Advice for finding great subs and buying "scary" properties

Advice for finding great subs and buying "scary" properties

Real Estate Broker · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 749 posts · 399 votes

Hey guys, I decided to post some tips I have picked up from flipping full time in Kansas City, Missouri. If anyone else has great tips please share them also below.

1. Finding great subcontractors. This is really tough when you are starting out and I get asked this question a lot at my local MAREI. Here are a few things to look for by trade:

Electricians and plumbers: They should be a master tradesman and willing to pull permits. I have found the sweet spot are businesses that have been around 5 to 15 years and are owned and run by two to four master tradesmen. Additionally, these companies don't have fancy uniforms, huge logo plastered trucks, or a brick and mortar building. Typically they have embroidered polos, a truck with their logo on it but maybe only one or two of these vehicles that are personally owned not owned by the company, and they have a small office where one person coordinates everything. These guys are who you want to call. Their prices are low but their quality of work is the same as the big guys but for a fraction of the cost.

How do you find them? Call around. Ask other local investors.  If you know of a large plumbing or electrical wholesaler/warehouse that sells direct - go ask them who is the best.  

*Please don't skimp and try to get a handyman to do the work that a master tradesman should do to save a buck. If you need a permit for work - have it done right. Reputation is everything in this business.

HVAC - if a HVAC company is putting up billboards and/or has radio/tv commercials spots - don't call them! (I repeat, DONT CALL THEM! How do you think they afford all that advertising?) A good price in KCMO for a 2.5-ton unit furnace, coil, and condenser installed is 3k.  If you call the "big boys" they will charge 6 to 8k for the same units installed. Same as above - looker for smaller companies that have a proven track record and love working with investors. Other local investors will point you in the right direction. 

*Please research HVAC units. We all know the big name brands but do you know those same companies produce less known brands? (think buying generic soda that is really Pepsi but packaged as some local variety for half the cost) You can get phenomenal units for literally thousands less simply because a different nameplate is put on the unit. Finally...BUY AMERICAN!

Roofers - ask around but before you hire anyone ensure the roofers are licensed, bonded, and most importantly PROPERLY insured! Find out what flashing they are using, what shingles they are using, how much they are charging a square, are they removing the old roof for you? If so, how much?  Finally, don't use anyone who will roof on a second or third set of shingles on your home. I won't get into a fight on here - bottom line that voids the warranty on your sheeting and shingles. Plus it is improper and puts unnecessary weight on your roof.  A good roof should cost you 3 to 5k installed based on the size, pitch, and how much plywood/OSB needs to be replaced.(please don't use OSB) 

Foundation Repair - this is hands down the biggest scam trade I have seen.  Not all foundation repair people are like this, many are honest. But I can't tell you how many times I have had someone present a quote from a big local company and their cost is 20k or more when in reality the repair cost was $1500 to $2000. (this is not an exaggeration) The best way to avoid getting conned, if you don't know foundation repair, is to call a structural engineer. You will pay about $450 for the engineer to come out and then another $250 to $500 for their report. However, they will have good recommendations of who to use to do the repairs, they have nothing to gain by padding how much work needs to be done, and the best bonus is - the foundation repair company has to follow the scope of work the engineer outlines. (additional bonus - with said engineer report in hand you can legally have a permit pulled for the foundation work) Again, find a good, long-term, probably family owned foundation company and call them. They should be smaller but with a great reputation. Skip the big guys.

2. Pursue the scary properties. Guys I just got a short sale under contract that was listed for 100k, ARV is 160k. I walked the property and the house is in great shape. It needs about 10k in paint, tiling, and some minor upgrades. It will be a perfect rental. However, no one wanted this property because a big name foundation repair company came out and quoted 25k in repairs to fix the chimney and foundation. I am no expert on foundations but I know just enough to get myself in trouble. I took one look at the chimney and foundation and laughed. I immediately drew up a contract. It was accepted and during the inspection period, I had a structural engineer view the property. Following that I had the foundation guy view the property with said engineer report in hand. My suspicions were correct and the total amount to repair the foundation will be $1300. The point here is - don't get scared off by the horror houses. The hoarders, the mold, foundation issues, smells of cat pee, etc... all of these problems are fairly simple to fix. Yes, you have to budget for them. Call a bunch of tradesmen and get quotes. When we first started I scheduled eight, yes eight, foundation estimates in one day. I learned a ton of about foundation repair simply by asking open-ended questions, and I quickly figured out what was a fair price to pay for the repair. You can do the same. Again, don't be scared off. Numerous homebuyers saw the aforementioned property before me and all of them passed on it simply because the showing description said the property was in need of "major foundation repair."

3. If you are going to flip - make sure you stage! Don't believe me? Check this out:

https://www.nar.realtor/research-and-statistics/re...

Yeah...I like earning 2 to 5% more and selling my house weeks faster also....  ;-)

Hope this helps guys. Go out there and get your first deal. Start building generational wealth and obtaining financial freedom. Best of luck to you in your endeavors!

Cheers,

Dan

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Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 11 votes
8y
Great info @Dan Krupa, thanks for passing it along. @Devin Wilkins & @Andrew Oberlin, check it out.
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  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 11 votes
    8y
    Great info @Dan Krupa, thanks for passing it along. @Devin Wilkins & @Andrew Oberlin, check it out.
  • Investor · Smithville, MO · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 13 votes
    8y

    @Dan Krupa I appreciated how you are always willing to give back to the 'community'......good information!

  • Real Estate Investor · Liberty, MO · Member since 2016 · 65 posts · 24 votes
    8y

    Love it Dan!  Spot on!

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 2 votes
    8y

    @Dan Krupa  good stuff. 

    I'd like to share my experience in finding subcontractors using your method of going to suppliers and asking them for recommendations. When I was working for a large  snow removal company and managing a large territory, I too was in search of good, qualified and cost effective subcontractors. I drove to 7 liscenced snow plow dealerships asking for recommendations. At stop 7 I gave up completey. Not one supplier would give me a referral for various reasons. The common theme was they "don't get involved" in that sort of thing. Now, before I move on to what I did next in hopes that my approach can also help someone who ran into this I will say this this.... In no way am I objecting to this method, I actually like it a lot in that it can help you find subcontractors that are buying and doing business with other reputable businesses. Every market, every trade and every job is different. This method simply just didn't work for me. 

    What I did next was simple, I used the Internet, specifically Angie's list. 

    1. I reached out to every snow removal contractor in the area with only 1 initial criterion, they needed to have an email address. This way I could quickly reach a large number of contractors. I reached out to just over 70 subcontractors with a generic email. 

    2. I waited for them to respond to me. This cut the list down to about 20 subcontractors who were serious. This is the first step in finding a subcontractor that wants YOUR business, after all you are the one cutting the check. 

    3. I set up a quick phone call, it lasted no longer than 10 minutes and typically was something I could do on the road while driving. The list was at about 20 at this point

    4. I sent the subcontractor a pre-qualification packet with my companies standard policies and requested basic information about their insurance, workers comp, etc. I also made sure to get some info on their operation. For example, how many crews do they run? When looking for a subcontractor that provided services heavy on equipment I asked how many trucks, plows, loaders and snow blowers they had. From my list of 20 I received 5 packets filled out. 

    5. I then went to them. Yes, no coffee, no coming to my office, I went to their place of business. From there you can gauge how they work, verify they have the equipment and man power to perform the job. 

    6. All 5 contractors worked out great and my former company still uses them to date. One thing to keep in mind as you are having these conversations is to always keep the conversation of price going. If you have a particular job, have them quote it but if it's too high and you decide not to use them, don't give up. KEEP BUILDING THE RELATIONSHIP, they might lose a big contract one day and need to male up the revenue quickly, they might go into growth mode and lower their margins, etc, etc. 

    Dan, I do have a question about hiring and paying subcontractors as my experience comes from a large scale. Myself and my 3 partners are fairly new to real estate investing but have made some very strong traction and are starting what we believe will be a strong endeavor. Have you run into issues with smaller contractors and the legalities of paying them, proof of insurance, etc? Once you have agreed upon a scope of services and a price for those services, what is your Process like? What are your typical terms with a subcontractors?

  • Real Estate Broker · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 749 posts · 399 votes
    8y

    @Calvin Douglass @Trista Fenner and @Matt Henshaw - thank you.

    @Andrew Oberlin - glad to hear your system works. I personally don't think angie's list is all that great for investors. It is geared more towards residential consumers. While I think that is a great place to find landscapers, snow removal personnel, etc... I don't think it is the best place to find investor friendly tradesmen.

    For me - a siding warehouse provided us with phenomenal installer recommendations but again that worked for us. These techniques don't work for every profession, in every location. The best way, hands down, to find great tradesmen is to get recommendations from other investors. Especially ones that are doing 10+ transactions/flips a year.  

    Andrew - your question about paying is a huge "it depends." I refuse to pay labor up front unless it is a very small nominal fee and the tradesmen are extremely busy. That fee "locks" you in per se, so you don't cancel last minute on them when they could be doing another job.  Even small companies, that are legit, will easily provide you evidence that they are properly licensed, insured, and will fill out a W9. Anyone that can't meet those requirements shouldn't be hired.

    Some tradesmen don't want or need anything up front. My master electrician wants nothing, to include material until the work passes inspection. The roofer only wants material paid for up front. My garage door installer will only ask for material up front if the doors are special order and can't be returned. The HVAC installer doesn't want anything up front. Etc... So again, it depends. The biggest thing is to build trust with these guys.  Treat them right, build a relationship.  I always pay immediately after we pass inspection. Etc... Once they know you will pay every time promptly, that you know exactly what you want, and you don't try to get free work out of them - they will go above and beyond for you. (Examples: working you into their busy schedule, working on a Saturday for you, providing references to other excellent tradesmen, etc...) 

    Hope this helps. 

  • Woodside, NY · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    hi everyone...i am back....yes after a while..Question. i am (hopefully) at the last step in selling my TAX deed property. (bought it at a county auction). i got my title & the buyer who is ready to do the closing got a msg from his insurance co. sating that they DO NOT insure tax deed properties nor close on it. the guy made a deposit and we don't know what to do. My property is in Daytona.

    ANYBODY KNOW OF AN INSURANCE company for these kind of property to insure??

    Your reply is HIGHLY appreciated!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 11 votes
    8y

    @Andrew Oberlin, thanks for the perspective. It's great to hear about the varied experiences of investors active on BP.

    @Dan Krupa, great response to Andrew's comments. Lot's to be learned here.

    -Cal

  • Real Estate Broker · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2017 · 147 posts · 106 votes
    8y

    Great advice @Dan Krupa!

  • Real Estate Agent · Ava, MO · Member since 2022 · 31 posts · 45 votes
    4y

    Dan, I really appreciate this post and feel a lot more confident after reading it. My husband and I want to buy a house that is a REAL fixer-upper. I am concerned about the foundation, which is clearly sunken on one side of the house. Here is another crazy caveat: the basement is completely flooded to the staircase, making it impossible to fully assess the foundation. My husband is very unsure of investing in this house, but I have talked to people and flooded "wet basements" is fairly common and not the end of the world. I had never heard of a wet basement until moving to Missouri. Any advice on a flooded wet basement? In my optimistic mind, I am thinking this may not be more than pumping out the water, fixing the floor drains, dehumidifying and painting...am I way off on this one?  

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