Turn Key. Why all the hate?

Turn Key. Why all the hate?

Bukka LevyPro Member
Real Estate Agent · Petaluma, CA · Member since 2017 · 63 posts · 35 votes

 Not my first post about buying out of state but I am perplexed. Why all the hate towards “turn key”? To be more direct, if it meets the bigger pockets guidelines/numbers, what’s the problem?

And if you can resist, this is not really pointed toward the turn key industry so try to restrain yourselves and enjoy the comments :)

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Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y

Not sure what you mean by 'not pointed toward the turnkey industry'... if I'm supposed to or not supposed to answer a certain way.

Jay hit the main reasons people knock turnkeys. Another factor to consider is that most turnkey buyers I know that like their turnkeys and like the strategy aren't on BP once they start buying. Once you buy a turnkey once, it's really straightforward and if you're happy with the strategy as being your primary strategy, no real need to be on BP anymore. Which primarily just leaves the haters to talk about turnkeys. So the 'pro turnkey' folks aren't here to stick up for them.

I think the biggest issue people have with them is the inability to force appreciation. Which, yes, that's a thing. Other people argue you should never invest outside your own backyard. Well props to those people who have a backyard that it makes sense investing in (vs. us LA or NYC or CA folks). 

I will say that I think it's strange how rowdy people get against turnkeys. I've never heard a turnkey investor knock anyone else's strategy. Who cares what other people do? 

And like Jay said too, Morris Invest didn't help anything. But I started buying turnkeys in 2011 and I totally dig them. Wouldn't do an out-of-state any other way.

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  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Id love to see more threads where people who bought turnkey 2-3 years ago post a summary of how their investment has done, if the rehab held up, what lessons learned, would they do it again etc

  • Investor · Tarzana CA and Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 326 posts · 130 votes
    7y
    I would love to see these deals, if you come across a 10cap that has an 18-20% COC send it to me please


    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Cody L. you can definitely find 10% COC all day, I'm trying to say that that is way too low. Especially on a small deal. A lot of buyers have very low standards for qualifying property, and it's a problem. It's how people get burned. I recommend investors seek out a 10 cap using a REALISTIC pro forma. That usually comes out to a 18%-20% cash on cash return with good financing terms. Lower could work, like with your houston house, but I would only recommend that if someone feels very confident that incidental expenses with the property (vacancy, maintenance, etc...) are going to fall in line with your pro-forma estimates.

    Another thing that scares me about lower yields, esp in major markets, is that we're at a peak. Major markets tend to see depreciation and weaker rental demand during low economic cycles. It's nice to have a buffer for that built into your cash flow.


    The point I'm really trying to drive home is it's on the buyer to make sure they're making a good investment, and not to assume or trust that a provider or seller of any sort adheres to high ethical standards (they should, but it shouldn't be assumed).

    Now if you're saying MLS vs TK... That's just a matter of do you want the additional service a provider offers or do you want to do it yourself, which is more of a preference thing than a performance thing so I don't think it speaks to the

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Alex J.:
    I would love to see these deals, if you come across a 10cap that has an 18-20% COC send it to me please


    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Cody L. you can definitely find 10% COC all day, I'm trying to say that that is way too low. Especially on a small deal. A lot of buyers have very low standards for qualifying property, and it's a problem. It's how people get burned. I recommend investors seek out a 10 cap using a REALISTIC pro forma. That usually comes out to a 18%-20% cash on cash return with good financing terms. Lower could work, like with your houston house, but I would only recommend that if someone feels very confident that incidental expenses with the property (vacancy, maintenance, etc...) are going to fall in line with your pro-forma estimates.

    Another thing that scares me about lower yields, esp in major markets, is that we're at a peak. Major markets tend to see depreciation and weaker rental demand during low economic cycles. It's nice to have a buffer for that built into your cash flow.


    The point I'm really trying to drive home is it's on the buyer to make sure they're making a good investment, and not to assume or trust that a provider or seller of any sort adheres to high ethical standards (they should, but it shouldn't be assumed).

    Now if you're saying MLS vs TK... That's just a matter of do you want the additional service a provider offers or do you want to do it yourself, which is more of a preference thing than a performance thing so I don't think it speaks to the

    I'm a multifamily buyer. I don't go out looking for single family homes to buy. I just happen to have a search setup so any new 77006 (Montrose) listings come to me. If they seem reasonable I snatch them up. The last multi like tha I bought last year. Was on MLS. I called again that day, made a full as offer with $100k hard. Paid $815k. It appraised for $1.2m. Got a $880k loan so less than $0 of my own $ (later rejected a 1.18 offer)

    This is all to say deals can be found from time to time on MLS. Just gotta be ready to offer better terms if you want a better price.

  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2019 · 10 posts · 3 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ali Boone:

    Not sure what you mean by 'not pointed toward the turnkey industry'... if I'm supposed to or not supposed to answer a certain way.

    Jay hit the main reasons people knock turnkeys. Another factor to consider is that most turnkey buyers I know that like their turnkeys and like the strategy aren't on BP once they start buying. Once you buy a turnkey once, it's really straightforward and if you're happy with the strategy as being your primary strategy, no real need to be on BP anymore. Which primarily just leaves the haters to talk about turnkeys. So the 'pro turnkey' folks aren't here to stick up for them.

    I think the biggest issue people have with them is the inability to force appreciation. Which, yes, that's a thing. Other people argue you should never invest outside your own backyard. Well props to those people who have a backyard that it makes sense investing in (vs. us LA or NYC or CA folks). 

    I will say that I think it's strange how rowdy people get against turnkeys. I've never heard a turnkey investor knock anyone else's strategy. Who cares what other people do? 

    And like Jay said too, Morris Invest didn't help anything. But I started buying turnkeys in 2011 and I totally dig them. Wouldn't do an out-of-state any other way.

     Ali, do you still currently purchase turnkeys?

  • Bukka LevyPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Petaluma, CA · Member since 2017 · 63 posts · 35 votes
    7y

    @Greg Carrier Why buy a TK when I could buy a REIT? Because I want a physical property, not a fund.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 919 posts · 911 votes
    7y

    Deleted.

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Sara Cordero:

    Ali, do you still currently purchase turnkeys?

    Not right this second because I bought a property local to me in Venice last year (which goes against everything I normally preach), but I still work with people buying turnkeys.

  • Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2018 · 428 posts · 484 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Jimmy O'Connor:

    @Bukka Levy I have no beef with turn keys, it's all about whatever fits your goals. The reason why there may be some "hate" in the bigger pockets community is because the majority of the users are looking for the "best possible deal" which usually means they want the sweat equity to trade off for the profit. You can 100% go for a turn key and make a profit, just significantly less. It's very unlikely you refinance out of the property since you will probably be close to 100% LTV and most banks will provide 70-80% LTV. This is probably another reason why the BP community may not be keen on Turn Key since many follow the "Bible of BRRR(rrrrr....)" and turn key really hurts your ability to satisfy the "Refinance Repeat" portion

     Real Estate Investment is a game of risk and reward. Turn Key= Little risk, little reward. If you are looking to just pick up properties, not worry about dealing with contractors and permits for repairs (which, honestly, IS a head ache in its own), hold onto them long enough to cash flow, and truly benefit come 30 years of payments at ~5% of a fixed rate then turn key would be a way to go.

     Turn key equals little reward BIG Gargantuan risk.

     Can you please elaborate?

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    I think that it's probably because, while many turnkey companies are good, a number of people have been burned by bad turnkey companies and I think everyone at least knows someone who has.

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