Reading or Hands on, what works best for you?
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
When I first started out in this biz, I read a ton of books, attended a ton of seminars and paid for training/bootcamps from the gurus (my only real mistake). After having a solid foundation under my belt as far as education goes, I lacked the ability to apply that information and education in the real world.
What got me over the hump was actually doing it with others. The hands on work really gave me the confidence and experience to begin my career as a REI. Then I got a mentor who guided me even more, doing deals together and taking my career to the next level.
That has been my experience getting started and I was curious to know how many of you would like to share what the most important stepping stone was for your STARTING success? Also, are you the type that can read books, study materials and read and ask questions on forums such as BP and apply that in the real world or are yo the type that requires more hands on experience to accomplish that same goal?
I've always told interested parties not to spend the 20K on seminars or gurus. Use the 20K and go buy SOMETHING!!! IMO, you'll learn more from that approach than ever spending the 20K in guru land. Lots of free info on here from folks as good or better than the gurus. You may luck out and actually buy something good.
Remember, the seminar companies will keep trying to bleed you till the investment money is gone. Hands on imo. Rich.
Will, I'm crushed that you don't like my comedy routine. On a more serious note, Both Rich and I have volunteered to help Fran, but I haven't seen a question posted or been contacted by her.
Mike
Thats fine Mike, I will answer any questions she has on this forum as well, but that is not what this thread is talking about. AGAIN, having specific questions and getting answers to them on this forum or anywhere else is ONE thing, having a mentor one on one is another!
How is it different if she gets the answers she needs here on BiggerPockets for free vs. getting the answers from a "mentor" that charges her $5K (other than her being out the $5k)?
Mike
OK MIke, perhaps you can grasp the concept in this example:
You run a landlording biz and several people right here on BP have asked you how you got over 4 properties since the old loan limit was at 4. You have stated time and again, "go to your local small bank, speak with the higher ups (VP of bank, etc), bring a biz plan, and get commercial loans, of course you have to still personally guarantee them. (NOTE: this is not a direct quote, but close enough)
Fine, great answer, but a generalization just the same.
On the other hand, you sit down with a newbie investor, show them YOUR exact biz plan, take them to the bank, let them watch you in action speak with and present your investment and loan application, see the actual results, and close the loan. Now that investor has real life experience with your actual docs, forms, process, etc. which certainly is worth a reasonable payment for your efforts and time.
THAT is the difference and answering questions on a forum for free does not come anywhere in the same zip code as the real life experience and documentation/contacts, etc.
Of course the problem with this is You are unwilling to do this since you never share any details about anything, you don't even list what city you are from on your profile!
I can see that you want to go back and forth on this due to you wanting to prove nobody should pay a dime for any RE mentoring, you are anti-guru (which I am too), etc, and yet you sell a book and market it here on BP for money. Seems like a contradiction to me, but that is just my opinion. And just so you know, I have no problem with you selling a book, I am merely pointing out that you sell something for your time as well and that time is not one on one hence the price can be much lower.
Can we get back on topic please . . .
Is hands on experience or reading books/forums/etc. better?
I thought that this WAS the topic.
Will
Very good thread. I think its not a study
vs doing it thing. I like to think of it as possessing a double edge sword and I'm going into battle and I need to use both edges at the same time.thing.
The real factor is going into battle. Most wannabees just think of going into battle, some might even throw a rock at the enemy and then run, of course it is nice if you know which end of the sword to hold.
My real real estate investing career began one week after my 16th birthday in 1955 with my 19 year old married brother as my partner. Remember back then you had to be 21 to wheel and deal. but being 19 and married allowed my brother to buy and sell and pay me off outside the deal.
There were no books on how to or sites to ask questions on, you flew by the seat of your pants. However my father taught us to always go to the right place and get it from the horses mouth. It was hard having Realtors, title companies, and every one else tied to real estate take me seriously when I went to them for answers but there were enough people who did take the time.
So being hands on gave me the knowledge of what I didn't know and what I needed to find out. And of course we hear I don't have time to do anything but study now. BS I was going to high school, had a 20 hour a week after school job, chores around home to do, and a steady girlfriend to keep happy.
So if I was allowed to only give a new investor only one piece of advice it would be to jump in and worry about learning as you go. Unless your totally stupid your not going to drown. Even if your first deal only broke even, or even if it lost a few bucks, your way ahead of the game for doing it.
I think there have been many valuable points discussed here and I certainly enjoy Will and Mike going back and forth like an old married couple sitting in their rocking chairs on the front porch.
I think I voted like 5 or 6 times to responses, I don't know if you guys caught it or not but I thought there was a lot of lessons to be learned in the dialogue within these posts.
a big thumbs up to everyone who believes in themselves so much they've refused to back down and argue their point.
on another note, Brian, if you've ever got a lot of time and just want to tell stories from your many years of experience I should would love to listen. I can only imagine the amazing stories and invaluable lessons you've must have learned in all your years.
Will you be my friend? :mrgreen:
Most of us have been through it. They call it "analysis paralysis". You just have to get out there and play.
You'll never learn the game sitting on the bench. The more you talk to the players in the game, i.e., sellers, buyers, agents, escrow, etc. you'll find out that their all just people. All trying to reach the same goal. Get a deal done.
I have always been a doing sort. But with that said, you can not even imagine how to do until you read, or hear (radio, tv commercial) about how it can be done. Then even us doers will not completely understand and there will be "leaks" in our first attempts at building anything due to the missing information that we find through the old tried and true "trial and error" method because our "gameplan" is flawed and it will cost us something. Maybe not out entire investment funds, but something.
I think Rich's post here really said it best!
But in my start I just went out and did without any help to prove to my brother that what he was thinking of could be done, but he did not need the GURU's supervision and "mentoring".
I succeeded in getting started in investing this way and proved to myself that even us doers will at some point need to stop doing and READ to educate ourselves on how to stop those leaks or we will indeed fail as well.
So wheather your start as "hands on" or "reading" , both will be needed to be done and I will add one more phase to prevent failure and that is the use of COMMON SENSE to know when to stop and get help (for us doers) or stop reading and get started (for the readers).
Plus the use of that COMMON SENSE to look back and realize you have leaks or havent yet started instead of just continuing doing the do'ing or reading and not realizing that you are going down in flames.
I still haven't seen a single question to help with her mentoring. I hope the nit-picking didn't scare her away. Will and Mike oh are 2 of the best. We all differ on things, and that is what makes this fun on BP. I'm going back to my rocking chair now for a few minutes. Then, I gotta go buy something today. Been going nuts here in swfl. Time to make some offers on a few homes today. GO BUY SOMETHING and ,make it a great day! Rich.
...and I don't expect that you ever will. People like to make excuses why they can't succeed, but they aren't willing to do what is needed to succeed. This is the same issue that Will ran into with his "Mastermind" thread. Everyone wants to talk about real estate, but very few people really are serious about doing real estate. How many members does BP have, 30,000+? Yet, how many of those members are successful real estate investors - a dozen? Why is that? Because the vast majority of people in this country are talkers - not doers!
The information is right here on BP (absolutely free) to enable people to start and successfully run just about every type of real estate business - yet the vast majority of people aren't really serious about doing it.
One of the reasons that more people don't use the info here to become successful is that they don't want to believe that real estate investing is a relatively simple business and/or that hard work is required. They would rather pay thousands (or tens of thousands of dollars) to slick talking gurus in search of a "SECRET" that doesn't exist.
I would argue that there is no reason to have a flawed game plan or to have "leaks" in your business. All the information that is needed to start and run a successful (leak-free) business the first time is here on BP for free. A newbie just needs to take a few days to read and absorb it (which requires a little work). Starting with a flawed game plan and making expensive mistakes is NOT necessary and not inevitable!
Books - yes. Forums - yes. Studying - yes. Doing - yes!
Mike
Very, very true Mike, but I was considering things as they were when we first got started. And that was before Josh created this great site!
With this site, no excuses!!!!!!!!!
Now I have to get back into my rocking chair as Nick said (even though I am only 35!)
This can really be answered very easily.
For a successful real estate investment career, the two are complimentary and go hand in hand. One without the other is a complete disaster waiting to happen.
At the end of the day, there is no teacher like hands on experience. Experience can be a brutal master because without the proper educational foundation and reference, you end up putting your hand on the stove because you weren't educated to know that it is hot.
Reading is utilized to begin and continue the educational process to initially lay a foundation and then continue building on it once you have gained some real world hands on experience.
The interesting and exciting part about real estate investment is that no two deals are identical. As a result, anything learned from reading simply provides a basis from which to start.
Hands on experience working on individual deals then continues the educational process with the myriad nuances and curve balls of real estate investing.
As an avid reader, I have read books and/or taken courses from real estate experts like Robert Allen, Robert Kyosaki, Donald Trump, Carleton Sheets, Dolf de Roos, Gary Keller, William Bronchick, and hundreds of others. Some were excellent and provided practical real world application and some did not.
As a full time professional real estate investor, you are in a constant state of education learning something new every day, whether by reading or by real world hands on experience.
In reality, the two are really cyclical. You read a strategy that you decide to implement. Because every deal is different, the deal throws an unexpected curve ball that you must deal with for a successful conclusion. So, you go back to square one and read up and continue the educational process to learn how to move over, under, around or through the obstacle.
While books and courses are great, it is impossible for them to cover every possible detail or risk that may come up in a real estate deal, especially given the current market and legislative climates.
So, the guidance here would be to continuously read but do not allow it to create analysis paralysis. Pick a strategy that fits within your experience, income, assets, reserves, credit and risk tolerance and then jump in and start working on some live deals!
Vincent, a most excellent post. Thank you for your contribution.
By reading and learning what you can you are better prepared for the actual implementation of any investment plan. I feel it is best to have a mix and then your experience is stirred into the pot to give you an even better base to work from!
Also a great point realtyman, I concur.