So... I got screwed on a real-estate deal

So... I got screwed on a real-estate deal

Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 10 votes

A while ago I began the process of buying a 3br 1 bath 1920s Tudor in a C-class neighborhood in Minneapolis.  Final sale price was $191k.  Actually, the price that we had originally agreed on was $182.5k, but the bank refused to finance it until the seller completed certain repairs, including mold abatement, and plumbing repairs.  My plan for the property was to fix it up (it has great builtin woodwork, but needed a new kitchen and bath) and turn it into a rental property.  I figured I could get maybe $1600-$1700/mo if I fixed it up, and the remodel would add a lot of value to the property.  Maybe it's not the greatest deal, but with the money I was planning to put down, it would have cash-flowed.  Now, the guy I was buying it from (it was agent-owned) is pretty slimy.  When we were dealing with him he was pretty rude and disrespectful to my agent, and after the bank refused financing and requested that repairs be made, he threw a fit, raised the price and demanded that I put down $15k earnest money (to pay for the repairs and "to show I'm a serious buyer").  Because I am a moron, I agreed to this, and once this was done, he seemed to make attempts to get us to breach contract and keep the earnest money by setting closing dates (which in hindsight I never should have agreed to) that we couldn't keep.  This resulted in some drama where I had to call the bank and tell them to submit the loan to underwriting for denial since they wouldn't have time to review everything and stick to the closing date that we had set in the purchase agreement.  Finally, he reluctantly agreed to push back the closing date and it looked like that we would be set.

In the meantime, two things were happening.  One was that I was having all sorts of problems with contractors.  The constantly changing closing dates (they had changed 3 times due to incompetence from the bank as well as the aforementioned repair issues) had caused me to cancel appointments that I had made with plumbers and handymen for repairs, and I was also having trouble getting any interest from general contractors to work on the kitchen and bath remodel that I had planned.  Of all the general contractors that I talked to, only two bothered to show up for an estimate, and neither of them got back to me.

The other thing that was going on was that the seller was (supposedly) making the repairs that the bank had insisted on.  One sticking point was the toilet in the upstairs bathroom, which was loose and leaking.  We signed an amendment to the PA stating that this would be inspected and repaired by a licensed plumber.  Before closing, my agent and I inspected everything, and it didn't appear to be leaking, so we went ahead and closed.  The next day, I went to the property and found a small waterfall had appeared from the kitchen ceiling, and the source of this enchanted spring was none other than the upstairs toilet.  I had a plumber look at it, and he had found that the flange and wax seal was completely shot.  Not only this, but the drain pipe was lead, and to keep up with code, it would need to be replaced, which would be an extremely intrusive fix.  Now, you might be asking yourself why the seller's plumber didn't find this, and the answer is that he never hired one.  I went over the receipts that the seller sent to us for the work that was done, and he only had a drain cleaner do any work on the plumbing, and that guy wasn't a licensed plumber.

I had an appointment with the property management company that I had scheduled to find me a renter for the place so I could at least tread water for a while until I got contractors squared away, but now I've had to cancel that, since basically, the property isn't livable without a functional bathroom.  Now, I'm back to square one, looking for contractors who aren't total sissies who will be willing to remodel a house in a not-so-nice neighborhood, and do it quick.

I'm pretty sure I don't have any legal resource due to caveat emptor and all that, but I would like to end this with a summary of some lessons that I've learned from this:

  •  When investing in a property that needs work, make sure that you have a good network of contractors established who can do the work, (or, you can do it yourself) and make sure you understand everything that needs to be done to the property.
  • Real-estate can be a slimy business, with slimy people, especially when dealing with distressed properties, or properties in bad neighborhoods.  Make sure you can deal with people like that, and if you're using an agent, that he or she can as well.
  •  Surround yourself with competent people, not just people you like or who are easy to deal with.  My agent is a nice lady, but I feel like she was out of her element with this, and my bank who I went through for really screwed the pooch, too (but that's a completely different story).
  • When investing in real-estate, do so from a position of financial strength.  This is going to suck for me, I'm probably going to lose thousands and thousands of dollars, but I'm pretty sure I'll be OK in the end.  Someone else less fortunate than I am in the same situation could find themselves in a lot of trouble, though.
  • Check every single thing in the purchase agreement that you signed, and make sure that it's been done.
  • Don't be afraid to walk away from a bad deal, even if it means losing a couple thousand dollars in earnest money and inspection fees.
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Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
6y
182k for a 3/1 in a C class neighborhood in Minneapolis?  is mnpls that expensive or was this a unique deal?
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  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    182k for a 3/1 in a C class neighborhood in Minneapolis?  is mnpls that expensive or was this a unique deal?
  • Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    And always reinspect if they were to do any repairs.  Sellers will go with cheap, not licensed people or just 'forget' to do some of the more expensive repairs.  Or ask to be present during the repairs.  If you can not find contractors, go to a local, family owned, non-big box hardware store and ask them if they can recommend anyone.  Often they have a list of folks to recommend in various categories.

  • Rental Property Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2020 · 11 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    That's tough man, I'm sorry. Hang in there

  • Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2018 · 189 posts · 107 votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl- That does suck I've got a lot of lessons learned from experiences for sure. If you haven't yet I would recommend talking with the property management company for contractors, if they are going to maintain the property long term they should have some pretty good contacts to get you hooked up. Feel free to reach out to me as well if I can help as all I have a list of contractors I work with as well. Best of luck and you'll come out ahead no worries.

  • Rental Property Investor · Fleming Island, FL · Member since 2019 · 85 posts · 104 votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl

    $191k for a 3/1 in a C class neighborhood in Minneapolis was your first mistake.

  • Adam TafelBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 585 posts · 399 votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl - sorry to hear about your experience, thanks for sharing. The increase in earnest money after lender work-orders is strange... it sounds like you've got some good perspective on the experience, and plumbers are generally cheaper than lawyers. Utilize BP forums and local investor FB groups for contractor references. 

    Upside Property Sales 4.9108 Reviews
  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Sounds par for the course. Not that unusual. I don't know as I'd recommend "it cash flows" as my investment criteria.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    I'm a broker and y'know what, you're right there are incompetents and slimy brokers.  Sometimes I've told clients I'm not an expert on some types of property.

    So I'm 100% on point with your takeaways.  I see far too many people that don't understand what they're getting into and depend on the kindness of strangers - Which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

    I'd count your costs as tuition, but you seem to be aware of what goes into deals, so you'll do OK from here on.

  • Real Estate Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 543 posts · 474 votes
    6y

    @Troy Albers Not necessarily. The Twin Cities market is expensive and demand far exceeds supply in the under $300k market.

  • Real Estate Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 543 posts · 474 votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl Feel free time contact me if you want some help finding subs to repair things. Happy to help if I can.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y

    Sorry to hear about your problems. I do agree with the seller wanting a larger deposit to do all the repairs.  He wouldn't have access to that money, but if I was the seller and did the repairs and the buyer bailed, I would be pissed.

    The other stuff-claiming repairs were done when they were is slimy.  As for working with contractors, you have good ones and bad ones.  Even the good ones have to occasionally reschedule as things come up.

  • Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl, as you noted, there are some good lessons learned and mistakes not to be repeated.  

    While I have never run into these exact issues, a couple things I do: never have the seller make the repairs, if possible.  Work with the bank to find a way that you can control process, contractors, etc and the seller pays for them with checks at closing, cut directly to your pre-arranged contractors.  

    When the seller does make repairs, be very specific in how and what needs done.  And clearly, as you learned double check everything.  If he didn't use a licensed plumber and that was specifically called out in the contract, he did not fulfill the contract and would need to either a) redo the repair with a licensed plumber, or b) you could walk away and get earnest back.

    And finally, as for contractors: welcome to the world of rehabs.  I have been amazed at how many contractors I have essentially been ready to hire: talked scope, did site visit, had bid, and all they needed to do was show up to start getting paid, and never show up.  Typically it starts with the first contact though.  Contractors, in my experience, are notorious for not answering their phone or returning calls.  Also, wanting draws even when they aren't due.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    "He wouldn't have access to that money, but if I was the seller and did the repairs and the buyer bailed, I would be pissed"


    Well, in order to be able to finance the property for ANY seller, you may need to do some repairs. If the appraiser saw a major CapEx problem (broker sewer line or hole size of an airplane in the roof), as a seller I think I'd be more prepared.

    I guess if the seller is taking a MAJOR discount for the repairs and noted that upfront with disclosure and a buyer came around for another bite, I'd be more inclined to say not than be pissed.

    Real estate is not worth being pissed about.  Much larger things to be upset about.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Darn, Freudian slip MEANT 

    BROKEN sewer line

  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl

    I don't know anything about your market, but $191k for a $16/1700 rental doesn't sound like a deal at all despite the issues. Depending on the ARV, I'd fix it up and sell it.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cambridge, UK · Member since 2020 · 203 posts · 95 votes
    6y

    Hi Chris, sorry to hear all these troubles but thank you for sharing. I wish you all the luck, keep us posted on what happens.

  • Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl

    And what’s the common thread in all these “it’s everyone else’s fault” statements...?

  • Member since 2020 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl Damn. Sorry it didn’t go great but thank you for sharing. A lot of great insight in the little things that I wouldn’t think about as a beginning investor.

  • Member since 2017 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    @Nicky Reader. That price does sound high!!! And you still have to do some rehab ....

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Everyone who sneezes at turnkey buyers and says they should "do it themselves" needs to read this post!

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl. Tough story thanks for sharing. Do any local property management companies offer rehab services?

    If they are going to get the business after they may be willing to take in the rehab. Lots of them have internal teams.

    Irish Jones Realty4.947 Reviews
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  • Wholesaler · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2020 · 13 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    Sorry to hear that man. But $1600-$1700/month on your property?? Exactly which C-class neighborhood is this in? My house is in North Minneapolis, and I think I'd be lucky to rent out this place for anything more than $1,300/month.

  • Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6y

    Sorry to hear about this tough experience, but good for you for both getting moving on a deal and even more importantly - learning from your mistakes. Keep doing deals and you will laugh about this in 10 years. This post will be very helpful for those that are just starting out. 

  • Member since 2019 · 46 posts · 19 votes
    6y

    @Chris Schadl thanks for highlighting all these ways we can get screwed. Sorry you had to go through all that trouble. Think about all the lessons you learned for the next property.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Schadl:

    A while ago I began the process of buying a 3br 1 bath 1920s Tudor in a C-class neighborhood in Minneapolis.  Final sale price was $191k.  Actually, the price that we had originally agreed on was $182.5k, but the bank refused to finance it until the seller completed certain repairs, including mold abatement, and plumbing repairs.  My plan for the property was to fix it up (it has great builtin woodwork, but needed a new kitchen and bath) and turn it into a rental property.  I figured I could get maybe $1600-$1700/mo if I fixed it up, and the remodel would add a lot of value to the property.  Maybe it's not the greatest deal, but with the money I was planning to put down, it would have cash-flowed.  Now, the guy I was buying it from (it was agent-owned) is pretty slimy.  When we were dealing with him he was pretty rude and disrespectful to my agent, and after the bank refused financing and requested that repairs be made, he threw a fit, raised the price and demanded that I put down $15k earnest money (to pay for the repairs and "to show I'm a serious buyer").  Because I am a moron, I agreed to this, and once this was done, he seemed to make attempts to get us to breach contract and keep the earnest money by setting closing dates (which in hindsight I never should have agreed to) that we couldn't keep.  This resulted in some drama where I had to call the bank and tell them to submit the loan to underwriting for denial since they wouldn't have time to review everything and stick to the closing date that we had set in the purchase agreement.  Finally, he reluctantly agreed to push back the closing date and it looked like that we would be set.

    In the meantime, two things were happening.  One was that I was having all sorts of problems with contractors.  The constantly changing closing dates (they had changed 3 times due to incompetence from the bank as well as the aforementioned repair issues) had caused me to cancel appointments that I had made with plumbers and handymen for repairs, and I was also having trouble getting any interest from general contractors to work on the kitchen and bath remodel that I had planned.  Of all the general contractors that I talked to, only two bothered to show up for an estimate, and neither of them got back to me.

    The other thing that was going on was that the seller was (supposedly) making the repairs that the bank had insisted on.  One sticking point was the toilet in the upstairs bathroom, which was loose and leaking.  We signed an amendment to the PA stating that this would be inspected and repaired by a licensed plumber.  Before closing, my agent and I inspected everything, and it didn't appear to be leaking, so we went ahead and closed.  The next day, I went to the property and found a small waterfall had appeared from the kitchen ceiling, and the source of this enchanted spring was none other than the upstairs toilet.  I had a plumber look at it, and he had found that the flange and wax seal was completely shot.  Not only this, but the drain pipe was lead, and to keep up with code, it would need to be replaced, which would be an extremely intrusive fix.  Now, you might be asking yourself why the seller's plumber didn't find this, and the answer is that he never hired one.  I went over the receipts that the seller sent to us for the work that was done, and he only had a drain cleaner do any work on the plumbing, and that guy wasn't a licensed plumber.

    I had an appointment with the property management company that I had scheduled to find me a renter for the place so I could at least tread water for a while until I got contractors squared away, but now I've had to cancel that, since basically, the property isn't livable without a functional bathroom.  Now, I'm back to square one, looking for contractors who aren't total sissies who will be willing to remodel a house in a not-so-nice neighborhood, and do it quick.

    I'm pretty sure I don't have any legal resource due to caveat emptor and all that, but I would like to end this with a summary of some lessons that I've learned from this:

    •  When investing in a property that needs work, make sure that you have a good network of contractors established who can do the work, (or, you can do it yourself) and make sure you understand everything that needs to be done to the property.
    • Real-estate can be a slimy business, with slimy people, especially when dealing with distressed properties, or properties in bad neighborhoods.  Make sure you can deal with people like that, and if you're using an agent, that he or she can as well.
    •  Surround yourself with competent people, not just people you like or who are easy to deal with.  My agent is a nice lady, but I feel like she was out of her element with this, and my bank who I went through for really screwed the pooch, too (but that's a completely different story).
    • When investing in real-estate, do so from a position of financial strength.  This is going to suck for me, I'm probably going to lose thousands and thousands of dollars, but I'm pretty sure I'll be OK in the end.  Someone else less fortunate than I am in the same situation could find themselves in a lot of trouble, though.
    • Check every single thing in the purchase agreement that you signed, and make sure that it's been done.
    • Don't be afraid to walk away from a bad deal, even if it means losing a couple thousand dollars in earnest money and inspection fees.

     Chris, I gotta say your takeaway is impressive, to say the least. Your ability to learn, absorb, and adapt is going to serve you very well. I have a feeling that you will never allow the same mistake twice. 

    A suggested step in any future acquisition is to get your own GC (team member GC) to do a walk-thru before putting ink to paper. Doesn't have to be a formal inspection, can be a 2nd showing with a "friend". Knowledge is power. 

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