There is always money to be made in RE, don't rush in

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There is always money to be made in RE, don't rush in

Jennifer Lee
Real Estate Broker · Gibsonia, PA · Member since 2013 · 828 posts · 260 votes

Hi BP

I don't know if you agree with me.
But so many post of ppl just wanting to jump right in skipping school.
Afraid they miss the bandwagon or something.
I understand we all wished we started younger.
And I agree we all must start somewhere.

But get your education, stay in school.
you think college can't teach you about real estate?

Look around you, 80% of your classmates are tenants.
You probably signed your first lease,
Wrote your first security deposit check.
Fought with your landlord, or most likely got yelled at by them.

But I digress

If you are on school take a finance, accounting, marketing. Management and entrepreneur classes!

You dont need to be a business major, but it will help you.

Get an engineering degree , law degree. All that will reduce your costs bc u are an expert in the area.

------

I grew up around real estate, lived breathe it. But on the investment side tagging along with my mom.

I became a starving agent for a yr only to earn $100 of rental commission.

Got married, and moved to US, my mom bought us our first home.
Never been to the country, let alone the town. Over a wknd!!!!

Got the best deal hands down in entire bldg(condo)
Dog poop galore ;)
This unit bought me 2 other RE property. Its cash flow is insane, even with 100k assessment. Now we got new bldg. 12 year later.

Rental put me and my 2 sisters into college

Be patient. Get yourself ready. Education, financial, resources and ppl

There is always money to be made in real estate when you BUY RIGHT.

Remember real estate is local!

You have to understand your market.

Interest goes up and down, politics changes, bubble come and go.

But
Ppl will always need a roof over their head.

Ppl will always be getting married and have kids

Their kids will need housing in college, grad school. Residency etc.

Ppl will always get new job, relocation, transfers

And sadly
ppl will be over their heads with debt.
Ppl will be forced to down size
Ppl will be put to homes or die.

And on the other side is commercial.
We are a consumer nation and hopeful entrepreneurs looking for the American dream.

So stay in school, do your due diligence.
find your allies.

And good luck with Real estate investing.
You got to make RE work for you, not you for it.
Remember: Positive cash flow, investment.....not more debt ;)

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Ben Leybovich
Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
13y

I am a classically trained violinist at a top-5 conservatory in states. Columbus symphony has cut pay 4 time in 10 years. Minnesota musicians have been locked out for 6 months. Seattle symphony is getting ready to strike – again! The economics are not there for the arts.

The 501 c 3 non-profit art sector was lobbied for and instituted by the likes of Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Mellon. They had the money to live like the nobility of Europe, but they didn’t want to pay pre-tax for it. Thus was born the nonprofit sector in the arts. Guess what – these guys are dead! People want a $300 pair of shoes but are not willing to spend $50 to listen to Beethoven. The question is not whether we want to be that kind of society – we are that society unfortunately. We’ve been trying to change this trend for years, but the society at large has decided that shoes, clothes, big-screen tv, big house, and a $4 dollar cup of coffee every morning is more important…Sad, but true

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  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    I don’t know that I agree completely with Jennifer Lee I would have agreed 20 years ago, but college has gotten prohibitively too expensive. People are graduating with tons of debt which can be leveraged into $50,000/year of earned income, which after taxes results in $3,000 pay check, if that. $80,000 of debt is just not worth that in my opinion.
    Education is important, but you can’t teach entrepreneurialism. You can’t teach it because it is less about the skills and more about a perspective on life, a spirit – you can’t teach these. Furthermore, a college professor likely is the wrong person to teach this since he/she makes money as an employee. That’s not wrong, but it’s what they know. How can we expect them to teach a life that they themselves do not live…
    Colleges do a wonderful job of producing employees. Those of us who want a different life need to understand that the college experience is about broadening our horizons and not about helping us acquire skills and perspective necessary for entrepreneurial success in my opinion.

    2Reply
  • Jennifer Lee
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Gibsonia, PA · Member since 2013 · 828 posts · 260 votes
    13y

    @Ben you make valid points. I actually have to agree to some extend ;)

    I know my post is about staying in school. But I think I initially meant it to be about not rushing in. Do your due diligence so You Learn To Buy Right.

    0Reply
  • Josh R.
    Wholesaler · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 163 posts · 45 votes
    13y

    Ben Leybovich you know what they say, "those that can...DO and those that can't...TEACH"

    Jennifer Lee I also cannot agree with you because like Ben said costs have become prohibitive due to the government subsidizing everyones education, living expenses, beer money, etc...

    The best education you can get is from actually finding someone who does what you want to be doing and get on the job training.

    For accounting, marketing, and other subjects you can get a basics class at the local community college for dirt cheap ($73 a semester here per class)

    0Reply
  • James H.
    Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y

    Young people who live with their parents and go to in state universities have no excuse to owe 50-80K for a degree, especially when you can complete the first two years at a community college for less than 5K including books. It is pretty easy for most kids with a 3.5 or better GPA to get scholarships, too, if they are willing to go to universities that are not flagships.

    If you can't figure out how to make a college education benefit you based on the expenses that can be accured, you will probably not make a good entrepanuer either.

    'you know what they say, "those that can...DO and those that can't...TEACH"'

    70% of my professors had private industry experience and most of them consulted on the side.

    You cannot get OJT to be an engineer or become a CPA, a lawyer, a doctor, a nures or any other true professional occupation. Most jobs worth anything will require you have some sort of degree. Again, if you can't find a good use for a college degree, you are doing it wrong.

    1Reply
  • Shane Johnson
    Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    13y

    I agree with Ben. I am biased though. I am a college dropout who has been decently successful in a sales position the last 3 years, and with this company 6.5 years.

    College is great for people who are happy ladder climbing in the corporate world, or those who want to become a professional (doctor, lawyer etc). Yes I am sure one can pick up valuable, accounting, financial and economic knowledge in college, but I am unsure if it is worth the cost of tuition.
    As Ben stated - college makes employees. I do not want to be an employee. That is too slow lane for me. I am only an employee currently for the income, to create and initiate my entrepreneurial efforts (both business and real estate).

    A degree/schooling that I WOULD advocate right now is an associates RN program. The last girl I dated completed schooling in two years, and she worked as a CNA while in school. Health Partners paid for the majority of her schooling. She literally only paid maybe $2000-3000(if i recall right, maybe even less) out of pocket for schooling. She now makes approximately $42,000 a year only working 32 hours a week. If you work in ER, at night (shift differential) in certain hospitals I have no doubt a person could easily make $55-60,000+ a year fresh out of school. I am sure there are other tech degree examples like this as well in other industries. This is something I personally would recommend to someone with very little income, especially to use as a stepping stone for their entrepreneurial dreams.

    0Reply
  • James Vermillion
    Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I agree Brian Hoyt...too many kids just decide they are going to take college loans out instead of doing things the "hard way" and getting a job or starting at a community college or applying for every scholarship the are eligible for. What they find out a few years later though is that they may have accidentally chosen the real hard way!

    I got an ROTC scholarship out of High School and served for 4 years (while gaining valuable experience and great memories) in return for a full ride to college.

    0Reply
  • Xing Zhu
    Durham, NC · Member since 2012 · 498 posts · 48 votes
    13y

    A degree helps you to get an easier start, but only an easier start.

    My wife used to tell the students that she could only help them to get jobs on Wall Street. To make real money, they still had long way to go.

    0Reply
  • Shane Johnson
    Hudson, WI · Member since 2012 · 189 posts · 30 votes
    13y

    Very good points Brian - one problem is people go to college, piling up loans and put them to the back of their mind, expecting to land a job and pay them off later. Too ignorant to realize they wont be making a doctors salary to help do that, and how much that debt really adds up to be. Error number two is going to the big flagship universities (especially out of state!) all four years thinking they need that name on their degree and the big school experience, as they are too proud to suck it up, stay home with mom and dad and get the generals done as cheap as possible.

    Overall, the problem is, people are going to college that in my opinion are really not that smart, and have no clue what they really want to do or pursue. They lack common sense and independent thinking, following the crowd to college, and going through the motions, just to get the degree, because that is what they are programmed to believe is the best and right thing to do!
    In the end, the universities are a business, and they need to pull in as much tuition as they can.

    0Reply
  • Sorab G.
    Investor · Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2013 · 38 posts · 12 votes
    13y

    Wow, i seriously can't believe what i'm hearing. I agree with Jennifer, stay in school, learn to be proficient enough to talk with others, write and understand contracts and engage with the world. Without it you are not doing yourself justice. Earn the money to become an entrepreneur and start your own business, be it real estate or other. I agree that its possible to succeed without a degree, but the statistics don't lie. Expecting to succeed without a good foundation is what causes people to keep dreaming big but not making it.

    Yes, college is expensive but its a closer path to regular income than a regular job.

    Unless you have rich parents who will help you get a business out of high school, you have to earn your money the hard way, and that's typically through a job. So get a job, save money and succeed the way most of us did. By working hard.

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Jennifer Lee We are all intelligent people here – we know there are no absolutes in life, and this topic is no exception. There are a few professions that pay – sure. However, on balance college education is in a very serious bubble.

    When, following 9/11, the then-president Bush came out and encouraged us to “go spend”, the media was at his throat – how dare he…Well, what's going on now is worse. The government is inducing educational debt, which by the way has topped 1 trillion and is greater than total credit card debt in this country, with cheap loans. Here – take the money at 2% and go get a liberal arts degree of your favorite flavor. The intense intellectual dishonesty of all this is that we forget to teach kids that there are 5 professions if that that are worth going into debt for…We are enslaving kids to the banks and the feds – disgusting! We, as a society can do and have to do much

    0Reply
  • James Vermillion
    Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    If you haven't already, check out this related thread:

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/82884-is-a-degree-worth-it?page=1#p503503

    However, note that the subject of this conversation is on a full ride scholarship in an engineering program.

    0Reply
  • James H.
    Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y

    To clarify, I don't think college is the only way to go. I just think the notion that you will most likely owe 50K for something that is worthless or near worthless is not accurate.

    If you are going to accept a job that you don't need a college degree after you get a college degree, than no, you should not have gone to school.

    I suppose "employee" is a 4 letter word around here to a lot of folks, but I would need millions of dollars of assets to return what I make at my day job as an employee. In fact, considering my salary, health benefits and retirement benefits, it would probably take about 10MM.

    Can I make an equivelant salary in RE as I do at my dayjob without 10 MM in assetts? Yes I can. But that would require me to work. I already do that. I like RE investing partly because I am not compelled to do it. If I stopped being an "employee" I would still be a slave to whatever work I was doing. And I'd have to be pretty good at it to equal what I make working for someone else right now.

    I have a good job that allows some degree of freedom (I'm at work postiong this right now...) and I can work remotely in a pinch. So I don't see that big of a lifestyle difference between doing what I do and being self employed.

    0Reply
  • Curtis C.
    Denton, TX · Member since 2012 · 40 posts · 12 votes
    13y

    Ben Leybovich College Tuition rates have risen 400% that of inflation, it is definitely a bubble. More debt is held in tuition loans that consumer credit.

    My youngest got a degree in mechanical engineering and we paid for the full ride. He was hired straight out of school, but when the recession hit a few months after he was laid off. Since then he has had a hard time gaining meaningful employment. Mostly doing contract work where he can.

    If I was unable to pay tuition, knowing what I know now, im not sure I would have advised my son to take on that much debt. Even working through school and taking your core classes at a community college and not going to a flag ship school 30-40k in debt isnt uncommon.

    @Jennifer Lee, take a look at the statistics. A lot of law graduates are having a hard time gaining meaningful employment as well. And in the mean time strangled with debt.

    Even new nurse grads are having a hard time just read this story i found today on CNN

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/14/news/economy/nursing-jobs-new-grads/index.html?iid=F_Jump

    0Reply
  • Joseph M.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes
    13y

    I agree that the cost of college has skyrocketed. But as others mentioned many people don't consider community college for the first two years which can get costs by many thousands of dollars.

    For most people I wonder if that money would be better spent actually buying property. There are too many people that don't take school very seriously and just use it to party or a reason to get away from home .

    True not every degree will land you direct job that pays well...but money isn't the only thing in life.

    Do we really want a society where there are only doctors,engineers,scientists, etc? Even if we did it wouldn't be practical.

    The world would be boring without writers, artists, filmmakers, musicians, etc .

    2Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    I am a classically trained violinist at a top-5 conservatory in states. Columbus symphony has cut pay 4 time in 10 years. Minnesota musicians have been locked out for 6 months. Seattle symphony is getting ready to strike – again! The economics are not there for the arts.

    The 501 c 3 non-profit art sector was lobbied for and instituted by the likes of Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Mellon. They had the money to live like the nobility of Europe, but they didn’t want to pay pre-tax for it. Thus was born the nonprofit sector in the arts. Guess what – these guys are dead! People want a $300 pair of shoes but are not willing to spend $50 to listen to Beethoven. The question is not whether we want to be that kind of society – we are that society unfortunately. We’ve been trying to change this trend for years, but the society at large has decided that shoes, clothes, big-screen tv, big house, and a $4 dollar cup of coffee every morning is more important…Sad, but true

    3Reply
  • Joseph M.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes
    13y

    True I agree...just like people will spend $12 to see a movie , but not that same $12 to see a live performance or local band. Some people will , but not MOST people.

    But, even if you look in the past artist were never known for having big paychecks. How many people can fully support themselves being artists? It's quite rare and it seems most of them have to have a day job or side business to survive.

    I know there is a big push now by the government and others to get more people to study math and the sciences to be competitive with other countries .. I just wonder what we will lose in the future in terms or art and culture.

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Joseph M Point taken. There is only one problem - in addition to doing what we love, some of us would like to retire with dignity! Invest to make your money, then you can go do whatever makes your heart sing...Let me tell you from experiance. Playing music is a lot more fun when you don't need to rely on it to pay the bills...

    0Reply
  • Joseph M.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 732 votes
    13y

    Ben, I totally agree. It does make sense to do that. Real estate seems like one of the only ways to actually do that. Making enough to retire early or retire well.

    I think everybody's goal to be to retire early (although early can mean different things to different people)

    Just saw this article about the state of retirement in the US..some pretty scary stuff..

    "Unfortunately most Americans are ill-equipped for retirement and she estimates that 49 percent of middle-class workers will live on a food budget of less than $5 a day — poverty-like conditions."

    $5 a day? You can't even eat 1 meal at McDonald's for that amount.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/america-retirement-system-failing-us-economist-153445894.html

    0Reply
  • Morris Lucas
    Rental Property Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 256 posts · 64 votes
    13y

    Im sorry but college universities are a highly overrated and a trap for most!! I went to a 4 year college and even my advisor told me to leave, go to a community and come back to finish final semester. After i graduated, i made peanuts for years, then went and took a computer class and in one month, had my first IT gig, and have lived off that training for the last 10 years.....4 years vs 5 weeks of training and a few tech books...seriously! I recently went to my sister's graduation and seeing all those kids getting degrees in those ridiculous fields(marketing, business administration, sociology,) it made me feel sorry for them...they are competing with folks who have actual job experience and most of these kids probably don't even have ANY skills that an actual business would need to run.
    Shane hit it right on the money....we are training ourselves to just be sheep and "go off to college" just for the hell of it, why? Because that's what America does, it's a tradition..you almost feel like a loser if someone asks your parents what you are doing and you are not in school. Most have no get up and go or any kind of vision or real world expectation...I had a job with 20th Century Fox lined up when i graduated, and turned it down...complete idiot!
    Im all for college if you know exactly what you want....being a doctor, being an architect, city engineer, etc.
    The 30% or so that fall outside this category is literally throwing their money in the toilet. Yes, i did have great memories of college and it does prepare you to meet new culture of people and you learn certain ways of presentations, research information, etc....but to go 50k in debt for that is not worth it to me in the long run...there are medical nursing schools, automotive mechanic programs, barber/hair schools, culinary, etc. I'm sure you can have the same memories as well as learning structure from going to these types of schools....?

    0Reply
  • James H.
    Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ben Leybovich:
    Joseph M Point taken. There is only one problem - in addition to doing what we love, some of us would like to retire with dignity! Invest to make your money, then you can go do whatever makes your heart sing...Let me tell you from experiance. Playing music is a lot more fun when you don't need to rely on it to pay the bills...

    Ben Leybovich,

    Don't you find it a bit ironic that despite the fact that you dedicated a large part of your life to something with no real economic reward, and yet still have managed to create the life for yourself that you want, are of the discouraging attitude toward college?

    Do you regret the time you spent studying music? Has it not made your life more enriched along your current pursuits? Would you rather trade that knowledge, that being that you are, with a couple hundred thousand dollars?

    I guess my opinion is that if you are going to waste time in college, you may as well not go. College, for me, was literally a period of enlightenment. I know fist hand how different it is being a high school drop out with a GED and being a college graduate. Fortunately for me, my interests were in engineering. But technical studies withstanding, it was the literature and arts classes that really helped me to grow intellectually and that has allowed me to have a better quality of life, if only in my mind....

    1Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Brian Hoyt Absolutely no regrets – wasted emotion.

    I remember myself sitting on the hood of my 1978 maroon Dodge Diplomat as a high school senior talking to my best friend about what’s to come. He asked – what do you want. I said – to be comfortable. I told him that 50k-60k ought to do it, and I had every reason to believe that I would get there. I was, and still am when I want to be, pretty good on the fiddle. 2 problems:

    1. Very few musicians are privileged to make 60k/year. There are only a handful of orchestras in the US that pay well. Very cut throat…
    2. I figured out that if I am going to work hard for the next 30 years, I might as well be stinking rich at the end. Everyone works, but some people are able to stop when time comes, while for others that time never comes…think about this!
    I am a musician. I love music – it is not only what I am, but who I am in my soul. But, what the hell does this have to do with money? I want a better life for my family than that which I could provide through music. That’s all I am saying.

    1Reply
  • Mike McKinzie
    Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Getting a College Education is NOT a 'one size fits all' proposition. I have folks with a Bachelor's Degree fixing my Subway Sandwich or taking my order at Denny's all the time. And I have family and friends who never set foot in a college making a six figure PER MONTH income. To blanketly tell someone to "go to school" does a disservice to them. It would be like telling everyone they should be married or should have children or should go to church.

    I have a Bachelor's Degree and I can tell you with certainty that college CANNOT teach you about Real Estate. College can teach you about business, accounting, investment and even management, but the world of real estate does not lend itself to a classroom setting. Even the so called "guru's" cannot teach you about real estate. And although I have a Business Degree, I probably learned more about Real Estate in my PSYCHOLOGY class than I did in any BUSINESS class. Because when it comes down to it, we are NOT in the "Land Business," we are in the "People Business." The land just sits there, it is People who rent and buy the land.

    No college class is going to teach you how to deal with a late paying tenant, or how to deal with the City Inspector, or how to judge a prospective tenant beyond just the numbers, or how to deal with the DEA when they want to break into one of your units, etc...

    Having six children, I can give very specific examples, but let's just say that I have learned that college is NOT for everyone.

    0Reply
  • Rob K.
    Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I would just like to add that I think if you are going to spend the time and money in college, you should finish and get your degree. I know countless people who went to college, but didn't finish or, they got a useless degree (political science, poetry, social work, etc.) and now have a job that pays nothing or a job that they don't even use their degree for. Now, they are left with student loans.

    I agree with Dave Ramsey that you shouldn't get student loans under any circumstances. My wife is currently in college. She took as many classes at the community college as possible before transferring to a local university. We pay as we go. I know someone else with a ton of student loan debt for a useless degree that she doesn't use and now she's in school for nursing and taking on even more debt. I think it's stupid.

    I'm going to encourage both of my kids to go to college and I will pay for it in full. It will be a local in state college. I think the degrees from fancy colleges don't make much difference out in the world. I also only want to pay for their schooling if they get a worthwhile degree in a field that pays well. If they want degrees in social work, they can pay themselves.

    I will encourage them to be self employed no matter what they choose. Working for someone else for 30 years and making that person rich is foolish in my opinion.

    0Reply
  • Curtis C.
    Denton, TX · Member since 2012 · 40 posts · 12 votes
    13y

    Brian Hoyt

    You dont NEED school nowadays to become skilled in professions unless the profession requires specific knowledge or state regulations (e.g. Dr, lawyer, Dentist etc).

    There is so much wealth of information on the internet and books people with the drive and motivation can teach themselves just about anything. Want to become fluent in statistics with parametric and non parametric data models, done, want to become a skilled musician (like Ben Leybovich) done. The list goes on. One of my sons friends didn't go to college and taught himself java script and C++ with www.codecademy.com. He became fluent in the languages within a year and half, built a portfolio, and was hired shortly thereafter. There is an abundance of information and self teaching methods out there.

    The way information is shared nowadays is making the traditional college model obsolete. I will be happy when the bubble bursts, schools are forced to improve education or die out, and schooling becomes affordable for the average person once again or whatever replaces the modern day college institution.

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    My bartender has a master degree in animal sciences, she makes over 60K. She is well spoken, worldly and is personable enough. I can assure you she didn't get that way growing up on the farm in SW Missouri, she is an exception. What is the most obvious difference between her and others in that neck of the woods? She has a master's degree! I agree with Mike that RE is a social business. There are reasons that birds of a feather flock together.

    If you continue to hang with those you always hung with in high school, you're not advancing socially so much as going with the flow.
    Not being snobbish, it's just that if one has the chance to get into business with only peers, you're more likely to stay with peers. If you can't hang socially with wealthier, more educated and worldly folks than yourself, don't expect them to adopt you and bring you into the flock. College bridges those gaps, not for all, but for most. College is a social incubator!

    You are not doomed for failure in RE if you don't have a degree, but most that do are more successful than those that don't. You learn much more in college than the subjects you take and you mature quicker based on the expierences gained.

    Who on BP do you consider successful? Do they have a degree? 9 out of 10 do! What makes you think you're so special that you'll be the one?

    Some old guy telling you an advanced education is not needed to make it never competed with those you will be competing with in the next 20 or 30 years! If college grads are working at Subway, what does that tell you? Tells me competition is getting tough especially for those with less marketable degrees.

    Chances are, 10 years from now 70% who are here won't be, 20% may own properties but can't live off of them, 5% will struggle and 3% will be doing fine, 2% will be financially successful without worries. That's the way it has been for 30 years and it's not goint to get easier! IMO

    I'd hate to start again now and can't imagine doing so without college or a great technical skill. The economic gap is getting so wide that it won't be long that you will either be in a profession requiring a degree or you'll be in labor or scratching. You can't work at Subway and earn enough to live on and advance. You decide!

    1Reply
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