home, even if a couple hours away, and at a higher price point.  you can take more ownership that way.  i know that's not for everyone either.

    hope this helps

  • Tim DelaneyPro Member
    Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 790 posts · 530 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Rafael Ro:
    Quote from @Tim Delaney:

    A lot going on in your question. As someone that over analyzes things as well, I’d suggest you step back and think about what your goals are in order to help determine what path to take.

    I like JD’s suggestion about reinvesting in your business. Can $25k in more marketing or equipment or staff increase your profitability even more? Or free up more of your time depending on your goals? Or can you acquire another business in an adjacent field that increases profitability?

    I also noticed you left out an option to park that money in index funds and let it grow. I’m guessing that is because of your pessimistic view on the economy right now, but even if the markets dip temporarily, based on history, they will rebound to even higher points (I know just cause it’s happened before doesn’t guarantee it will happen again).

    Personally I have a successful business, but opted to diversify into real estate because my industry is heavily regulated and one change of a law could make me MUCH less profitable. However, I got into real estate mostly relying on OPM - private lenders, seller financing, and business lines of credit.

    I also don’t like the idea of buying turnkey properties at a premium. I don’t know the Memphis market, but I’m guessing there is not crazy appreciation. So if you are not cash flowing and there isn’t appreciation then the only advantage you are getting is debt pay down. If you are going into a moderate appreciation area I’d be looking for great cash flow.

    That makes sense and it is sort of what I was leaning towards. 

    I was thinking that if Memphis (and the sort) have cash flow but no appreciation... And if CA and such has negative cash flow but good appreciation.. then maybe I can find a place that has a balance of both. 

    Memphis can totally cash flow - I just don't think the turnkey properties would, due to the premium.. They would offer a more hands free approach, but eat up the profit in return. But if I bought their 120k property for 95k by buying it direct, then the numbers seem to pencil out. 

    Through some research I started looking at Greenville or San Antonio... I'm completely open.. I think it's more about the people honestly - if I decide that I'm going that route than I'd narrow it down to 4 or 5 cities and I'd try to meet some agents and property management companies from there. 

    And if I find a reliable agent and reliable property management company in one of those cities, then I'd start there. Obviously I'll never know if they're reliable until I actually work with them, but I'd do my best to vet them thoroughly.. 

    Do you think that sounds like a good plan?
    It makes sense, but you are giving yourself another job/business. Nothing wrong with that as long as you understand and are ok with it. Another option that is more passive would be to invest in a syndication as an LP.
  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    @Rafael Ro some great advice already here!

    IF you decide to move forward in Memphis, recommend buying the first one turnkey to get you going.

    You'll learn a lot about rentals and the market with the first one.

    THEN, if you like results you can look for agents & PMCs to help you buy more and save the 20-30% markup you mentioned.

    Recommend you also read below info to set your expectations correctly:

    _________________________________________________________________________

    We think the Midwest is a GREAT place for OOS investors to consider!

    Check out some of things happening in Detroit in 2024:

    https://michiganchronicle.com/2024/01/03/major-developments-that-will-define-detroit-in-2024/

    Your first question shouldn't be WHERE to invest (that is #2 question), but HOW you will invest!

    Many OOS investors set themselves up for failure because they don't invest the time to ACTUALLY understand:

    1) The Class of the NEIGHBORHOOD they are buying in - which is relative to the overall area.

    2) The Class of the PROPERTY they are buying - which is relative to the overall area.

    3) The Class of the TENANT POOL the Neighborhood & Property will attract - which is relative to the overall area.

    4) The Class of the CONTRACTORS that will work on their Property, given the Neighborhood location - which is relative to the overall area.

    5) The Class of the PROPERTY MANAGEMENT COMPANIES (PMC) that will manage their Property, given the Neighborhood location and the Tenants it will attract - which is relative to the overall area.

    6) That a Class X NEIGHBORHOOD will have mostly Class X PROPERTIES, which will only attract Class X TENANTS, CONTRACTORS AND PMCs and deliver Class X RESULTS.

    7) That OOS property Class rankings are often different than the Class ranking of the local market they live.

    Class A is relatively easy to manage, can even be DIY remote managed from another state. Can usually allot 5-10% vacancy factor and same for maintenance.

    Class B usually also okay, but needs more attention from owner and/or PMC. Vacancy and maintenance factors should be higher than for Class A as homes will be older, have more deferred maintenance and tenants will be harder on them.

    Class C can be relatively successful with a great PMC (do NOT hire the cheapest!), but very difficult to DIY remote manage. Vacancy and maintenance factors should be higher than for Class A or B. Homes will have even more deferred maintenance and tenants will be even harder on them.

    Class D pretty much requires an OWNER to be on location and at the property 3-4 times/week. Most quality PMCs will not manage these properties as they understand most owners won’t pay them enough for the time required and even then it’s too difficult successfully manage them.
    ***Only exception is if an owner has plan & funds to reposition Class D to Class C or higher.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/776/topics/960183-what-they-dont-tell-you-about-cheap-rental-properties?highlight_post=5562799&page=3#p5562799

    Let us know if we can help in any other way.😊

  • Real Estate Broker · Kansas City Metro · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    In a market like Kansas City you can get $150 per month cash flow on average with the right multifamily property and right location. Just need a good broker to help find you off market deals and know the area. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2023 · 205 posts · 78 votes
    1y

    Overthinking can be a real brain freeze, and I’m not exactly qualified to speak on the topic.

    Switching gears, we just assisted a Californian investor in landing a CA$H COW. A fully occupied Section 8 duplex for $187K that rakes in a whopping $38k yearly. This gem is had vinyl windows, some refreshed baths and kitchens, a newer roof, sleek vinyl siding, and brand-new furnaces and hot water heaters installed in 2023. Now, if $50k is all you've got, I suggest you build up at least six months of reserves before diving into a deal like this. We're currently scoping out a similar duplex in Cleveland Heights and another on Cleveland's west side. For more insights on investing in such properties in Cleveland, click HERE to reach out.

  • Real Estate Agent · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 365 posts · 264 votes
    1y

    @Rafael Ro Welcome to the forums! I've got a few hundred clients in your exact same scenario, they live in markets where rentals don't make sense whether it be from a price or laws perspective. You're searching in the right area, here in the southern/middle part the laws are much friendly as well as the prices. One thing I would caution you on is the types of areas you're investing in. While low 100's seems like it's less risk because it's less out of pocket, in my experience I've found it to be the exact opposite. Cheaper properties tend to be in more challenged areas where residents where the clientele just isn't as consistent over time so there's more time, effort and energy spent chasing no payers or late payers and finding someone who takes care of the property is much farther and fewer between. Although when you do have a good renter it tends to be really good but when you get a bad one in there it's really bad. That said, I'd definitely recommend having a higher reserve fund in this type of area. A lot of my clients prefer the mid-high 100's and under 275k range because the clientele is more consistent so it makes the investment much more safe, comfortable and reliable.

    I'm not a big fan of option 4 just because that's all you're getting 4.5% no matter how you look at it. When you own leveraged real estate you're getting at least a 4.5% return just on the debt the resident is servicing. As values and rents go up over time, so does your return not to mention any additional cash flow you're getting. 

    I'd recommend options 2 or 3, at the end of the day it all comes down to the team you have in place and the experience that team has. There are great agents and property managers out there just like there are great turnkey operators who do everything for you in house. I've got a ton of experience working with both. At the end of the day you're only going to be as successful as that team allows you to be so I would definitely advise doing a deep dive and  visiting, if possible, who you'd be investing with and where before pulling the trigger. 

    Best of luck on the investment journey, feel free to reach out if I can be of any assistance! 

  • Lender · Dallas, TX · Member since 2024 · 50 posts · 24 votes
    1y

    It sounds like you’re in a solid position, but I get your hesitation. I’d recommend option 2 (buying a few out-of-state properties via a turnkey provider) for scalability and less hands-on involvement. While you’ll pay a premium, it offers convenience and mitigates some risk. Option 3 (working directly with an agent and property manager) can save you money, but it requires more time and effort to manage. Option 1 doesn’t seem ideal given California’s tenant laws and current market. Option 4 (keeping money in savings) is safe, but you may miss better returns in real estate.

    Good luck!

  • James WachobBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Memphis, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 887 votes
    1y

    Hi @Rafael Ro,

    I completely get where you’re coming from, and it sounds like you’ve done a lot of thoughtful research. Memphis can actually be a great choice for real estate investing, especially for someone with your situation.

    First off, property prices in Memphis are much more affordable compared to markets like CA, so with $50k, you can actually make a bigger impact. You can potentially purchase multiple properties, which is a huge plus for spreading out risk. Memphis has a relatively low cost of living, and that’s reflected in the property prices. For example, you can buy properties in the low $100k range that are already cash-flow positive or close to break-even with good tenants in place. Plus, the property taxes are typically lower than in California, which can be a huge cost-saver in the long run.

    Another benefit is Memphis’s strong rental demand. With a large and diverse population, there’s a steady demand for rental properties, particularly in the affordable price range. With tenants in place and a property management company handling everything, you’re not having to worry about much hands-on work. A good turnkey company can make things smooth for you, even if you’re out of state.

    Regarding the price premium from turnkey providers, you’re right in noticing the markup. But when you factor in the convenience of having everything done for you, it’s sometimes worth the extra cost, especially when you don’t have the time or resources to manage it yourself. That said, if you’re open to putting in some work to build your team and find properties yourself, you might be able to save some money and find deals directly. It just depends on how much time you’re willing to commit.

    As for your concern about the economy, it’s understandable. Real estate does have risks, but in Memphis, you’re dealing with more affordable properties, which can help you weather potential downturns. A smaller mortgage means lower overhead, which is crucial if you’re worried about vacancies. Plus, with the relatively stable rental market in Memphis, it’s less likely you’ll face extended vacancies compared to more volatile areas.

    Overall, option 2 (buying a few out-of-state properties) seems like a solid choice. It allows you to spread your risk and grow your portfolio without overextending yourself. Memphis offers solid rental returns with less of the volatility you might face in California or other high-priced areas.

    Hope that helps! Let me know if you have more questions or want to dive deeper into any part of this.

    Cheers!

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Tim Delaney:
    Quote from @Rafael Ro:
    Quote from @Tim Delaney:

    A lot going on in your question. As someone that over analyzes things as well, I’d suggest you step back and think about what your goals are in order to help determine what path to take.

    I like JD’s suggestion about reinvesting in your business. Can $25k in more marketing or equipment or staff increase your profitability even more? Or free up more of your time depending on your goals? Or can you acquire another business in an adjacent field that increases profitability?

    I also noticed you left out an option to park that money in index funds and let it grow. I’m guessing that is because of your pessimistic view on the economy right now, but even if the markets dip temporarily, based on history, they will rebound to even higher points (I know just cause it’s happened before doesn’t guarantee it will happen again).

    Personally I have a successful business, but opted to diversify into real estate because my industry is heavily regulated and one change of a law could make me MUCH less profitable. However, I got into real estate mostly relying on OPM - private lenders, seller financing, and business lines of credit.

    I also don’t like the idea of buying turnkey properties at a premium. I don’t know the Memphis market, but I’m guessing there is not crazy appreciation. So if you are not cash flowing and there isn’t appreciation then the only advantage you are getting is debt pay down. If you are going into a moderate appreciation area I’d be looking for great cash flow.

    That makes sense and it is sort of what I was leaning towards. 

    I was thinking that if Memphis (and the sort) have cash flow but no appreciation... And if CA and such has negative cash flow but good appreciation.. then maybe I can find a place that has a balance of both. 

    Memphis can totally cash flow - I just don't think the turnkey properties would, due to the premium.. They would offer a more hands free approach, but eat up the profit in return. But if I bought their 120k property for 95k by buying it direct, then the numbers seem to pencil out. 

    Through some research I started looking at Greenville or San Antonio... I'm completely open.. I think it's more about the people honestly - if I decide that I'm going that route than I'd narrow it down to 4 or 5 cities and I'd try to meet some agents and property management companies from there. 

    And if I find a reliable agent and reliable property management company in one of those cities, then I'd start there. Obviously I'll never know if they're reliable until I actually work with them, but I'd do my best to vet them thoroughly.. 

    Do you think that sounds like a good plan?
    It makes sense, but you are giving yourself another job/business. Nothing wrong with that as long as you understand and are ok with it. Another option that is more passive would be to invest in a syndication as an LP.
    Am I giving myself another job/business? In my mind I'm not. If I am able to source properties in markets with potential appreciation and (even if minimal) cash flow, after all expenses are covered and with a property manager, then it sounds like it wouldn't take up much of my time. I'm thinking the agent/broker would find the deals for me and the property manager would deal with tenants and their requests. Am I wrong?

    I don't mean to make it sound super easy... I know a lot of things can go wrong and I can lose money. But would it take up a lot of time, as a job/business would?
  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Drew Sygit:

    @Rafael Ro some great advice already here!

    IF you decide to move forward in Memphis, recommend buying the first one turnkey to get you going.

    You'll learn a lot about rentals and the market with the first one.

    THEN, if you like results you can look for agents & PMCs to help you buy more and save the 20-30% markup you mentioned.

    Recommend you also read below info to set your expectations correctly:

    _________________________________________________________________________

    We think the Midwest is a GREAT place for OOS investors to consider!

    Check out some of things happening in Detroit in 2024:

    https://michiganchronicle.com/2024/01/03/major-developments-that-will-define-detroit-in-2024/

    Your first question shouldn't be WHERE to invest (that is #2 question), but HOW you will invest!

    Many OOS investors set themselves up for failure because they don't invest the time to ACTUALLY understand:

    1) The Class of the NEIGHBORHOOD they are buying in - which is relative to the overall area.

    2) The Class of the PROPERTY they are buying - which is relative to the overall area.

    3) The Class of the TENANT POOL the Neighborhood & Property will attract - which is relative to the overall area.

    4) The Class of the CONTRACTORS that will work on their Property, given the Neighborhood location - which is relative to the overall area.

    5) The Class of the PROPERTY MANAGEMENT COMPANIES (PMC) that will manage their Property, given the Neighborhood location and the Tenants it will attract - which is relative to the overall area.

    6) That a Class X NEIGHBORHOOD will have mostly Class X PROPERTIES, which will only attract Class X TENANTS, CONTRACTORS AND PMCs and deliver Class X RESULTS.

    7) That OOS property Class rankings are often different than the Class ranking of the local market they live.

    Class A is relatively easy to manage, can even be DIY remote managed from another state. Can usually allot 5-10% vacancy factor and same for maintenance.

    Class B usually also okay, but needs more attention from owner and/or PMC. Vacancy and maintenance factors should be higher than for Class A as homes will be older, have more deferred maintenance and tenants will be harder on them.

    Class C can be relatively successful with a great PMC (do NOT hire the cheapest!), but very difficult to DIY remote manage. Vacancy and maintenance factors should be higher than for Class A or B. Homes will have even more deferred maintenance and tenants will be even harder on them.

    Class D pretty much requires an OWNER to be on location and at the property 3-4 times/week. Most quality PMCs will not manage these properties as they understand most owners won’t pay them enough for the time required and even then it’s too difficult successfully manage them.
    ***Only exception is if an owner has plan & funds to reposition Class D to Class C or higher.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/776/topics/960183-what-they-dont-tell-you-about-cheap-rental-properties?highlight_post=5562799&page=3#p5562799

    Let us know if we can help in any other way.😊

    This is very helpful - thank you. 

    It is also what I am starting to realize. 

    Class C and D areas/properties will always cash flow better on paper, but on paper things like extra repairs, turnover, evictions and such are often not taken into account. 

    I am leaning towards Class B. Not the nicest areas, but nice enough.. and I would be looking for minimal cashflow, banking on appreciation. 

    The reason is that I'm looking at this as a long term investment where my goal is to grow my money with minimal headaches (even if that means slower growth). 

    With that in mind, maybe Memphis is not the place to invest. Would you agree?

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alex Olson:

    In a market like Kansas City you can get $150 per month cash flow on average with the right multifamily property and right location. Just need a good broker to help find you off market deals and know the area. 

    My concern with lower class neighborhoods is that the $100-300 cashflow on paper seems to be eaten up by the increased vacancies and repairs. Is that not what you've seen in your experience with Kansas City?
  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Gladimir Lobo:

    Overthinking can be a real brain freeze, and I’m not exactly qualified to speak on the topic.

    Switching gears, we just assisted a Californian investor in landing a CA$H COW. A fully occupied Section 8 duplex for $187K that rakes in a whopping $38k yearly. This gem is had vinyl windows, some refreshed baths and kitchens, a newer roof, sleek vinyl siding, and brand-new furnaces and hot water heaters installed in 2023. Now, if $50k is all you've got, I suggest you build up at least six months of reserves before diving into a deal like this. We're currently scoping out a similar duplex in Cleveland Heights and another on Cleveland's west side. For more insights on investing in such properties in Cleveland, click HERE to reach out.

    Why would you recommend 6 months on reserves for a deal like this? With the numbers you're talking about it looks like there is plenty of room to cover all sorts of unforseen issues, and still perform great. What am I missing?
  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y

    Thanks so much Taz. 

    Question for you - specifically for Memphis - do you think that it's realistic for me to focus on a handful of nicer areas, and work with an agent to source deals that would be more or less turnkey, and a property manager to tenant and manage them, and have positive cash flow? 

    Or are there too many unknowns and paying the premium of a turnkey provider (which would likely eat up the cash flow) make sense to have the peace of mind?

  • Member since 2020 · 52 posts · 14 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Tanarat Bunchom:

    It sounds like you’re in a solid position, but I get your hesitation. I’d recommend option 2 (buying a few out-of-state properties via a turnkey provider) for scalability and less hands-on involvement. While you’ll pay a premium, it offers convenience and mitigates some risk. Option 3 (working directly with an agent and property manager) can save you money, but it requires more time and effort to manage. Option 1 doesn’t seem ideal given California’s tenant laws and current market. Option 4 (keeping money in savings) is safe, but you may miss better returns in real estate.

    Good luck!

    Thank you! I'm between those two as well, but leaning towards working with an agent and property manager.. I only say that because it may take longer to get it going, but then I'd have a better chance of cash flowing... Then again this can come back and bite me in the butt if things go south, but I guess the same is true with a turnkey provider to a certain extent.
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