Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
When I first started out in this biz, I read a ton of books, attended a ton of seminars and paid for training/bootcamps from the gurus (my only real mistake). After having a solid foundation under my belt as far as education goes, I lacked the ability to apply that information and education in the real world.
What got me over the hump was actually doing it with others. The hands on work really gave me the confidence and experience to begin my career as a REI. Then I got a mentor who guided me even more, doing deals together and taking my career to the next level.
That has been my experience getting started and I was curious to know how many of you would like to share what the most important stepping stone was for your STARTING success? Also, are you the type that can read books, study materials and read and ask questions on forums such as BP and apply that in the real world or are yo the type that requires more hands on experience to accomplish that same goal?
I've always told interested parties not to spend the 20K on seminars or gurus. Use the 20K and go buy SOMETHING!!! IMO, you'll learn more from that approach than ever spending the 20K in guru land. Lots of free info on here from folks as good or better than the gurus. You may luck out and actually buy something good.
Remember, the seminar companies will keep trying to bleed you till the investment money is gone. Hands on imo. Rich.
Mike, my example was just one to prove a point. Perhaps it was not the best one, but everyone else gets the idea. I don't have rentals in OH or MI where it gets below freezing so some of the items of necessity for you are non applicable to me.
You seem to miss the point Mike. It is not just about checklists and reading discusions of topics covered here.
There is more to investing than that.
For example, there are many topics about purchasing sub2 right here on BP. DOes that mean a newbie investor could read everyone of the posts and go out on their own and do the deals successfully and profitably (and more important, legally) right off the bat? The answer is no, not in most cases. Therefore, paying someone like Nick J for example, to guide them and teach them is worth the money in my opinion.
Just the same, there are many discussions about doing short sales and they cover just about every detail, but still newbies don't seem to be running out and completing these deals successfully and regularly or we certaihnly would here about it in the success stories. The answer to why is that is obvious and proves my point in this thread.
I think that Sub 2 is an excellent example. I would answer your question with a resounding YES! Yes, you could read every post here on BP and then go do a deal successfully and legally. I actually starting doing Sub 2 deals before I found BP. In my case, I bought a $39 E-book off the internet and started doing sub 2 deals with the information in that E-book. So, to answer your original question, can you read books or read BP and be successful without spending thousands of dollars paying a mentor or coach? ABSOLUTELY YES!
Bottom line: The choice is up to each individual. Many gave their opinion that hands on was the best teacher and several agree that going out on your own could be a costly mistake.
You have given an example of yourself that you went on your own after reading a book and became a success. Congrats! Just know that you are in the minority percentage as over 90% who do that very same thing - FAIL!
Just know that you are in the minority percentage as over 90% who do that very same thing - FAIL!
I'd guess that about 90% of people who pay a guru also don't succeed, as I'd guess that 90% don't ever do a single deal (and yet still threw away thousands of dollars on training).
These people pay large sums of money hoping to find an easy path to riches, and think that the only price they need to pay is the cost of the seminar or training. What they don't realize is that the cost of success in this business is hard work, and that doesn't change no matter how much you pay a guru.
I have nothing against paying a guru or going to high-priced seminars, but I would doubt the success rate going this route is going to be much (if at all) higher than studying on your own and then making a go of it.
Personally, I spent a year studying, then did a dozen successful flips in the next year, without spending a dime on seminars, gurus, or high-priced "mentors".
I agree 100%. The vast majority of people don't succeed because they're not willing to pay the price of admission, which as J Scott said, is HARD WORK!
And proof of that is the number of gurus that offer to reimburse their student's cost of admission to their course if the student actually does a deal. Obviously, they do that because they know that the vast majority will never do a deal! It's kind of ridiculous if you think about it. They're so positive that their students are failures that they actually put their money on that bet (and win)!!! LOL!
And you would be wrong J. It's 95% failure rate at the guru seminars. But my thread here was not about guru seminars and so-called training programs, that was conveniently thrown in by Mike to divert the purpose of this thread.
I am strictly talking about finding someone experienced enough to be able to mentor and actually deliver GOOD advice and coaching to the newbie. The reason for the high failure rate at the guru programs is simple, they really don't teach you anything specific and substantial. Thet are filled with fluff and false promises and unrealistic scenarios.
I appreciate your response though, I don't much care for (hate is too strong of a word here) the gurus either and rarely recommend someone go to them, although there are selcet few good ones out there. :lol:
Mike, please don't hijack the thread. We are not discussing guru seminars here but what seems to work better for each person, hands on working and training in the field or reading books/forums/etc and going on your own.
Will, I didn't hijack your thread. If you'll read above, you'll see that J Scott brought up seminars. Here's his quote. But thanks for blaming me anyway!!!
Will, I didn't hijack your thread. If you'll read above, you'll see that J Scott brought up seminars.
So he did! My appologies.
Although I took the following line of yours to mean the same thing which you have posted with very similar phrasing in at least 3 posts in this thread already.
Originally posted by MikeOH:
I certainly don't need to pay a coach or mentor thousands of dollars to learn lessons that are available for FREE!
That is coming from someone with the ability to go out on his own and do it. You are one of the few.
Although I took the following line of yours to mean the same thing which you have posted with very similar phrasing in at least 3 posts in this thread already.
Originally posted by MikeOH
I certainly don't need to pay a coach or mentor thousands of dollars to learn lessons that are available for FREE!
Well, now you've got me confused. I thought we were talking about coaches and mentors vs. doing it yourself.
True, but I think that was J Scott's point (even though he mentioned the word "seminar") - that only one of the few will ever succeed. It isn't that they succeed because they did or didn't have a mentor, they succeed because they are self-motivated and they work hard.
I think that Sub 2 is an excellent example. I would answer your question with a resounding YES! Yes, you could read every post here on BP and then go do a deal successfully and legally. I actually starting doing Sub 2 deals before I found BP. In my case, I bought a $39 E-book off the internet and started doing sub 2 deals with the information in that E-book. So, to answer your original question, can you read books or read BP and be successful without spending thousands of dollars paying a mentor or coach? ABSOLUTELY YES!
Mike
Mike, Did you find that E-book at a guru based internet site?
I guess my main point here is that it will require somewhat of a combination of the two. No matter which way you go, it just does not sink in untill you actually do it!
And when you do make a mistake (and you will) you will curse yourself because you were warned about that and say I should have known better, or now I realize what they meant!!!!
I would be nice to have someone by your side to prevent you from making those mistakes, but that is almost impossible in todays 24/7 society, so reading and most importantly COMPREHENDING what is read.
What to read? Mike's E-book, this BP forum, a checklist, some guru's how to list, ect. that could be the real question as well as the quality of the content so that the comprehension can also be quality.
Then at the Doing stage (those that cant Guru) we are all fearful the first time so a good true mentor (not a guru) does have value. And should not be dismissed, but is not needed by everyone either.
Most people are not do'ers and therefore need to be kept on the "path" as it witnessed by the failure rate of both types of systems. But the doer type will succeed no matter where he gets his info from or at what cost.
So the choices seem to boil down to me to "quality of info" and "cost".
"Quality of info" Dont go to a guru for this
"Cost" A guru will be glad to help you here
"Quality of info" A good mentor is a possibility here, but at what "cost".
In my opinion it is the same as investors looking for a buyers "skin in the game".
A good mentor (not a guru) is going to do what is right but wants to know (just like the investor) that you are not likely to walk away when (and it will) it gets hard because hard work is necessary to succeed.
I'd second those who said learn the basic. It is crucial!! The 50% role, the 1% rule, the different between Quit Claim and a special Warranty deed, etc. If you don't learn the basics, you'd be burn so hard that you won't touch that "real estate thing" ever again.
Beyond that, I'd say to any rookie, start with something you feel comfortable with. Something that suit your character. If the guru told you that the best way to get rich is by double flipping a double closing subject to your dead grandma reincarnation, and all you wanted to do is get couple of properties so you can generate some cash flow - Don't even try it cause you would fail.
I learned a lot from a good friend who've been in the business for a long time and I also use my common sense. I play lots of "What if" scenarios and analyze deals that either went bad or completed to learn from it.
No, I got it from a guy named Steven Severe (as I recall - it's been a few years). He appeared to me to just be a successful investor who wrote down what he knew about the subject. I found it to be very complete and thorough and the price was certainly reasonable. If you're wondering - I am in no way connected to this person; I've never met him or talked to him on the phone, via e-mail, or in person; and I don't sell anything for him.
Just for clarification, I am not agains "mentors". What I am against is paying a mentor. My suggestion is always to make friends with a local SUCCESSFUL investor and have your new friend help you (mentor you) for free.
This has at least 3 advantages:
1. It won't cost you a bunch of money (that could be better used doing a deal)
2. Your new FRIEND will actually care about you and your success
3. Your new FRIEND will know the local market; local issues; local conditions; local values, etc.
Even though you did not know him and it was not from any guru site, my point there was the cost factor.
He got his "notes" written down about the subject published and he recieved a royalty from you purchasing that book. So you did pay that mentor of yours.
I hope that you realize that I was bringing into focus this fact. You (and everyone) does pay for the information that they get. Even if it is only the time that they spend reading what they get for free. That time has value.
No mentor can afford to mentor a friend for free or their "friends" will end up having to support the mentor at some point because he is so busy mentoring that he cant make any money of his own.
There has to be some mixture of payment for the true mentors out there or there will be no mentors at all for us to learn from.
No mentor can afford to mentor a friend for free or their "friends" will end up having to support the mentor at some point because he is so busy mentoring that he cant make any money of his own.
Why do you say that?
I try to always be mentoring at least one or two people at any given time, and for the most part, it doesn't detract at all from the time I spend making money.
Basically, a lunch discussion here and there (I need to eat, right?), tagging along while I'm looking at properties (I need to look at properties, right?), hanging out with my project manager while rehabs are going on (the work is being done one way or the other), etc, is all it takes to teach someone how to be successful doing what I do. And it takes very little of my time to do that.
Of course, while I never charge anything to mentor, I'm very picky about who I'll spend my time helping...
Even though you did not know him and it was not from any guru site, my point there was the cost factor.
He got his "notes" written down about the subject published and he recieved a royalty from you purchasing that book. So you did pay that mentor of yours.
I hope that you realize that I was bringing into focus this fact. You (and everyone) does pay for the information that they get. Even if it is only the time that they spend reading what they get for free. That time has value.
No mentor can afford to mentor a friend for free or their "friends" will end up having to support the mentor at some point because he is so busy mentoring that he cant make any money of his own.
There has to be some mixture of payment for the true mentors out there or there will be no mentors at all for us to learn from.
You said you limit it to one or two. This is fine. But if they had friends who had friends it would take up so much of your time that you could not do anything else except have those dinner meetings. Of course you have to pay everything since you charge no one anything.
I am not against mentoring, just the guru's, and pointing out its limits. Just as you limit your time to one or two and only if they meet with your approval, which also had to cost you something to figure out who of the hundreds or thousands of applicants would merit your time.
The point is that mentoring is a good thing, but it also has its costs to the mentor. Those costs are such that if he were to get tied up with only mentoring (because of his good reputatuion) then he would no longer have the time to make his money that enables him to mentor.
Those costs alone with no money comming in from what he was doing or the mentoree will bankrupt him in no time.
But that is not an endorsement to the Guru's to mentor and charge for their services! It should be the mentoree's responsibility to repay the mentor in kind.
I would bet you that most good mentors do not want any money for their services but would say (as Jesus did) "Go and do thou likewise".
would anyone be willing to be my mentor? I have asked before, and haven't had any takers. I have totally exhausted all of my money, and am not able to make my morgtage payments on my 3 properties in Ga. I can't sleep at night. I have made so many stupid mistakes, but I have also been ripped off. Is anyone willing to give me some advice, I feel so foolish--- thanks
Jawsette has made several good points in the posts since I have been away. What I, Jawsette, and several others are saying is that paying for someone's time to mentor you is nOT a waste of money so long as it is reasonable, and the education/experience given by the mentor is valid and of substantial quality.
Originally posted by MikeOH:
My suggestion is always to make friends with a local SUCCESSFUL investor and have your new friend help you (mentor you) for free.
You have made this very same statement many times in many threads. While I agree that it is a great suggestion, the truth is, there are not that many SUCCESSFUL investors there who are just going to give away their time to some newbie they just met at the meeting. One would have to attend many meetings each and every month, making small talk conversation and attempting to build a relationship with them FIRST. This takes time, effort, and a decent personality to pull it off. That all equates to money in my book as our time is money (or time away from family).
Saying this, and having it happen each time for every newbie just doesn't happen.
Case in point:
Here is someone desperately requesting a mentor from all the SUCCESSFUL investors here on BP and how many have jumped up to mentor her? NONE. My feeling is it is much of the same at the REIA meetings. I belong to several and until you develop relationships with someone, you will be hard pressed to make this attempt of free mentoring happen.
Will, that's because everyone was SLEEPING! Now that it daytime once again, I'm sure that everyone will be happy to help her.
Fran, I'll be happy to help you. Post your questions right here on BiggerPockets in the Landlording forum and I will respond. In addition, I'm sure than many others will respond also.
I agree, most REIAs probably have only a dozen successful investors. I would say that the same is true of BiggerPockets or any other entity you look at. There will always be a huge percentage of the population that are wannabes or newbies. None of that changes the fact that if you befriend someone, they will likely help you for free. Moreover, a local successful investor will know the ins and outs of your local market, which is EXTREMELY valuable and something some paid mentor doesn't have.
There are folks on here willing to provide advice and answer questions for free. I've always tried to set up meetings with BP members and aoffer any help they need. I don't charge and never will. I have sufficient passive income coming in that I could spend any time needed to help.
I'm not selling anything, even my book, I've never charged a single penny and even pay the shipping.
If I don't have the time to answer immediately to messages, I tell them that and get back to them later. Not all posters need to be earning money 24 hours a day. Rich.
Well I'll tell you one area where READING beats HANDS-ON every day of the week --
LEGAL! As in avoiding litigation, lawsuits, smal claims disputes and so on.
And since laws and codes are location-specific there's no easy way to CYA without studying the original sources.
But as most landlords here know, you'll still get plenty of hands-on experience in small-claims court handling evictions or monetary claims and so forth.
Sadly, if you're a landlord long enough, you may also become the unlucky target of an ambulance-chaser betting on a quick payoff from an insurance company.
There are already gurus teaching seminars on that.