Frustrate with contractors

Frustrate with contractors

Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 39 votes

One of the biggest obstacle in this field has to be the lack of professionalism and work ethics from contractors. I feel that we constantly have to baby sit them and tell them how to do their job the right way, and once you pay them you will never see them again and there is no way to hold them accountable for mistakes or poor workmenship.

The other frustration that I have,  has to be dealing with the real estate brokers many but not everyone are very shady. They have to follow special ethical guide lines but they seldom do. Many times you sit back and wonder, is this really worth the headaches?  Let me know your frustrations and how are you dealing to manage with these obstacle's.

Don't get me wrong it is rewarding to transform a house or real estate property into something beautiful and sale it. But it has to be a better way to minimize issues with contractors and hold them accountable as well as dealing with real estate agents that are out there to Rip you off. Im in NJ and NY.  

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Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
8y

I would take my day job 10 out of 10 times over managing residents and contractors.  Get scale or unfortunately get used to it.

With scale, you have leverage...or you have others managing it.  And with more scale (say at an apartment community level), you get professional vendors rather than contractors and on site maintenance.  The word "efficiency" does not do justice to the difference this makes.

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  • Contractor · Canton, GA · Member since 2015 · 107 posts · 81 votes
    8y

    If you are using a Gc, be sure he has a good past background with other clients. Make sure they give you an adequate and thorough scope of work before they begin. Spend the time with the Gc to set the lines and time for communications. They should typically check in ( at least )on the job at the beginning and end of the day. Once they know your expectations, hopefully, you won’t have to micromanage. 

  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    8y

    Good contractors aren't cheap and cheap contractors aren't good. The guys who are professionals and reliable charge a premium because they're so rare. Probably 90% of contractors are either ok or crap. The good ones that people want to work on their properties are all booked for months at their higher rates, so even if you had enough room to make the numbers work, the timeline doesn't. You're looking for a needle in a haystack and if you find one that is reliable, professional and fits into your budget, lock them down and do everything you can to keep them happy.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y

    I would take my day job 10 out of 10 times over managing residents and contractors.  Get scale or unfortunately get used to it.

    With scale, you have leverage...or you have others managing it.  And with more scale (say at an apartment community level), you get professional vendors rather than contractors and on site maintenance.  The word "efficiency" does not do justice to the difference this makes.

  • Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 349 posts · 418 votes
    8y

    Cheap contractors are really the most expensive in disguise.

    My experience with both contractors and realtors, you do not have the 80/20 principle. You have more like a 95/5 principle - 5% outperform the other 95% combined.

  • Investor · Carthage, NC · Member since 2016 · 39 posts · 12 votes
    8y

    I've had an online portfolio of my work for 14 years. I've never understood why every GC or sub doesn't have an extensive online portfolio.

  • Holon, Israel · Member since 2018 · 86 posts · 14 votes
    8y

    So the 1,000,000 $ question is how do one find those great real estate brokers and contractors ? Fellow investor ? Yellow pages ? BP ?

    And how do you verify their track records.

  • Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 39 votes
    8y

    we need a way to verify contractors and realtors.

  • Contractor · Canton, GA · Member since 2015 · 107 posts · 81 votes
    8y

    It’s amazing. How much Real Estate Investors verify properties and Lenders ,  but contractors and trades are not given the proper screening and deserving due diligence. 

    My Remodeling company is small but diverse. We work on A+ to B- homes, between my partner and myself. Our prices are within range for an urban market but we work in a 50 mile diameter between the 2 of us. . I , too , am constantly looking for new trades and suffer like Investors. 

    Here Some other ideas: 

    1) Goto a  personal or upscale hardware store , in your area and see who is coming in between 7:00 and 8:00 am.  Also, talk to the sales clerks to see if they can assist you with a contractor. I’m sure they would love for you to spend time and money in their stores. 

    2) When you find a trade contractor,  ask if they do electronic payment ,and what is their email. This usually will indicate if  they run a business or a job. 

    3) If you are going to be  Renovating , don’t be afraid to call an interior designer ,especially , if you are upscaling. The small details they can bring as well as contractors they have used could be the proper push for a better sell. 

    4) Remember , good contractors are in the field working, not building portfolios, or websites. If they are good ,they don’t need too. If they do have an advance website, you could  probably pay them more to work for another client. 

    Like Real Estate investing , contractors will typically need , either , management time from you or they will bring it with them for a little more money. 

    Don’t know if this helps?

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y

    @David T coello  Sounds like you hired employees , not professional contractors . If you have to babysit them of once they get money they dont show up ,you didnt hire a company , you got laborers . 

    When you hire a professional contractor you get professional results , but you also pay professional prices . 

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @David T coello You may want to check around with a few fellow real estate investors for contractor referrals for future projects. Start interviewing people. Find people whose personality works with yours. If you decide to hire someone, start them on a small project before a big one. If they do good work, then give them more projects. But start out small. Hope that helps. Good luck! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Clarksville, TN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Big deposit requests are big red flags. Even home depot pro accounts will finance a project interest free for 60 days. A contractor without the credit or capacity to get to their first milestone payment without assistance from you might be a problem child.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @David T coello:

    One of the biggest obstacle in this field has to be the lack of professionalism and work ethics from contractors. I feel that we constantly have to baby sit them and tell them how to do their job the right way, and once you pay them you will never see them again and there is no way to hold them accountable for mistakes or poor workmenship.

    The other frustration that I have,  has to be dealing with the real estate brokers many but not everyone are very shady. They have to follow special ethical guide lines but they seldom do. Many times you sit back and wonder, is this really worth the headaches?  Let me know your frustrations and how are you dealing to manage with these obstacle's.

    Don't get me wrong it is rewarding to transform a house or real estate property into something beautiful and sale it. But it has to be a better way to minimize issues with contractors and hold them accountable as well as dealing with real estate agents that are out there to Rip you off. Im in NJ and NY.  

    I feel your pain. It's largely because those two jobs (realtor and construction) are generally very low barrier to entry professions. I've had some interesting experiences with both, and change them like underwear when they are not meeting my standards. Merely unlocking a door for me is not enough to be a realtor. Often I find I know more than most realtors. Many even tell me it's obvious all I need them for is to unlock the door. Yep...

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    8y

    Contractors are the worst.  Don't hire friends.  Don't hire neighbors.  Don't ask for recommendations on FB.  I could keep going here, having learned the hard way.

    I thought about what I was looking for, and decided they should at least have some form of insurance coverage.  So I went to my buddy that is an insurance agent, and ask for referrals.  That is how I got my roofer/exterior contractor, and his guys ended up doing a lot of work inside on my project, as well. 

    The best way is just to find some other rehabbers in your area and go visit their jobs.

    Managing contractors is just not my forte, I have decided and from here on out I will be getting help with this.

  • Will GastonPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @David T coello the first thing that I'd do is lower your expectations. Not on the quality of work that should be done, stay firm on that. But on the communication levels and the professionalism in the construction field. It's just riddled with people that don't do what they say they're going to do.

    There are lots of great contractors out there and I work with several in my market. However, in my experience they still disappoint me from time to time.

    My theory is that the ones that have the skill set that makes them great at detail oriented work (i.e. framing, tile, trim, etc) rarely have the additional and completely different skill set of business skills (i.e. communication, scheduling, and money management). 

    The ones that I know that have both construction and business skill sets are very wealthy and I could never afford to use as an investor.

  • Investor · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2016 · 75 posts · 35 votes
    8y

    they are mostly shady and lazy- I’ve spent a CAREER cleaning up after other contractors(and homeowners!!)

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Todd Rasmussen:

    Big deposit requests are big red flags. Even home depot pro accounts will finance a project interest free for 60 days. A contractor without the credit or capacity to get to their first milestone payment without assistance from you might be a problem child.

    From a contractor when a customer doesnt want to pay a deposit , this is a BIG red flag . First it tells me they dont have money , Second I have plenty of credit at the supply houses . BUT   I do not finance a customers job . A deposit gets you on the schedule . Three draws 1/3 down 1/3 during the job and the final third upon completion , extras are paid as they occur . We are always working off the customers money , the minute the cash stops flowing , so does the work . 

    Why would a contractor risk paying for materials and his employees and may not get paid . That is not smart business on the contracting company's part .

  • Rental Property Investor · Clarksville, TN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Matthew Paul

    I'm a contractor too and an appropriate deposit is fine but that is way less than 33%. Also, my post is written with a large project in mind, which might be our disconnect in deposit theory.

    If you have sufficient credit at the supply houses; you are not a cash on delivery customer and probably get invoiced net 30 days after receiving an order. (without paying interest) Ergo, you are not financing the customers job anyways.

    I'll give deposits on almost everything, but for 33% it'd have to be a pretty small project to warrant it. It just doesn't cost that much to show up for the first day. You can break up the progress payments small enough to solve almost any cash flow issue for the contractor (I pay my drywall crew daily) but until the material is on the property and/or installation is occurring, there isn't a need to pay premature invoices let alone writing a 33% check weeks before a job starts.

    There are too many contractors that start asking for big deposits at the end of the month for me to feel comfortable prepaying for services in large amounts. Granted the state of CA is a little overbearing, but it's illegal to charge more than $1,000 as a deposit out here anyways. (Although most contractors aren't even aware of that law).

    I think the only power the customer has in the payment schedule. The contractor gets to stop work and lien the property. The customer's only recourse after the money has been paid is to leave voicemails.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y

    @Todd Rasmussen  I am in Maryland and 33% is what the law allows and is pretty standard here . 

    I dont buy or special order any materials for a customers job unless I have their money to pay for it . Been burned in the past by customers " waiting for their next draw" . 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

    @Todd Rasmussen  I am in Maryland and 33% is what the law allows and is pretty standard here . 

    I dont buy or special order any materials for a customers job unless I have their money to pay for it . Been burned in the past by customers " waiting for their next draw" . 

     I wasnt aware that was the law...but yeah with contractors I dont have a relationship with 33% is what I typically pay up front.  With contractors I use often, I usually pay them at the end of the job unless it something that has a big cash outlay for the contractor, like a kitchen, in which case I usually pay 50% up front and 50% at the end of the job.  Ive never had an issue though with the guys I do repeat business with, but thats probably because Im using quality guys and not getting some day laborer. 

  • Specialist · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 900 posts · 392 votes
    8y

    Don't give more than 25% upfront to start, try to give 10-20%, then pay them in chunks when they finish the job, holding out the last 1/4 for after you or your realtor inspects the work. Good ones will start with low down and if they want 1/2 or more to start, go find another one. We just finished our 4th out of town note/foreclose/fix/flip & we find our seperate contractors on thumbtack.com, or home advisor, or craigsist if needed. Don't let one person do it all, it just leads to misery, get the 5 different main contractors, and a good GC to manage them and do the painting, cabinets, trim, etc. 

  • Contractor · Oxford, MA · Member since 2018 · 807 posts · 745 votes
    8y

    In MA I believe it is 1/3 also or whatever the cost of special order materials is, whichever is higher but not both. If I am doing a $200k addition though I am not charging $70k/$70k/$60k. I write my draws so I get a check every week at least and my subs are paid the day the job is done or the permit is signed. 

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y

    Every contractor will do it different , I stay away from the long jobs . Most of mine are $35K and below . I always get the 1/3 down . Getting a deposit also stops a customer from backing out , once the contract is signed I schedule a slot , order materials , get permits . A lot of this is done 3 or 4 weeks before I start the job .  The behind the scenes work starts way before a nail is driven .

  • Contractor · Washington, DC · Member since 2018 · 55 posts · 43 votes
    8y

    @David T coello Definitely some good responses in here regarding payment and contractor vetting. As someone who works in commercial construction as a GC, my perspective is a little different, just because the game is played a lot differently in a larger scale. There is no doubt about it that there are great contractors and absolutely terrible contractors in the residential world. As an investor / owner, it is your responsibility to properly vet and manage your contractors. Just because you hire someone to do a job, doesn't mean you can just sit back and relax on the beach and wait for them to finish. While you may have a project manager (GC) running the construction project, you are running the overall investment and project. In the commercial world, you would be considered the construction manager; you make sure the GC is hitting their schedule, getting compensated adequately for the work completed and ongoing, and making sure that the quality of work is where it needs to be. If you aren't prepared to take on this role, then you can always hire a construction manager (this is what most owners do in large scale construction or they have someone in house that does this for them). Managing your own expectations of how the process works is very important here. It is important to understand you have a role in the process and that just because you hire a GC to run the construction, doesn't mean your part is done.  

    Some good management / best practice tips:

    1. Have a well written contract with the GC 

    - Make sure the scope of work is clearly defined

    - Include the construction schedule and clearly define the required completion date and any project milestones (i.e. all framing completed by DD/MM, walls and ceilings inspected and closed in by DD/MM, construction completed by DD/MM, etc.)

    - Include or discuss liquidated damages associated with not hitting project milestones or the completion date (i.e. "project to be completed on DD/MM, failure to meet the required completion date results in liquidated damages of $500/day following a 3 day grace period after the aforementioned specified construction completion date"

    - Make sure the project's cost is clearly defined and any contingencies or allowances are noted (i.e. the project value is not to exceed the $135,000.00 budget laid out by the contractor with an owner allowance of 10,000 for unforeseen conditions). Include language regarding any additional costs ( All additional costs to be submitted to the owner for review prior to proceeding). 

    - Clearly define payment procedures - As some of the folks before me have said, some projects could be 1/3 at the start, 1/3 halfway through and 1/3 at the end or you could pay the entire project at the end. It all varies so make sure to discuss with your contractor and clearly define this in writing. 

    - Permitting fees and inspection costs. Make sure it is clearly defined who is paying and obtaining all of these. If you are covering the permitting costs and getting the permit or if the contractor is providing a price to apply and obtain the permit, make it clearly defined. 

    - You can google construction contracts and find a lot of good examples to help you with verbiage needed to ensure you are protected and the project is run properly. You are a professional and this is your business, run it as such. Make sure you have good contracts and procedures in place to protect yourself and your project. 

    2.  Make your contractor submit you weekly or monthly progress reports. Review their reports and pay close attention to make sure your project is progressing properly. 

    3. When hiring a contractor for a project, get at least (3) bids. This will allow you to really understand the total cost of the project, some contractors may be high, some may be low, but this will allow you to find the middle ground and really understand if someone is low balling you to get the job or if someone is high balling you and taking advantage of your lack of knowledge in construction. Have the contractor break the bid out (never accept a lump sum price for a project) into the different aspects of the job (i.e. paint = $2,000, drywall = $5,750, etc.). Check all three bids and compare them to each other to make sure they all priced the same scope, have all the required components and double check that there aren't any exclusions noted. It's easy for contractors to make a fine print note saying they have excluded some aspect of the project and then you have no ground to stand on when they tell you it will cost extra to have it done. 

    4. Check in frequently and make sure your project is being well managed before you step back and let the contractor run with the project. Many investors / owners will check in 2-3 times each week until they are confident the contractor has everything under control. 

    5. Get the contractor's licenses (driver's and contractor's licenses) and keep a scanned copy on file. This will ensure you are working with the person they are saying they are, and that they have the proper credentials to be doing the work. 

    As far as finding good contractors, word of mouth is always a great way to find out about good contractors; people who have a good experience (or bad) will always be willing to tell you about it. Ask your friends, family, or if you are confident enough, swing by a local jobsite and get familiar with the GC or reach out to the owner and ask about the GC on the job. I strongly recommend staying away from hiring anyone on craigslist, but that is my personal preference. Angie's list is a good place to look for contractors, and they have reviews and ratings for each business. 

    Once you have a couple GC's in mind, ask for references (minimum of 3) and past projects (maybe even ask for tours of previous work if the other owners are willing). Review their work and call all their references; make sure to ask each person about their experience, if their needs were met, how the contractor responded if changes or additional work was required, etc. Really do your homework to make sure you are dealing with a good contractor. 

    Lastly, as others have said, keep in mind that you get what you pay for. If you go with the lowest bidder to cut some project costs, you very well may end up with tons of cost on the back-end fixing low quality or incomplete work and craftsmanship. But be weary: just because you choose the highest bidder there is no guarantee for your project to go perfectly and have the best quality. Do your homework on the contractor, get multiple bids, be active on the project, and communicate clearly and effectively. If you can do all this, then you have the highest chance for a successful project. 

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y

    @Kyle Jiron  I agree with 95% of what you said . But the liquidated damages for milestones and completion dates . It goes both ways , customer indecision when there is a problem or a change order , they may cost the contractor a couple days making up their mind . We charge for delays to us caused by the customer that cost us time . I have found over time the job goes over due to the customer changing their mind . 

    Having a specific allowance for unforeseen conditions  is great . Until one of those conditions blows the budget . Like a couple years ago when we were building  an addition and found contaminated soil and an abandoned oil tank .  That kinda blew the whole job . The clean up costs were 2/3rds of the budget for the entire job . ( I felt sorry for the guy )  The addition was never built .

    The one thing you forgot , a good contractor will properly vett a customer and also ask for a drivers licence , check to make sure he is the legal owner of the property , check for judgements and liens , and how many lawsuits the customer has been involved in . 

  • Contractor · Washington, DC · Member since 2018 · 55 posts · 43 votes
    8y

    @Matthew Paul Good catch! Having clauses in the contract related to changes directed by the owner are a must! In commercial, this is in every single contract we do, otherwise we run the other direction. Anytime an owner directs a change in the project, the contractor is entitled to the money and time (this is really only applicable if the change affects the over all completion date of the schedule) associated with the change in direction. Of course, there is a process for changes, which should also be laid out in your contracts. If the owner would like to make a change, then receive their direction, evaluate the cost and time impacts, and review with your owner and await final direction. It's definitely important for both sides to understand this process and communicate effectively. 

    That is very sad to hear for that customer, sometimes you just cant get a break. When I was referring to allowances, I was speaking more for parts of construction that you could just never know until you really start cracking open walls or removing finishes (mainly for the younger guys who just don't understand yet). For example, carrying an owner's allowance to replace some percentage (or all) of the sub floor or sub roof when doing a replacement, because you just never know what the condition will actually be until you unveil it. This way you have an established pot of money to pull from if you reveal something unexpected, and if you don't need it, the owner hangs on to it for something else. 

    And another great point for the contractors out there! Knowing your customer well is also very important, and could save you tons of headaches. Just as there are shady contractors, there will be shady "owners / investors". Another fantastic reason for everyone to be doing their homework.  

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