The Real Reason Nobody Can Find Deals In 2020

The Real Reason Nobody Can Find Deals In 2020

Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 191 posts · 247 votes

50% of the new investors I talk to live somewhere that's not affordable as a rental market.

They want to invest but feel handcuffed by the high prices and competition around them.

I say "dude, you need to pick a new market and invest virtually!"

They are usually both surprised and excited...

To learn that they could have been investing all along.

For many people I talk to...

Picking the market is their very next step.

If this is true for you, this post is going to spell out exactly how to go about doing that.

I got started by investing in Nashville around 2014.

I knew nothing about picking markets.

I just happened to live there.

The properties I bought appreciated a huge amount over the years after I bought them.

But, Nashville quickly became too expensive to continue to invest in.

I had to branch out to a new market.

I picked a couple surrounding cities in TN, and bought a dozen or so properties in those markets.

But within a year or two, those areas became too expensive as well.

Then I went down into Huntsville, Alabama and got some deals done there. It seemed like the next rapidly appreciating market so I was excited to lock in some deals and create the opportunity for long term appreciation.

But very soon after I arrived, Huntsville became too expensive and competitive to find deals in. There were still deals to be had, but finding them was so hard it almost wasn’t worth the effort.

Investors still did deals in all of these markets, but they became “fix and flip” markets more so than “buy and hold markets”, because the numbers just didn’t work.

At this point I grew frustrated.

“How many times will I have to move to a new market?”

“As soon as I get set up with a good contractor and property manager, and learn a new area, it becomes too expensive to invest in!”

Then I questioned my strategy:

“Is looking for growth markets really the best thing to be doing right now, given the crazy inflated and competitive status of the market in 2020?”

I shared my frustration with my business coach, who, while not a full time RE investor, has some rentals in Tulsa, OK.

His reply was “You should look in Tulsa. Nobody is looking here. Maybe you’re just looking in the wrong areas!”

After researching Tulsa and seeing how many cheap houses are freely available there, I considered the idea of starting to buy houses in that market.

When I did that, an interesting feeling arose within me.

It was RELIEF.

By giving myself permission to NOT fight tooth and nail in the hot, growth markets…

I could remove all pressure of “finding a good deal”.

(Which, by the way, is everyone's biggest bottleneck fright now. They might think it’s financing, but that’s usually caused by a misunderstanding of all the ways you can invest in RE with little to no money. It’s your market, bro)

I realized that by insisting on investing in growth markets, I was actually shooting myself in the foot.

These markets have a narrow window of time where there is opportunity.

But, much like an exploding stock price, the value soon gets baked in and the opportunity is gone.

I didn’t ultimately settle on Tulsa, but picked a similar but smaller market, Little Rock, AR.

It’s not often talked about on Bigger Pockets, nor does it make many lists of the “Top 10 markets to invest in”.

But, I'm seeing deals on the MLS for 40K. I just got a deal from a wholesaler for 35K, the house is in good shape, rents for $700, and is across the street from new construction!

Is this real life?

(Better believe I made an offer on that one)

So what’s the difference between a market like Little Rock, and all the other markets out there?

One of the key differences is that the other markets are growing in population, while Little Rock is “flat”.

Meaning, the population has roughly stayed the same for quite some time.

This causes the average home price to stay the same as well. Since it’s not growing, the demand for houses has not outpaced the supply.

Another word used to refer to a market like this is a “linear” market, whereas other markets that have large swings in price are called “cyclical markets”.

Linear markets don’t go up much during a bull market, but they don’t go down much during a recession either.

But, it’s clear that investing in these markets is not an appreciation play. It’s a cashflow play.

Which, if you want real financial freedom, is all you should really be concerned with anyways.

Also, keep in mind that in addition to monthly cashflow you still get the benefits of:

1) debt paydown

2) depreciation, and

3) getting to pay todays debt with future dollars

(#3 can be confusing one. It basically means that, since the value of the dollar is always decreasing, it will be easier to pay a debt in the future than it is now. 50K won’t be as much money 20 years from now than it is now. Since many mortgages are fixed for 5-30 years, the person who holds the debt gets in an easier position to pay the debts off as the years go by)

Some will point to the markets I’ve mentioned as being “high crime”.

I just want to say that many of the good RE investing markets are riddled with crime. Memphis is simultaneously a very popular market to invest in, as well as one of the highest crime cities in the U.S.

I own multiple rentals in high crime cities and haven’t ever had a problem, because I bought them in the right zip codes/neighborhoods.

The key to success comes down to learning the market. Knowing which neighborhoods to invest in and which to stay out of.

Now, this post is not to get you to invest in any certain market, or to act like my markets are the best ones out there.

There are literally hundreds of qualified “linear markets” in the U.S., just waiting for you to come and buy houses in.

If you are open to the idea of considering a market like this, the question becomes:

“How do I go about finding and selecting a linear market?”

In Part 2 of this post next week, I’m going to highlight the specific “6 Pillars” that you should look for in your market if you want to find deals with ease, get positive cashflow, while also protecting yourself and making solid investing decisions.

Isn’t that the dream?

Let me know what questions you have, and I’ll see you for Part 2.

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Rental Property Investor · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2015 · 181 posts · 136 votes
5y

Markets aren't THAT inefficient--returns are basically going to be the same unless you have some serious insider knowledge(where is Amazon going to build their next HQ kind of knowledge).  You'll get paid in appreciation or cash flow or tenant class or asset risk.  A competent investor can make any of those work, just gotta know what you're looking at.  If you're interested, I can help you make some serious money in Huntsville, Alabama, a market you've written off as "too hot"

You're the guy with investments in tertiary markets spread around America.  Seems like a lot of hassle, and definitely not an application of any insider knowledge.  Instead, pick a market and invest in it.  Go hard.  Stop the looking for 2% deals or randomly choosing "$200/month in cashflow" as a goal that means anything.  Most people's definition of cashflow is different, and it should be measured as a percentage of asset value, not a fixed per month value.  Make efficiencies of scale happen in a single place, and you'll go far.

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  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2017 · 132 posts · 56 votes
    5y

    @Brian Ellwood Thank you for sharing. There is a lot of truth to that. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2015 · 181 posts · 136 votes
    5y

    Markets aren't THAT inefficient--returns are basically going to be the same unless you have some serious insider knowledge(where is Amazon going to build their next HQ kind of knowledge).  You'll get paid in appreciation or cash flow or tenant class or asset risk.  A competent investor can make any of those work, just gotta know what you're looking at.  If you're interested, I can help you make some serious money in Huntsville, Alabama, a market you've written off as "too hot"

    You're the guy with investments in tertiary markets spread around America.  Seems like a lot of hassle, and definitely not an application of any insider knowledge.  Instead, pick a market and invest in it.  Go hard.  Stop the looking for 2% deals or randomly choosing "$200/month in cashflow" as a goal that means anything.  Most people's definition of cashflow is different, and it should be measured as a percentage of asset value, not a fixed per month value.  Make efficiencies of scale happen in a single place, and you'll go far.

  • Member since 2020 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    There are deals everywhere and for everyone if you look hard. Buying properties is a lot harder than buying vacant land.

  • Rental Property Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    5y

    Thanks so much for sharing my husband and I are looking for our first deal and having a really hard time because of the market we are in Salem OR. This gives me a different ideas. So again thank you. Looking forward to your next part!

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y

    It will be interesting to compare the IRR going forward of your Arkansas properties to the others over time...you will have a front row seat. Both high and low GRM properties can be very profitable...and having both can be a good mix.

    Nashville has not slowed down; so, I imagine it appreciated after the market became "too expensive".

  • Member since 2020 · 26 posts · 16 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jessica Lonbeck:

    Thanks so much for sharing my husband and I are looking for our first deal and having a really hard time because of the market we are in Salem OR. This gives me a different ideas. So again thank you. Looking forward to your next part!

    I'm on the ocean an hour and a half West of you lol (I grew up in Keizer)

    Talk about expensive market. 

    I'm also looking Midwest and East to invest.

  • Rental Property Investor · Northwest Arkansas · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    From what I took out of that your hustle is separating you from the pack. We want a tough market as real estate investors for one reason when anything gets hard it creates less competition as much give up without seeing those immediate results from minimal effort. Keep it up

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Mike Dymski:

    It will be interesting to compare the IRR going forward of your Arkansas properties to the others over time...you will have a front row seat. Both high and low GRM properties can be very profitable...and having both can be a good mix.

    Nashville has not slowed down; so, I imagine it appreciated after the market became "too expensive".

    Mike,

    Agreed since these are long term holds to me IRR is far more important than day one cash flow.. And solid appreciation in a market creates wealth without having to scale to a massive amount of doors.. IE the 200.00 a month approach with no real appreciation.. Lots of debt lots of risk with no up side.. If i read this blog post the OP timing was key in nicely appreciating markets thats what i take from it.

  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    I like Tulsa as a city - green trees everywhere and has a more historical feel to it vs OKC. Not sure what the employment picture looks like there, other than a high concentration of Energy. Devon just bought WPX Energy and will be relocating the HQ to OKC, so a lot of those jobs will be gone. As most are aware, Energy sector has been getting hit hard for the last 5 years.

    Tulsa also has some very crime-ridden areas, so make sure you know where the decent spots are. Good luck in your journey!

    https://tulsaworld.com/busines...

    "The agreement leaves in flux what was to be WPX's new 11-story, 260,000-square-foot headquarters under construction at 222 N. Detroit Ave.

    In a letter to friends and neighbors, WPX said it will be exploring options to leverage the office in a way that benefits Greenwood and the Arts District.

    "There are a number of possibilities, all of which would be mere speculation at this point, including a sale of the building or leasing office space to other tenants," the letter read. "We’ve already received numerous unsolicited expressions of interest for leasing since the project began.""

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Brian Ellwood

    This was a great read for so many reasons. It was actually the headline in the feed that caught my eye, but then I smiled when Tulsa was mentioned. I’m a proud local boots on the ground guy here who is always ready to welcome investors to our market.

    You went all Elon Musk on me and picked another market though 😜

    In all seriousness I think it’s referring to read about the nationwide options. I’m not ready to do it yet, but, everything you outlined made that make more sense to consider in the future.

    And the cycle vs linear type of market etc... good stuff. I’ve known that as well for awhile - we have what I call markets inside of markets within Tulsa and within the state... so many factors go into that like employment base etc... less sexy frills and thrills but way more steadiness IMO than some of these roller coaster places I hear of.

    Thanks again for the great content, and the incidental shout out!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y

    I think I'd rather know my expensive and appreciating local market back and forth (including and especially inside information) than chase a random Midwest cf market and all its inefficiency and risk of being hosed. 

    By buying and selling solo, I can capture an additonal 12% of equity or expense reduction easily. 12% of a $40k house isnt worth the time. 12% of a median price home of $340k is worth learning for. Fewer deals, more equity capture and higher IRR. Happy random searching

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Victor S.

    I liked your breakdown in the cities differences.

    I like both cities, loved OKC for 8 years and will never forget that feeling of seeing a city really get redefined by the Thunder + an innovative overhaul in the urban core.... BUT as a non-hater of OKC in my disclaimer I was super bummed by that acquisition. It would have been a decent move in the employment base in Tulsa.

    IMO that is what we need more of to realllllllly grow. The growth in the general MSA vs city alone (1M VS 400k in population) is decent but has room for growth too.

  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Nate Sanow:

    @Victor S.

    I liked your breakdown in the cities differences.

    I like both cities, loved OKC for 8 years and will never forget that feeling of seeing a city really get redefined by the Thunder + an innovative overhaul in the urban core.... BUT as a non-hater of OKC in my disclaimer I was super bummed by that acquisition. It would have been a decent move in the employment base in Tulsa.

    IMO that is what we need more of to realllllllly grow. The growth in the general MSA vs city alone (1M VS 400k in population) is decent but has room for growth too.

    I have a few friends in Tulsa so visit every once in a while. Still need to check that new park of yours out!

    Not to side-track this too much, but what would you say are some of the bigger employers in Tulsa, other than Energy? I totally forgot about airlines when I was posting my first message (recall Tulsa has American Airlines?). Obviously, not the greatest of times for those either... 

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    "Let me know what questions you have, and I’ll see you for Part 2."

    What are you selling?

  • Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2020 · 471 posts · 462 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Nate Sanow:

    @Victor S.

    I liked your breakdown in the cities differences.

    I like both cities, loved OKC for 8 years and will never forget that feeling of seeing a city really get redefined by the Thunder + an innovative overhaul in the urban core.... BUT as a non-hater of OKC in my disclaimer I was super bummed by that acquisition. It would have been a decent move in the employment base in Tulsa.

    IMO that is what we need more of to realllllllly grow. The growth in the general MSA vs city alone (1M VS 400k in population) is decent but has room for growth too.

    I didn't know about that acquisition until reading this post, as an Oregonian I am pretty new to Oklahoma but have lived in OKC a total of 1.5 years. When I first visited Oklahoma I drove through Tulsa and really liked it, however circumstances have brought me to OKC. They are doing a lot in the city with the MAPS initiative and job growth incentives. The energy (oil and gas) industry does concern me a little and I wish both Tulsa and OKC would start investing in non-energy companies, hope to see some more tech move in. Hope Tulsa doesn't get hit too hard with this!

    Forrest

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Forrest Faulconer

    Welcome to Oklahoma. It won’t hurt the city, per se, it just also won’t help it. The article he shared had a good connection to a similar situation in the 80’s that worked out well over the long haul. I had previously read it and was interesting.

  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Forrest Faulconer:
    Originally posted by @Nate Sanow:

    @Victor S.

    I liked your breakdown in the cities differences.

    I like both cities, loved OKC for 8 years and will never forget that feeling of seeing a city really get redefined by the Thunder + an innovative overhaul in the urban core.... BUT as a non-hater of OKC in my disclaimer I was super bummed by that acquisition. It would have been a decent move in the employment base in Tulsa.

    IMO that is what we need more of to realllllllly grow. The growth in the general MSA vs city alone (1M VS 400k in population) is decent but has room for growth too.

    I didn't know about that acquisition until reading this post, as an Oregonian I am pretty new to Oklahoma but have lived in OKC a total of 1.5 years. When I first visited Oklahoma I drove through Tulsa and really liked it, however circumstances have brought me to OKC. They are doing a lot in the city with the MAPS initiative and job growth incentives. The energy (oil and gas) industry does concern me a little and I wish both Tulsa and OKC would start investing in non-energy companies, hope to see some more tech move in. Hope Tulsa doesn't get hit too hard with this!

    Forrest

    people usually have split opinions on maps, but what they did to lake stanley draper is simply amazing. started going there on walks almost every weekend now. 

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 975 votes
    5y

    I see Milwaukee as a similar market: you're not going to get massive appreciation but you will get cash flow! I have two C class SFH in Milwaukee and I'm about to add a third. They are in blue collar neighborhoods and cash flow well. Rent collection has largely been unaffected by COVID, according to my PM. The markets are there! They just aren't on top 10 lists, and they're probably not sexy!

    I'm in the get rich slow game, not the sexy, appreciating market game. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2020 · 471 posts · 462 votes
    5y

    Oh nice, we haven't been by there yet, but will check out, without much hiking nearby we are always happy to see parks and lakes being revitalized!

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    This 100% "Markets aren't THAT inefficient--returns are basically going to be the same unless you have some serious insider knowledge(where is Amazon going to build their next HQ kind of knowledge). You'll get paid in appreciation or cash flow or tenant class or asset risk."

    And a $700 rental that sounds awful. Cap/ex and issues would destroy profits. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2019 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    5y

    @Travis Kyle Turner yes it has been very hard we are looking for something to move in to. (Currently renting and need to be out by Jan) So currently investing out of state isn’t an option.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 826 posts · 810 votes
    5y

    @Brian Ellwood I agree with others who say less sophisticated investors misunderstand deal valuation if they are not using IRR calculations. Buy and hold investors need to run 10+ year discounted cash flow analysis.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    5y

    I’m surprised by the premise of this post, as I’m not having trouble finding deals in 2020, even here in Denver. I’m seeing flips, house hacks, small multifamily value adds, condos, even single family’s in up and coming areas that are making investors a lot of money here. In fact literally everyone I know who is investing in Denver is doing well. Every single person. Interest rates being as low as they are actually makes the numbers more appealing and lowers the barrier to entry compared to the previous several years. Like others have pointed out, an out of state rental that only rents for $700/mo does not sound appealing at all, even if it is only $40k to purchase. I know quite a few people personally who have gone down the cheap OOS road and it rarely works out well. They have almost all sold at a loss after a year or two when they realize the low rent just isn’t enough to cover expenses over time. “Cheap is expensive” is a real thing in my experience. I know some people pull it off but mostly the end result is any potential profit gets eaten up by bad tenants, worse management, higher than expected vacancy and capex. High risk, low return strategy when compared to a blue chip market like Denver in my opinion. But good luck! Hope it works out for you.

  • Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    2020 is the best year I've seen for a while for deals. I've got my guys out, and they are coming back with a good number of projects. 

  • Lee RipmaPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Prairie Village, KS · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Steve K.

    “Cheap is expensive” GOLD.

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