Funding a second purchase

Funding a second purchase

Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes

Hello again! Another money question :)

Thanks to the folks who answered my first question about funding repairs, but now that brings me to a different question: purchasing second, third etc properties.

So say you have enough money to purchase a property with 20% down and you're also able to do a few repairs. You also have a little cushion of your own because you've already purchased a house that you live in (not house hacking or looking to really "flip it") and have dreams of being able to do bigger changes in your own home or going on a nice vacation someday.

So now you've spent a really good chunk of change buying that first property and doing some repairs and now you're making an extra $100 a month from that property which is getting re-invested. Now my question is, how can you afford to buy another property when you can't do the 20% down again? I can see how this would be super easy if you had a bunch of other properties already, but when you're putting money into your 401k and aren't getting another 20, 30, or 40 grand in a year (or even 5, 10?) to put down another down payment, how do you keep purchasing these properties? Also, if you're taking out a bunch of loans, how are you able to make money when you're always paying others off with interest (especially if you already have your own house with bills and a mortgage)?

Some advice on others who have been there and have been able to overcome that would be incredibly helpful! I want to do this so badly, but the conversation revolving around money and who's paying for what is something that's really important for me before I can start the process. 

Thanks in advance :)

Edit: In case it matters, I'd be focusing on properties in Minnesota, ideally in the Twin Cities area for buy & hold

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Sean BlomquistPro Member
Lender · Blaine, MN · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 131 votes
9y

@Kelly Conrad there are ways to buy rental property without having to put 20-25% down.  Contact me directly and I can give you more info about it.  @Kim Burke and I teach a class on this very subject, so I can give you the details about that as well.

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  • Sean BlomquistPro Member
    Lender · Blaine, MN · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 131 votes
    9y

    @Kelly Conrad there are ways to buy rental property without having to put 20-25% down.  Contact me directly and I can give you more info about it.  @Kim Burke and I teach a class on this very subject, so I can give you the details about that as well.

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2012 · 187 posts · 117 votes
    9y

    @Kelly Conrad Use the BRRRR strategy. If you buy a property that is distressed (REO, short sale, redemption, etc) or in bad or dated condition, you should be able to increase the value of the property by cleaning it up, paint, carpet, and other repairs. Matching modern appliances, updated light fixtures, countertops, etc.. Ideally you are buying low enough such that you can force the appreciation without spending too much in rehab.

    If you do that, in 6 to 12 months you can often refinance, and if the market is still strong it will have appreciated 3-5% in addition to moving it up to the median value for comparable properties.   When you first bought you had a low appraisal due to the condition.    When you refi you end up getting a median appraisal and you can cash out $25K or more that you can use to buy your second deal.  

    Your new loan will cost you an extra $100-$150 per month so hopefully you are getting more than $100 / door when you start off!!  Personally I look for $300 / door to start.   

    This does not work in a declining market or if the long term interest rates jump a lot.

    After I bought my first one it took me 3 years to refi and buy my second property so its slow at first.   Then after I bought my second, it took me 1 year to refi cash out.   Now, I just bought #3 and #4 and I hope I can refi #3 in 6-12 months to do it again.

  • Guy with Great Hair · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    first, save money like it's scorched earth

    second, use the BRRRR method when possible. last house I bought for 55k, it appraised for 115k, I pulled cash out (plus the money I was stacking away in the meantime) to buy another house for 68k all-in. It appraises at 105k. Do a cash out refi and combine it with the money I'm saving from other sources.

    it goes slowly in the beginning for sure. You don't have to have a high paying job to save money each month either, if you don't make a ton of money at your regular job you just have to decide to live frugal AF and focus on what's most important. (aka drive a dirty junker car but pay cash for houses)

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @Marc Jolicoeur Interesting, I've been seeing that mentioned a lot but didn't really put 1+1 together on that being a good way to start so you can get funds for other properties! Are you focused on SFR or Multi-family in the Twin Cities? I was looking around on RedFin (I know, I haven't gotten a realtor involved to get access to MLS yet just because I want to have a solid plan before reaching out to them) and within the Twin Cities for residential there aren't many cheap multi-family properties! They're all in the high 100's or mid 200's from what it looks like.

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @Alexander Felice Thanks for the response! Looks like others are in agreement on using BRRRR as well. How convenient that today's webinar is also on that topic :)! It looks like you're focusing on SFR, what is your end goal if you don't mind me asking? Are you eventually looking to purchase your own building?

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2016 · 362 posts · 93 votes
    9y

    @Alexander Felice When you buy the distressed property, are you purchasing those with loans or all cash? How do you pay for the rehabs costs? Out of pocket? JV?

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2012 · 187 posts · 117 votes
    9y

    @Kelly Conrad  I am buying townhomes in the $120K range and duplexes at $300K.   

    It has been very tough to find deals that work in the last year but I finally was able to find one of each.   Buy ugly or distressed and you should not have as much competition from those that want something turnkey or owner occupants wanting to house hack.    Almost everything does go to multiple offers lately so you need to be able to have your offer stand out above the others somehow.

  • Guy with Great Hair · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Kelly Conrad:

    @Alexander Felice Thanks for the response! Looks like others are in agreement on using BRRRR as well. How convenient that today's webinar is also on that topic :)! It looks like you're focusing on SFR, what is your end goal if you don't mind me asking? Are you eventually looking to purchase your own building?

    I'll probably buy ~2 more SFR this year. Then wrap them all into a commercial loan and use the cash to buy an apartment building. The end goal is to keep stretching my comfort level :)

  • Guy with Great Hair · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Justin Young:

    @Alexander Felice When you buy the distressed property, are you purchasing those with loans or all cash? How do you pay for the rehabs costs? Out of pocket? JV?

    cash allows you to move quickly, and that is really valuable in competitive markets (which they all are).

    it took me a few years of saving to get the funds to be able to do this. I sold my car, bought a junker for $1500, lived poor as hell, but stacked capital. paid for the last one all cash. The first few I bought as primaries to reduce purchasing costs.

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @Alexander Felice Awesome! That's what I'm looking to eventually do as well, it's nice to see that this has been working well for you to reach that goal! 

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2016 · 362 posts · 93 votes
    9y

    Thanks @Alexander Felice. Sacrifice now so you can live the life you desire later.

  • Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2016 · 970 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    You are where I was 1.5 years ago. I made a spread sheet where I thought I would comfortably buy 1 property a year. Well now I'm at 12. Utilize your friends and family. I even have some random facebook friends I've never met giving me money because they read my posts and see my track record.

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @David Zheng I don't suppose you have a copy of the spreadsheet (with more "general info", not your exact figures and everything!) you used to help others in my position see where to start? That would be incredibly helpful if you could! :)

  • Real Estate Broker · Hugo, MN · Member since 2016 · 688 posts · 596 votes
    9y
    Kelly Conrad you shouldn't have to wait to call your real estate agent, they should be educating you not the other way around. An agent that specializes in investments should know the market, what's available and how they can help you with what you have and then point you in the right direction.
  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    I know, it's just one of those things where I don't want to waste their time until I have a plan and can tell them what I'm thinking. I figured they'd take me more seriously and appreciate that I'm not bugging them until I've decided I'm 100% in

  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    9y
    Kelly Conrad Rome wasn't built in a day. You have to have a good foundation and if you do buy and hold its a slow road. It's like a big truck in low gear. It's slow but once it's moving its unstoppable. Try to go to fast and you might get into trouble. Step one is to get your credit in tip top shape. 720 or better at the same time pay your bills down. By any means necessary except borrowing money. I was a meat cutter for years. An old time butcher told me all meat shops will make money. The trick is you have to plug the holes. What he ment was you have to stop the meat market from wasting money. In other words cut your losses and you will have a profit. This is what you do with your finances. Cut unnecessary spending and stop paying interest on ccards, cars, etc etc. your credit goes up and you pack every penny away. Also I don't put cash flow from rentals in my 401 retirement. Call the company up and ask what your average gain is from the first day you have had it. Likley it's not as good as you can do reinvesting in realestate. I only put the amount in the employer will match. The rest goes to RE. The brrrr strategy is a good one but most people buy with their own cash then use high interest hard money for the rehab. Some added risk here. In theory if you buy a new property every year after some period of time you can cash out refinance the first one for enough to buy a new one. If the market keeps going up you can buy one a year from refinancing the ones with equity. Add more cash flow from more properties to what you save from your w-2 job and then you will be buying multiple properties a year. This is a simple analogy and there is a lot I left out to simplify the strategy. I even put a loan on my car (2% interest) then added savings with it to buy a good deal. It was a seller finance. I had it appraised after closing and it appraised 35k higher that what I paid. Wish I had more cars. Oh yeah it cash flows about 300 a month. That's most of my car pmnt. I've had it 14 months. I'd do that every day if I could. RR
  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    Hey @Ralph R., thanks for the post! My husband and I are incredibly lucky that we were involved in the VW diesel scandal and so the payment we got allowed us to pay everything off except the mortgage on our house. Truthfully, since we no longer have any debt except our house, it makes me a little nervous going back into debt since a payoff like that will likely never happen again! 

    I didn't think about cutting back on my 401k, I currently have it at 15% since I like to save money :p I suppose I could lower it way down and put the extra into real estate, I'll talk to my Financial Advisor about this tomorrow!

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 743 posts · 927 votes
    9y

    @Ralph R.

    Just to qualify something you mentioned in your post, no one I know uses high interest hard money to finance renovations. There are other ways to do it. One example is: you can get a construction loan which gives you the purchase price and renovation costs rolled into a 13 month commercial loan with 20-25% down and interest only payments during the renovation stage or up to the full 13 months if you want to save and build some of the cash flow offline for your next purchase. You then convert it and keep it as a commercial 5 or 10 year arm with a 25 year amortization loan or refinance into a conventional 30 year loan with the increase value/equity built into the new equation thus a BRRR.

    @Kelly Conrad

    I'd only put money in a 401K if I was getting a company match.  I wouldn't put anything more since the match portion is free money but excess should be used for your next investment purchase if that is the plan you want to pursue.   I personally cashed all of my 401K's out over a 3 year period to purchase investment properties since the return has been 4-5 times better since I've gotten into real estate.

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @Bruce Runn Thanks for your input. My company does match 3%, so I should only put 3% in and then take the rest and put it aside for purchasing real estate? 

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Our first 13ish were 80/20 mortgages.. We saved money and took loans out. We did the work. Cash flow like crazy... 400 to 700. 

    The next 25 came easy. At least that's what Some people would think.. 

  • Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 743 posts · 927 votes
    9y

    @Kelly Conrad

    I'm not telling you what strategy is best for you, only what do and did to get the money to buy more properties.  If your goal is to buy more properties, why aren't you using that "excess" 12% of your income to build up the cash reserve to buy?  Is seems like you almost answered your own question, right?  You can even borrow against your 401K to fund purchases and you act as your own bank with payments back to the 401K, right?  That's another strategy though I'm definitely not an expert on that and someone else should weigh in on how that is done.

    You have to look at what cash on cash return you can get on investment property to insure you can get a good enough deal to beat your 401K year in and year out.  I easily beat Wall Street returns because I get great cash flows even with buying properties this year. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    @Bruce Runn Sure thing, I appreciate the good ideas! As long as I'm not losing out on what I would have been saving in my 401k, then I'm all in :) I'll bring this up to my advisor tomorrow and see what plan we can come up with to start getting that money to be available so we can make some purchases!

    I really appreciate your insight, that's incredibly helpful! Thank you!

  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    9y

    @Kelly Conrad  what did your advisor tell you?  RR

  • Real Estate Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2017 · 164 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    Hey @Ralph R.! So this would only apply to me, I'd definitely check with someone who knows your exact situation :)

    Anyways, my advisor said that we can take a loan out of my 401k that I would pay back. He also said I'd want to get my company match, and then everything after that I can save for investing into my properties. He also said that money in my Roth can be used as well, but only the money I put in, I can't pull the interest that account has accumulated. 

    We also have my husband's 401k that we moved after he left his previous job so we can utilize that extra money as well.

    So with all of those funds we have available, we should be able to make some good down payments right away!

  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    9y

    @Kelly Conrad  I thought he might say that. I wasn't looking for myself. Did he explain why you should pay interest to borrow your own money rather than lower your contribution??  I don't advocate withdrawing funds but I don't see how you will gain by continuing to contribute money you want to invest.  You reduce your profit from the rental paying yourself back.  I don't know the interest rates but the money you borrow stops working for you in the 401k too.  It's been discussed here before.  Does you advisor get paid commissions or work for the 401k managers?  They usually tell me when I rebalance every year that I should increase my contribution. Then they get quiet when I tell them my average gain in real estate and ask if they can come close to it in some way. They also get paid from the fees on the 401.  There's a recent blog on BP on how effective 401ks are. You will need to search it up I can't recall the author or tittle it was in the weekly e mail from Allison.  I'm not saying stocks are bad but 401's don't as a rule perform that well.   RR

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